Strength In Dispute

For reasons known only to himself, Teddy Thin Skin has decided to make war on Richard Spencer. I tolerate Thin Skin and I think he whiffed badly on this one and I told him so. It’s not the end of the world. No one is right all the time and being wrong is an important part of getting it right. Fear of error just traps you in the darkness of ignorance, because you can never be sure. Call it Schrodinger’s Moron. The person who never tests his ideas is both wrong and right, until the superposition collapses into true or false.

VD posts a lot and is free with his opinions, most of which are sensible and worth your time to consider. Calling out Spencer as not a man of the Right is not without some justification. He has supported ideas that are traditionally not on the Right, but he is a provocateur, so he often stakes out controversial positions. Spencer went to Auburn and mocked the religion of college football. That’s like going to Mecca and setting up a BBQ joint. My guess is Spencer does not care a whit about college football. That’s the point.

Maybe that’s what Thin Skin was up to with his Richard Spencer meme, but it did not work. It happens. It is not the end of the world or the start of a great schism. The reason is schisms happen when movements are weak or failing. When they are strong and growing, internal debate and the occasional slap fight is healthy and cathartic. It is a form of self-policing. Sure, some feelings can get hurt when these things happen, especially in the age of social media, but as the saying goes, when elephants fight the grass gets hurt.

Thin Skin feels comfortable offering up a critique of Spencer, because he knows the wind is at our back. I can tell you that Spencer is perfectly fine with this sort of thing. Over drinks at AmRen, I told Spencer what I thought he was getting wrong and he was happy to listen and respond in kind. My guess is he looked at that pic VD created and laughed. The reason is Spencer also knows that the wind is at our back. A little jostling and sniping comes with winning. People are open to criticism when they think they are winning.

In case you are tempted to agree with the commenter at VD’s site, who wrote, “Spencer and the government-infiltrated neo-Nazis helped to poison the idea of the Alt-Right for the general public”, take a look at this poll from the Washington Post. The point of the poll was to generate some fake science for a fake news story critical of Trump. This is standard fair with the Prog media. They wave around a poll screaming “See? See? We’re right. Science says so! All hail science!” Argumentum ad verecundiam.

As is always the case, the poll reveals truths that our betters refuse to reveal. Imagine you are being quizzed by a pollster and they ask, “Have you read, heard seen anything about the protest in Charlottesville last weekend in which there were street fights and a woman was killed?” Unless you have never heard of it, you know the official narrative. If you answer in the affirmative, they follow that with a question about how Trump handled the aftermath of the incident. Unless you are dull, you know what they are asking and why.

That’s where things get interesting. Questions five and six ask the respondent their opinion of the alt-right. The endless hooting in the media, about how the alt-right, was supposed to demonize the name and the movement associated with it. Yet, 40% of the respondents gave no opinion as their answer. Surely, most of those answering know the right answer. The previous four questions were designed to tell you the right answer, just in case you are particularly dim. Yet 40% chose “no opinion” rather than the right answer.

This is a variation on the Bradley Effect. This is where white voters will tell pollsters that they intend to vote for the non-white, but then vote for the white candidate. The reason is public morality demands whites vote for a non-white, lest they be called racist, but private morality moves them to vote their skin. In the case of the alt-right, 40% of respondents are responding to the public bellowing from the Prog mullahs, but privately think the alt-right, at the minimum, deserves a fair hearing or may be worth supporting.

Another way of looking at those last two questions is that only blacks and self-loathing whites oppose the alt-right, in the general sense. There were 10% of respondents willing to publicly say they support the alt-right. That rolls up to 20 million people who now identify, to one degree or another, with this thing. They may not agree with every aspect and they may have only a vague idea what alt-right means, but they are willing to stand outside the legacy political labels and proclaim themselves as dissenters. That’s huge.

That’s what winning looks like in a cultural movement. First it is ignored, but eventually the people in charge take note. Their efforts to suppress the new thing paint them as reactionaries and increases public curiosity for the new thing.  What people are responding to is the vigorous debate and intellectual curiosity that now only exists in the Dissident Right. They are responding to the rejection of the prevailing moral framework. They may not be ready to take the red pill, but they are in the chair.

This bring us back to the VD – Spencer flap. The alt-right is, in fact, a subset of the Dissident Right. When the DR was just a loose collection of dissidents and weirdos, no one cared much about a general, overarching moral and political philosophy. As we enter the next phase, where all of these disparate groups are finding common cause, stitching it all together becomes more important. It’s why these purse fights will become more common, but should be welcomed. They are a sign of growing strength.

History may not be on our side, but biology is and that counts for everything.

80 thoughts on “Strength In Dispute

  1. Interesting Washington Post headline: “Black-clad Antifa members attack peaceful right-wing demonstrators in Berkeley”.

    The official mouthpiece of the other side has just admitted that Antifa is hurting their side, not helping it. Antifa is done.

    We are winning.

    • Now the Antifa crowd is talking about long term “Occupy Wall Street” style sit-ins in major cities.

      Because bashing people over the head worked out so well.

      Occupy was counterproductive for them, too.

      We are winning.

  2. More importantly we need to decide what missions and tasks are the most important…the way that the anti-white movement has grown is via propagandization of white youth in school…until we realize this we have little hope of success…and once we do understand this, we need to take steps to stop that flow of anti-white propaganda in school and get our own counter-propaganda into the minds of white youth…right now the alt right thought leaders are all competing for followers and not thinking about the long term missions and tasks that will ultimately lead to victory…that is because these alt right thought leaders are trying to make a living off of their thought leader status…and so they write and talk about things that will get them followers but will not necessarily help us win…

    • We could always try fixing our parenting. Ask your kids why one side of the story is taught in class and not the other. Give them the truth when they bring up history at home then ask them why they aren’t being told the truth. Use FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) to discredit the teacher. Your kids would rather believe the truth than a lie. Your relationship with your kids must be more important than any other relationship they have.

      I’ve had patriotic, well-meaning teachers in public school. I don’t have much experience with the SJW-types. The SJWs are having their way because no one pushes back.

      Freedom cannot be restored without fixing the family and faith.

  3. The is a tendency to focus narrowly on individual disagreements or problems because these appear to be the most easily solvable. The strategy behind this approach is persistent incremental advancement, and that is the standard model for modern movement-based change. We argue around the edges of this paradigm, but then remain oblivious to the systemic toxin that is doing the real damage.The essential dichotomy is . . . do you want to change government or replace it?

  4. This proving ground in thought warfare will temper the sword of intellect. What warriors left standing will cut through the lies and slit the financial arteries of the reptilian swamp.

  5. Biology on our side? In an ideological sense, yes, this is true. But reality doesn’t care about ideas. In cold Darwinian reality, we are losing the biological war to the hyperfecund Africans and Muslims…

  6. Spencer went to Auburn and mocked the religion of college football.

    Spencer’s performance at Auburn was the moment I became a fan.

  7. Joey Junger: “The internecine squabbles don’t interest me. That “forty percent” you’re talking about is where the fight is won or lost. The Chad and Mandy types who want to be left alone to raise their families and live in peace are looking around, and if the alt-right will let them live and breathe in peace, while the state and the left want to invade every aspect of their lives, they’re going to side with us.”

    I agree with Joey. I’m coming at this from maybe a little different perspective than Chad and Mandy, but with the same goal. I was born in the mid 1940s. While I was growing up, that desire “to be left alone to raise families and live in peace” was pretty close to reality. The ideal of the time was that people should be dealt with “regardless of race, creed, or national origin.” And that was largely realized in my home town.

    Of course, that was tempered by the fact that if anyone had said foreigners have an innate right to live here or collect welfare here, they would have been laughed out of town. And that was itself tempered, in those pre-Hart-Cellar days, by the ideal of being nice to foreigners we had chosen to admit.

    If those attitudes were embodied in today’s law and the execution of it, I’d say my side had won.

    When I was a young man, the ideal of freedom of speech extended to the ACLU defending the right of the American National Socialist Party to march in Skokie, Illinois in the seventies. Yes, I know about the origin and history of the ACLU and its corrosive effect. But that defense embodied the popular ideals of those times. Most people believed that the Nazis had a right to freedom of expression. (That includes me, then and now.) And there were no SJWs to pry them from their jobs if they said so. However, most people didn’t particularly want to be around the Nazis or listen to them. Neither do I. Neither do Chad and Mandy.

    I want those times back.

    Unlike many here, I think President Trump — if helped by more politicans like him in the future — is the biggest assist we could have to getting there. He campaigned, among other things, on equal laws and enforcement for all citizens. I think he will move us toward that. America first sounds better than the alternatives.

    Many here are condescending toward the President. But I think it’s impressive what he has accomplished so far, considering who he is fighting: Big Media, Big Education, Repubs Inc., Dems Inc., most of the House and Senate, the US Chamber of Commerce, the bureaucracy, and the Never-Trump cuckservatives.

    Here’s a relevant article:

    • “If those attitudes were embodied in today’s law and the execution of it, I’d say my side had won.”

      Hell, if those attitudes were embodied in the thinking of my neighbors, I’d think we were close to winning.

  8. “History may not be on our side, but biology is and that counts for everything”

    Almost. Demography is everything.

  9. For some strange reason when people go after Spencer they tend to get emotional and incoherent. It brings to mind the laughable piece by Katie McHugh, which amounted to little more than helicopter murders, fear-mongering and feminine hysterics ( In the case of Vox Day, the petty undertone is unfortunate because he was trying to raise some legitimate questions in his meme. Could he have done a better job framing his criticism? Of course, but it’s not the end of the world.

    To mention something positive about Vox Day and Spencer, both men have challenged my thinking and I have benefited from their perspective over the past few years. That said, should the Dissident Right truly grow and (in time) become a political force in its own right, there can be little doubt some of the leaders at the forefront today will eventually become caricatures of the past. Men with mature voices will continue to rise and gain influence, ideologies and opinions that are proven useless discarded and those who cling to them will fall by the wayside.

  10. Even by your standards a particularly strong post.

    Put me on team vox, Spencer seems a lightweight. He was on a mainstream news program before he blew up and the interviewer straight up asked him if he was a white nationalist and he blinked and equivocated. From that moment I’ve had no respect for him. From what I’ve seen in his year of notoriety he has not improved.

    He’s no leader.

    • Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Alternatively, find a better trustafarian dissident rightist with the connections of the Spencer family who can move in and take the helm.

  11. You know, I’m old enough to remember when “push polling” was one of the most disreputable tactics out there, used only by the scuzziest political campaigns. Now every poll is a push poll. They just can’t help themselves, can they? They could make a few simple changes to their approach and keep living the high life, but they’re going to blow themselves (and us) up, because they have to. It’s me nature, as the scorpion said to the frog.

  12. The wind is definitely at our backs now. I hate-read Tim Wise, and while he’s been silent for months (probably because he can’t believe white America has this much fight left in it) he finally has a new post-Charlotsville post saying, in essence, “Pick your side in the coming Civil War.” His posts used to get several hundred or even thousand facebook shares in a few hours (or days at the most). The needle is stuck at fourteen shares right now, despite the fact that one can’t get more orthodox than him. People are recognizing that the rhetorical is heating up into the physical, and Timmy not only won’t participate in a physical fight; he’ll run the other way. The weasels thought their victory was an inevitable historical process, but it’s starting to look like Obama’s legacy was written on flowing waters.

    • Look, we are winning this thing. The Left has nothing but a gang of amped up losers with bandannas over their faces and bats to swing. These losers don’t even have any targets. Thrashing Trump voters at campaign rallies didn’t go so well, there aren’t too many Nazi rallies to break up, and all they have left now is to throw urine filled bottles at the police.

      This thing is going to take care of itself. McConnell and Ryan are gonzo, the Dems have nothing but vitriol, and the cucks are on the run. Have a bit of faith in the average person. They may not be willing to hit the streets to fight, but they are with us. They get it. And if it comes to violence and the madness that comes with it, support will be there. The goal is not to start a fight, but to finish it.

  13. I don’t know anything more about Spencer than I do about Vox Day or Zman. I only know their internet personas. Never met any of them. I don’t know how they would react in a crisis. Don’t know if what I read is intelligence or wisdom. I didn’t agree with Vox, not because I don’t think LARPing as Nazis or Klan members is foolish, but because if you kick Nazis, Klansmen, and Skinheads out of your sandbox, you’ve alienated some of the people that would actually fight in the streets. I find that many of the Right and, now, Alt-Right prefer to talk rather than get their hands dirty. Unfortunately, the majority of middle aged to older conservatives with arsenals and survival gear often have too much to lose if the SHTF, so they do the rightist equivalent of virtue signaling. I think the younger element that encompasses the ex-communicated Nazis, et al, have NOTHING to lose, and that is a useful condition.

    When the Charlottesville media circus ran, I was angry listening to everyone on the right pontificate how “racists” and “White Supremacists” are beyond the pale of human behavior. If you ask them what they mean by these labels, they really can’t articulate it, but it seems to be pretty much, “I hate all races except Whites.” Then again, they don’t live around other races if they can avoid it and want America to be for White Americans. With, of course, some token quantities of blacks, hispanics, muslims, dot head Indians, and orientals, all of which act White. And not to exceed a certain limited percentage so they could ever gain control of the political apparatus. Plus, they have to assimilate. Talk like Americans, dress like Americans, be polite and quiet so that they will not upset the holy belief about “racism” and “White supremacism” that the right believes they hold. Which ignores the fact that NO ONE, least of all the holier-than-thou conservative “anti-racists”, ever migrates to countries that are run by non-Whites. Maybe to some of the Northeastern Asiatic countries, but guess what? Northeastern Asiatics don’t want anybody that is not Northeastern Asiatic. And no “anti-racist” conservative virtue signaler would ever move to a black or brown country. So, in spite of their self-righteous declarations, those that rave the loudest about “racism” are all hypocrites. Why? Because they believe that White societies are much better than non-White societies. I think that pretty much makes them “racists” and “White Supremacists”. At least, the left would see it this way.

    It seems to me that you don’t ostracize allies over what are basically “Philosophical” and “Religious” issues. But then, that’s just me.

  14. Attacking football at Auburn? Too scared to attack football at Ol’ Bear Bryant’s ALABAMA? What a wuss.

  15. Charlottesville was not exactly a disaster for Richard Spencer and the alt-right. Instead, it has emboldened the usual suspects to flaunt their enmity and malice in public, thereby calling attention to the threat which they embody. At times the evidence of their rottenness comes right to you, which means that the MSM filter has been circumvented.

    For example, less than two hours ago, at about 1:20 p.m. CDT, I had the opportunity to be reminded of the internationalists’ hopes by a large black male who surfaced at a Starbucks on the north side of Chicago. The black male was wearing a black t-shirt with an interesting command written in white upon its front.

    “Kill Whitey”, ordered the t-shirt in large, sloppy cursive letters.

    The black male was accompanied by a white male who appeared to be a boyfriend. When the black noticed that I had taken a picture of them, he asked if I got a good one. I told him to get lost at which point the black male offered to pose for a photograph. I now have a picture of an arrogant, grinnng black male with his arms outstretched to emphasize his demand to…

    “Kill Whitey”.

    Of course the black male couldn’t resist the urge to taunt me on his way out the door and up Wells St. where, I presume he continued the habit of not taking his own advice in public about killing “Whitey”.

    This Starbucks, located at the n.w. corner of N. Wells St. and W. North Ave., happily served both the black male and his white male companion, who should be safe from the former until they have an nasty quarrel.

  16. I agree with the 2Kevins, Spencer is toxic. He may very well be a really nice guy to have a few cocktails with at a conference, but he is a soft faced manchild who ruins everything he touches.
    I honestly believe he is David Duke 2.0, and he will play the same role the “Dr.” has for 30 years… a cartoon character trotted out by the media to smear anyone on the Dissident right dumb enough to be seen near him.
    He is certainly not a leader of men, and I don’t care if he “stands up for his people” in public, he obviously has a huge reservoir of cash protecting him from real world consequences,which is something most normies don’t have.

    • I don’t think Kevin gets to do the armchair quarterback thing anonymously from Canada given his predisposition to wax poetically about “what neoconservatism used to be like.” That’s far more suspicious to me than Spencer’s unfortunate heil-toast or Duke’s Norman Finklestein routine.

  17. Thank for this post. I don’t make directly critical comments at Vox both because it’s his blog and, like a particular post-grad prof I had, he’ll not merely dispute you but also malign/ban your sources. I have no particular dog in this hunt, and I’m definitely on the outside looking in – merely a reader and occasional commenter and donator when I can be. However, the whole thing has left a really bad taste in my mouth. As I just noted in a comment elsewhere, I’m supposed to hate Spencer and “swastika panties” for being ideologically confused? When more than half a dozen innocent White guys are in jail for merely defending themselves at Charlottesville, regardless of provocation?

    I support Whites who support Whites. Period. All else is extraneous and divisive and unnecessary until some sort of White future is assured.

    • i love how VD had this absolute rule about not talking to the media, which he promptly violated when the mood suited him. to me he is a pompous and silly person, dressed up in make believe and playing kiddie games all day.

  18. jockeying for position; must mean this thing is about to take off. who will be the new messiah to lead us out of slavery?

  19. My two cents. I’ve read Spencer’s stuff for seveal years. He’s not a Nazi. Calling someone a Nazi is just a slur anyway. It’s like calling people Communists who want affirmative action, race and sex quotas, hate crime laws, etc. Spencer’s thing is pan-European identity.

    The torch-light parade was a great piece of street theater. I don’t know who thought of it but it really was perfectly fine. It’s called owning the insult and it works. Dressing up in Nazi costumes or KKK hoods is not too bright unless you can do it ironically which, alas, the schlubs aren’t able to do.

    Spencer, on the other hand, does irony very well. If he exploits the fever dreams of the human rights fanatics so much the better. Apparently, the human rights god isn’t an enlightened white man but a beetle-faced, pregnant hermaphrodite. It’s shockingly ugly and incapable of thought. Spencer is able to project a superior image than club-wielding mobs of favela escapees attacking cars.

      • “You cannot use SWPL slang or concepts like “owning the insult” or irony against them.”

        Of course you can. Spencer’s “Party like it’s 1933” after Trump’s victory was hilarious.

        There’s a huge vein of bizarre contradiction in modern liberalism to mine.

        For instance, by tearing down monuments they’re doing exactly what the Nazi’s did when they suppressed modern art. Read up on the Entartete Kunst exhibitions of the 30s.

        • Yes, I know all that.

          My point is that it doesn’t work on them. They do not and cannot see the irony. Or, perhaps, they do and don’t care. You cannot use degenerate art against them, you cannot compare their actions with statues to the Taliban shelling the Buddhas or what have you. They cannot process such comparisons and/or will not. They will neither be swayed by them nor let anyone else think they have been swayed, nor lend such comparisons any validity.

          You cannot say the Salafi Muslims saw the Buddhas as evil symbols of the evil past before Islam, if anything to them far worse than some CSA generals. The left has less capacity to see into the head of a Salafi than I do. And they wouldn’t care.

          The point is that they are right and we are wrong and evil and all effort is aimed at expunging us. No ironic comparison will alter that in their heads or their media.

          Also, the Nazi imagery freaks out the squares. And that works to the left’s advantage, not the right. I remember when Nazi memorabilia could be collected, Nazis could be figures of comedy, and so on. And I have no genuine visceral reaction to it and think the current freakout is insane, a feature of a cartoon-based society far from the reality of history. Your average Joe and Jane Sixpack are freaked out by it for the reasons they have been told to be.

          The point of ‘owning the insult’ is to deny it to the enemy by weakening their idea of its power, and disarm it for the squares. You will never do either with Nazi symbols.

          The right imagery is the one that works.

          Sometimes I think Spencer is a false flag.

  20. Over on the My Posting Career forum there’s a thread called “Richard Spencer: Unmitigated Disaster”.

    Worth a read.

  21. Asian identity politics – Good.
    Black identity politics – Good. Black Power!
    Arab identity politics – Good.
    Hispanic identity politics – Good. La Raza!
    Indian identity politics (both dot and feather). Good.
    LGBT identity politics – Good. Pride!
    Muslim identity politics – Good. Muslim Brotherhood!
    Jewish identity politics – Good. Zionism!

    White identity politics – Racist! Sexist! Homophobe! Bannon! Putin! Nazi! Hitler! White Nationalist! Alt-right! Genocide! Hate! Bias! Richard Spencer! Hitler!!!!!

  22. No, Z Man I think you are very wrong here, and that the Two Kevins are quite right about Spencer and also Vox.

    Spencer, if he was not a government/Soros plant could not have done a better job. He got Bannon fired, finally, and another Bannon ally on trade fired. He got “normies” to associate any criticism of the poz as being, essentially Hitler. This is the view of **MANY** on the Alt-Right, that if we just make every White dude a slave, then … Hitler.

    Instead we’ll just have every White dude a slave.

    Trump’s kids are not going away. Neither are the fact this kids and grandkids are nearly all Jewish. The Hitler stuff alienates the ONE MAN YOU MUST NOT ALIENATE: Donald Trump.

    So naturally Spencer is all in on that stuff. And so too has been Vox Day on “the Jewish Question.” Hey great way to get Donald Trump on your side. Parenthetically imply you’d like to gas his grand-kids.

    Most of the non-thinkers, those on the Alt-Right who are NOT: Steve Sailer, Mencius Moldbug, John Derbyshire, Mark Steyn, Ann Coulter, etc. but exist to either get paid by Soros and the Feds or dream of a Fourth Reich or whatever where they can LARP Nazi for real, have been objective failures that have not only poisoned any influence with the Trump Administration but have triggered a widespread purge of any dissident figure WITH THE ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

    What can be done? A. NO NADA public demonstrations of any kind, since they’ll just be flooded with Nazi LARPers and repel normies. No, Alt Right delusionals, normies are not down with Hitler. B. Project FEAR, i.e. a counter-doxing takedown ala Wikileaks of every dirty, corrupt, illegal, and pozzed deal that the elite has, with special emphasis on the enforcers like the ex sister in law of Google founder Brin who runs Youtube and got Damore fired and is deplatforming anyone to the right of Pol Pot. [Susan something or other.] These people are pozzed up the wazoo and depend on the media covering their repellent debauchery from normies so make that public.

    Alex Navalny in Russia has been hitting Putin and Medvedev hard … on corruption — their lavish lifestyle while Russians struggle, and also cosseting Muslims in their midst who commit crimes with impunity (that bit makes his Western SJW folks squirm but brings down Putin and company). Navalny will never win but will weaken Putin considerably. Which should be our goal with our Poz Elite. We can’t win, but we can weaken them and survive.

    Which brings me to C. Mutual Support for White Men. There should be an informal network focused on mutual support for White man lacking money, fame, power, and family connections. The way there was a complete social structure for the Black Middle Class in Segregated America. In a time when White men are actively discriminated against and calls for our widespread firing are common (and will happen) we need an outside-the-lines social organization dedicated to sheer physical survival. That means mutual employment, favor-trading, and the like in a distributed fashion so that the government cannot find it to destroy it.

    Survival should be the only goal. As it is the only realistically achievable goal.

    • Too rambling. Couldn’t read. Get to the point.

      If your comment is half as long at the original post, you’ve gone on too long,

    • I don’t agree that Derbyshire or Sailer are either Soros/Fed lackeys or Nazi LARPers. Steyn still tries to make some cash and so does Coulter. Wouldn’t call anyone on that list a LARPer or any other kind of Nazi. Stop inflating definitions.

      OTOH, there’s some truth in all that. About the demonstrations, the Nazi symbology, and so on. All that stuff is non-starter. It’s use is unbelievably stupid. Makes my sympathetic to the idea Spencer is a false flag.

  23. Children! Children! No need to fight! You’re BOTH assholes!

    I agree with you, Z Man, in that a better description of us is ‘dissident right’ rather than Alt Right.

    I read Vox Day too. Every day. He is capable of spectacular social commentary. I agree with him far, far more than I disagree. My only problem with him is that he is intellectually dishonest. If you compromise his world view or opinion – in a case of something like vaccination, for example, he will
    -double down
    And – he will start displaying the characteristics of what he and his adherents call ‘the gamma male’. Now he’s trying to distance himself from the Alt Right saying he doesn’t take to movements and such – after having penned the ‘the 18 fundemental tenets of the Alt Right’ or whatever it was.

    The key to success, in my opinion, is to not lose our shit when the world doesn’t work the way we think it should or when someone disagrees with us – which, in my scholarly opinion, is one of your main strengths and his weaknesses. When our views don’t work, we need to look at our assumptions and understandings and re-evaluate. On the plus side, Vox has the courage to call a spade a spade, he isn’t afraid to mock or deride morons or slaughter their sacred cows that deserve it. He had the courage to do that in a political climate where guys that do such things get thrown to the wolves.

    Your dissident right needs to agree on what it wants and how to get there. I personally don’t think either Spencer or Vox are in a position to get you there from the sounds of it. I hope I’m wrong

    • Vulcanology will win in the end.

      Biology only ensures that cockroaches will ‘win’ in the end.

  24. I think VD is stuck between a rock and a hard place. He seems to support the actual alt-right but he still has all his friends and business relationships who are alt-lite at best.

    He is kinda like all those white guys who have Asian wives; they know the score but are stuck with old decisions.

    • So he’s virtue signaling then…? LOL LOL LOL.

      LMAO – it wouldn’t surprise me one iota, and it wouldn’t surprise me if he gets away with it either! 🙂

    • People in the .Alt Right commonly associate with .Alt Lite and normies. Its considered fine.

      The ideological purity demanded of some other groups is not part of the makeup of the loose organization which is a good thing as reduces the risk or purity spirals

  25. As far as I can tell, the Alt Right suffers from 2 main schisms which threaten to derail the entire movement:

    1. The Jewish Question.

    2. The Christianity Question

    In every Alt Right forum Ive ever witnessed, those two items always cause a major split that can’t be ignored for any length of time. I don’t have the answer.

    • I do.

      Take them off the table. Evaluate jews and Christians one at a time – if they’re honest and agreeable – accept them. If they are not – reject them as enemies.

      Easy. Why fight about shit like that?

      • Easy. Why fight about shit like that?


        Because they are such critical questions.

        If you can’t name the Jew, anything else you do will only confuse you.

        Second, if you remove Christianity, you are going to hafta replace it with something equal or greater than it. The argument is made that the farther away from the church white people moved, the weaker they became?

        • I don’t know what you mean by ‘name the jew’ … but as far as replacing or re-establishing Christianity – I would be happy to see a restoration of their morals, ethics and concept of public decency to start. What we need to understand is that wherever you have power and money, you inevitably have corruption – and all that is needed is the means to check it, and the will to attack and dispense with the perps.
          At least, that’s the way I see it. But whadda I know?

          • Yes.
            I personally have never had problems with Jews. I know people that become unhinged about them and that they’re destroying the world, but I am not one of them.
            I’m just spitballing here – but the reason we see so many Jews in prominent positions amongst the political left – might be due to the absolute lack of intellect over there. When you get a power base made of vibrants and ethnics with double digit IQ’s… the joos would naturally outclass them and rise to the top of their organizations. Perhaps the reason we don’t notice them on the political right (and they ARE around) – is that pretty much everyone over here, including OUR ethnics and vibrants – can walk, talk, chew bubble gum AND think at the same time?
            But again – whadda I know? I’m here to learn from you guys, not the other way around.

          • The problem, to me, is not Christianity or the lack of it, but a traitorous, atheistic Christianity. A seculariist, universalist alternative to the personal project towards perfection.

            Mankind cannot be perfected. We are all unique. I can only seek my own salvation.

            And thus, Alt-Right. Because differences matter. How to deal with that? I don’t know.

            But acknowledging that is the only truth.

        • I agree that Christianity is part of the social software that makes up the West.

          Point #4 of the 16 points of the .alt right

          The Alt Right believes Western civilization is the pinnacle of human achievement and supports its three foundational pillars: Christianity, the European nations, and the Graeco-Roman legacy.

          But let me say this, Europe is nearly post Christian in terms of being religious. What if it its simply past its time and no revival is to be had?

          There will still be Christians sure but what if it fades out especially in Europe without returning?

          Worse the less Christian nations for the most part tend to much higher White fertility levels

          What than?

          If/when the .alt right gets power they had better have a plan that doesn’t assume everyone is in church, especially in Europe

    • There is a further schism, a corollary of The Jewish Question, if you will, that is frequently raised by the racialist wing: The White Question; Who is white, with all of the attendant purity spirals that ultimately leave only Thor and his fair maiden Hilda standing on the bone piles. This question is ultimately at root of VD’s critique of the dress-up crowd. The optics are debatable as a marketing question, but understanding what the symbolism actually means to its bearers has real meaning as to whether you feel comfortable sitting in this big tent.
      I am loathe to sharing space with extremism of this nature. Not because I am adverse to hearing contrasting opinions or hard truths or ugly facts or what have you, but rather because I believe that these kinds of prepackaged ideological kits draw fickle partners. I have seen to many Lutheran Buddhist converts embrace the Kabbalah, only to declare themselves Muslim, but mind you, Sufis, of course…until next week. It’s a lifestyle package, and had they found first the Antifa franchise they may just as easily found themselves a fist-pumping anarchist. Young men like a good fight, and even more so when they get to be part of a team. Throwing Molotov cocktails is great. It’s even better when you believe it has meaning.

      • It really isn’t. Who is white is already defined by your enemies. You’re free to develop subdivisions outside of obvious ethnic ties, but only a subversive disputes that X is white while X is being hounded for their whiteness.

        The only exceptions to the rule are those who explicitly deny being white, which at the moment is just Ashkenazi Jews in the US and Europe.

        • I couldn’t agree more, and note that a blunt hammer will be used to define white, to the shock of those that have groveled to endear themselves to the dogs that they have unleashed. “I, personally, welcome our new thumb-brained crocodile overlords…”
          My point, though, is that I don’t trust much of the dress-up crowd to hold ranks, anymore than I trust in the convictions of the now ubiquitous 8 year old child clutching a political poster his mother has thrust into his hands.

    • I’m with Glen on this one. I seem to fall in line with the dissident or alt-right, but I am having trouble finding my place in such a thing. I find the “Jew” question and the “Christian” question, along with Nazi references, or who agrees or disagrees with each other, or whether Ann Coulter or Milo Whatshisname are attention whores, all so frustratingly counterproductive. Along with that is the frustration at seeing Antifa all dressed up with no place to go, as fascist public rallies are so…nonexistent, so any Trump voters or people to the right of Bernie Sanders are ginned up as Nazis.

      The thing is, I feel intensely aware of what the Left and the Establishment are trying to do to us, and I resist it with every fiber of my being. I feel like I am living in the equivalent of the Salem Witch Trials. I am not so interested in defining my own allies and enemies who share my disgust at all of this, but I darn well know that anyone that resists what is going on is more or less on my side. I’ll start from there.

      • Ironically, there seem to be quite a lot of people who express Alt-Right views, and they are people of all colors.

        I suspect some compromise or great discussion will have to be commenced. But for the moment, the Cathedral, the edifice of politics, power, and interests that compose our state, has to be opposed. We don’t even know if we can win that.

        Talking about the Jewish Question is of no more interest to that end than functionally.

        As for the Christian Question, I think that the Alt-Right is inherently a movement that accepts some Christian values, at least if we are placing it inside the larger Dissident or New Right. It is also an amorphous movement, intentionally so, and uncontrollable, decentralized. One is reminded of some religious traditions, although you can’t go too far with that.

        And, certainly, the Alt-Right must be opposed to the exercises of State power that result in things like the Holocaust and the Holodomor. Indeed, our first sin in the eyes of the universalist left might be considered to be our rejection of the doctrine that the future hopes of universalized Christianity can be made true by Leviathan (government) and man.

        • Usually, at work, when I find myself agreeing with an “alt-right” person, they’re Hindu or East Asian. I am the only alt-right white guy there. Remember that the media told us Rodrigo Duterte was the biggest threat to world peace before Trump won the election

        • Too much emphasis on the JQ plays right into the medias hands as well.

          The people at Charleston we almost certainly chanting YOU will not replace us, not Jews will not replace us” but antisemitism to some degree is an easy sell

          Amusingly the reason is its not more effective beyond its probably untrue is the Left is very anti Jewish these days and that dissonance leaves them ass out

          • No, they were saying, “Jews will not replace us,” and the Jewish Daily Forward wrote a response article saying, too late, we already have replaced you.
            Only white people are in the dark about what is occurring here, not the Jews.

        • This whole thread is weird. People attempting to redefine what is, or who is, a part of the Alt Right. A little late in the game for that, don’t you all think?
          I don’t even understand why people are quibbling about whether the Jewish Question is important, and then suggesting there’s any nuance about race?
          It’s a White Identitarian movement. Zero nuance.
          Anything else falls somewhere in the Alt-lite, I guess, amongst the Milos and Cernovitchs of the world. They promote that silly 1950’s, “Civic Nationalism,” that has worked, oh so well, in the ever browning America.

      • You don’t need to find your place in the whole thing. Movements like these are messy and outcomes are uncertain. Act according to your wisdom and conscience and leave the results to God.

        I see no reason to condemn Spencer since he is not a threat to anyone, least of all me. This is not the 1920s. The threat today is obvious to everyone on here. Condemn the threat, ignore things that are not a threat. Paging Baruch K…

      • I share some of those sentiments and reactions very strongly, not least the feeling of living through Salem.

        Up in my country, lacking Confederates, we’ve already moved onto the Washington/Jefferson phase, with attacks on our first prime minister Macdonald appearing out of the tall grass in the past few weeks. They were always out there, never this public.

  26. “That’s what winning looks like in a cultural movement. First it is ignored, but eventually the people in charge take note. Their efforts to suppress the new thing paint them as reactionaries and increases public curiosity for the new thing. What people are responding to is the vigorous debate and intellectual curiosity that now only exists in the Dissident Right. They are responding to the rejection of the prevailing moral framework. They may not be ready to take the red pill, but they are in the chair.”

    Which begs the question: between Beale, who appears to be attempting to suppress, and Spencer, who is the object of Beale’s attempted suppression, who is the “red pill?”

    Also, I’ve read from uncorroborated sources that Beale left the USA to reside in Italy. Can anybody provide corroboration or contrary evidence? I won’t fault him for it any more than I might fault weev, but I’d like to have my facts straight.

    • I’ll make this point again. If you put all of your energy into defining your enemies, that’s all you’ll have – enemies.

      VD does good work and he is on our side. He may not agree with everyone on everything, but I prefer not to condemn people for only agreeing with me 90% of the time. I think he is wrong on the Spencer stuff, but VD has never been afraid to be wrong. I admire that. It spurs debate, which is a good thing.

      • The internecine squabbles don’t interest me. That “forty percent” you’re talking about is where the fight is won or lost. The Chad and Mandy types who want to be left alone to raise their families and live in peace are looking around, and if the alt-right will let them live and breathe in peace, while the state and the left want to invade every aspect of their lives, they’re going to side with us. They have eyes, and can see who’s attacking the statues and who’s defending them. People not married to ideology, people with lives to live, will decide the outcome of this thing, not those who read Spengler (the best we can hope is that they read Buchanan).

        • It’s kinda fun to watch two leftist factions Duke it out (pardon the pun) at the street level and kinda sad at the same time when people get hurt or killed because they’ve been led to believe they are going to a picnic.

          Joey Junger, I think you’re right about Chad and Mandy. Not being married to ideology, they are probably clueless as they watch all of this but, along with millions like them, will decide the outcome nonetheless, coming down on the side of those who can actually deliver the good life.

      • Respectfully, I think you’re wrong.

        It is not like that this is the first time that the Right has attempted to push back against the Left. Salazar, Franco, the DVNP, Action Francaise, even the European Union v1.0 (Adenauer and Gaspari were strong anti-Leftists) all succumbed ultimately to the Left.

        One of the reasons why this is so–and notice I didn’t even mention the Natsocs or Fascists–is because the Right has failed to appreciate what it is up against and has been far too accommodating with regard to its allies. These accommodations have ultimately led to the Right’s demise in whatever arena it has fought.

        Spencer might be a nice guy, but I regard him as either a useful idiot for the Left or a plant. He may not be, but the results of his actions all point in that direction. They say that Alger Hiss was personally quite charming, despite being a Soviet Spy.

        The Right loses because it doesn’t know what it means to be Right, and in forming alliances it usually incorporates Leftist elements which ultimately undermine it.

        What we’re going through right now is a cultural power struggle between the different factions of the dissident Right. When Gottfried coined the term Alt-Right, he didn’t envisage the Spencerian movement. Spencer is pseudo-Right (from what I can see he is a soft socialist with a strong ethno-nationalistic bent). Socialists are not Right.

        He needs to be purged.

        • Excellent.

          Socialists are not right. Absolutely correct. From what I see of a lot of the “alt-right” , it’s chock full of people who have absolutely no clue about what being “right” or “conservative” actually is. They’re just pissed off that the left has gone full commie, is chock full of diversity – and/or they’ve been worshiping neocons,Israel – and the state for so long… that they’ll latch onto anything because the left has become so blatant about wanting to tear everything down.

          I see Zman bash libertarians here constantly. He must have been touched in a bad way by one at some point in his life – or (since I believe he lives in MA) , he’s been exposed to far too many lefties who have taken to calling themselves libertarians because they have done a similar thing to what I see many on the alt-right doing depending on their inherent political compass. I also live in MA – and have run across quite a few people who scream “I’m a libertarian” – and the proceed to spew leftist trash over and over again. I spend time on a local firearms forum – and I see this shit all the time.

          Neocons are not conservative. But for decades now most people who call themselves Republicans – have bought into their bullshit. So they have hence become utterly corrupt and without any compass to tell them whether they should take the right road – or the left road.

          After Charlottesville – the left went full bore on one of their usual tactics: painting the right as a bunch of Nazis. Luckily – I’ve seen an increasing frequency of commentary about how the Nazis were actually leftists. This recent article on LewRockwell makes the same point:

          This same article also makes an excellent statement about what the “right” truly is:


          The right stands for liberty, a free, unprejudiced form of thinking; a readiness to preserve traditional values (provided they are true values); a balanced view of the nature of man, seeing in him neither beast nor angel, insisting on the uniqueness of human beings which cannot be transformed into or treated as mere numbers or ciphers. The left is the advocate of the opposite principles; it is the enemy of diversity and the fanatical promoter of identity. Uniformity is stressed in all leftist utopias, paradises in which everybody is the same, envy is dead, and the enemy is either dead, lives outside the gates, or is utterly humiliated. Leftism loathes differences, deviations, stratifications…. The word “one” is its symbol: one language, one race, one class, one ideology, one ritual, one type of school, one law for everybody, one flag, one coat of arms, one centralized world state.


          If Spencer toys with socialism ( I don’t pay much attention to Spencer so I couldn’t comment) – he’s not of the right. And neither are any of the alt-righters who delve into leftist ideology.

          • The “NAZIs are leftists” meme that Dinesh D’Souza and others are trying to sell so hard is sort of silly. It’s up there with the “Democrats are the Real Racists”, or DR2 meme that the AltRight has savagely made fun of for a year now, pretty much ending it.

            DR2 is just an amusing way to cuck. Yes, we all know that circa 1960 the Democratic Party was the party of racial segregation in the south. But maps are not the territory, and the Dem Party of 1960 is not the Dem Party of 2017 (almost 60 years have passed, several generations by any reckoning).

            DR2 chooses to ignore the reality that whites in the South have migrated from the Dems to the GOP, and the “Solid South” is once again solid, but this time for Republicans. Racial voting is more polarized in the South than in the rest of the USA. Whites vote for the GOP because they are the White Party, not because they suddenly favor Mises view of economics where their grandparents favored Marx.

            That’s just silly and ridiculous, but yet that’s what the DR2ers claim. And that position has been deconstructed so thoroughly that when cucks like Lindsey offer it up, apropos some recent GOP “outgrage”, 10,000 twitter accounts snicker at him.

            D’Souza’s relentless NAZIs are the real Leftists is a similar sort of definition game.

            “The right stands for preserving traditional values, providing they are genuine values”. Funny how the right has failed to preserve any traditional values in the USA – were those values not “genuine”?

            Acceptance of homosexual behavior, gives way to accpetance of homosexual marriage and open military service gives way to homosexual civil rights to demand “bake me a cake”. Transexual “girls” in woman’s sports.

            There is no line that the cucked right has been able to defend with the DR2 narrative.

            The Nazis were obviously right-wing. Obviously. The right wing isn’t some Randian fairy tale: it has always meant supporting the existing Order and tradition over revolution and chaos. The right honors men in uniform, the military and the police. The right honors family and puts woman on a pedestal, not in a factory. The right supports the inherited god and religion of our fathers and the morality of our grandfathers. The right understands hierarchy and doesn’t require disassembling it because someone is disadvantaged by it. The right supports private association and not using the State to smash every other voluntary organization in society.

            The squish right with their absurd DR2, and “Liberals are the real Nazis” haven’t done enough clear thinking to support holding back anything, certainly not the hurricane flood of leftism, which is why the keep failing.

    • Yes, he resides in Italy and has for some time. Vox Day brings up some good points and some bad points, but in my book he has little standing in the US culture war battle since he abandoned ship years ago and apparently has no intent to return. He really has no skin in the game anymore.

        • Rubbish. It makes all the difference. Even the British Generals didn’t try to fight the Revolutionary War from the comfort of London.

          VD has no standing to attack Spencer precisely because while Spencer is risking arrest and prison here in the US, VD is living comfortably in Italy.

          • No, it really doesn’t. One is either right or wrong, skin in the game has ZERO bearing on that. This is just a way to DISQUALIFY!! someone because you don’t like what they’re saying. And for the record, Vox is right. Spencer is a leftist. He’s pro EU for cryin out loud, that’s one step short of being pro Soviet.

      • Vox Day is the movements philosopher which is a position is far more important than you might think.

        No one thus far has been better at it than him.

        Like all philosophers though he has ideological blinkers, his obsession with restoring Christendom is flawed and an inability to have a “what if the religion is past its time plan” is a critical flaw

        Christianity may be essential software to the West but it may also be crufty legacy code and especially for Europe we may need a patch that works without it,

        He can’t see this ,understandable given he is devout but its a serious issue.

        As for Richard Spencer, all he and his idiot cronies had to do is stop acting like costume Nazis in public. Its not hard . They couldn’t . They deserve banning from the .Alt Right for that breach of truce alone

        Also Spencer functionally isn’t that different than the people in charge , he’s just pro White and much less of a cultural Marxist . He’s just as much a globalist, interventionist and socialist as the people in charge

        We need more of that like herpes

        He’s a White Nationalist Lite Marcon or Merkel

  27. Thank you for your thoughts on this Zman. Another reminder to gather your own information and form your own thoughts and opinions, ISO parroting someone else’s ideas.

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