Conspiracy Theories

The TDS guys did a show with someone calling himself Ryan Dawson, who is something of a conspiracy theorist. That’s not entirely fair as he does not seem to be pushing a theory, as such, but more of a systematic skepticism of the prevailing narrative on issues like the Iraq War and 9/11. Questioning the official narrative is often lumped in with the conspiracy stuff, because all conspiracy theories start with the argument that the official truth is, in fact, a well orchestrated lie to cover up the real truth behind whatever.

Conspiracy theories, of course, are wildly popular, despite the fact most people swear they don’t believe in them. There’s a reason the people who make movies often use the conspiracy as a plot devise. Even the most skeptical people enjoy following the plot as the real power behind the scenes is revealed. Still, most people have been programmed to say they don’t believe in this stuff. You’re cast as a weirdo or a nutjob if you think the CIA killed JFK, for example. Yet, most people believe JFK was the victim of a conspiracy.

The funny thing about the conspiracy theory stuff is that the official narrative that spawns the conspiracy theory always relies on the same probabilistic flaws as the conspiracy that seeks to discredit it. For example, the official JFK story strikes most people as laughably implausible. Basically Oswald pulled off a one in a billion effort and then was killed by Jack Ruby, who also pulled of a one in a billion long shot. The theory the JFK was killed by Joe DiMaggio, who was a CIA sleeper agent, is really not that crazy in comparison.

Similarly, both halves of a conspiracy theory follow the same set of rhetorical rules, in that they don’t make the affirmative case. Instead, they rely on all other explanations being seen as less plausible. The people who think Mr. Coffee killed JFK and RFK don’t have a lot of evidence, but they can explain in detail why the official story is bogus. Of course, the people who think Oswald was the lone gunman don’t have a great argument either, so they rely on the fact that no one saw Joe DiMaggio in Dallas with Ted Cruz’s father.

The thing that makes conspiracy theories popular is not their amusing leaps of faith and logic, but that they satisfy our need to know. JFK was most likely not killed by Lee Harvey Oswald, at least Oswald did not act alone. Whoever helped him either got very lucky, which is always a possibility, or they were very good at covering their connections with Oswald. Either way, we’ll never know, because the people who investigated it were never able to solve the riddle. Some crimes go unsolved and as humans, we truly hate that.

Something similar will probably happen in time with 9/11. The neocons expertly used the event as a propaganda tool to get their war plans passed. We know guys like Richard Perle were scheming about remaking Mesopotamia for a long time. That does not mean, however, that the neocons pulled the 9/11 job. It means that the official story is mostly bullshit to cover-up gross incompetence and to promote the forever war. In time, people will stop believing the official story and most people will think 9/11 was a conspiracy.

Of course, just because the official version of events is nonsense, it does not mean there is a conspiracy. In the case of 9/11, gross incompetence is the most likely issue being covered up by the government. We see how this works with the current FBI scandal, where the DOJ and FBI are feverishly trying to hide the fact that senior people in both agencies were ham-handedly running a domestic spying ring. The same clowns running the Trump spying operation were the ones who bungled 9/11 and the aftermath.

There are actual conspiracies, of course. Just type the word “Itanimulli” into your favorite search engine. Then read the word backward. On a more serious side, the FBI was running a spying operation on the Trump campaign. The IRS did conspire to keep conservative groups from participating in the 2012 election.The Gulf of Tonkin incident was faked. Gamblers did fix the 1919 World Series. Whoever plotted the 9/11 terrorist attacks obviously pulled off one of the great conspiracies in modern history.

Logic suggests that there is a correlation between the public’s willingness to indulge in conspiracy theories and the degree of trust in the society. People in a high trust society that thinks their government is generally honest should be less inclined toward conspiracy theories than people in a low trust, high corruption society. On the other hand, there is some evidence that the more confident you are in your understanding of politics, the more likely you are to believe in conspiracy theories. Dunning-Kruger strikes again.

The funny thing about America, versus other countries, is our conspiracy theories always sound like a Hollywood script, thus they tend to the ridiculous. Americans are strangely naive about the reality of government power, for example, but willing to indulge is crackpot beliefs about corporations plotting to spike the water supply. Yet, the story of civilization is the story of people conspiring together to seize power, overthrow the king and advance their political agenda through stealth. Government is nothing but a conspiracy.

Finally, even the smartest people can be let down by their own bias. Greg Cochran is pretty sure the Soviets weaponized small pox against the German Army in the war, but this has been covered up for decades. His evidence is not conclusive, but he makes a pretty good case. The events during the war suggest something very strange happened and his answer would explain the data. It also means there has been a multi-generational conspiracy, involving multiple countries, to conceal this truth from the public.

On the other hand, he thinks the official Holocaust narrative is a precise telling of history and that the skeptics are succumbing to insane conspiracy theories. This despite the fact there are a lot of problems with the official narrative. It’s pretty reasonable to think that maybe there has been some exaggerations. If it is is possible to conceal the use of germ warfare, exaggerating the details of German war crimes as a propaganda weapon should be easy to accept. Social pressure and belief are powerful motivators.

That’s the thing with conspiracy theories. There really is no definition of what separates the conspiracy from the skeptical analysis or even genuine speculation. Wondering why the 9/11 hijackers went undetected, despite multiple warnings to the FBI containing very specific information is often called a conspiracy theory. On the other hand, Progressives are still certain that Bush lied about chemical weapons so that Dick Cheney’s friends at Haliburton could make tens of billions rebuilding Iraq after the war.

People will believe anything and doubt everything.

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ArtHouseForOurHouse
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ArtHouseForOurHouse

If you believe in JFK conspiracy theories, you’re an idiot. All else is detail.

John Smith
Member

Takes one to know one.

craig dudley
Guest

watch the zapruder film and then say it was oswald. if you know anything about ballistics that film will show you it was a conspiracy with more than one involved.

DeBeers Diamonds
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DeBeers Diamonds

The recent documents released add to suspicions that Oswald was a CIA asset at some point.

Fred90024
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Fred90024

The idiots are self identifying here.

Member

If you’ve been to the Book Depository / JFK assassination museum and stood in the window closest to where LHO was supposed to have shot, you’d realize it was an easy shot that required not one scintilla of conspiracy.

Now, maybe there was a conspiracy with folk other than LHO, but it is not necessary.

ArtHouseForOurHouse
Guest
ArtHouseForOurHouse

Any deer hunter in Texas – with the nerve to kill a man – could make that shot. I get shaky shooting a deer but I’ve made tougher shots.
Marine with a rifle? Yeah I think so.

Saml Adams
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Saml Adams

I’ve been on the ground and agree, not a difficult shot at all. The only variable was the Carcano rifle—those could be a crapshoot for accuracy—very good or very bad. But Oswald shot if before and thus knew. The 6.5 x 52 is a pretty soft recoil so holding target acquisition while cycling the bolt would not be hard. I regularly shoot an Enfield over iron sights and can hit within a 6 inch radius at 100 yards from a rested bench rapid fire.

Eric J
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Eric J

The Carcano is a very good, highly accurate rifle. It only got the legacy of being inaccurate due to the rifle being fired with the wrong caliber of ammunition, 0.265 instead of 0.268 caliber. Much like trying to do a tight grouping with your Enfield loaded with 0.302 caliber bullets. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=LcjKYBccoqs

rented mule
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rented mule

i know a great deal of firearms,ammunition,interior and exterior ballistics however I do not claim to be any type of expert. The “pristine bullet” to me, was problematic however this was explained to my complete satisfaction, see the PBS NOVA documentary. Also explained is the Zapruder film that seems to show that kennedy was struck from the front. as for 9-11 see the popular mechanics documentary explaining exactly why the towers came down as they did. Both of these examinations and programs were very well and will enable most people with any type of technical background or just plain common… Read more »

Member

Be kind.

Most have never visited the Book Depository to see what an easy shot it was and are talking out of their hindparts.

Yes, it was entirely do-able by LHO given his training and hardware and political inclinations. So, Ockham and his razor is on our side. But, there is still a possibility that more than LHO was involved if you bring Ockham’s butterknife to the debate.

Ryan
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Ryan

There was an eyewitness at the scene who described she heard a gunshot followed by another report that sounded much louder than the first. I think some point to evidence such as this to assume two shooters. Anyone who spends time at a range knows how the variation in intensity of gunfire can occur with only a few steps in one or another direction.

Joachim
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Joachim

It’s guys like you who laughed at Edison, the Wright Brothers, Buzz Fluhart…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yiYF4uFI8U

Next, you’ll doubt that George W detonated the levees during Katrina.

On a serious note, I vote for cynicism, of course, but also, and equally, for Occam’s Razor.

Spud Boy
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Spud Boy

“If you believe in JFK conspiracy theories, you’re an idiot. All else is detail.”

Correct. Watch the Zapruder film carefully. Between frames 312 and 313, JFK’s head moves violently forward, only taking 1/18 or 56 milliseconds to do so. Only a bullet could cause forward motion at that speed. The reward head motion after the shot occurs much more slowly, and is the result of a nerve reaction / contraction of JFK’s back muscles. Also, the giant plume of blood and tissue at the front of JFK’s head in Z313 is consistent with an exit wound. Case closed.

CAPT S
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CAPT S

Having worked in DC for 5 years and the Clinton WH for 2, I don’t believe bumbling government bureaucrats (to include most Presidents) are capable of keeping secrets or executing long-term, complicated, precision plans, the ingredients necessary for successful conspiracy. I do believe the conspiracies exist, but they’re probably more likely pulled together at Davos or other naturally secretive, esoteric organizations. But then I’m highly skeptical of how the 9/11 buildings came down, or TWA 800, etc. My bottom line belief is that there are conspirators who think America needs to be dismantled, and they use stooges of both parties… Read more »

Drake
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Drake

Incompetence and the inability of stupid people to keep their mouths shut is what makes me doubtful of most conspiracies. That and Occam’s Razor.

I believed in JFK conspiracies until I saw an actual reenactment of how Oswald would have shot him. He was closer to JFK than my front door is to the street. And the real kill-shot occurred when the car turned and was moving directly away from him. Literally a can’t miss shot with a rifle.

pyrrhus
Guest
pyrrhus

Which is why expert riflemen couldn’t duplicate the shots, even with good rifles, not $13 crap…Have you ever done any shooting with a rifle? The obvious assassin’s spot would be the grass knoll, which would be an easy shot, and there was testimony of such from dozens of witnesses, which was excluded by the Warren Commission, which was run by Allen Dulles, JFK’s enemy.

Drake
Guest
Drake

Like Oswald, I shot SharpShooter in Marine Boot Camp. With a lot of practice, I improved to expert the last few times I qualified. The shot was from 75 feet (not yards). For the last shot, the car was moving directly away from Oswald. it doesn’t get any easier. I know Jesse Ventura says he couldn’t make the shot, but I saw a decent reenactment on TV a few years ago. Using the exact same model rifle, same elevation, shooting at a target taking the same path, a guy made the last shot every time – because it’s an easy… Read more »

Member

Dude, I have been there. LHO chose a good spot for an easy shot.

I’ll put my bona fides against any:
1. Shot rifles since 10YO
2. Trained in .mil to shoot even more.
3. Been to the location.
4. Own and shoot several milsurp rifles of similar capability.

All this talk about an impossible shot or how the “grassy knoll” was a better spot is warmed over horse manure.

AverageFred
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AverageFred

Thank you for interjecting actual experience. I was 90% certain LHO was a patsy and the whole event was staged until I was in Dallas and went to the school book depository and museum. I spent an hour wandering around the site and examining the locations, then I went through the museum. The distances are much closer than people think; shockingly close. I believe that many experienced shooters could have made the shots. My entire perception of the incident changed after spending time on the ground. I walked away 90% certain LHO acted alone. Sometimes a determined nut changes history… Read more »

Saml Adams
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Saml Adams

The only real variable was the Carcano rifle. Italian manufacturing during the war was haphazard—those rifles can be very good or very bad. Oswald shot his before—he knew where it would hit and if it would do so consistently. The rest was pretty easy. I can group 6 inches at 100 yards over iron sights with a variety of rifles and consider myself an average shot—though been shooting since age 8

Wolf Barney
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Wolf Barney

I also like to apply Occam’s Razor to these issues. But sometimes, after accumulating and analyzing the evidence and information, the most likely explanation is the “crazy conspiracy.”

Drake
Guest
Drake

yes – That crazy shooting in Las Vegas last year. No way did that happen the way I’m supposed to believe.

areopagus
Member
areopagus

Like the Manhattan Project.

John Smith
Member

As a fairly competent rifleman I can tell you right now that Lee Harvey Oswald did not shoot JFK. Period. End of story. When the twin towers came down, it looked to me more like a controlled implosion than a structural collapse. No, burning jet fuel will not blow the temper out of structural steel, it literally takes forced draft air forges to reach those temperatures. But here is the problem I have with all this. Look at the goofs doing this stuff. Hillary Clinton and any number of her friends can’t even handle top secret documents or secure computer… Read more »

Tamaqua
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Tamaqua

First, LHO could have made the shots necessary. He qualified expert as a Marine rifleman, and as the Lincoln made the turn, the lead angle decreased as Kennedy moved directly away from LHO’s position-not right or left, which complicates the shot immensely. The range wasn’t excessive. People have easily made the same shot, with the same rifle. It’s not magic, it’s skill and training and practice. That being said, you’re entirely correct about government agencies being venal morons who can’t keep secrets that long before they’re inevitably exposed. (Incidentally, that also debunks the Great Bagel Conspiracy some are so fond… Read more »

George
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George

” He qualified expert as a Marine rifleman…”

– No, he qualified as “marksman” with a score of 191 in May of 1959. While I don’t know about “people having easily made the same shot”, I do know that Carlos Hathcock (founder of the Marine Corps sniper school) had visited the Texas School Book Depository, the site that Oswald is supposed to have made his famous shots from, and having examined the situation Hathcock went on record stating that HE could not have made that shot himself.

DeBeers Diamonds
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DeBeers Diamonds

The difficulty is usually in explaining how many shots Oswald is said to have fired. Was it three, four or five shots? The sound recording is disputed, the fifth shot is said by some to be an echo.

The establishment is not against conspiracies, John McCain accused various Chechen terror attacks in Russia as being “inside jobs”. Bush and Cheney framed Iraq for involvement in 9/11. Iraq is also alleged in the 93 bombing, and in Oklahoma City. I do suspect that Terry Nichols had some assistance from AQ during his Philippine visits.

DeBeers Diamonds
Guest
DeBeers Diamonds

This book here was written under sponsorship of the government. Producing an implausible theory that Saddam was cooperating with sworn enemy Iran to help McVeigh bomb OKC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Terrorist

DeBeers Diamonds
Guest
DeBeers Diamonds

The Las Vegas shooter’s life story has echoes of Terry Nichols from OKC.

http://peterlance.com/wordpress/?p=203

John Smith
Member

No he could not. Not with that rifle, and certainly not with a broken scope mount. I’ve shot against squaddies, I know what they can do and I can beat all but a handful of them on any given day. The man that shot JFK had practiced and rehearsed that shot until he could make it in his sleep. Moving targets are a can of worms most sqaddies are never trained for. To me this means resources and money – and lots of it to train the marksman that made the shot. This would not be the doing of a… Read more »

pyrrhus
Guest
pyrrhus

There was no real investigation, and much of the evidence was “lost”, including the bullet.Also, quite a number of witnesses were murdered…Since LBJ was probably in on it, and Allen Dulles, who had been fired by JFK, controlled the investigation, the whole thing was a whitewash.

Jaqship
Guest
Jaqship

pyrrhus, your comment on Dulles is getting to the core of this.

Guys like he, J. Edgar, etc. would’ve had the clout to have gotten things to go as they really went, both in Dallas, and after:
the Secret Service took the day off, and 2 days later, the Dallas PD (and the FBI) took the day off.
See e.g. http://vincepalamara.blogspot.com/2013/11/my-response-to-gerald-blaines-good.html .

Member

GF wrote:
“As a fairly competent rifleman I can tell you right now that Lee Harvey Oswald did not shoot JFK. Period. End of story.”

Bullshinola.

I’ve been there and seen the shot he would have to make. Not difficult at all, especially if LHO had shot his milsurp to zero it.

Member

Rooster knows what’s up. Why aren’t we taking his word for it? He’s a known guy around here. Why would he lie to us?

Guest
Guest
Guest

Zman, not sure what you have changed with the website but it appears thezman.com is being blocked by Centurylink. I had to work my way into this blog by the back door.

Member

I wish some people would do more debunking Hillary and Bill’s Russian Uranium deal cosnspiracy.

You don’t have to buy all of Dawsons’s conclusions to realize he has done a ton of research on Zionist underhanded and duplicitous history.

Just investigate Larry Silverstein and building seven. I will bury my tin foil hat forever after that. Give me something.

Al from da Nort
Guest
Al from da Nort

Z Man; I’d say the best evidence for an official conspiracy is self-righteous indignation at the mere suggestion that mistakes have been made. That plus refusing to hold anyone accountable. As you say, believing that people regularly lie to cover up their own bungling does not make one a conspiracy theory nut-job. It should be the default posture when preventable bad ‘stuff’ happens, yet for some reason it isn’t. Likewise, sociopaths in power routinely employ DARVA (deny, attack, reversing victim & attacker) by accusing people questioning them about their bungling of being insane conspiracy theory believers. That alone should be… Read more »

Member

You have obviously missed the fever swamp that is Pearl Harbor. The dismissed commanders and admission of mistakes was to cover FDR’s fiendish plan to involve us in WWII. He expertly tricked and goaded the Japanese into not only attacking us, but attacking Pearl Harbor in a sneak attack. I’ve read a couple of the conspiracy books and they are the standard piecing together of data points to arrive at dubious conclusions. About the only point that holds some water is that the US guaranteed a Japanese military response by withholding oil. I agree that FDR, et. al., knew that.… Read more »

Aldo
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Aldo

>BTW, I didn’t know we were required to sell oil to the Japanese

It’s part of a wider, New Left (I’m including libertarians here) and/or Pro-Axis revisionist narrative to recast Showa Japan as noble warrior victims of the White Devil/American Gubnit. The dastardly Roosevelt schemed to provoke innocent Japan into attacking Pearl Harbor so that he could nuke the Japan.

Al from da Nort
Guest
Al from da Nort

Chris; Agree with your 3 points. In addition/amplification there was the important role of enemy deception/mis-direction that also appears (or should appear) in the analysis of many other actual conspiracies by active, intelligent enemies. Specifically, once FDR cut off Japan’s petroleum supplies they had two choices: Capitulate (evidently the then-elite’s fantasy) or strike out and get it elsewhere by force. The obvious elsewhere source of vital petroleum was Brunei in SE Asia, a Dutch colony which the Dutch could not possibly defend, their homeland having been overrun by the German army a year before. It is unimaginable that FDR’s cabinet… Read more »

pyrrhus
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pyrrhus

A conspiracy is merely two or more people cooperating to accomplish something, but with an element of secrecy…Most things in life are the product of conspiracies, but unless those things are criminal, or we want to make them sound criminal, we don’t use the word “conspiracy.”

Chaotic Neutral
Guest
Chaotic Neutral

I have a feeling we are loooking at a record comment thread! Conspiracies exist. Grander conspiracies require a proportionate group of high iq, similarly motivated people. Kennedy po’ed several powerful coalitions: communists(bay of pigs and nam), the mob, and Zionists. Who is the brains behind all those operations? Or behind all human affairs perhaps… Does anyone here believe the moon landing was a hoax? I believe it was real, but am plagued by some doubts. More than that, I am intrigued by these recurring media hints that it wasn’t real. Here’s what I’ve accumulated: the rem song if you believe… Read more »

Member

Doubt no more on the moon landing. I watched it on tv as a child.

Doug
Guest
Doug

I have rules for such things: #1, There are no unrelated spontaneous innocent circumstantial isolated naturally occurring or originating events in America today. #2, The USC has never created one iota of Liberty or Freedoms. It is and has since it was ratified, an instrument of administrative centralism & regulatory tyranny. A veritable employee handbook for the Amerikan Nomenklaturer Class, a road map if you will for observation with no limits and controlling every facet of the sphere of the peoples lives. #3, The Fabian Socialists where right. For raw naked power to prevail over the audacity & motive power,… Read more »

Joe Fondren
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Joe Fondren

9/11, “gross incompetence”? For God’s sake man, get your head out of your ass and do some research.

Ersatz Naugahyde
Guest
Ersatz Naugahyde

Anything short of the absolute truth is a ‘conspiracy’.

Kodos
Guest
Kodos

I used to get a kick out of listening to Art Bell’s radio show back in the day, and from that I realize how readily we can be persuaded into conspiracy theories. I consider myself skeptical by nature, but if you spend say 3 hours listening to some guy who has accumulated all kinds of factoids to argue that the mafia had JFK killed because RFK was cracking down on them in spite of the mafia helping JFK win the election (an actual theory I heard on that show) it’s hard not to get swept away by the rhetoric. Somewhere… Read more »

JohnTyler
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JohnTyler

Just a few DAYS !!! before the USSR fell apart in 1989 (or was it 1990? ) the intelligence agencies of the USA were clueless as to the events about to unfold. This event was the most significant event in the last quarter of the 20th century and not one “intelligence” agency saw it coming. Is this because of incompetence within the agencies or just due to the fog of massive data flowing into the intelligence agencies that must be sorted out? Probably both, IMHO. In 2008, just a few short months before the worst financial/economic dislocation since the Great… Read more »

Member

Excellent take on the towers John. The highway overpass analogy works for me. But looking back of me I see commenters coming with pitchforks for you on this one.
( A building that I can feel the swaying is enough for me, too unnerving)

Tinfoil
Guest
Tinfoil

Okay, now explain the symmetrical, free fall speed collapse of Building 7. Even NIST couldn’t do that adequately.
https://www.nist.gov/pba/questions-and-answers-about-nist-wtc-7-investigation

Wolf Barney
Guest
Wolf Barney

Building 7, that’s the one that gets me. I’ve never heard a rational explanation how it fell like that. The most logical explanation is planned demolition, from what I can see.

Dtbb
Guest
Dtbb

From what I ‘ve read, can’t remember where, building 7 had a design flaw.

Member

How difficult is it to rig a planned demolition. My understanding is it’s quite an axtebsive process. That would mean lots of people both rigging it, and witnessing the operation.

Plus I always figured if rigging with explosives were the plan to blame terrorists than why bother with the planes at all? They could have just said terrorists blew up the towers with equal effect and much more simplicity. Heck, terrorists had attempted to bomb the WTC a few years earlier already.

Tinfoil
Guest
Tinfoil

And it was free fall.
https://youtu.be/Rkp-4sm5Ypc

Al from da Nort
Guest
Al from da Nort

John; Great post. Yet another example is that the three-letter-agencies were apparently completely surprised by Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait. Or at least the information didn’t get to the War Room in time for GHWB to issue a demarche that Saddam would likely have acceded to and stopped the invasion before it began. IOW, they missed ‘seeing’ the Iraqi buildup prior to the invasion. No place to hide those tanks, BMP’s, trucks, etc, in the desert. No way any of our satellites couldn’t have ‘seen’ them there. From what I was given to understand, once somebody actually looked at the images,… Read more »

Rod1963
Guest
Rod1963

Good write up.

Just add one thing concrete fails at about 700 degrees.

Dtbb
Guest
Dtbb

Uhm. The towers did not have.a concrete center core.

Member

When a crime is suspected the FBI investigates plane crashes.

Member

The only 9/11 conspiracy that holds any water in my world is that Bush covered up a large amount of involvement by the Saudi gov’t.

Beachcomber
Guest
Beachcomber

Re: Flight 800

My brother was an investigator (now retired) with the NTSB out of Dallas. We grew up on Long Island and I still lived there at the time the plane exploded. He had been in the reconstructed plane and agrees with the finding that it was not shot down. I’ve had no reason to distrust my brother’s assessment.

The NTSB doesn’t investigate criminal acts, or potentially criminal acts, hence the FBI. Navy divers retrieved the black box, I don’t know anything about them investigating.

DWEEZIL THE WEASEL
Guest
DWEEZIL THE WEASEL

One of the problems I saw with the JFK thing was the amount of Americans who refused to believe anything contrary to the “official” Warren Report. The reason for this is cultural. For decades, millions of my countrymen have been spoon-fed through our vaunted “Public Education System” and Hollywood propaganda, a squeaky-clean image of mom, apple pie, the flag, John Wayne, etc. They have been and still are, totally brainwashed and clueless. Now, along come a group of smart, well-educated, experienced, analytical people who are saying after much research: BACK THE TRUCK UP! What is the response? Accusations of treason,… Read more »

Al in Georgia
Guest
Al in Georgia

I heard it was the lone gunman.

Jack
Guest
Jack

ahhhh…JFK
K.I.S.S.
The Truth would have put a Presidential Security Agency out of Business.
Been a HUGE Propaganda Coup for every country hating us at the time.
A HUGE Embarressment for Said Agency and The Country.
The Conspiracy is The Coverup for The Agency.

Oh, Oswald was there,he shot…313 was a Accident.
The Bullet Don’t LIE

After all…If Smortinzaks Security Detail Accidently Kills him in Reponse to Gunfire..boy that would sure not go over well for Smortinzaks Security Detail or his Fellow Countrymen.

If the USAF Accidently Bombs the WH(even if no one is there), Do you Think you’ll get that Truth?

It really is Just That Simple.

Jaqship
Guest
Jaqship

Yeah, Jack, see my comment above, at 10:11 am.

The coverup was of SS, and Dallas PD / FBI, incompetence or deliberate laziness.
The way the SS left the barn door open, someone would’ve gotten it done, if LHO had chickened out.
Likewise with Ruby, he just managed to get to LHO before anyone else.

Jaqship
Guest
Jaqship

And, Jack, please clarify “313 was a Accident.”

Al from da Nort
Guest
Al from da Nort

Z Man; A correction re Cochran & Smallpox: He claims that the Soviets used *Tularemia* at Stalingrad, not Smallpox.* A pretty credible source for this claim is: https://www.amazon.com/Biohazard-Chilling-Largest-Biological-World–Told/dp/B00IBZ603M/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1474298329&sr=1-1&keywords=ken+alibek The discussion about Smallpox is that because vaccination stopped, there is increasing opportunity to use smallpox as a bioweapon as the vaccinated population dies off due to natural causes over time. Plus, the Russians have a history of creating (for sure) using (maybe), and stockpiling (for sure) insanely vast quantities of bioweapon agents, not to mention being notorious liars about such things. The author cited above was near the top of the… Read more »

Lorenzo
Guest
Lorenzo

I listened to some of the TDS guys’ podcast. It reminded me of how much better than average the Zman’s podcasts are. Vastly better.

Keep it going, Z.

Toddy Cat
Guest
Toddy Cat

The thing that leads to conspiracy theories is that everybody knows that at least “some” of the official story surrounding the JFK Assassination, 9/11, the Holocaust, etc. is lies, but no one knows exactly what. I have always personally believed that the main cover-up concerning 9/11 was the complicity of our Saudi “allies” in the attack, along with possible Israeli for-knowledge of the attack, and that the cover-up concerning JFK involved communist involvement, probably Castro, but who really knows? As for the Holocaust, demographic data indicates that, yeah, it happened, and killed about as many people as advertised, (probably around… Read more »

Member

Greg Cochran … thinks the official Holocaust narrative is a precise telling of history I doubt you know exactly what Cochran thinks about “the” official narrative — whatever that is. (Does wikipedia adequately replicate “the” narrative?) Have you asked him? What he says is that the narrative (of 6m Jews exterminated deliberately by the Nazis) is basically correct. Could the number be just 5m, not 6m? I’d guess he’d say sure, maybe. 7m? Sure, maybe. Censuses weren’t perfect. Certainly you won’t find him arguing for anything “precise” about it. What he argues is more like: we know from eyewitness testimony… Read more »

Member

Likewise, I think the characterization of Cochran’s position as a slavish adherence to some “official narrative” is false and intellectually dishonest. It was a similar case with Moldbug years ago, who really exploded a lot of heads at the time with his apparent sympathy and “it’s complicated” stance toward the Nazis, but the usual KM dork squad would still constantly shit up his comments because he refused to deny the actual facts. Good history – reliable history – is based on the convergence of evidence. Everybody ultimately has to make up their own mind on what they believe to be… Read more »

LineInTheSand
Guest
LineInTheSand

If the Nazis are merely accused of mass killing in a military campaign then they are not unique in any way. The USA has done that. The Soviets did that. The reason that the Nazis are branded “uniquely evil” is that they are charged with setting up camps for premeditated, mass industrial slaughter. This is clearly false. The people who died in the camps died because they were captives of a government that was losing a total war. With respect to the claims of intentional, mass industrial slaughter in camps, the H0locaust is a hoax.

Modin
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Modin

Hey there pol. Shouldn’t you be yelling about how Hitler had to have his armies rampage against Slavs?

FaCubeItches
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FaCubeItches

Given that it involved multiple hijackers acting in concert, 9/11 was, by definition, a conspiracy. It just wasn’t a governmental one.

Frank
Guest
Frank

I recently read a somewhat ridiculous study in some neural science mag that (among other things) said that Republicans (right wing) were more susceptible to believing in conspiracy theories, along with being more influenced by fake news, etc. No coincidence that right now, the truth of the conspiracy aimed at Trump is being exposed (small group, etc.). My note on their blog was curb stomped enthusiastically, of course, since if I believe there was ever a conspiracy about anything, I was a nut job. The fact is, that in government, as soon as someone in power says, we need to… Read more »

Babe Ruthless
Guest
Babe Ruthless

I’m with John Derbyshire on this one: most conspiracy theories are untrue. That includes JFK and 9-11. The “accepted” theories for both of them are more or less true. People believe conspiracy theories for the same reason people do a lot of stuff: vanity and a need to feel superior: “I know these deep, dark secrets that the simpleminded suckers don’t know; that makes me better than them.” Unfortunately, both of those event have real significance, which the conspiracy nonsense obscures. In the JFK shooting, the important thing is the psychology of Oswald. It shows the intellectual “virus” of communism.… Read more »

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

Yes, right here. Babe Ruthless. These events are basically true with some false (and useful to TPTB) elements wrapped around them. Those guys flew the planes into the buildings and they came down. They got the idea from desktop flight simulator video games, because once you take off and land a couple of times, the next thing you do is crash your pixel-plane into something. Doesn’t explain WTC7 or the possible/likely elements of willful blindness on many levels that allowed it to happen. The narrative didn’t need the big towers to fall, but for some reason, WTC7 had to go.

Tinfoil
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Tinfoil

I think Babe has the psychology wrong. There is very little appeal to vanity in supporting an unpopular conspiracy theory. To the contrary, it’s unpleasant to be ridiculed, dismissed as an idiot and accused of moral turpitude. The same doubt that prompts someone to investigate a conspiracy theory can also work to make one doubt oneself. I don’t understand why people would be okay with their government lying about something of that magnitude. If they’re lying about one aspect of the event, how do you know they’re not lying about other particulars? Since we are still at war because of… Read more »

Toddy Cat
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Toddy Cat

I’m certainly not a 9/11 Truther, but I gotta admit, WTC 7 was weird…

Wolf Barney
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Wolf Barney

Babe Ruthless, I disagree with your theory about why people believe conspiracy theories. Maybe it’s true for some, but I believe most are independent thinkers, with a drive to find out the truth, and know that the mainstream news and our overlords lie quite often.

I think it’s more interesting to examine the psychology of those that believe the official narrative of these events. That’s more crazy than asking questions about things that don’t seem to add up. Like Building 7, for example.

TomA
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TomA

The proclivity to believe in speculative causation is innate, and it exists because it helped our ancient ancestors survive in a world of enormous unknowns and routine existential threat. Before entering a dark cave, it was best to assume a mortal threat may lurk there, even if your theory of the threat may be wildly inaccurate. And while most of government’s inefficiency is due to incompetence, corruption also accounts of a lion’s share, and outright criminality is growing in popularity.

Dutch
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Dutch

People need to place events into a narrative, be it the “official” one or a “conspiracy” one. Narratives are how we make sense of the world. Reality is much more random and noisy than most narratives allow for.

TomA
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TomA

Agreed, but that is a relatively new phenomenon relative to our evolutionary history and essentially is an adaption to civilization and modern urban-centered life. Our innate biases are typically very ancient and much more difficult to override with force of will. The “narrative” is powerful because we are morphing into herd animals.

Georgiaboy61
Guest
Georgiaboy61

“Conspiracy theories” exist in abundance, only they aren’t called that most of the time, namely false-flag operations, influence operations and other psychological warfare, etc. These are what the intelligence community call some of their various methods. Those of you who can’t imagine Hillary Clinton or the like getting away with a conspiracy because of arrogance, incompetence and an inability to shut one’s mouth, are looking in the wrong place. Elected officials aren’t the ones doing these ops – they’re done (if they’re done) by deniable people and organizations deep inside the government or – if in the private sector –… Read more »

TheInsolentOne
Guest
TheInsolentOne

The term ‘conspiracy theory’ was specifically devised to denigrate the doubters of the Warren Commission’s findings. So yes, unfathomable corruption occurs under these oppressive systems on a daily basis, but the normies must rationalize otherwise. When your ‘representative’ government and media is controlled to such a degree, anything is on the menu.

lew
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lew

As someone who has looked at the evidence in Achitects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth and a dozen or so of the other major documentaries and read half a dozen of the books by serious researchers, I state plainly that nobody can encompass the evidence and have any doubt at all : 9/11 was an inside operation with on-site operations by the Mossad and coordination from the CIA. Also probably Cheney in the White House via the Continuity of Government comm net, but that is about the only doubt possible. There is no possibility of doubt about the explosives, 4… Read more »

TheInsolentOne
Guest
TheInsolentOne

IMHO Oklahoma City was the most outrageous false flag operation in the history of this country. They were beyond sloppy, from being caught wiring the columns with C-4 to the coverup aftermath with the Terrence Yeakey and Kenneth Trentadue murders. They still haven’t releases the security camera footage across the street, showing who departed the Ryder truck with Timothy McVeigh.

Member

A non relevant thought just jumped into my head. Anybody heard from Tiny Duck, Trent Denton etc. I’m worried.

Tony Dark
Guest
Tony Dark

9/11 happened because white people needed a new Pearl Harbor in order to sacrifice black bodies in the Middle East fighting the enemies of the ((( ))). That’s why America and white women are going black and won’t look back.

PawPaw
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PawPaw

Oh thanks, David. Now see what you’ve done.

A.B. Prosper
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A.B. Prosper

You don’t need to believe in conspiracies, conspiracies believe in you. In any case the US was founded by conspirators conspiring on a conspiracy , that is a bunch of guys meeting up to decide to rebel; against their Sovereign Its seditious conspiracy and a capital offense at the time, rightly so, There are also plenty of other publicly documented conspiracies out there, the USG experimenting on citizens for example. And sure there are outré ones, the E.T. one and more sketchy ones, the JFK ones, conspiracies are commonplace and ancient Adam Smith People of the same trade seldom meet… Read more »

BestGuest
Guest
BestGuest

I’m trying to comment. But the new system won’t let me. This is a test.

Member

Zman: “The thing that makes conspiracy theories popular is not their amusing leaps of faith and logic, but that they satisfy our need to know.”

Yes, it’s the need to know, but further, it’s the need to “know” what others don’t. Conspiracy theories flatter the ego of certain types of men.

Having read the comments I’d also just like to say that many of you are freakin wacko.

Rod1963
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Rod1963

I don’t if it’s the old “I know something you don’t” or perhaps it’s a result of having ones world view shattered as a number of people had on 9/11, then went bonkers. They simply could not conceive of the government as anything but all knowing, perfect and all powerful. Then comes along a son of a construction contractor who recruited a bunch of middle-class Muslims who hated the West to kick us in the nuts. These are the same people who also end up supporting jihadists in the U.S. and Europe since they believe they are totally innocent in… Read more »

Tinfoil
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Tinfoil

We don’t want exclusive knowledge so we can feel superior. We keep trying to share.

Member

I tend to accept the standard narratives. They’re never less plausible than the conspiracy theories. Sure, there are always loose ends and things that don’t seem to fit. That is the case in all complex events in the real world. It’s not the case with conspiracy theories, because the theorists don’t include loose ends or inconsistencies.

Fini
Guest
Fini

Unless you believe in a miracle of Allah, it is less plausible that normal office fires brought Building 7 straight down into its own footprint at free fall speed than that it was destroyed by controlled demolition. Buildings do not fall LIKE THAT unless all the core columns fail simultaneously. This is not conspiracy theory. It’s science. Deal with it.
https://www.ae911truth.org/evidence/technical-articles/articles-by-ae911truth/101-free-fall-and-building-7-on-9-11

Karl Keefer
Guest
Karl Keefer

If you deploy to the Korean penninsula on orders as .mil/contractor/some civilians, you will be smallpox vaccinated. “Smallpox is one of the biological agents determined by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) to pose the greatest potential threat of adverse impact on public health and medical systems. Col. Kanatjan Alibekov, First Deputy Chief of the Soviet Union’s offensive biological weapons program, stated that after smallpox was eradicated, and vaccination ended, the virus had the potential to be the most powerful and effective weapon ever created. Other biological agents in this category are anthrax, plague, botulism, tularemia, and viral… Read more »

Member

My theory is that Zman is 5 different guys. How does one guy work a job and have time to put out top grade material every day and not repeat himself in any obvious or boring way? He may be the point man, but there has to be others. Z is the Lee Harvey Oswald of blogging. Prove me wrong.

Woke
Guest
Woke

That’s ridiculous, Frip, you poor deluded sheeple. I suppose you believe everything Zman tells you.The evidence points to a bot. Prove me wrong.

Member

People conspire all the time. Put three people in a room and you’ll have four conspiracies going on in a matter of minutes.

Rabbi High Comma
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Rabbi High Comma

AndyRooneyPosting

Alien
Guest
Alien

…..conspiracy as a plot devise.

Do you use auto correct or was this done manually?

sparky shatstorm
Guest
sparky shatstorm

When you understand that Jerusalem or Tel Aviv (take your pick) is the capital of FUSA then “conspiracy theories” don’t seem so far fetched… read’em an weep, suckas

TheInsolentOne
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TheInsolentOne

Conspiracy theories are a form of rationalization to make one feel ‘superior’? Not really. It’s more that the one eyed man is king in the land of the blind.

Your fellow human beings allow the conspiracies to continue by being both ignorant and gullible.

Dennis
Guest
Dennis

“The temp for melting the steel in the WTC has to be 1000 degrees.” “No, burning jet fuel will not blow the temper out of structural steel, it literally takes forced draft air forges to reach those temperatures.” I cast a lot of bullets and use a simple open cast iron pot on a propane grill to melt the alloy (lead wheelweights, typically). Those require 600 degrees to melt and my pot usually varies between 600 and 750 degrees. I have also done it on an outdoor grill using white gas.Easy-peasy to get those temps out of an energy dense… Read more »

sirlancelot
Guest
sirlancelot

Epic thread indeed. Given the blatant corruption lately it’s not hard to believe the government would be responsible for any and all so-called conspiracies.

90% negative reporting on the president and it’s never ending diatribe makes it obvious mainstream media is the lap dog of DC. aka “The Swamp”.

Politicians turn out contrived nonsense on obvious crimes and the media sells it as fact.

Have felt foolish as of late for believing in the media all these years, but grateful to the president and my fellow Americans for finally dragging evil out into the light.

Member

The establishment has no one to blame but themselves for the “establishment” of the conspiracy theory culture, since they gave rise to it themselves with a real conspiracy. If the assassination of JFK wasn’t a conspiracy committed by our ruling class then why won’t even Trump release all the documents scheduled to be released, over 50 years later?

Member

Good original post by the Z Man. A few late thoughts: 1. My experience with conspiracy theorists mostly has to do with the JFK murder, and I was not impressed. I was initially pre-disposed to support a conspiracy, and did my best. But it just isn’t there. What is there is thousands of details, many very strange, that can be interpreted different ways. The problem is, without exception, the interpretations come down to two options: (A) Oswald did it, or (B) There’s some other explanation. The problem is all the B, C, D, E, and F interpretations all point in… Read more »