Note #1: I was on with Mike Farris to talk about stuff. You can find the resulting product on Rumble and iTunes.
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Over the last decade the usual suspects have directed a great deal of resources into anathematizing the term “Christian Nationalism.” One reason is the long war against Christianity in general that dates to the start of the last century. Since these people assume nationalism is a bad word, whatever they can attach it to becomes bad as a result of the linkage. This sort of linguistic guilt by association has been a popular tactic with the usual suspects for a long time.
Another attack is from the establishment churches and affiliated political operations, who worry that their people are getting wise to the grift. Like conservatism in general, social conservatism has been a massive failure. Since so-called Christian organizations have been at the forefront of the culture war, the rank and file are now looking around for an alternative way forward. The people who got rich off losing the culture war see Christian nationalism as a threat to their grift.
The idea behind Christian Nationalism is to provide an alternative moral authority that is in direct contradiction of the one used by the ruling class. No one talks about the moral authority of the ruling elite, especially the ruling elite, but it is assumed that they have some reason for promoting things like diversity and the sexual fads. Maybe it all boils down to bourgeois spite or maybe they think the cause of justice requires them to annihilate society, but whatever the authority, Christian Nationalists reject it.
That is where things get complicated. Within the Christian Nationalist subculture, you see Catholics and Protestants, which raises an obvious issue. You also see many within this space migrating to Eastern Orthodoxy. The reason for the latter is the people in the former are disgusted by the direction of their churches. Of course, you also have the churchless who rely only on their reading of Scripture. They tend to be the most vocal in the public square about their political intensions.
Putting aside the theological differences that exist within this subculture, the bigger question is how to square the Christian with the nationalism. The one thing all of these people would agree upon is Christ died for all mankind, so all men, regardless of race or ethnicity, can accept Jesus Christ and thus become a Christian. If your church is open to everyone, then it stands to reasons that your community is open to everyone, which contradicts the logic of nationalism.
This is where we bump into the elephant in the room. The big exception to the open-door policy is non-Christians. This is where the usual suspects come back into the story, as they claim Christianity is just a fig leaf for the nationalism. When they hiss the word “nationalism” they mean “fascism”, of course. In fairness to the usual suspects, the Christian Identity Movement was exactly this approach. Many of the most vocal Christian Nationalists today are hostile to Jews.
This is especially dangerous from the point of view of the usual suspects because this line of reasoning applies to the very idea of nations. If you want a nation, one with a single language, culture, and people, then you are seeking an exclusive society, rather than an open one. Just as a Christian society must be intolerant of non-Christians, a nationalist society must be intolerant of minorities. Otherwise, you open the foundations of society up to challenges from those minorities.
This brings us back to the eternal question. For Jews to maximize their opportunities in a society, it must not be exclusive of them or their activity. This is the Karl Popper – George Soros argument for the open society. The moral foundation must not be exclusive in any way, which eliminates both nationalism and Christianity from the moral foundation of the open society. Obviously, this logic benefits all minorities, not just Jews, but it also comes at the expense of the majority.
The logic of Christian nationalism puts them at odds with the bulk of modern Christians who are no longer Christian in the theological sense. Most are Judeo-Christian, a weird modern phenomenon that defines Christianity in terms of Israel. It is not unusual for ads like this one to appear on platforms that cater to modern Christians. Much of what modern Christians do is undisguisable from Zionism. That presents and an obvious problem for the people promoting Christian Nationalism.
That brings us back to the theological issue. The Christian Nationalists have a problem in that they think they must operate within the tradition of Christianity. That does not leave them a lot of room to operate. Even those who think Scripture is the only source of truth are faced with the fact that Scripture is a man-made thing. There are lots of lost and excluded books of the Bible. Someone decided to exclude things from Scripture, maybe even things lost to us entirely.
By accepting the framing of the past, they are limiting what they can do as both Christian and nationalists. There is no getting around the fact that the arc of Christianity has led to this point. The universalism is one problem, but the inherent individualism is another big challenge. if all men have an individual relationship with God and are judges as individuals, there is not much room for collective virtue. The virtue of the community will always came second to individual virtue.
What the Christian Nationalists face is a bigger task than reasserting or defending the idea of a Christian nation. They first need to revolutionize both terms. Their Christianity needs to break free of the traditional framing in order to avoid being trapped in a mode of thought that precludes nationalism. At the same time, they have to rethink the idea of nationalism so that it comports with and promotes the compassion that must lie at the heart of their new Christianity.
That sounds like an impossible task, especially given the makeup of the Christian nationalist subculture. These are people with homes and families, hardly the sort to overthrow the current order. On the other hand, Christianity was a revolutionary movement from the start. Nationalism, despite what the usual suspects claim, has also been a revolutionary cause. In other words, the Christian Nationalists are working with material that has always been dangerous to the status quo.
What makes it possible for them to think in these terms is the fact that the old forms are no longer working. The old regime is in crisis because the old systems and old moral claims are no longer working. The last time a world bestriding empire fell into crisis it gave birth to a new religious movement that eventually swept the world. Whether or not there is a theologian or even a charismatic leader ready to accept the challenge is unknown, but the ground is fertile for such a thing.
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“The last time a world bestriding empire fell into crisis it gave birth to a new religious movement that eventually swept the world. Whether or not there is a theologian or even a charismatic leader ready to accept the challenge is unknown, but the ground is fertile for such a thing.”
I think you agree that Woke has all the trappings and indicia of a religion. Isn’t the fertile ground being plowed already by Wokies?
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By the logic of Z’s last sentence, our future is…Mormon.
Think about it: Mormonism is not new; it’s been bouncing around for 150 years. There were campaigns against them early on. It’s got a high convert rate and a high birth rate. Many people including Christians think it’s a ridiculous or even dangerous cult. In time, we’ll get a Mormon President, a Mormon Constantine, and then say hello to the Mormon millennium….God help us!
If Mittens is any reflection of a Mormon leader, I doubt it
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As more traditional Christian churches move to the fore, Mormonism will fade. The Mormon church follows societal trends. Polygamy is the rule, until it got in the way. Blacks were cursed until suddenly they were not in the 70’s. Give them ten more years and they will be all in on the alphabet bandwagon. There is a lot to admire about them. They are not Christian.
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That is one possibility, but I would note that fitness applies to all things. Woke looks a lot like Shakerism with the same end.
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Good point. Transgenderism certainly is a genetic dead end.
Z, have you ever attended church regularly?
“The one thing all of these people would agree upon is Christ died for all mankind, so all men, regardless of race or ethnicity, can accept Jesus Christ and thus become a Christian. If your church is open to everyone, then it stands to reasons that your community is open to everyone, which contradicts the logic of nationalism.”
None of this follows.
You only need look at how many churches aren’t racially diverse, ie most of them.
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The guys on the Christian nationalist side are busy hashing this out. First, I do not know of any that accept the propositional nation concept. So, that rules out universalism. Second, most recognize that ethnic differences exist and people will gravitate to their own ethnic groups. Nothing wrong with that as long as it doesn’t lead to the sin of pride in one’s group (i.e. a superiority complex.) That addresses the race issue. Finally, usually, the pro-Christian nationalists use something like the Nicene creed to define Christianity. That covers Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, and the vast majority of Evangelicals. That provides a broad Christian moral foundation. There would still be lots to debate, but there are not going to be 50 genders.
I think Christian nationalists realize that while a Christian in Laos or Nairobi is a Christian brother, they are different in ways that means having separate nations is not incompatible with Christianity. Even the Soviets realized that when they switched to a more localized communism, and dialed down the universality aspect.
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I am amused by the abuse the Judea-Christians get on gab. They show up and do their act for a minute and then everybody’s like, “Eff you! Recite the Nicene Creed!”
They literally never do. Turns out, the Creed really is a useful tool for identifying a Christian.
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IIRC, Matthew 28:19-20 says “…make disciples of all nations…” not peoples.
Nations are comprised of “people.” No people, no Nation.”
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>” If your church is open to everyone, then it stands to reasons that your community is open to everyone, which contradicts the logic of nationalism.”
Not at all. Why would it mean that? These are entirely different spheres of endeavor. Different rules apply. For example, I might serve someone at my business who I would never invite over to my house, because their money is green and business is business. Different spheres, different rules. The fact that everyone is welcome to pray in my church doesn’t obligate me to throw open my country’s borders to infinity Somalians.
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Hell, even in the 20th century it was common to have, say, a Polish Catholic parish next to an Irish parish, and the two would not interact very much. Catholics and Orthodox have lots of experience managing exactly this thing.
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I always thought Constantine brought in the Old Testament with its nationalism because he realized Christianity wasn’t sufficient to run the empire.
Thanks Mr. Z. I am reminded of Arnold Toynbee’s observation that when a society’s ruling class ceases to be a creative minority and becomes a dominant minority, the capacity for creativity passes to the non-elite, often in the form of new religion. We may be seeing the beginning of that process today. Christianity will have to change or die.
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Even those who think Scripture is the only source of truth are faced with the fact that Scripture is a man-made thing.
Orthobros tend to point out that Protestantism believes in sola scriptura which is “scripture only”. In contrast Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism also use writings of the apostolic fathers as a basis for teaching.
But to your larger point, scripture and saints’ writings aren’t man-made…if you’re Christian, you would believe they were inspired by the Holy Spirit.
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That creates new problems. If they were inspired as some argue, then why the contradictions? If you answer that the men who wrote them down were inspired, not controlled, then we are back to human error. The point is that there is a lot of room for a reformer to refashion the central message of Christ, as well as the foundational texts.
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“But to your larger point, scripture and saints’ writings aren’t man-made.”
The gospels were written by men. On the basis of oral accounts. One can argue they were inspired by the holy spirit but that elides over the point Z man is making. Also, with the proliferation of gospels in the second century, four were chosen. The Gospel of Thomas, for example, was binned and only rediscovered in the 20th century.The early church fathers decided what was and what was not scripture.
Well the first thing to notice is we are surrounded by blatant and obvious evil on all sides and it’s getting worse. And when these people say that they hate all religions, they really don’t, they hate Christianity. Catholicism in particular. And now you’ve got an anti-pope on St Peter’s chair totally in league with the satanic Western elites which numerous saints have been saying would happened towards the end. I don’t know but I think discounting Jesus is probably a bad move right now. And here’s a good post on the diversity of man and the Church
https://neociceroniantimes.substack.com/p/acts-1726-and-a-biblical-approach
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Te Bible also talks about nations and identifiable people tho. It’s a misreading (mostly deliberate by the usual suspects) of Paul’s epistles that leads to the belief that Christianity is somehow incompatible with a genuine nation. Major Christian thinkers such as Aquinas warned against allowing the stranger/foreigner participate in your people’s political issues, as well. For most of its existence, Christianity has been fine about nations. In that respect, Christian nationalists have far less theological problems to reconcile than their opponents.
“The last time a world bestriding empire fell into political crisis…”? Are you seriously referring to Rome? You’re exaggerating the importance of our age. We’ve had bigger empires since Rome — including the Spanish and the British — both of which probably had further reach than the current one.
The collapse of the current order won’t be a world-changing event on the scale of Rome. Sorry.
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The GAR is much more powerful in relative and absolute terms than the British or Spanish empires ever were.
Not least because both of those empire had peer competitors at the height of their power that limited their actions. America does not have any.
Another difference is that most of the territory of the British and Spanish empires was unproductive wastelands in the tropics that were net drains on their wealth and power.
The GAE has wisely cut those places loose, and created structures that enable the extraction of what feeble resources they have that are wanted. That operationally is much more efficient than direct governance, even if it appears to lower the geographic reach of the empire.
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Laughable to claim that the US has no limiting factors.
The US does not even “span” the land over which it claims to have jurisdiction over.
The US has lost control of most of its inner cities and the native stock are a despised minority in its wealthiest state.
US did not cut Third World utopias loose; it cannot police them egs Afghanistan,Iraq,Vietnam…
US is weaker than WW1 Austro-Hungarian empire . NATO, including the US, can only produce about 8% of the artillery shells the Austrisns could in 1914 before that empire had to massively ramp up production for the war.
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This is my take as well. While the GAE was mucking around in Whereverstan, it was increasingly unable to control the D.C. ghettoes. This trend is accelerating.
To be fair, Peak GAE was unprecedented in influence, but that faltered in rather short order. Comparison to the also short-lived Portuguese Empire, putting aside the financial and communication reach, seems about right.
“The collapse of the current order won’t be a world-changing event on the scale of Rome.”
I honestly don’t know. The Roman empire was really the “Greco-Roman world” and with the collapse of the western empire, that world was rent asunder. In other words, the Roman empire was just the final installment in a process started by the Greeks almost a thousand years prior. It was a civilization. With the demise of the GAE we may see the end of the anglophone world that began with British conquest.
Christian Nationalism is an oxymoron.
Christianity from the very inception was a universalist creed. One that not only accepted any and all acolytes, but also claimed dominion over all mankind.
It is a very black pill to realize that Christendom took a fatal wrong turn with the reformation. The worst predictions at the time, that protestants would ultimately reject law itself and that every man would be his own church (god) have proven true.
Nationalism was a novel idea in the 16th century that attempted to bring peace to end the religious wars that followed the reformation. And it worked for centuries, but is now played out.
Liberalism is a heretical offshoot of protestant christianity that has almost entirely supplanted orthodox Christianity and even the original protestant offshoots. It is especially pernicious because it retains the expansionist universalism of Christianity but lost the restraining and redeeming elements of supernaturalism.
Whatever ultimately replaces liberalism will not be Christian (in any contemporary or historical sense) nor nationalist. Attempts to revive the past through an ersatz Christian Nationalism are modern white Americans ghost dancing. A pathetic doomed cope.
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This was excellent. But it’s not impossible that some form of Christian nationalism will be an important faction in the formation of “whatever comes next”. I’m guessing the next phase is some “league” or “confederation” of tribes/groups that share some common goals and common enemies. But who knows?
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Also, frankly, you’re way overblowing the importance of Christian Zionism, which (like New Atheism, perhaps not coincidentally) was big during the Bush years, but now is a shadow of what it used to be. That John Hagee video has 65,000 views – in 2005 something like it would have had a couple million; that charity to help Ukrainian Jews raised $2.5 million dollars today, but in 2005 they would have been able to raise 25 million in a week. In 2023, nobody but the Boomerest of Boomers thinks we have to help Israel destroy Iran so that Jesus will come back. Yes, Nikki Haley says things like that, but where is she in the polls? And especially, where is she in the polls with anyone but Boomers?
Times change. Judeophilia is still big among the elite who get big checks from AIPAC and J Street, but has cooled tremendously among the rank and file.
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Your instinct for the ad hominem is not very Christian.
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What’s the ad hominem? He didn’t attack you
He wrote: “Also, frankly, you’re way overblowing the importance of Christian Zionism, which (like New Atheism, perhaps not coincidentally)”
I am not easily fooled.
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Spot on. The simultaneous collapse of Christian Zionism and social conservatism are of a piece. The recent rise of Orthodoxy likely is the direct result of this social change. American Judeophilia probably peaked around 2004 and has entered a period of rapid decline. Given who runs the media, this also likely explains the heavily promoted panic over “hate,” which in turn ironically will accelerate the hostility and pace of change. The rejection of the Scofield Bible and to a somewhat lesser extent Vatican II is something that in time will be seen as a watershed.
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How much of that $2.5 million was seed money? Groups like that usually have one big donor to kick off the campaign, and present the look that it is something to join. I agree that it is a small amount.
Yes, I think the Judeo-Christian routine is fading. Anyone with a brain has noticed what a one-way street it is.
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It feels like the right is always fighting battles it has already lost. Nationalism as imagined 200 years ago is dead in the United States and Europe, as immigration has already reached a critical mass that nothing outside of mass expulsions will create an ethnically cohesive country again. Christian Nationalism suffers the same problem as creedal citizenship, as it is a country based on nebulous ideas instead of people.
With the dawn of technology and ease of travel though, it’s easier than ever to migrate and create communities of like-minded people. There’s little logistical reason now why a mass of people could not move to Florida, set up a town, and enforce their Christian moral codes, expelling those who do not conform, but there are massive legal hurdles. If covenant communities became de-facto legal again, there would be a multitude of mini-societies sprouting up all over the country as well as online.
The good part about collapse is eventually the State loses its ability to enforce its own laws, which is how South Africans are getting away with creating their own mini-societies that actually work, along with their own law enforcement. Expect to see much more of that. Instead of a Hail Mary pass to save a country that’s already gone, organizing and building local alliances outside the purview of our rapidly deteriorating country is far more likely to end in a decent life for those you care about.
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Nozick’s minimal security state returns as a “creedal community”.
Meanwhile, the Ukes and the Russians are busy demonstrating how hard it could be in the future for central governments to enforce their writ in distant/remote areas.
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“The good part about collapse is eventually the State loses its ability to enforce its own laws, which is how South Africans are getting away with creating their own mini-societies that actually work, along with their own law enforcement. Expect to see much more of that. ”
Indeed. The fragmentation that is following on from dissolution is the biggest story of modern history. Like all utopian impulses, the WEF master plan will prove and in fact is proving a massive, destructive failure. We already can adjudge it to have been too insane to ever have a chance. Take not of the recent backpedaling from Fink and Gates, who see the handwriting on the wall.
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Great post overall, but you had me here:
“Instead of a Hail Mary pass to save a country that’s already gone, organizing and building local alliances outside the purview of our rapidly deteriorating country is far more likely to end in a decent life for those you care about.”
This, so much this. There is no saving the country.
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Without getting bogged down in matters theological, the church has served as one of the ways in which ethnically related white people (e.g., Germans, Scandinavians, English people, etc.) have been able to bond together and form communities. The message of Christianity may be universal (particularly after the efforts of St. Paul) but in practice it has served as a means of forming and maintaining communities of ethnically-related white people. For precisely this reason Woke, and the sinister forces behind it, have Christianity in their cross-hairs. One can’t even say “Merry Christmas” anymore — it’s become “Happy Holidays.”
I watched LA Confidential last night. Central to the corrupt LAPD captain’s plot to muscle out the Jewish crime boss, was his framing of innocent black men for a murder he committed of the white cops who stole his heroin.
Well, at least two white cops had the integrity and balls to be heroic and foil the capo’s plot and bring him down.
Now, sadly, I am sure that when I watched it back in the day, I probably eagerly accepted the corrupt white cop frames innocent black guy plot point.