The High Cost Of Low Trust

Legend has it, that when the Persians were conquering Asia Minor, the great king Cyrus was warned that the Greeks were dangerous adversaries. He supposedly laughed this off as the Greeks, in his mind, were a people who lied to one another. A people who could not tell truth from fiction could not possibly stand up to the Persians. What he was referring to was the Greek market place, where commerce was conducted between buyers and sellers haggling over price. This was an alien concept to the Persians.

Like most anecdotes handed down to us, especially those from the long ago past, this is probably apocryphal. Herodotus, the main source of information about the Persians, was as much a story teller as a historian. Even so, we know the Persians considered lying and owing a debt to be the worst sins. Lying could get a person executed, if the person being told the lie was of high status. It was not that lying to a person of high status was particularly wrong. It was that the high status person had the power to punish the liar.

Naturally, the Persians would have looked at the Greek culture as deeply immoral, as it was based on dishonesty. After all, persuasion is a form of lying and democracy is about persuading people, not arriving at the truth. The marketplace is where buyers and sellers seek advantage over one another. The seller exaggerates the quality of his goods and the buyer tries to play sellers off one another to get a bargain. Not only is there no advantage to truth telling, there can be great rewards for skillful dishonesty.

Whether or not Cyrus said what is claimed is unimportant. It is an important insight into a fundamental flaw of both democracy and the marketplace. Public debate is not a search for truth, but a search for a way to convince a majority of the public. Similarly, the market is not a search for the true value of a good or service. It is the search for the bigger share of a financial transaction. Inevitably such systems reward the people who are good at gaining the trust of their fellow citizens in order to deceive them.

This truth about the marketplace, be it the political market or the market for goods and services, is not an argument against it. Any form of human organization is going to involve trade-offs. Further, men are not angels, so all social systems will be susceptible to corruption. Knowing this about democracy, for example, is why the Founders tried to construct a system that would restrain democracy. Similarly, the economic reforms a century ago were intended to put limits on the marketplace.

In the present age, this institutional dishonesty is most obvious in politics, where the parties are now completely dominated by sociopaths. A system that is supposedly built on respect for the public will is now run by people who hold the people in contempt. They take pleasure in lying to their most important voters. It’s not just the Right, the Left does the same thing, only with more skill. Elizabeth Warren will run as an opponent of big business, but in office she will be entirely beholden to global corporate interests.

What compounds this problem in democracy is the people are conditioned to think it is normal and healthy to be ruled by sociopaths. Politics becomes the inverse of what people expect in their daily lives. Among your friends and acquaintances, you expect a high degree of trust and honestly. In politics, you have been trained to demand the most extreme forms of lying. If a politician makes the mistake of uttering the truth, he is hooted off the stage. Democracy makes the people an enemy of themselves.

Something similar happens in the marketplace. It used to be that the cost and profit of an item was reflected in the price. When costs went up, the price went up. If the seller was a bit greedy, the price would reflect it. Today, when costs go up, the seller quietly shrinks the product. The greed of the seller results in larger packages that disguise the shrinking product inside. It used to be a pint was a pound the world around, but now it is closer to thirteen ounces, but it depends up the seller and time of day.

As with democracy, the real crime with these deceptive practices in the marketplace is it normalizes dishonestly. Whenever the topic of “shrinkflation” comes up, people have been trained to laugh at the person questioning it. “That’s just clever marketing” we are told, as if it is naive and childlike to question systemic fraud. The result is the virtues of the marketplace get turned on their head. Instead of competition producing the best product, competition produces the most accomplished liars.

None of this is an argument against self-government or commerce. It’s that free markets and self-government are not ends in themselves, but a means to an end. The point of human organization is the spiritual and material prosperity of the people. The form of government and the economic arrangements are about the welfare of the people, not some theoretical ideal. If defending democracy means defending rule by sociopath, maybe democracy, at least the extreme form, is not a great idea.

Similarly, if free markets result in the people being terrorized by global technology giants, maybe a little less economic freedom, in order to reign in these companies, is a good trade-off. After all, the point of economic order is not to achieve private tyranny in defense of a theory. The point of economic order is to benefit the people, collectively and individually. If it requires government regulation to have prices on goods and services that indicate the real value of the items, that’s not a terrible trade-off.

For just five dollars a month you can help feed a starving dissident in Lagos. That’s less than the price of a craft beer or a coffee at Starbucks.  Five bucks a month is not a lot to ask to feed a dissident. Unlike those mega-corporations, I will not use your money to destroy your family and community. Or, you can send money to me at: Z Media LLC P.O. Box 432 Cockeysville, MD 21030-0432. I now have a PayPal setup for those who prefer that method to donate. Thank you for your support!

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Alex
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Alex

One of the things that drove me from the Libertarians was the slavish (and wrong) adherence to the Free Market concept. They imagine that choosing alternatives when faced with an unsatisfactory good or service is costless and frictionless, which to anyone with a brain knows is not true. To extend your pint example, if I’m at a bar and order a pint, and can even tell that its not a full pint but 13 oz, am I going to stand up and walk out? Probably not. I’ll endure this little slight to my wallet and move on with my life,… Read more »

Outdoorspro
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Outdoorspro

The power of marketing never ceases to amaze me. If you ask, most bartenders and servers will tell you that it’s an “American pint”, like ‘it has always been thus’. The sad thing is, they actually believe it and see it as honest and true. I have no doubt that our descendants (if there are any) will study Marketing in the 20th and 21st Centuries as a primary cause of our decline.

Hoagie
Guest
Hoagie

When I was in the restaurant/bar business several owners who are friends told me that they “switched” from pint beer glasses to 14oz. tumblers. They said all you need to do is never call them “pints” because that would be “false representation”, but in their minds asking a customer if he wanted another “tumbler” was a-okay. I cringed. A pint is a pint and why on earth would I quibble over 2 oz and cheat my guests? Some of the guys thought I was nuts (which I am) but some came around and dumped the “tumbler” ruse.

William Williams
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William Williams

>>>…Marketing in the 20th and 21st Centuries as a primary cause of our decline.

Kenneth Clark (the Brit who wrote the 1960s television series “Civilisation”) was asked what he believed to be the single most important factor in the decline of West; his one-word answer was “advertising”.

Compsci
Guest
Compsci

Alex, as you said, you move on with your life. So in my world, that means “moving on” to a different bar—one that sells 16 oz pints, or one that has prices that reflect 13 oz “pints”. This is where I believe Z-man’s analogies need qualification or they fall short. When one is “cheated” or defrauded without his knowledge or possibility of knowledge, then yes, society—possibly through government—has a roll in establishing rules/regulations. Not sure I’ve ever heard a Lib support fraud—indeed, I usually discuss Lib principles in term of abstention of force or fraud. But this is not a… Read more »

Member

If you read Poorly Made in China and/or What’s Wrong with China, that is part of their culture – nibbling. They can’t do a buffet because too many will gorge themselves. Not even a one trip since they will build a salad tower. You order 1000 pallets, 25 will be rotten or brokeen and often conveniently separated from the good ones. Your dog food might contain melamine to fool the test for protein. They will sell QC rejects or fakes.

Member

“The point of human organization is the spiritual and material prosperity of the people”

Agreed. Unfortunately, the dominant spirit over us is moloch. Say your prayers. There’s only one defense against the devil

Carl B.
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Carl B.

“A system that is supposedly built on respect for the public will is now run by people who hold the people in contempt. ” Can’t say I blame our rulers. Take a trip to your local Wal Mart and then watch tonight’s Democrat “debate” and draw your own conclusions. The idea of a government run by “the consent of the people” and something like a “White Ethno-State” coming into being is nothing but fantasy. The “American Experiment” is over, a mere historical aberration. The iceberg has been hit – what follows is inevitable. BTW, why would one want government bureaucrats,… Read more »

Tykebomb
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Tykebomb

Supposedly, we’re to shoot them. Until they regulate our guns away, then we just riot on the weekends for months on end in our sparkly vests.

Mostly, we just wait for the prosperity to end, so a critical mass of people will riot with us. Which is why Keynesian economics is the favorite tool of the government. It lets them plaster over the cracks in the drywall while the foundation pulls away.

This the whole “figuring out what comes next” thing that we keep talking about. It’s hard.

Calsdad
Guest
Calsdad

So when they regulate the guns away – you’ll do what ? Just hand them in? Alex whines above about how the bartender stiffed him on a few ounces of beer at the bar – and instead of punching the bartender in the face to resolve the issue and teach him a lesson so he doesn’t do it again – he says that searching for alternatives is too much work. Reminds me of Bernie Sanders bitching about how there were too many deodorant choices – and if he got elected he was going to do something about that. It’s also… Read more »

dad29
Guest

There will ALWAYS be questions of “to what degree” should someone/thing be “regulated.” Do you wish to argue that monopoly or oligopoly is a benefit to society as a whole? Then prove your case. How about what “speech” is free? Religion? Expect an argument–and note that they have been settled through elections regularly in this country.

Range Front Fault
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Range Front Fault

“After all, the point of economic order is not to achieve a private TRANNY in defense of a theory.” LOL! By dropping a letter we get to the heart of the problem! Our legislators are bought, sold and paid for by Big Donors, among them Big Tech. Look at all the money Big Tech, Koch Bros, Soros and all the other globalist pirates stuff down the pants of the people supposedly representing us. Look how quickly they got to Muh Tea Party Paul Ryan and flipped him. Good grief….my senator is Globalist Pirate squeal on the piano bench Mitt Romney… Read more »

A.B Prosper
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A.B Prosper

Keynesian economics and a welfare state has kept the economy decently stable for more than a few generations .It works quite well within limits and had we avoided immigration and cultural marxism, we’d be still doing fine That said there is a lot of ruin in a nation and L.A. now has typhus , clown world might keep going on far longer than can be imagined Waiting for the other guy in a collapse is lazy and weak and worse as seen in the the 3rd world often there is no rebellion when things get worse, they just get worse… Read more »

Member
Ostei Kozelskii

As the Titanic sinks after striking the iceberg, the likelihood of a white ethnostate increases.

The Last Stand
Guest
The Last Stand

People suck, welcome to the real world with of us. The only defense I can think of is religion and nationalism. Neither is perfect because people are flawed. Still gotta try anyway. No surrender. Not even in the face of Armageddon.

Member

I’m glad someone brought this up. This is the problem. The same corrupt sociopaths are in charge in the business world and in democratic politics. The same theatrical model holds sway. I watch a lot of science and technology videos on YT. Since most of the people doing these are pozzed little shits they almost work in some global warming virtue signalling. It’s almost rote, like when politicians used to end speeches with “God bless America”. Usually there’s something about how this or that new gadget or process will “help us address global warming”. It’s all a sham though. For… Read more »

LineInTheSand
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LineInTheSand

Conservatives take their stand on procedural issues like constitutionalism and the free market to escape that what most people want is the flourishing of their group, especially non-whites. So let’s just be explicit: Since you can’t survive as an individual in a world of competing groups, who is in your group and how can you promote its flourishing?

If we forced to try to construct a system that attempts to allow irreconcilable groups to coexist then it’s time to separate because it is a zero sum game.

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

The “Empire of Dust” movie is relevant here. The Chinese want a road built to steal all the resources, and the local Africans want to be paid as much as possible for as little work and material as possible. The underlying problem is that they are two different cultures seeking different things, and they must interact. Chinese vs. other Chinese would be a different kettle of fish, as would be Africans vs. their African peers. Separation, please.

4140
Guest
4140

“This is all so tiresome.”

A.B Prosper
Guest
A.B Prosper

In other words Join or Die

Member

Good post! The drawbacks to both a market economy and democracy, which you so ably lay out, are best ameliiorated at the local level, or at least in small economic or political communities. Even today, if a business gets a bad reputation (slow pay, no pay, or habitually materially misstating the quality of goods) it can be more devastating to it than the sanctions that the law permits, a point that I often made when I taught business law. But when the majority of economic transactions are “one-offs,” the price to be paid for unethical conduct is much lower. It’s… Read more »

Sean Detente
Member

Off topic, but what’s that eagle in your profile pic?

Bob
Guest
Bob

Not who you asked, but I think it’s the eagle of the Holy Roman Empire.

Member

It’s an image that I picked up on the Internet several years ago. It resembles the two-headed eagle of the Holy Roman Empire and the present two-headed eagle of Russia, but I don’t think it’s a copy of either. I just like it!

Maus
Guest
Maus

Ramzpaul made a great clip recently about driving through a Midwestern city to demonstrate the proliferation of national chains and the destruction of “mom and pop” small businesses. It is the Walmartization of America. Everywhere is the same and you can have anything you want as long as it’s crappy fast food or shoddy consumer goods from China. When all of America is Californicated, you’ll eat only tacos, wear only ironic t-shirts and drive only electric cars, and read or watch only what Google or Facebook has chosen for you as muy bueno. Feast on the coming shit sandwich of… Read more »

Carl B.
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Carl B.

Exactly.

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

Maus, find a middle ground between the two extremes. It is out there if you look for it. Not ideal, but better than both of your options.

Member
Ostei Kozelskii

The free market, in generating disposable income, allows the lowest common denominator to dictate the culture with its wallet.

Member

I saw the same RamZpaul video and had your reaction. I also was struck with the homogenization (and degradation) of American culture in a recent trip to the western suburbs of Detroit: strip malls, supermarkets, car dealers, fast-food places and tract housing. I could have been anywhere in the U.S.

Badthinker
Guest
Badthinker

Funny. I was having a conversation with a coworker this morning. She was complaining that you can’t trust anybody to do good work anymore. Her A/C went out and 3/4 the guys that have looked at it have told her different reasons its broken, but the one thing they had in common was that she needed to buy a new furnace and A/C unit. Do we have to accept Belloc’s The Mercy of Allah in every area of our life now?

Member

Reminds me of giving up on calling tech support. Many times after a little discussion will send you to the sales department.

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

Learn a/c repair. Youtubes. At least learn how to diagnose, so the repair guys don’t run you around the block. So far I have competently repaired (working properly for years now) an a/c unit and a swamp cooler, with no specialized knowledge.

And if she is not up to it, that is what her husband is for 😉

dad29
Guest

Yes!! The “throw-away” society is a problem. We are filling landfills with all sorts of materials which are no longer available for others to use or re-use.

Calsdad
Guest
Calsdad

She’s a woman. That’s the root of the issue she’s having. I worked in a car dealership for a few years in my early 20’s. Women hate going into dealerships – because everybody treats them like they’re stupid – and tries to sell them a new engine when what they really need is just an oil change. I built a loyal base – of female customers – by being as gender blind as I could possibly be, and by explaining to them in layman’s terms WHY they needed the repairs on their cars that we were trying to sell them.… Read more »

Badthinker
Guest
Badthinker

What do you do with the 50% of the pop below 100 IQ who can’t stop being dopes?

Member

Calsdad: “I built a loyal base – of female customers – by being as gender blind as I could possibly be, and by explaining to them in layman’s terms WHY they needed the repairs…” I’ve no reason to doubt that you built a loyal female base. But aside from that, any good salesman or bullshitter can convincingly explain “in layman’s terms WHY [customer] needs the repairs.” That’s what salesman DO. Your average customer may believe you, but they can’t know the truth or falsity or accuracy of it. All they know is “hmm, that makes sense” and “he seems like… Read more »

Calsdad
Guest
Calsdad

LOL.

Dude – there is no marketplace.

Guest
Guest
Guest

Cal, I thought you were our “leave me alone” libertarian guy. Have you had some big re-orientations recently? I’m curious about your journey.

Calsdad
Guest
Calsdad

Zman made a point maybe a couple of weeks back that there is no marketplace. I just need some clarity – which is it? Market – or no market?

Until then maybe I need to remember to put in the sarcasm tag.

King Tut
Guest
King Tut

” The point of human organization is the spiritual and material prosperity of the people.” An issue that has been batted about in past posts is creating a moral project for the political right. May I humbly suggest that z-man’s above aphorism would be a very good place to start.

Member

A pound of coffee which isn’t a pound, a roll of toilet paper or paper towels which you can obviously see being short changed and even a few diners are cutting back from 4 strips of bacon to three. This means war sir!
Yes, we are wholesale liars and swindlers now.

Drake
Guest
Drake

“If a politician makes the mistake of uttering the truth, he is hooted off the stage.”

Good primer for the Dems primary debate clown shows about to start.

Member

“We are being replaced with third worlders!”

at the same time as

“if free markets result in the people being terrorized by global technology giants, maybe a little less economic freedom, in order to reign in these companies, is a good trade-off.”

It’s hard to not get black pilled when the people philosophically MOST ON YOUR SIDE are screaming “Make new government powers so the new third-world dominated government forgives my student loans, protects me from censorship, gibs me free healthcare, and keeps muh economy good.”

Can’t help but wonder if this all just the soviet plan coming to full fruition.

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

High trust helped build Western civilization. Encouraging a low trust culture is part of the process of destroying it. Why our “betters” think a low trust culture is advantageous to them is hard to understand. I think it is the idea that their priority of capturing the economic “skim” in the short run is more valuable to them, than building something for the long run. They plan to buy their way out of the coming meltdown, in some way or another. The Clintons set an example for all of this, and it has worked for them, so far.

Lineman
Guest
Lineman

If you want to understand why our “betters” want a low trust society look to any dictator of a third world country…

Member

Well, so is calling for government intervention high trust or low trust? It’s high trust in government– and extremely low trust in your neighbor to call for the Great White Washington Kindergarten Playground Monitor to make sure that the guy down the street has the right permits before he trades his car.

Calsdad
Guest
Calsdad

A high trust society – would also be based on honest money. The debased money that we are currently stuck with – which is constantly “inflated” so as to keep the Federal government alive and keep the globohomo project funded – is what is responsible for the inflationary pricing – and is therefore responsible for your ice cream being smaller and your pizza slices shrinking. Go look at the value of the dollar from it’s inception all the way thru to the late 1800’s. That’s what a high trust society with honest money looks like. Then look at the value… Read more »

Lineman
Guest
Lineman

Yea but Calsdad think of the example you just used…Who controls our money since 1913 (private company) and who controlled it before that (government)…I get where your coming from Brother but you have to see the irony in your comment…😉

Lars Emilsson
Guest
Lars Emilsson

The (((private company))) which controls “our” money to their benefit and our detriment cannot do so without government enforcement. The fed is what it is – a colossal heist – precisely because our government enables it, indeed created it, backed with armed force or threat thereof. How can any entity with a monopoly on physical violence be entrusted with ownership and management of a society’s money? Always and everywhere throughout history such power has eventually corrupted the highest of civilizations.

Dave
Guest
Dave

Exactly. There is no such thing as an honest carpenter in a world where all rulers are made of Silly Putty. Paper money corrupts all who touch it.

simonvmentvm
Guest

The Soviet system is already here. You’re late to notice. A circle of patronage from the state to plutocrats to middle managers and back to the state is the picture of the modern Soviet system. People cry about socialism and political violence. We’ve had both to varying degrees since the ’60s and ’70s in the West. What do you call intractable non-white violence that has relatively easy institutional solutions, but which nonetheless has not been solved in all this time? (This is not counting various people who’ve been ‘suicided’ and had ‘tragic accidents’ or ‘unfortunate robberies gone wrong.’) Most people… Read more »

Member

Good article, Zman. The rights enumerated in our Declaration of Independence are inalienable, whether infringed upon by one group of people (representatives of the government) or another group of people (board of directors of a multi-national corporation). The term inalienable does not mean our rights cannot be infringed, else there would have been no reason for the declaration to have been written in the first place. Rather, the term inalienable means that these rights are inherent and do not go away – we have them, even if they are being trodden underfoot, as they constantly will be. But those who… Read more »

Lineman
Guest
Lineman

The biggest problem we face is not from those enemies you mentioned but in putting a coalition of “We” together to take care of the problem…The problems would be easily solved if we could accomplish the building of the “We”…

Rod1963
Guest
Rod1963

This is exactly why TPTB spend so much effort on making sure we don’t put together a coalition. And even by chance we get someone in, they are isolated in D.C., surrounded by apparatchiks, swamp creatures who like things the way they are.

The only coalitions we can organize are local ones based on family, friends, values etc. Basically groups that are so low profile no one notices them.

Member

“It used to be a pint was a pound the world around”

Ah, the lies never stop, do they?

It never was,

A pint always was (well since the 1820’s) , and still is 20 ounces in the UK.

The one pound pint was a early example of sizing dishonesty perpetrated solely in America I believe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_units
And, for the history buff
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_and_US_customary_measurement_systems

Johnny55
Guest
Johnny55

This is why, we need to at the same time engage and disengage. Build your own families, your own communities, etc. These cuckservatives tell you that the evil evil socialists believe in a “free lunch” and that’s crazy, and yet at the same time try to give you the fantasy of a “free market” and the Rothschild’s pet David Ricardo, a special person, and his lie of comparative advantage. Here’s a hint, anyone who denounces the weapon of economic boycott and does not advocate and adhere to it is either: 1) an ignorant fool; or 2) a filthy liar. This… Read more »

Lineman
Guest
Lineman

Preach it Brother…I agree with you which is why I advocate for what I do…The problem I’ve run into though is people don’t want to build something new when they are still comfortable with the old…They have no foresight to see what is coming at them like a freight train…It sucks Brother I’m in the same boat as you…

Rod1963
Guest
Rod1963

All very spot on. And yes economic boycotts work. Some decades ago a Lefty magazine called “AdBusters” advocated a “buy nothing day” for black friday. Well Limbaugh got wind of it and basically flipped out for about 20 minutes on his show about the evils of it. Even if 20% of whites sat out Black friday and other shopping days a lot transnational concerns would start going belly up. They can barely afford a 2-3% loss of consumers, a 20% would be catastrophic. Want to get rid of the TSA and shitty conditions while flying? Just have whites stop flying… Read more »

Tacitus
Guest
Tacitus

Z: you mention the telos as being the *spiritual and material* prosperity; I highly recommend City of God by St Augustine. The thesis is that these two can never coexist long term: the City of Man (material desires) will always dominate.

It takes a new spiritual and moral cycle for a new city of God to emerge from the ashes. Even then, there is no guarantee that the moral lesson, which amounts simply to understanding a cause and effect relationship, will be learned.

dad29
Guest

Augie was a smart guy and I won’t argue with him. But Augie would look with favor on putting up a fight to re-balance the cities. That’s what we intend to do, friend.

Tacitus
Guest
Tacitus

dad29: My point can be summarized thusly: in lieu of fighting a pyrrhic battle for control of a dying civilization (dying as reflected in the current moral state), a more successful alternative is to forge a new path where hopefully lessons learned may be applied.

Please don’t interpret my statement as being nihilistic; of course we should still do what we can while this current civilization exists as it does.

Yves Vannes
Member

Augustine was born into a wealthy but spiritual dead late empire. But the empires that built Rome, that built the ancient civilizations of the Near East and Far East, that built the great cathedrals of Europe and the great civilizations of the High Middle Age were anything but spiritually dead. What Augustine noticed was that, as in our own age, the 7 deadly sins had become the 7 noble sins…and the 7 noble virtues had become the 7 deadly virtues. Men had become beasts driven by vice who lived as parasites off the works of the better men who had… Read more »

Lineman
Guest
Lineman

@YV
Very well said👍

Range Front Fault
Guest
Range Front Fault

My brother…well written….have copied to refer….thanks!

Tacitus
Guest
Tacitus

Yves: Great post. Coincidentally, Dante’s La Divina Commedia was one of the first works I read on my “path” towards understanding these things (Novum Organum Scientarium and other Baconiana being my initiation). This ‘Archeo’ is also understood as the great stream of tradition from which we may all draw when we choose to be human (as opposed to mechanized consuming bug men). It shows itself in the Christian tradition, several of the more notable Mystery rites of Europe and the near East, Buddhism, Confucian society, traditional Japanese society, the Vedas. The ‘catch’, as best as I can tell, is that… Read more »

Ivan
Guest
Ivan

“There is another form of temptation, even more fraught with danger. This is the disease of curiosity. It is this which drives us to try and discover the secrets of nature, those secrets which are beyond our understanding, which can avail us nothing and which man should not wish to learn.”
– Saint Augustine

I have come to appreciate the Christian power of not caring. But I could never subscribe to an ideology that counsels ignorance.

Hun
Guest
Hun

Yeah, Christians never invented anything.

3g4me
Guest
3g4me

Ivan – I used to think the same, prior to becoming a Christian. Rather than ignorance, try to view it as the acceptance of mysteries that are beyond human understanding. While I feel empathy for those struggling with infertility, for example, I believe our entire edifice of reproductive science – artificial insemination, donor eggs, sperm banks, rent-a-womb, in vitro fertilization, etc. – has been disastrous, like children playing with power tools. Beyond the basic science, which is far more complex than most realize, there is the moral sphere, and there we are totally adrift and unfit.

Fred
Guest
Fred

Curiosity has had a bad name since way back. Think Eve, Pandora, and The Golden Ass. St. Augustine is not alone, but he does not have the last word. Aquinas distinguishes between curiositas (curiosity) and studiositas (studiousness) and “in fact defends properly attained knowledge — both intellective (i.e., of the intellect) and sensitive (i.e., of the senses) — from the accusation of being attained through practicing the vice of curiosity.” So maybe we should define terms. What do Augustine and Aquinas mean by “curiosity”? https://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/2007/12/christianity-and-reason-vice-of.html Bernard of Clairveaux also takes a dim view of idle curiosity. “Then you have some… Read more »

Yves Vannes
Member

There was an excellent book written on this subject some years ago by Roger Shattuck.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0312146027/ref=dbs_a_w_dp_0312146027

BadThinker
Guest
BadThinker

*This* is why I love this comment section. Always another great book to find and read.

Citizen of a Silly Country
Guest
Citizen of a Silly Country

I’ve noted this before, but I still believe that it encapsulates very succinctly what Z is talking about and how to think of capitalism.

Calvin Coolidge: The business of America is business.

Japanese leader (can’t remember who): The business of Japan is the Japanese.

Capitalism and free markets are a wonderful tool, but that’s all that they are: a tool. They should serve the purpose of advancing the welfare of a people. Political and business leader should always have that as their ultimate goal. Once you make profits the ultimate goal, the people become an impediment.

Lineman
Guest
Lineman

So the question is do we at this point just have to let it crash and burn or is there another option…

Citizen of a Silly Country
Guest
Citizen of a Silly Country

Both. Getting to know people at a local level – joining groups, etc. – and starting to form those connections works regardless of what comes. We still have a remarkable economy and a lot of talented white (and, to a degree, NE Asian) guys. We’re not going to see collapse any time soon. But the system will degrade for a variety of reasons. Our enemies will simultaneously get stronger – by gaining more control of the political levers of power – and weaker/less legitimate – by screwing up the system and openly attacking whites. How that plays out and for… Read more »

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

Do “we” have any choice in the matter? Can a critical mass of “we” be put together in time? Does openly working to build our critical mass, and articulating it in public, call attention to ourselves in such a way that the powers that be then squish us like a bug? Does running under the radar mean that there is little possibility of getting from here to there in time with a meaningful number of people? I wrestle with these questions every day.

Citizen of a Silly Country
Guest
Citizen of a Silly Country

Dutch,

Yeah, I have the same questions. But you can only do what you can do. Maybe we’re just gnats flapping our wings against a hurricane. Don’t know. But I look at what Jews accomplished over the past 100 years and say, yeah, it can get done, or, at least, there’s a shot.

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

Citizen, agreed. I have my plans underway. All of this is a process, and I will get where I get, over time. The only thing I know is that I won’t be around forever, in any case. So I am making sure I am finding enjoyment in the trip along the way. My sense is that there is a broad quiet consensus, among much of the white male community, about where we need to get to. The difficulty is in getting a consensus on the path to take to get there. Subversive, confrontational, leaving town, fighting the battle or laying… Read more »

Lineman
Guest
Lineman

My sense is that there is a broad quiet consensus, among much of the white male community, about where we need to get to. The difficulty is in getting a consensus on the path to take to get there…
Yes I agree but it’s because we all have our own plans instead of a group plan that we can’t come to a consensus…JMHO

Range Front Fault
Guest
Range Front Fault

Rather sure we won’t get to a group plan until the tit is fully in the wringer, if you’ll excuse the metaphor. That’s human nature. When the wild fire is obviously and visually in line of sight boring down on your ranch, then you move. Y’all keep thrashing around postulating what the trigger will be to get us to krall up and move into action. Damn, have some faith in yourselves. You’ll know when it happens and as obvious as an elephant in the living room. It will happen. And you’ll recognize it. You will cross the Rubicon. Until then,… Read more »

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

Funny you should use the “fire bearing down” example. Back in 2003, the Cedar Fire was bearing down on our neighborhood. I pointed out to the neighbors that there was an angry plume of chocolate brown smoke going right over our neighborhood, driven by sustained high wind. I told them the fire goes where the smoke goes, and to pack up and get ready to leave. They looked at me like I was crazy. I had to go around turning off the electricity, the gas, and the water for everyone, because they hadn’t thought of it, didn’t know how to… Read more »

Range Front Fault
Guest
Range Front Fault

Humbling perfect example. Common sense ain’t common. Too many deer in the headlights. Not enough Apex Predators chasing us on the savanna. Where are you Apex! With the growing number of reintroduced wolf packs, some of us will learn to run or get eaten.

Penitent Man
Member

Dutch,

That was kind of you to do that for your neighbors. I hope you told them that they would be responsible for doing it themselves the next time.

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

Self-interest, partly. Keeping their houses OK made mine more likely to survive too. Keeping the water pressure up for the hydrants, as much as possible, was important as well. Only took 15 minutes or so to do the street, both sides. The weird thing was that even though our house was mostly OK, I went through a form of PTSD for some months afterward, quick to anger and not thinking straight. Living in a burnt out neighborhood might have had something to do with it. I am thinking that if things go down, Venezuela style or similar, we all will… Read more »

Penitent Man
Member

Dutch,

Nevertheless, a kindness… accept the praise.

We were effected in the Cedar fire too, my sister nearly lost her house and her neighbor did.

I had to relocate all of my people into our small then-house in the college area because of the evac orders.

I understand the PTSD part of it. In the 07 Harris fire I was tasked to help with evac and security. It was heartbreaking to have to keep people out of then-burning areas and moreso to see their reactions after going to what was left of their homes. They looked so shocked and lost.

Range Front Fault
Guest
Range Front Fault

Yes… the stress anticipating the coming collapse–civil war–tyranny is here and gathering steam. We’ll all be partial zombies as The Troubles make themselves known. Condolences you had to go through the fire.

Member
Ostei Kozelskii

Brilliant piece, Z. And honestly, it had never occurred to me that democracy is about persuasion rather than truth. Now that you mention it, it seems pretty obvious. Thank you for pointing it out.

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

Edward Bernays smiles.

Member

One of the framers of our constitution remarked that the kind of government we were setting up would require the support and participation of a moral people. If not, he said, no laws known would be able to keep the nation safe.

Official Bologna Tester
Guest
Official Bologna Tester

Iniquity is a feature, not a glitch. Timothy B. Tyson said: “In a fallen world marked by human depravity and deep-seated sin, in a world where Hitler and Stalin had recruited millions of followers to commit mass murder, love must harness power and seek justice in order to have moral meaning. Love without power remained impotent, and power without love was bankrupt.” Neil Gaiman said: “You see, evil always contains the seeds of its own destruction. It is ultimately negative, and therefore encompasses its downfall even at its moments of apparent triumph. No matter how grandiose, how well-planned, how apparently… Read more »

Lineman
Guest
Lineman

Yes OBT agree but that time between their rise and downfall contains a lot of death and if we aren’t doing something to protect ourselves from that then us and our prodigy will be wiped out…

Penitent Man
Member

Official, Maybe this thing is just cyclical and by happenstance of timing we find ourselves in the downward phase of the great turning. Maybe we should worry less about making repairs to the declining machinery of our part of this cycle. I sense we happy few who gather here to discuss the world we’ve inherited are beginning to absorb the answer to the tidal wave of degeneracy, isolation and decline we face. Outside of a few extreme ideologies it doesn’t really matter the nuances what we choose to build. All of these constructs eventually degrade to kibble (to borrow from… Read more »

NITZAKHON
Guest

Agree 100%. The same with business. There is nothing wrong with the pursuit of profit so long as it is restrained by MORALITY and a PUTTING OF ONE’S OWN COUNTRY FIRST.

Do you remember that video of the Carrier executive announcing the closing of a plant? All the warmth of an alligator after a chilly night. It was all about profits, and shareholders, and NOTHING about the lives of the people working there.

TomA
Guest
TomA

Our political system evolved into a liars den because that is what our current cultural environment selected for. The ancient evolutionary drivers that produced our high intelligence, skill of innovation, and robustness were the end result of our ancestors running a daily gauntlet of hardship and existential threat. In the current environment of high affluence and the extinction of real hardship, these drivers now select for skillful parasitism, of which, lying becomes a very useful trait.

Exile
Member
Exile

This post ties in with yesterday’s theme as well. Haidt’s work eg “Righteous Mind” posits that reasoning evolved as a means of persuasion, not truth-finding. Unlike math which is a uniquely closed wholly abstract system, the application of logic to human affairs via syllogisms, analogy & argumentation is first an exercise in rhetorical persuasion, with objective precision merely being a possible by-product. Despite the superficial logic of free market and liberal democratic arguments, guys like Pat Buchanan & Tucker Carlson changed sides because the real world results of those theories were net negative to outright miserable. “Because we live here”… Read more »

Stina
Guest
Stina

Huh. How fascinating. I was just this past Friday thinking about how steady-state pricing and the absence of price haggling might be a product of a high-trust society.

MikeatMikedotMike
Guest
MikeatMikedotMike

“After all, persuasion is a form of lying”

I don’t necessarily see it this way. In the context of trade, persuasion is a form of marketing, and marketing is a form of lying, but outside of trade not all persuasion requires one to lie.

If I persuade my drunk friend to not drive home drunk by citing the potential negative consequences of doing so, I haven’t lied, have I?

Abelard Lindsey
Guest
Abelard Lindsey

Modifying or repealing section 230 of the 1996 telecoms act would be sufficient to deal with the problems of censorship on the part of the tech giants.

John Gritt
Guest

The Z Man thinks as a child thinks: “After all, persuasion is a form of lying and democracy is about persuading people, not arriving at the truth.” Persuasion is not a “form of lying.” Persuasion is the art of appeal to someone’s emotions to get them to act. The faggot Z Man does a poor job of persuasion at the end of every blog post of his: “For just five dollars a month you can help feed a starving dissident … less than the price of a craft beer or a coffee at Starbucks.” The always dopey Z Man goes… Read more »

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

Your frivolous name-calling of our host drains the persuasiveness of your arguments. Not well played.

the Russians
Member

I dunno, ad-hom is just so irresistibly convincing… 😉

Official Bologna Tester
Guest
Official Bologna Tester

Dear John Gritt. Here’s something from Wikipedia I think you should read and contemplate.Perhaps it will help you to modify your attitude. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Matrix
Guest

“But I had not the strength nor the inclination to bandy words with a drunkard.”
True Grit

John Gritt
Guest

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VrFV5r8cs0

It is a good thing you know yours, Matrix.

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

“appeal to someone’s emotions to get them to act”

I’m persuaded! Let me make the introductions: face, meet fist.

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

I fell for it! Please delete my above, I apologize for the extra work.

Penitent Man
Member

Interesting interview concerning this topic and genetics with Edward Dutton.

Dunno, found it interesting but then again I am easily fooled into thinking things are more interesting than they are when presented in an English accent.

https://redice.tv/red-ice-radio/race-differences-in-ethnocentrism

ChrisZ
Guest
ChrisZ

Know ye not that the market was made for Man, not Man for the market?

ChrisZ
Guest
ChrisZ

Ever since America entered its phase of pagan-Jewish dominance, the societal critiques of Jesus have a renewed vividness.

Member

Those despicable clowns who would allow Armed Government Workers to vote should read this.

https://dailycaller.com/2019/06/22/mom-protest-drag-queen-story-hour-sniper/

Lance_E
Member

You’re mixing up price controls and price transparency.

Price transparency (good) says consumers need to understand the real cost, not have it obfuscated by insurance and other government “incentives”. Price controls (bad) is when some lunatic decides that goods and services have an objectively-quantifiable “value” that is independent of market forces.

King Tut
Guest
King Tut

Low trust. It fits. The low-T society.

Member

The error is in assuming Government regulation can fix anything. If you have a high trust society, you need extreme penalties for violation. You won’t try to gain at the expense of a fellow church member. But you can’t do the same with complete strangers, and FICO scores aren’t a substitute for honor. The cost of having low-trust people or culture is the destruction of liberty and the micromanagement and it is not very efficient. With regulation the tax is explicit, but even without, things like shoplifting add to the pricee charged. The choice is ultimately to adopt the lowest… Read more »

Carrie
Guest

“……can help feed a starving dissident in Lagos….”
You have a fantastic sense of humor, Mr. Z.
(Coming from someone who used to work from one of those global do-golden organizations…. )

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

“For just five dollars a month you can help feed a starving dissident in Lagos. That’s less than the price of a craft beer or a coffee at Starbucks.”

Haha! Touche’, well done.
Take that, rascallions and rumpswabs!

dad29
Guest

About the “curiosity” discussion, here’s a relevant passage from Pope Leo XIII: “What naturalists or rationalists aim at in philosophy, that the supporters of liberalism, carrying out the principles laid down by naturalism, are attempting in the domain of morality and politics,” Leo XIII wrote in Libertas: “The fundamental doctrine of rationalism is the supremacy of the human reason, which, refusing due submission to the divine and eternal reason, proclaims its own independence, and constitutes itself the supreme principle and source and judge of truth. Hence, these followers of liberalism deny the existence of any divine authority to which obedience… Read more »

Ivan
Guest
Ivan

I can see why there is a need for sacred knowledge but not why it should necessarily be forbidden, or why Catholics deserve to be the sole regulators of it. Pope Leo seems to be saying that rationalism leads to materialism and spiritual death. I think that is true for most people today but not for everyone. My curiosities have led me to believe in that which is not tangible. When asked about religion I can say earnestly say I believe in Gods. Which is what most humans believed for most of human history before “Science” and Zoroastrianism. E Michael… Read more »

Fred
Guest
Fred

See if this helps. Aquinas argues that studiousness is not inherently sinful, but that it’s virtue depends on the following: 1) it must pursue knowledge of truth 2) it must not have prideful or other sinful aims 3) more important obligations must not be neglected in pursuit of knowledge 4) knowledge must must be pursued through lawful teachers and not through superstitious curiosity, e.g., the occult 5) its proper end is knowledge of God 6) the student must know his limitations and not fall into error http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3167.htm “Curiosity”, for Augustine and Aquinas, also connotes a kind of busybodiness, or undue,… Read more »