How To Sell Soap

Exactly no one is excited about cleaning their clothes or scrubbing a stain from the carpet. If you own a pet, you never look forward to their accidents on the rug or their decision to put their dirty paws on your best trousers. Cleaning up messes, figuring out how to get that stain off the couch cushion, getting the carpets cleaned, these are chores we all do, but we don’t look forward to them. It’s just a part of life, like cutting the grass or cleaning the gutters. No one goes on lawn care vacations or stain removal holidays.

If you are in the business of selling soap, you have to get over the fact that the mere mention of your product makes people think about a boring task or the dog leaving a pyramid on the rug.  No matter how good your product is at doing its thing, if it brings negative images to the mind of the customer, they will associate you and your product with unpleasant thoughts. It why portable toilet vendors pick cheeky names for their companies. They want you laughing when you think of them.

The infomercial guys, who sell miracle cleaners, are good examples of people who understands how this works. They are super upbeat and they do small things to flatter the viewer. “You have frequent parties and one of your guests spills red wine on your brand new carpet!” He’s saying you have good tastes and people like you, which is why everyone comes to your house to be sophisticated and cool. It’s cheesy, but flattery works for a reason. The pitchman makes his audience feel good about the sale.

These guys also know how to avoid negative associations. They love using the red wine example, even though their typical customers drink domestic beer from a can. Well, red wine is a stand-in for blood. If they used a severed hand to drip blood on the white cloth, people would be horrified and associate the product with a negative image. No one fondly remembers getting their hand caught in the snowblower. Instead, the pitchman uses wine and all the happy talk about you being the cool kid on the block with lots of parties.

The thing is, everyone has had a mishap. You’re working around the house, something goes wrong and you’re running for the first aid kit. In the process you made the hall carpet look like a crime scene. Or, you’re at work and you don’t notice the paper-cut and now you have blood on your favorite shirt. That miracle product to get the red wine stain out is just what you need, but you don’t want to be is reminded of it by the happy pitchman on television. It’s why the good pitchman avoids creating negative associations.

Even the high energy super-positive TV pitchmen runs into a problem of negative associations. That’s because Americans associate the lone pitchman with the grifter, the con artist and the guy who takes advantage of the foolish. That’s because we have a long tradition of these guys. The snake oil salesman, the patent medicine salesman, various door-to-door salesman, are all stock characters for the disreputable sharpie who blows into town and sells you a monorail.

You may be the most honest guy on earth, but as soon as you get out there to sell your soap as the fast talking pitchman, most people are going to think you are, at the minimum, a liar. It’s unfair and unjust, but you will never change that perception. You can be the most honest and forthright soap salesman on earth, but that view of you and your kind is etched into the culture. It’s why those TV guys always rely on allegedly objective authorities or unimpeachable demonstrations. They know you don’t trust them.

Life is unfair sometimes.

The point of all this is that if you want to sell a product, you have to avoid associating it with negative images held by the public. That means you are going to have to use red wine instead of a severed hand to demonstrate stain removal. No, you will not be true to your faith, but you will get customers. You also have to accept the fact that a lot of stuff happened before you came along. If you associate yourself with confidence men of the past, people are going to assume you are a con-man too. That’s reality.

Good salesmen never lose sight of reality. That’s the problem with outsider political movements. They allow themselves to be trapped in narrow ideological ruts so any sales effort, that deviates in the slightest from dogma, results in civil war. The only pitchmen the ideologues accept are the guys waving around the severed hand, talking about how their product is great at cleaning blood stains. Any concession to public sensibilities is treated like heresy. The result is a self-ghettoization of the movement.

This has always been the problem with the libertarians. You can get a large audience in favor of limiting state regulation of commerce, but you are never getting a critical mass around the idea of abandoning paper money. You can talk people into loosening up marijuana laws, but no one is signing up for legal meth sales. That’s why the limit on libertarians is to have some of their language appropriated by Buckleyites. Otherwise, they are seen as a collection of eccentric weirdos.

That’s what’s happening with the alt-right and its fellow travelers. The core believers refuse to give in on basic tactics, like banning Nazi gear or minimizing the JQ stuff. The result is anyone that tries to soften the image is attacked as a traitor. That’s what you see with the Stormies. Anglin can’t accept even the token compromises at a site like Gab, so he goes to war with it. This ensures that his followers never stray from the ghetto that he has created for them. It also means potential recruits have a reason to ignore him.

This does not mean the alt-right is condemned to having fat guys in their tighty-whities, dancing around at their events. To avoid that fate, they need to produce leaders with the credibility to swat down guys like Anglin, when he gets out of control, but also aware of the fact that growing the movement means appealing to the general public. That means softening the pitch and making some compromises. They don’t have anyone capable of doing that at he moment, but they better find some.

95 thoughts on “How To Sell Soap

  1. “The core believers refuse to give in on basic tactics, like banning Nazi gear or minimizing the JQ stuff.”

    I say this with respect Zman, because I respect you and your insights….in your recent podcast you admitted that the jews run the West. Ok….well how’s that going? Since 1965 they have gained hegemonic power in nearly every realm besides voting numbers (they used our tax dollars to get around that problem).

    Have things gotten better or worse for Whites? Based upon your writings, unquestionably the latter. If the people in control aren’t responsible for the grim trajectory, who is? If our woes are due to inevitable cyclical civilizational rot, then why are you bothering yourself trying to hold back the ocean with a broom? That would mean Cicero’s efforts were likewise pointless, and apparently humans are incapable of learning from past mistakes.

    I hesitate to assign motives to you, because thus far I haven’t heard you explain your thoughts on the JQ beyond a vague impression that it just made you uncomfortable. Perhaps you don’t want the target on your back that comes with discussing it. That’s your choice, but I don’t see how you logically square the circle:
    A: Jews control the west
    B. Our civilization is facing collapse
    C. Let’s not talk about A…..A is unimportant.

    Perhaps you think our dire situation is due to a laundry list of issues, and the JQ is but one small piece? Yet for nearly problem we face, it’s easy to document that our (((hostile foreign elite))) has altered the prior course to their benefit, and our detriment.

    To date, the cucky, “let’s be gentleman and eventually our good deeds will pay dividends.” has led us here. These people want to genocide us. Personally, I can’t say protecting our enemies feelings ranks high on my to-do list. The elite’s panic over the AltRight tells me we are doing something right.

    As for the effect of LARPy Nazi imagery on recruitment – we’re not going to attract Boomers. Period. They are hoping the collapse happens the day after they die and do not want to risk dem programs and checks…which is much of the reason they virtue signal – that and they like to pretend the nation is in a Reagan’s 1st term condition.

    Gen Z will have to live in the “Whites are the Untouchables caste” dystopia the jews are fashioning, and they, like you, have noticed who is in charge, but aren’t nearly as sanguine….and perhaps comfortable.

    • JQ doesn’t have the potential appeal of other “hate facts” because it’s pure conjecture. Unlike HBD there are no IQ averages or crime stats. All you have is an overrepresentation of Jews in influential positions, which to an outsider appears no less benign than overrepresentation of black sprinters or male computer programmers. All the JQ and CofC stuff is just guess work.

  2. Here’s an idea for you sniveling little faggots:
    NOBODY knows for sure how to turn this thing around. Not you, not Zman, not Richard Spenser, not Anglin. NOBODY.
    So let everyone innovate & experiment & we will see what gains traction & what doesn’t
    Your role is to pick the approach that you think is best, throw your full weight behind it, AND STOP WORRYING ABOUT WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE DOING.
    P.S. Stop listening to what the news says.
    PPS Just remember that every punch you aim right dies our enemies work for them.

  3. Considering the mess the neo-fundie Left is making of things politically, I can understand why the Founding Fathers were so keen to keep religion out of politics as much as possible.

    • Their object was made clear: to keep religion out of politicking and politics out of religion while expecting religion to form the politician and the people. “Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.” They loathed atheism for the body of work that it had already produced.

  4. Let met get this straight. The United States is now, probably, and despite what the census claims, around 50% White, and dropping. And a large portion of those are elderly and will soon not be with us. The left has gone into full Bolshevik mode, with the majority of the political and economic establishment supporting them and we’re on the cusp of a “Russian” style revolution. The internet, the final platform to gather and speak freely is quickly being reigned in and we’re in the closing days of such sites as this.
    BLM and Antifa are effectively carrying out acts of terror with the implicit or explicit support of both federal and local officials and the smell of gulags and mass graves for Whites is in the air, but despite all that, we should be trying to sell “normies” our point of view?

    The Titanic is going down and people are drowning, but you’re saying we need to sweet talk those in the water to get into the lifeboats?

    I guess my counter argument would be that we don’t need to sell a thing. The course of events are creating the demarcation lines. Our message is to the point and obvious: you may not be interested in race war, but race war is interested in you. The left are telling us this now, in no uncertain terms.

    The “normies” are either being forced into our direction or they’re choosing seppuku in front of a Martin Luther King Statute.

    Two options now. Nothing to sell. Costumes and regalia don’t factor into it.

    • This is a great line: ” you may not be interested in race war, but race war is interested in you.”

      However, costumes and regalia still do figure into it. Choosing trappings of a past murder cult is obviously stupid and counterproductive, especially if our aim is to enlist help fighting a murder cult.

      • Everybody is somebody else’s murder cult. That’s Victimology 101.

        This is not an issue of enlisting anyone. If you’re White, you’re drafted.

        • A severely battered young country the size of Missouri almost took over Europe (and the World, we were told)-
          Such losers, eh?

  5. I agree with your assessment completely Zman, but I don’t understand why you do not think that is what Vox Day is trying to do with Anglin. I am sure some of what he is doing is personal, but I think his initial attempt to get rid of the naziism was exactly what you describe above. The problem is the nazis are insane, and we have many on are side who do not want them removed.

  6. How nice. Zman took a break from assuring us that things were gonna start getting back to normal any minute now to do a little concern trolling & tone policing of the AltRight.
    Thanks for the advice to compromise & cuck like every other right wing movement fishing for that elusive Normie love.
    But we’ve got a better plan. We stay passionate & principled, even if it keeps our numbers down a bit.
    Then we don’t run for office ourselves. We let the mainstream republicans dance their jigs to sell that soap to the masses.
    But our support can only be had in exchange for policies that serve white interests.
    A close analogy would be the evangelical Christians I. The 80s & 90s; Too few to ever put their guys into national office. But every GOP candidate needed to be okayed by them to have a shot.

    • If white people lose in this country, people like you will be a big part of the reason why. Nazi imagery is poison. 99.9%(might be low) of white people want nothing to do with it. If you want the movement to succeed, you will need better numbers that that.

      • Faggots like you are why whites are losing this country now.
        Pro Tip: You can’t resist something if you’re too big a coward to even say out loud what you’re resisting.

  7. Look no further than the recent fundraising efforts by the Democrats to see how well a message that swings between negativity and political nihilism sells. The checkbooks have closed. No donors want to fund this crap.

  8. I just read this thinking it was a commentary on how the NFL has allowed the BLM crap to completely infect their product.. and now with Trumps’ calling them out, the lines are drawn. Are you a patriot? Do you love your country and sick of politics in sportsball games? Trump set a trap on Friday night, sprung it on Saturday, and it keeps getting better. In 24 hours, Trump has ruined the NBA and the NFL…. they just don’t know it yet.

    • So vitally important. So that’s the real game.
      Obama holdover DOJ, HUD, CFPB lawsuit ‘settlement’ policies are slush funds for “protest groups”.

      ACORN redux on a nationalized scale.
      The brownies and greenies are looting the whities.

      Few know that this type stuff was Obama’s entire career. I laugh when my Trump-hating friends tell me it’s Trump who got elected just so he could rob the country.

  9. “The point of all this is that if you want to sell a product, you have to avoid associating it with negative images held by the public.”

    There was an old Porterfield cartoon, with a manager at ‘Fullbean Paints’ regretfully telling one of his executives, “We’ve sold 10,000 gallons of ‘Robin’s-Egg Blue’ and 15,000 gallons of ‘Harvest Gold’, but we’ve yet to sell a single gallon of your ‘Toilet White’.”

  10. The alt right can never be successful for three reasons

    1. Racism is repugnant most people

    2. Alt fighters are mostly failed human beings

    3. No Black Men. For an Orginization to be successful there must Boack Men so that women (especially white girls) will be attracted

    • Yeah, that’s the ticket, mudsharks and Ns are required for political success. Tiny, I believe you are thinking of a prison organization, they have lots of Ns, and some mudsharks, no wonder they are so successful.
      Americans love raycisms, like mom and apple pie. Never doubt that.

  11. I think what would help things tremendously in general is if people would ditch ideology altogether and be honest about their political interests instead of trying to dress up their interests in moralistic or ideological clothing.

    Then perhaps like in the old days, people can come together and do the horse trading they used to when reconciling their political interests.

    I’m not holding my breath though.

    • Oh my gosh yes. We’re fighting over religious terminology instead of addressing the real, the results.

      We end up sounding like a student council.
      How long was the argument “who’s a real conservative?” while the corrupt and crazy took over the world.

    • A heck of a lot of moralizing is just a mask for self-interest, anyway. Just be above board with it.

  12. Nope, won’t work.

    We can’t “compromise” because it will be seen as a sign of weakness. We are not selling a product, we are selling a civilization. Strength and virility is what we need to project, not virtue signalling against badwhites. Who exactly are alt-righters signalling to when they loudly declare their anti-Nazism? Redpills are aware you’re not a Nazi, but everyone else has been fully conditioned to associate Nationalism with Nazism. You’d basically have to adopt African children to prove to a normie that you’re “totally NOT a Nazi, like, really, really NOT a Nazi, at all.”

    We need to push the JQ in fun and creative ways. We need to use the Nazi association instead of discarding it. We need to defuse normie conditioning with humor and wit. If normies are entertained and laughing about the JQ, they’ll clutch their pearls less.

    Don’t make the mistake of believing you have to appeal to GenX and Boomers. They’re the ones who do the most pearl clutching over NAZIS! because the TV has told them to for a long, long time. Appeal to the youth instead. Use humor and raw masculine virility. Golden Dawn does this well. They always have big, powerful looking men in black shirts selling their brand. Young men want to be them and young women want to be with them. That’s how you sell a civilization.

    • I’m one of those evil, selfish, cucked boomers in a racially mixed marriage, and I don’t have one problem with anything you said. We need a big tent right wing that embraces itself, and not one damn trait of the left.

      By the way. In saying what I’ve said I am not repudiating one single thing about the way I have conducted my life. I lived it the best way I knew how and am happy with it. It is hard to imagine how things could have turned out any better.

      What I’m getting at is that there’s a time and purpose to everything and the time for the right to get along with, and be comfortable with itself in all its aspects is now. Being afraid of some new Hitler is as stupid as thinking Barney the dinosaur will win the presidency. But some people do that and it keeps them from being able to fight the other side.

      You don’t prepare to go into battle by cutting your own Achilles tendon . This is a lesson the right has yet to learn.

    • Yes, going full Fuhrer will work any day now. This is either the work of a paid Soros infiltrator or someone with no understanding whatsoever of human nature.

      Hitler was a massive failure, no one wants a neo-Pagan made up garbage (want to sacrifice your cute young Niece to Wotan?) and yes, the West is fundamentally Christian in heritage and outlook; the marriage of Greek Humanism with Jewish monotheism spread by Roman organization. Jesus in particular in the Gospels sounds a lot like Aristotle. And was called a Teacher by his Disciples.

      Richard Spencer is obviously a Soros paid plant working to discredit the Alt-Right, the way David Duke has for years. Neither has any real source of income, mysteriously have money to travel to things where their appearance is a disaster for the Right. And both could not do a better job for Soros.

      The way to succeed is not another moral panic over Jews, and following Hitler. Most people figure that after the Jews, they’re racially impure enough that they’ll be next.

      If you want to push buttons, celebrate Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson and Judah P. Benjamin, as warriors for liberty and freedom; most White Americans still like and admire Lee and Jackson as principled and chivalric soldiers who fought for a doomed, lost cause with dignity.

      • Yea, but there’s no such thing as Confederate fetish porn. Lots of Nazi fetish porn though.

        We’re actually not trying to appeal to stuffy old Churchians who value “respectability” over victory. We want to appeal to the base nature of the human species. Nazis are the baddest badboys ever. We can use this to bring young men and women in to the movement and strike fear into our enemies, but it’s all about tact and game.

        If some hysterical lefty calls you a NAZI! just smirk, comb your “Richard Spencer” haircut and say that’s ridiculous, you’re not a Nazi. Then, if their Jewish, ask them if they want to go camping.

        Be tough, rebellious, yet charming. Find your inner Marlon Brando.

    • People like you are the reason normies are scared of the alt-right., They know the GOP and Democrats are DOA and useless. And I’m not talking about 20 somethings but people successful people in their 40’s and ever 60’s. They know system is broken and society is seriously screwed up. Talk to a lot of 40+ tech workers frozen out of a job because of H-1B and they are “red pilled” as hell as is the factory worker who lost his his job to off-shoring.

      We need to bring them in.and there are millions of them. Because they’re bright, hard working and mainstream. Build a movement around them and you have something. Nazi LARPers are just trouble and scare everyone else off.

      As to who caused it? You’re way off target. The average American has had zero input on all the big issues like NAFTA to TPP and everything in between. The ones who make the decisions are those from f Silicon Valley billionaire club, Wall Street Bankers, Chambers of Commerce. IOW the people who own the Senators and House.

      Yeah a lot of Boomers are self-absorbed moral lepers but they can’t hold a candle to the people who wrecked this nation. Save your ammo for them,.

  13. I hate to say it, but like in the 1930s, all the Nazis need to do is just look relatively reasonable compared to the far left loonies er, communists that they will be compared with. After all, that’s how the Nazis were able to win the quiet support and muscle of German industry leaders, even though most of them didn’t like or agree with most of the NSDAP ideology. They looked at the commies lunging at their throats and threw their lot in with the alternative.

    This is what happens when the center crumbles and nobody’s willing to compromise on anything anymore. The fringe polarities battle it out for who’s going to be in charge.

    • The industrialists were easy to gain the support of, they are defined by greed. The Nazis blew a giant credit bubble (MEFO bills) and bought their support; the MIC is as old as Methusela.

      Leverage in the MEFO bills system was a state secret.

      • You can be assured though, that the commies would not have done the same for them. They would’ve been lucky to have escaped in permanent exile. Most likely the commies would’ve hung them from a tree. Germans did hang people back then.

    • Possibly the most under-studied period in modern history is Europe in the immediate aftermath of WWI. Most people in the US have no clue how narrowly much of eastern Europe and Germany avoided the same fate as Russia. Even in the US the Immigration Act of 1924 was substantially a reaction against events in Europe and the desire to not import left wing revolutionaries into the US. The marketing advantage the NDSAP had was their opposition to the guys (Bolsheviks) that had already racked up lots of bodies in trenches once in charge. People were willing to take a bet (including the German economic elite) on the guys that might turn out to be “ok”. Bad bet as it turns out, but in the same position what would anybody choose today?

    • There was a legitimate fear of Communism, both internal (“Jewish Bolshevism”) and invasion by the Soviet Union. So, even religious individuals supported the Nazis as the lesser of two evils. The Nazis, at first, did posture as defenders of traditional morality vis a vis the pervasive moral degeneracy of the Weimer Republic. Hitler was photographed holding an old Bible, etc.

      Great post!

  14. Rather than ban the wackjobs why not control them like the left does ?

    The left is unapologetic for their crazies but yet demand we eliminate ours. It’s like squaring off with a street fighter using Queensberry rules.

    Most organizations have a myriad of rules and regulations you’re supposed to follow, but once hired or accepted you find out that most of them are rarely ever enforced. ( Unless of course their looking to terminate you. )

    Present the alt right to the public as no-nonsense by the book organization and yet let some of the weirdos in just like the left does.
    Let them do battle with the left’s kooks and if their little dust-up ends up on the nightly news just feign disbelief.

    The NRA comes to mind. They must have more than their fair share of lunatics, but they take their money anyways and put on a good front for the general public.

    • Kick the lunatics out. They’re mentally unstable and hence unpredictable. You want to distance any movement from them as far as possible. They add nothing but trouble,.

      Your understanding of the NRA is certainly twisted to say the least. The NRA has never attracted nor wanted the sort of lunatics you admire. They want normies or mainstream whites who are successful, stable and have money. Same with the Jewish version of the NRA.. There is no place for crazies in the NRA. In fact the crazies hate the NRA.

      This is why the NRA is successful and has serious political influence. They’re smart, organized and have money. You get that way by attracting the sort of people who are competent, stable and have disposable income. That means good PR in form of a periodicals, seminars, workshops to help spread their message and show they are responsible members of the community. Hell the MSM has all but given up demonizing them because nothing sticks to them.

      Now that’s impressive.

      Whereas the alt-right is still walking around with a kick-me sign on their backs because their current leaders are defective or worse s**t magnets. who have zero f**king clue about PR and selling the alt-right.

  15. The right wing has a lot of different parts which are not, and never will be, interchangeable. If we can get past the point of everybody trying to play sheriff and force conformity on all of us maybe we can get somewhere.

  16. I like the analogy but its being applied to the wrong problem. We aren’t going to vote (sell) our way out of this.

  17. all this talk of “selling” and “marketing” and “building” an alternative party is a category error. that is the “build it they will come” approach; i.e. more of the same with a different name. the nazi cadres were military veterans, every one of whom were willing and eager to fight. they *took* control they did not *ask* for it. and that is the only way something new will arise here or anywhere else on god’s green earth. anything short of that is just a cuck daydream.

    so look left for what’s coming next, because the only thing coming from the right is chin music…

    • Agreed. It will be either the Communists or the National Socialists.

      Leftists already think in terms of race and group identity so they could easily become good National Socialists given incentive and a little time. If a National Socialist movement prospers it will be mostly ex-leftists.

      The right won’t unite, but the left does this easily. They are much more dangerous than many on the right imagine because of that unity of purpose. Their lack of martial skills and weapons training can be remedied in 3 months of training. The rights constant bickering can’t be.

      The Alt-Right can effect the culture and acceptability of certain taboo subjects but they are poorly positioned mentally to take advantage of any opportunities.

      • Recently someone examined the fearsomely deep, entrenched organizing industry of the Left.

        Organing IS their industry, that’s why the issue is never the issue.

        The idea seems to be create chaos, while preparing to dominate and offer order once the rest are balkanized and fighting each other.

        Thus, Cloward-Piven or Coudenhove-Kalergi: government dependence is always primed to be easily overwhemed by it’s own impossible demands.

        • Some of us are, per the American tradition, fighting for liberty, not power. Which is why the DR/AR needs to repel bile like you and McHungus – you can’t be trusted anymore than any other totalitarian.

          I’m not giving up on the American project because the assholes on the left and the assholes on the other left have decided to go to war.

          • As John Adams noted

            Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

            The current population is not moral and only 1/3 of young people are White and Christian which is the people the document was written for

            well English white Christians with a smattering for other liberty minded European folk actually

            The Constitution and “Muh Liberty” is a dead letter issue, has been since the war on drugs and as such a lot less people care about the fine details

            They want order and prosperity and need an end to Leftism

            The minarchist state created by the founders won’t work in a world with computers , home CRISPR labs , rampant automation , nukes (must have a standing army) meth or any of the other delights of modern technology and it has no effective defense against Leftist subversion either.

            whatever comes after must be subversion resistant (aka Right Wing authoritarian) and willing to control trade and technology as needed.

            We don’t have to like it, I don’t but there really isn’t an alternative

    • The Nazi cadres weren’t military veterans to a man, or even for the most part. A lot of them were too young for the First World War and played soldier on the old parade grounds around Tempelhof or on the sand at Wannsee and fantasized about what the war must have been like. Horst Wessel was only 11-years old when the Great War ended and he was about par for the course among the ranks in the 2nd World War (even though he died before the outbreak of hostilities).These kids were LARPing in the Wandervogel and other Boy Scout-esque youth and nature groups. The Freikorps and other paras were needed to kill commies and keep things from collapsing in Weimar Germany, and Hitler was right to regain the Ruhr, Sudetenland, to reject the Versailles “war guilt” clause and to make Anschluss with Austria. Almost everything else he did (including the Nero Decree) caused nothing but misery for Germans and Europe as a whole. Erwin Rommel was a warrior; Hitler and most of the Nazis he favored were politicians; the ones who actually were good soldiers in the Great War, like the ace Hermann Goering, achieved less favor with the fuhrer than the propagandists (like the club-footed Goebbels). Hitler used to make fun of Goering mercilessly (mostly for his weight and his hunting) and his best officers yearned to see him die.

      • you are right, the SA were not nearly as veteran-heavy as I thought they were. was not able to find any hard numbers, but given the numbers involved (3M at peak) not more than a small fraction would have been ex-military.

  18. I think they’ve done the appropriate thing by declining to nominate a true figurehead. A cooperating major-party is the moderate arm of any fringe political movement that matters. Alt-right figures seem to understand that what they’re doing is mostly cultural. They have all the right enemies and are positioned well to gain disenfranchised working and middle class ears. If both parties reject the zeitgeist it would be impossible to unseat them via third party anyhow.

    • Not having a figurehead is essential to the survival of the .alt right at this time as any figurehead would be immediately discredited, subverted or failing all that just killed at this point

      No leader, no target

      As for the anti Communist march, meh. That’s mostly for the militia crowd and given some of the marchers (not the militia crowd) are Nazis its almost to be expected. . Commies show up, the other Socialists will show up

      Lastly, re: removing unwanted elements. All the recent drama at Gab has been about just that The Nazis were butt hurt that they were sent packing from most of the .Alt Right for breaking basic rules like No Bellamy/Roman salutes in public . , No Nazi Uniforms that kind of thing. They figured they had friends since both sides are Pro White. Problem is Nazism and Hilterism suck and are for the time being (a few decades yet) really bad optics on top of that

      They 14-88 crowd has been retaliating in the usual way

      Its all understandable though , the .Alt Right is not remotely monolithic . , the 3%-Militia crowd , the Deus Volt Crowd (Vox Day and others) the White Nationalists (not Nazis or Supremacists) the I want the 80’s back /Alt Medium crowd. the small Heathen crowd , .Alt Right don’t agree on that much more than “more Whites, Saner social policies, little to no immigration”

      On top of that is the .Alt Lite . Pew Die Pie and Rebel Media and of course Milo among others are a brand not an ideology. Most are good folks , mean well but aren’t foundation for anything.

      Same with the NrX guys

      More white, Saner Social policy and reducing maybe even reversing immigration is probably enough , probably but it makes coordinated effort tricky .

      This is complicated by the Dues Volt crowd honestly thinks that Christendom is mandatory to survival even though its a fast waning meme in the West

      Still for a leaderless movement a few years old its doing pretty well. It has along way to go but its got a chance which is more than anyone else has.

      • Not having a singular leader has its advantages, but wasn’t that also supposedly the brilliant masterstroke of the Tea Party too? It didn’t stop them from being corralled and neutralized in just a few years. The disadvantage of a purely grassroots movement is that there’s no gatekeeper, and no one in charge of laying down and enforcing the rules, so anyone at all can join in and end up corrupting the host.

        The Left is only temporarily stymied by not being able to employ its Alinsky tactic of personalize-isolate-destroy. Lacking a genuine leader to focus on, they make do with ersatz targets. It doesn’t pack the same knock-out blow, but it spreads a lot of messy mud around and picks off enemies here and there, while splintering and demoralizing the main mass of the dissident Right. In the end, the Left has to be fought, beaten, and SEEN to be beaten. That won’t happen through evasive action; it just postpones the fight, and runs the risk that the Right will dissolve of its own accord without ever taking the field.

        • The Tea Party has had a hefty measure of success at the State level .

          Problem is that they had an impossible ideology, Federal government spending can’t and won’t be cut until the system falls apart .

          I’ve run the numbers in my head and on paper and it pencils out that we borrow basically everything other than Military, Social Security and Medicare and worse we are trillions on the whole and need massive more infrastructure spending

          The only way to get the money with less taxes is dramatic wage growth , doubling or the like

          Problem is that technology and a global production and labor surplus mean that wages are going to lower across the board

          With apologies for using Marxist terms but I haven’t found a better Capitalist terminology , its a combination of crisis of surplus production (more producers than buyers) and alienation from means of production (or just jobs really) leading to an economy where increasingly the only way demand for even basic goods can be satisfied is by the State

          The US is 40% GDP government and France like 60% !

          There are ways to reverse it, forced work sharing (lower work week) import controls , mass deportations and tax code changes but our elected officials benefit from the system far too much to change and are terrified of taking any risk anyway.

          As for the .Alt Right . They are fighting , Gamer Gate while not their doing is a visible victory as was the Election of .Alt Lite Trump and there are smaller campaigns re: football, Infogalactic and a hundred other projects happening here and there.

          Bigger political change is going to take more effort and a more coherent ideological effort though

          To be honest a lot of .Alt Right types assume and rightly I think that a collapse or civil war is a near inevitability and while they are fighting for a reboot, its probably a hopeless cause and it will come down to guns

          This does have a negative effects on participation but again it suits the American character which since the 70’s or so has been becoming far more atomized and distrustful

          As a slogan, there is no us in the USA

        • The Tea Party was easily co-opted and/or absorbed into the Republican Party itself, because the various groups around the country were started by average Joe and and Jane who knew nothing about politics and just wanted to make changes to the Republican Party platform, not tear it down.
          The Alt-Right is completely different from the Tea Party in that the ideas espoused aren’t mainstream or acceptable thought in today’s Overton Window. That means each group formed organically throughout the country already knows from their founding that they will not be accepted by the Republican Party and the party has no interest in subsuming them. Hucksters and party insiders saw the ideas coming out of the Tea Party being popular, so they took control from the various small groups, rolled it into the party platform, and smothered the movement like a baby in a crib.
          It should be a lesson to the Alt-Right, do not cuck on your message, by making it too “Normie Friendly,” doing so will allow the Republican Party to co-opt your movement. It’s a fine line-how to appeal to a broader base, and how not to lose the movement. Otherwise, you end up like the altogether useless and now consumed, “Alt-Liters,” who have devolved into nothing more than full time Trump cheerleaders. The actual base of the Republican Party is far more skeptical and willing to consider ethno-nationalistic policies than these self-proclaimed “civic’ nationalists, and as identity politics becomes stronger on the left, they will become even moreso.

  19. The point is that, unless the conditions that created the Nazis are replicated in America, then acting like Nazis, dressing like Nazis, and using their esoteric symbols and runes is not going to bring about the Fourth Reich (contrary to what both neurotic Jews and neo-Nazis want you to believe). Our recent sandbox fiascoes were bad, but more people died in a few hours in the Great War than in the last decade of combat operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. Americans eat crap food and people may fear the waning purchasing power of the dollar, but you don’t need a wheelbarrow of money to buy black bread mixed with sawdust and people are not stripping upholstery off seats in busses to keep from freezing to death in the winter. Maybe if Mark Zuckerberg runs for president in 2020 and wins, the Nazis might gain some traction in America as a viable party. I’d certainly hope so.

    • “acting like Nazis, dressing like Nazis, and using their esoteric symbols and runes is not going to bring about the Fourth Reich.”

      Using Charlottesville as everyone’s go-to example, I didn’t see anyone acting like a Nazi (what does that even mean? Jews in boxcars?), or dressing like a Nazi, or using esoteric symbols and runes.

      But by all means let’s keep buying the misrepresentations and pejorative appellations sold to us by the MSM, because they’d never lie to us.

      • You’re just so persecuted, aren’t you, weathering these “pejorative appellations”? I didn’t mention Charlotesville as my “go-to,” so why did you go to it? My guess is you did it in order to create your own straw-man just to burn him and then bask in the warmth of your flaming sanctimony.

        This is the thing I’ve never understood about the alt-right, the weird passive-aggressive stance toward the 3rd Reich. It reminds me of someone who talks a lot of shit about beating someone’s ass, sees the guy he claims he’s looking for in public, then blinks, shrinks away and pretends like he didn’t see him. I personally have known people who chanted all the “Lieder” and espoused NS ideology among coevals and then, when confronted about it (even by the most pussy antifa) claim it’s just irony/trolling.

  20. >> The point of all this is that if you want to sell a product, you have to avoid associating it with negative images held by the public.

    This raises the larger problem of the alt-right, or dissident right. They have no product to sell, only complaints about the current state of affairs. It remains reactionary in nature.

    The alt-right movement is going to be consigned to the remote corners of the internet until it develops a positive political agenda that can be sold to the public at large.

    Americans know that if we put the Democrats in charge for the next 30 years America will become, for the most part, a socialist democracy governed by the interests of blue states and cities. At least 62MM Americans rejected that vision. (Unfortunately, 65MM accepted it.)

    Americans know that if we put establishment Republicans in charge for the next 30 years we should, at least in theory, have a little less socialism and a little more federalism. Taxes should be a little lower, especially for corporations. Otherwise, it’s not clear there will be a major difference in the outcome.

    Americans have no idea what the country looks like in 30 years if the alt-right is in charge. This has to be addressed, and not by the likes of Spencer or Anglin.

  21. Good and timely points, Mr. Z!

    If you’re selling soap and someone else is selling dirt, you have a natural advantage. But if people believe your soap will harm them, you’ve got a problem. The dirt salesman will try to make people believe that; you don’t need to help him.

  22. For all the crap guys like McHungus throw my way, this is why I continually bring up the Judeo-Christian foundations of the west (as opposed to the pagan ‘fire dancing while wearing animal skins’ imagery many on the Alt-Right evoke).

    It gives a basis that people outside the movement can quickly grasp at a basic level, and as you go deeper into the history and meaning of the Bible stories, you begin to understand the relevance of them not just to the founding of the US, but the rise of pre-Rennaissnace Europe.

    Evangelical pastors may be the snake oil salesmen of our age, but they are successful because they sell a positive vision for the future for those who follow their lead. There are parts of the Biblical message that can be coopted and used to promote liberty and responsibility, the natural separation of the races, the need for defined borders, local control as opposed to mandates from the Imperial Capital, leaving the Mohammedans to kill each other, etc.

    But the desire to disassociate from anything that either of the two major parties also might believe is a self imposed handicap that seeks to create enemies for the sake of being a dick.

    It may be fun, but it’s a class clown act, not a strategy for effective changing of the status quo.

    And it gets stale fast, like the fries the class clown from 25+ years ago sold me and my kids last week.

    • you sure do have to tell yourself a lot of fairy tales, to sleep at night. and guess what snowflake, i can afford to eat at real restaurants.

    • The foundations of the West are Greco-Roman and have nothing to do with the gibberings of Talmud parsers.

      • I thought rewriting history was something the Left does, but apparently so does the pagan right. Go to any town more than 100 years old and you’ll see lots of buildings with pointy roofs and crucifixes on them. And these were built in an age by poor people who were living barely above subsistence level. Go the U.S. or the rest of the New World and there’s lots of similar buildings.

        Are you a Neocon? Because the Greco-Roman basis of the West is what they advocate.

        There’s no West without the baby Jesus. Now go and play with your runes.

        • Only 1/3 of young people in the US identify as White Christians (the total number of Whites is around 50% and change in that age bracket BTW with some upward trend

          This could be poz of course and the US could be ,ore than a bit whiter and more faithful , who knows

          The number people in the UK saying they are Christian is in theory 65% but no one attends church as the same survey they are not religious is the same, so “cultural Christian” only

          So figure the UK is around 80% White or so, its maybe 25% White Christian and in both US and UK cases this includes lots of people who don’t go to church or you know actually practice the religion

          Its not enough for a foundation and your critical software /memeplex just isn’t happening in the West period

          People are ,despite rather higher fertility rates among the faithful , less Christian is anything

          On top of that your devout states like Poland, Italy , Hungary and the like have lower native fertility that Social Democracies

          Sweden for example could get to native population growth with a meager 20% increase

          Whereas Poland would not even be stable with a 50% increase in the birth rate

          Religion isn’t working and its not the solution I’m afraid. And I’d argue if you can’t have a West without it you had either best come up with an alternative or your plans are politely fucked

  23. “To avoid that fate, they need to produce leaders with the credibility to swat down guys like Anglin, when he gets out of control, but also aware of the fact that growing the movement means appealing to the general public.”

    I don’t think we should swat down guys like Anglin……in public. Any disciplinary communication should not be aired in public. It should be private. This also provides cover for when the rogue disappears, but your tutorial on disposing of bodies makes it easier to solve these problems.

    This has been a problem for the right since the division between left and right became more obvious in the early 20th century. The right, or alt-right, is a defensive strategy. To conserve the present is really about retaining the past. This is not offensive in nature. Since anyone on the right knows that they are going to be attacked “offensively”, they have developed a policy about lashing out at anyone that criticizes them, even if the criticism is meant in good faith. The Alt-right, while being somewhat more offensive and proactive, is still defined by such behavior. There are a thousand different little Adolph’s and they jealously defend their fiefdom against all the other Adolph’s. Look at Vox Day. He has a core of followers that suck up to him and it seems to have gone to his head. He’s made a nice life for himself and views himself as more important than he is. His vendettas against others seems to be never ending. It’s all about promoting his brand. Same with Anglin. Any publicity is good publicity.

    Appealing to the general public is common sense, but this leads to compromise. Compromise is death to conservatism. Why? Because it is a defensive posture. Any compromise leads to losing more power and tradition. Multiply this over centuries and you see the problem for the right. The left doesn’t have this problem because they are always expanding their reach, or being “progressive” as they like to call it. They can take two steps forward and one step back and it is no problem. The get the step they gained now and the step they gave back on their next offensive. But, since conservatives take one step forward and two back, they follow a losing strategy. You are beginning to see more leftists criticizing other liberals. This is the process of eating their own. And a lot of it is watching the hildebeest acting out in public and realizing the optics look bad for their brand. The difference is that they never compromise on their ideology because they never compare it with reality and whatever policy compromises they make will be public policy in 20 years. Not so the right. Look at Charlottesville and the cuckservative backlash that Trump even participated in. When you are forced to fight a war on two fronts your strength will be divided.

    This is also why there is an inherent distrust of the leadership on the right, even the little Adolph’s. If the only thing you can count on your guru to do is to make trouble, muddy the water, stroke his own ego, and betray his base, there will be a hesitancy to fully engage.

    • Lots of good points. This “urge to purge,” feeling makes me uncomfortable. I feel like we are just retreading Birchers VS Buckleyites path, and I don’t want to do that.
      I’d also like to add, it was Vox Day who started the war with Gab, not Andrew Anglin. I read Anglin’s posts, he had told Torba to take down his post if it was going to get them banned from their registrar. IOW, he was willing to work with Torba and staff.
      Torba has an issue, and it isn’t really Day or Anglin-it’s incoherence. The whole, “infinite free speech,” thing without clear cut rules was always a ship waiting for an iceberg. Torba has compounded the issue by not being coherent on whose speech they will protect, and whose they won’t. Recipe for disaster.

  24. Well, the newest bright idea from the confederacy of dunces in the alt-right “leadership” is a “March Against Communism”, featuring such luminaries as Richard Spencer (ofcourse.wav), goat-sacrificing failed Senate candidate Augustus Sol Invictus, and Vanguard America, who go in for quasi-fascist imagery.

    Spencer has to go away, yesterday if possible. Regardless of what charming personal qualities he may have, he is complete poison for the Dissident Right. His mismanagement of Hailgate and Charlottesville caused the alt-right to be linked to some failed German nationalist party of the mid-20th century (can’t remember the name), he repeatedly engages in gay slapfights with other alt-right “leaders”, and he keeps staging tone-deaf public events featuring deservedly obscure personalities who cause normies to recoil in horror.

    The alt-right has the opportunity of a lifetime with Trump, and they’re blowing it with their refusal to police their own ranks in order to present a respectable public image. Spencer is a dilletant leaving a track record of failed or abandoned projects behind him. We need to find some grownups, and soon.

    • Spencer seems hell bent on creating conditions for gun violence at rallies. This means he is working for our enemies. McAuliffe clearly wanted gun violence in C’ville. I agree, new, more genuine leadership is needed.

    • Spencer is controlled opposition. he is in the business of leading the right into disasters. the media know this and thats why the always ask him to “represent the alt right ” when they want a quote.

      Isn’t it funny how he holds and event , normal people go, something nazish happens , everyone there is tarred and doxed . then Spencer moves on to the next one.

    • Vanguard America are the guys who organize things and have consistently gone into the streets, actually willing to take on Antifa. Without them, and others like them, we just have a bunch of hand wringers who write about the Alt-Right online, but don’t go out with their faces showing, to carp about optics, like a bunch of cuckservatives.
      As for a “March Against Communism,” I don’t know why anyone in the Alt-Right would be against that. What is more important to protest, in this day and age? Are you against going out and protesting, because having an online political party isn’t really an option. As for Spencer, he didn’t organize or plan the Unite The Right rally, it would’ve been hard for him to screw it up. Neither did Invectus, just for the record.
      As for having more “grownup” leaders, volunteer yourself! There is always a need for more grownups in any political movements, step forward and offer up yourself for a role. There are no true leaders of this movement, as it should be, but many decentralized individuals who get out there and make stuff happen. You can definitely be one of those.

    • You seem to think that the “‘Alt Right”” is some kind of organization, with structure and a Board of Directors. “Spencer needs to be removed…” By whom, you? Nobody in the Alt Right has the authority or the ability to punish or reward.

  25. the tv pitchmen typically have a lady assistant on stage with them, to deal with the con man associations. and i notice that the alt-right party in germany had a babe out front. same in france. the alt-right here isn’t gaining any traction due to things on the ground not being bad enough to cause masses of people to cry out for a savior.

  26. …..”if it brings negative images to the mind of the customer, they will associate you and your product with unpleasant thoughts.”

    So true. Every time somebody mentions the brand name “Democrat”, I think of Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, Hillary Rotten Clinton, Obummer, Antifa, Maxine Waters, Harry “the body” Reid, Regressives, and the list can go on and on and on. Very unpleasant thoughts indeed! 🙂

    Now to be fair for the Regressive Liberal reading here, Republican makes me think of RINOs, GOPe, Lindsay Graham, John McLame, Jeff Flake, Susan Collins, anybody named Bush, Paul Ryan, Mitch Mcconnell. etc, also unpleasant to think of too.

    • Trump, oddly enough, has benefited from having both parties attack him. The same is true of the media. A sizable number of people voted for Trump because he has all the right enemies.

      • Like Derbyshire said of Thatcher, “She was hated by all the people I hate.” My living standard/life in general have not changed since Trump was elected, except for the fact that people I don’t like have been running around like chickens with their heads cut off worrying that the world is going to end, so (best Colonel Klink voice): “I REGRET NOZINK!”

      • Indeed. I think most Dirt People know the system is rigged, they just wanted to create a little bit of misery for the Cloud People in retaliation for all the misery the Cloud People have inflicted on them over the years.

        • Owen – Interesting that you used the term “Cloud People” in reference to the globalist elite. I have always thought of this globalist elite as clouds floating above us, disconnected from and with no sense of fellow feeling with their ostensible fellow citizens. If they possess a sense of fellow feeling with anyone, it’s with the globalist elites in other lands.

          “Cloud people” and “dirt people” (that’s us). I’ll remember that.

      • There’s more to it than just being attacked from both sides. We haven’t ever had anyone like him before. Reagan could take heat and he could give a little back – but that was infrequent and polite. That’s as close as we’ve come to Trump.

        Trump is different though because not only does he give it back fast, hard, and nasty – he seems to have fun doing it.

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