Beautiful Losers

The response to last week’s show was interesting, in that I got a few queries about people I mentioned from the old days. I’ve noticed this before whenever I talk about the paleocons and their battles with the neocons in the 80’s and 90’s. Everyone knows about the neocons, at least they think they do, but the paleos seem to be fading from memory as they fade from the scene. It is a case of the winners writing the history books, so I thought a show about the paleocons would be something worth doing.

The original plan was to do a segment on the various people who made up movement, maybe read from their best work, but that would have been too long and too boring. I like doing these sorts of episodes, but this is not a history podcast. What I settled on is the formula I’ve used for other episodes. What’s interesting to me about the paleos is they were right about a lot of things, especially their own flaws, but they failed anyway. It is a great example of how having the facts on your side is not enough.

Putting the show together, what struck me is just how much overlap there is between the alt-right and the paleos. Despite this, you never hear the alt-right talk about these guys or credit them for their ideas. There is an anti-intellectualism to the alt-right that is maybe a reaction to the academic aesthetic of the paleos. We have a library full of writting by the paleocons, while the alt-right has dated livestreams and podcasts. Given how things worked out, maybe that’s a good thing, but it is something to consider.

This week I have the usual variety of items in the now standard format. Spreaker has the full show. I am up on Google Play now, so the Android commies can take me along when out disrespecting the country. I am on iTunes, which means the Apple Nazis can listen to me on their Hitler phones. The anarchists can catch me on iHeart Radio. YouTube also has the full podcast. Of course, there is a download link below. I have been de-platformed by Spotify, because they feared I was poisoning the minds of their Millennial customers.

This Week’s Show

Contents

  • 00:00: Opening
  • 02:00: The Origin Of The Paleocons
  • 12:00: Paleoconservatism In A Nutshell
  • 27:00: Why The Paleos Lost
  • 42:00: Learning From Failure
  • 57:00: Closing (Link)
  • Links: (Link) (Link) (Link) (Link) (Link) (Link) (Link) (Link)

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DeBeers Diamonds
Guest
DeBeers Diamonds

If you want to be a glutton for punishment, read the comedy gold of dying Boomercons in the comments here. Some people truly deserve what they get.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/02/donald-trump-wants-increased-immigration/

The Babe
Guest
The Babe

I notice that Jim Geraghty over there calls Trump’s SOTU speech a “home run.” Sheesh, these guys, man…

DeBeers Diamonds
Guest
DeBeers Diamonds

There are wealthy donors paying for this drabble. But, always counter-signalling to defend white liberals that never reciprocate. The POC mob wants blood, give it to them.

https://twitter.com/RichLowry/status/1093189811609968640

Federalist
Guest
Federalist

DeBeers, I don’t know if I should thank you for enlightening me or curse you for getting me to look at this.

As bad as I thought the comments were going to be, they’re far worse than I could have imagined.

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

Comments in most places are far worse than what I could have imagined. I hope and pray they represent some small sector of crazy people which the normies completely ignore. But I have my doubts, this stuff is being deliberately mainstreamed.

Member

I skipped the boomercon era and moved right to neo-nazism by 1975. It’s been much easier on my psyche. Hey, we’re among friends.

LineInTheSand
Guest
LineInTheSand

We who know you Epa are glad your family was so supportive of you in your transition to neo-Nazism.

Follow your bliss. Be the best you that you can be. Self actualize.

Have you seen Kyle? He’s about this tall.

Member

My family are too busy being fundamentalists to even know the difference between fascism and communism. Or care.

Rcocean
Guest
Rcocean

At least National Review is now OPENLY supporting open borders. Before, they would dishonestly pretend to be “open minded” on illegal immigration, or “against it, but….”

Drake
Guest
Drake

The end of the Paleo-Cons was Reagan picking Bush. He could have picked Buchanan or DuPont. He felt like he needed to shore up his support with the moderates, but destroyed actual conservatism in the process.

Member

The Joe Sobran piece is long but worthwhile.

Larkin Lover
Guest
Larkin Lover

What piece if that?

Toddy Cat
Guest
Toddy Cat

Buchanan and Derbyshire are often mentioned by Alt-Right types, but the overall attitude of many on the Alt-Right is that, after all, the Paleos lost, so there’s nothing to learn from them. Also, many Paleos were hated Boomers, so well, that’s that, then. Both of these attitudes are understandable, and I would hate Boomers too, if I was 25 years old, but the “Boomer Man Bad!” attitude doesn’t really get you anywhere. There’s a lot to learn from both Paleos and BoomerCons, if only what not to do…

Carl B.
Guest
Carl B.

Conservatism died when Buckley kicked the John Birch Society out from “mainstream conservatism.” The JBS was “Alt Right” before there was an Alt Right.

Reagan was a great leader but when it came right down to it, he did exactly what the Deep State told him to.

Thorsted
Guest
Thorsted

When I am in a discussion with leftist and the term “racism” is used, I say to them that all humans are by nature “corrupted”/biased towards the familiar and they with the term “racism” tries to make nature into nurture; That human nature is learnt and can be undone with intimidations like “racism”. The next point I go to is the paradox that the cultures they claim we shall be open to have the same biases. In most non-western cultures “the stranger” is a non-related with same religion and ethnicity. They don’t marry each other because they see each other… Read more »

Member

What is the song in the end?

You might think about making a mix CD with all your closing songs. I’d buy it

King Tut
Guest
King Tut

In respect of the “R” word, a possible analogy. I was at schoolboy in the 1970s at an all-boy state school in London. Insulting each other was practically a 24/7 activity and no big deal. However, there was one glaring exception. One boy could call another boy every name under the sun except for one accusation which was verboten: Queer. If you called another boy “Queer” you had better be prepared to put up your dukes and fight. No one could call anyone a queer without expecting immediate fisticuffs and no boy could suffer being called a queer because, if… Read more »

c matt
Guest
c matt

Looking forward to the podcast, having come of age around Pat Buchanan’s heyday. Always struck me why the Paleos did not have more success given how much sense they made, so particularly curious to hear your take on that. Here’s to hoping “Neo-Paleos” have more success.

JR Wirth
Guest
JR Wirth

Great podcast. One thing that kept coming to my mind is the futility that Buchanan and others were working with. The entire 20th Century was set up to be what it was in 1913 with the 17th Amendment. The only people securing our freedom (real freedom, not George W., securin’ the homeland freedom, so sad that the word freedom itself has been bastardized) were crusty, whiskey soaked old Senators, appointed by governors, in the cigar smoke filled libraries of the governors’ mansions. Once the brakes were removed and direct election was up and running in the upper chamber, the country… Read more »

Fred Zeppelin
Guest

Maybe it’s always been this way and I’m just a grump for bracketing the present instead of all human history. Buuuut… The big problem, which seems well-nigh insoluble, is that nobody in the formal public discourse which we’re supposed to understand to be “grown-up talk” can or will tell the truth about anything. Some simply don’t know what the truth is, some are incapable of recognizing it, some know part of it but are too cowardly or too compromised to say it aloud, some don’t have the conceptual or perceptual skills to allow the truth to become pronounceable. But one… Read more »

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

Everything is framed for appropriate consumption by the masses. Look at how this “Green New Deal” is being shopped around. Movies have a “fourth wall”, which is the occasional direct communication by the actors to the audience, apart from the story on the stage. Trump does bits and pieces of this. But most of what we get is staged and fake. Bezos sends dick pix, and now there are government investigations of the people who published the existence of them? When there is so much real and important crap to be dealt with? Unfortunately, Mencken is right, and we get… Read more »

Larkin Lover
Guest
Larkin Lover

Good podcast. I wished you had gone more into the biographies and thoughts and careers of the specific Paleocon figures. I want to propose a model, which I admit may be too extreme, but it’s what I theorize explains all this. Please correct me where I’m wrong. Neoconservatives represent Jewish power, in a continuum with their power on the far left. There is no real divide. It’s spectrum hegemony. The power emanates from media access, money, and control of the academy, but also simply high iq and racial loyalty which trumps other considerations. The paleocons, which represented the last vestige… Read more »

Larkin Lover
Guest
Larkin Lover

I’m not trying to be anti Semitic, I know the paleocons have their gottfrieds and the left their chomskys. I’m saying in general

Member

Try.

Ursula
Guest
Ursula

Full spectrum domination. They won.

Rcocean
Guest
Rcocean

Oh, so being a “good loser” was the only option? No it wasn’t. Like Z man stated, the Paleo’s took pride in losing, they didn’t even want to win! God, listen to Derbyshire, even after being driven out of respectable society – he’s primarily interested in drinking tea, making sardonic comments and showing how he’s keeping his stiff upper lip. And look at their dumb name “paleo-con” what the hell does it even mean? Its just an in-joke. Try selling that to anybody. Beautiful losers is the perfect title. Look, the Neo-Cons made it quite clear in the 80s they… Read more »

o11696967
Guest
o11696967

What is it you wanted Derb to do? He’s had a weekly podcast for the past 15 years or so. Still writes articles. Wrote a book. And he goes on any media outlet that will have him. I suggest you search Youtube for videos with Derb in them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWN3clhvSik

Derb has been on the outs a long time, but after that “letter to his son” article at Taki’s he was unpersoned hard.

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

Spot on, Larkin. Today and what is to come increasingly proves your point.

Citizen of a Silly Country
Guest
Citizen of a Silly Country

Being able to deal with being called a racist is huge for the Dissident Right, not because any of us care but because normie whites care – and care a lot. I used to own it when someone called me a racist, saying that anyone with half a brain would be a racist. But I noticed that while that worked just fine for me, it didn’t work to bring normie whites to our side. Now, I have two responses, typically one for liberals and one for color-blind conservatives who will use that phrase against you. For liberals, I mock them.… Read more »

Mike_C
Guest
Mike_C

This is very good. I do a similar thing, only what you say to conservatives I say to the liberals. To the conservatives I generally say something like “racism is now a term that is used to intimidate you into denying the evidence of your own eyes. Don’t fall for it.” My reasoning is that most liberals believe they are good people, and more importantly want public validation. To be called a bully and hypocrite for a lib is a shock because in their world view, WE’RE the bullies. As to the cons, rather than be in-your-face to a potential… Read more »

Member

There’s also the simple fact that the paleo’s lost, and losing has its drawbacks in terms of people wanting to listen to you. Also, the paleos still try to operate inside the system. There’s definitely an anti-intellectual component, but it’s probably more about losing.

Issac
Guest
Issac

I think the salient point is that paleos failed and shouldn’t be emulated. The fact that Trump sounded like a neocon sheep-dipped in a light coat of paleo for the SOTU should tell all anyone needs to know about the future of politics in the US. You are two for two there. Having said that, I fundamentally disagree with the parallel institution and society meme. Not because it is theoretically implausible or even undesirable, but because it is not practical. Resistance is only possible in the open, cloaked in humor, irony, subterfuge, etc, OR underground in highly decentralized and uncoordinated… Read more »

Citizen of a Silly Country
Guest
Citizen of a Silly Country

The phrase anti-white is a good one. People need a word to allow them to think about a topic. Once normie whites realize that there is such a thing as “anti-white,” they begin to wake up to all kids of things.

dad29
Guest

Thanks for a very balanced and cogent discussion of the history. Saw a note in the Wiki link about how three foundations: olin, bradley, and richardson-smith, pulled $700K away from Rockford Institute. Well…..the guy who ran Olin was brought over to Bradley (a Milwaukee based foundation) and Bradley was VERY nice to Charlie “3-Wives” Sykes.

No such thing as co-incidence.

Member

It seems like being part of the dissident right has been a long journey. More than likely I was dissident right from birth. I almost always had a hard time reading most of the NR offering. When they canned Derb it was an easy jump to light speed. Calling them pussies is being kind.

Tim
Guest
Tim

Z….Thank you for this. The 15 minutes on Learning from Failure hit me right on the side of the head. And I think for a lot of people, that’s what’s necessary. Tim

Dirtnapninja
Guest
Dirtnapninja

The alt-right owes an enormous intellectual debt to the Paleos (and their cousins, NRx). The earliest incarnation of the alt-right could be described as Sam Francis with edgy memes. The problem with the paleos is that they never did anything. They wrote, but never organised.

Member

Haven’t listened to the podcast yet. But something to give the Paleos big credit for is their foresight. At least the more salty Paleos. Not sure if foresight is the right word. Just saying they knew how bad a big government would be. And they knew how pernicious Lefty would end up being. I remember reading them in the early 90’s and thinking, “What’s SO bad about big government?”. And, “Relax Joe, liberals aren’t gonna go COMPLETELY bonkers.”

Yves Vannes
Member

What’s of parallel interest is to observe the separation of the younger Alt Right from the older organizations. They are a lot more confrontational and not at all interested in any form of compromise. They are taking a 2 pronged approach, with 2 camps that don’t see eye to eye but are figuring out a way to get along. One camp’s approach is to give whites the moral high ground they seem to need in order to walk away from their lifetime of social conditioning. For the under 40 crowd it’s working. The anti-whites are providing them with all of… Read more »

Ronald
Guest
Ronald

Z, what I’m not getting is what your actual moral arguments are. What is the moral case for deporting large numbers of peaceful, friendly, law abiding citizens who happen to belong to the wrong race? You can give people statistics and point out the net effect of X group is detrimental, but ultimately there are going to be an awful lot of morally blameless people who are going to be evicted from their homes and sent back to dysfunctional third world countries. Even just advocating for freedom of association means that black people will be denied access to services and… Read more »

Tykebomb
Guest
Tykebomb

This isn’t 1950, Walmart already slayed the mom and pop store. Amazon is demolishing the grave to put up slave labor warehouses. The idea that returning freedom of association will bring back jim crow merely displays your low intelligence and ignorance of the modern world.

Rcocean
Guest
Rcocean

Troll Alert.

Member

What is this “troll alert” thing? Is that like a “trigger warning” for far Right readers? I’m not in accord with Ronald’s points, but they are the questions we get from our opponents on the morality issue. We have to be prepared with answers. Saying “troll alert” doesn’t cut it when you’re being grilled by 3 lefties at a college bar.

LineInTheSand
Guest
LineInTheSand

Good call Frip. Ronald is asking his questions in good faith and deserves thoughtful responses.

Rcocean
Guest
Rcocean

“Questions from our opponents”? You’ve got to be kidding. Our opponents call us racists/bigots/homophobes and want to destroy us. And if you can’t tell dishonest trolling and obfuscating blather from honest opinion – I can’t help you.

LineInTheSand
Guest
LineInTheSand

The moral case for deporting large numbers of non-whites, whatever fine qualities they may have, is that for most of them, most of the time, tribal loyalties are more powerful than professed ideology.

Most humans are tribal and want to live in a society ruled by people of their race. Though you may have a friendly interaction with a conservative hispanic, he likely supports amnesty and massive immigration regardless of what he tells you. Almost all black conservatives voted for Obama.

There are some outliers, but they are so few that it is not worth the work to identify them.

Member

LineIn: “Though you may have a friendly interaction with…” It’s interesting how even the friendliest conversation between two racially different people still has an underlying tension. If not tension, then an awareness. Which is still tension, really. If I’m talking to a Hispanic, I have to be a bit careful not to sound condescending, because he’ll think it’s racial (my whiteness coming out). Whereas talking to a fellow white, I could say the same thing and he’d just think I was a bit bold.

Member

Beautiful podcast. Please expand on what our paleo forefathers taught in future casts if you would. Our challenge is to build a society on Christian virtues – more Viking, less Victorian.

Mike_C
Guest
Mike_C

“Christian virtues – more Viking, less Victorian.”

I believe that Varg Vikernes would like to have a word with you regarding “Viking” and “Christian”….

Shane
Guest
Shane

Funny you mentioned that. I’m not sure but I think it may have been mentioned on Heartiste recently that our society for most of it’s history has functioned along the lines of Pauline Masculinity but that for a future for The West we may have a period of Viking Masculinity to restore it. It’s interesting from a detached perspective but on both sides of the Atlantic our greatest problems are immigration and our own governments. Sad to say to our fellow hate thinkers in the U.S, but a collapse or fragmentation of the American Empire would be a boon to… Read more »

A-Bax
Guest
A-Bax

Great podcast. Was thinking about the “beautiful loser” in connection with Christianity, the ebbing thereof, and the rise of what Heartiste calls the Maul-Right. Your point is well taken that the Paleocons were/are just too nice, and that a lot of it is cultural. (Mid-century vs current). My thought is that a man steeped in Christian culture is going to view turning the other cheek and loving his enemies as high virtues. So a gentleman like Pat Buchanan will stand his ground in the arena, issuing haymakers, stemwinders, and knockout blows on the pages of various publications. But if a… Read more »

thekrustykurmudgeon
Guest

I’m currently reading a book called “Before the Storm” which is a book chronicling the rise of Goldwater. Although written by a lefty, its a good book.

It reminds me of the fact that I never much liked that type of conservatism. Goldwater-Reagan in many ways were Big C conservatives and were the Ted Cruz of there time. Nixon, otoh, was more of a small C conservative and more pragmatic.

Al from da Nort
Guest
Al from da Nort

Z Man; One Paleo-Con mistake not be repeated is failing to use the Marxian rhetoric of class exploitation against The Cloud Uni-Party Oligarchs. I know from personal experience that they *hate* being told that they *are* The Man, not The Righteous Radicals. Perhaps this fusion was not so obvious in their day. The Big-Gov Uni-Party in action was completely obvious under Speaker Ryan (spit). if anybody doubts that there IS a Cloud, Big G, Uni-Party here’s good evidence (via Ace of Spades): https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a26016237/dc-restaurants-bars-republicans-democrats-donald-trump/ But how did this overclass form and how did they miss deriding it in class-warfare terms_? In… Read more »

LineInTheSand
Guest
LineInTheSand

Z says that the paleo conservatives used the term “Judeo-Christian.” I always thought this term only became common after 9/11, for mostly traitorous reasons.

I did a web search and cannot find any significant usages of “Judeo-Christian” before this century.

I want to know the truth. Can anyone provide references to paleo conservatives of the 20th century using “Judeo-Christian?”

Member

Dude, it’s as common a term as “have a nice day”. Every National Review or any halfway serious magazine has been using it for 50 years or more. And I agree with Z’s explanation for why Judeo is included.

Good to see you LineIn.