Libertarian Bashing

Watching the kids savage the shills of TP-USA this week, put me in the mood to lash out at the libertarians. It is easy to forget that what is currently called the conservative movement is really just left-libertarianism. On the one hand, it is shilling for global business, open borders and post-nationalism. On the other hand, it is the left-wing war on western culture. Other than some vestigial references to religion and traditional values, there’s no difference between conservatism and libertarianism now.

I know a lot of old school libertarians think that their thing has been hijacked by infidels and that real libertarianism can be compatible with the dissident right. The trouble with that is they need to explain how their thing was so easily taken over by the left-wing degenerates that now dominate the racket. Again, the same critique applies here as to Buckley-style conservatism. The reason these 20th century responses to the Left failed is they all contained a fatal flaw that allowed them to be co-opted.

Now, there is a case to be made that the undoing of libertarianism was its associating with Buckley-style politics. The great paleo thinker Sam Francis observed that the Buckleyites would inevitably be absorbed into the managerial state, as they were engaging in politics on Progressive terms. In order to gain a place on stage, they were forced to accept the basic premise of Progressive politics. That is, they had to embrace the blank slate and egalitarianism. That could only lead one way.

Perhaps that is so, but it does not change the fact that libertarianism is now one of the heads of the monster. You see that in their response to dissident politics. They immediately drop the mask and begin howling left-wing talking points. The response from them to the groyper rebellion is a perfect example. You see the same hysterics and name calling that you see from the Left. It is a good reminder that these people are just part of the candy coating of the Progressive nut inside.

This week I have the usual variety of items in the now standard format. Spreaker has the full show. I am up on Google Play now, so the Android commies can take me along when out disrespecting the country. I am on iTunes, which means the Apple Nazis can listen to me on their Hitler phones. The anarchists can catch me on iHeart Radio. YouTube also has the full podcast. Of course, there is a download link below.


For sites like this to exist, it requires people like you chipping in a few bucks a month to keep the lights on and the people fed. It turns out that you can’t live on clicks and compliments. Five bucks a month is not a lot to ask. If you don’t want to commit to a subscription, make a one time donation. Or, you can send money to: Z Media LLC P.O. Box 432 Cockeysville, MD 21030-0432. You can also use PayPal to send a few bucks, rather than have that latte at Starbucks. Thank you for your support!


This Week’s Show

Contents

  • 00:00: Opening
  • 05:00: Community Last (Link)
  • 15:00: Callous Bastards (Link)
  • 25:00: Sacrificing To Baal (Link)
  • 35:00: Fantasy Land (Link)
  • 45:00: Unreliable Liars (Link) (Link)
  • 55:00: Closing

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Full Show On YouTube

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Exile
Member
Exile

InB4 I listen, on topic – one of the Americans I spoke with after Oslo Scandza was trying to sell me pretty hard on Propertariansim. I’ve tried to deep-dive on this before but pulled the rip-chord after a few hours because it just sounded like a re-branding of hard philosophical libertarianism. In last year’s pod on “fringe politics” Z conveyed the same impression on Propertarianism. I tried the Doolittle-brand packaging and the Mark-brand packaging, neither turned me on. Doolittle struck me like a libertarian Moldbug, even less appealing than Mark. When I told the Propertarian that it just seemed like… Read more »

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

That was pretty much speaking in tongues as far as I am concerned, though I’m sure it’s the usual good thinking 😉

Exile
Member
Exile

If you think my Cliffs Notes version sounds wonky, try the original straight from the bottle. Migraine-fuel.

John Smith
Member

You are what comes next, E. It is entirely possible you could a philosopher king like our host! Looking back on my journey I was told to line up behind our allies (which included libertarians) and not talk or even think about the gathering, growing darkling shadows that we talk about here every day. I was fed up with Conservative Inc long before they called it that. It’s a tough place to be, isn’t it? I flirted with NRx, they have some good ideas but lots of baggage too. The Alt Right looked good until fags like Milo and Vox… Read more »

Penitent Man
Guest
Penitent Man

John Smith, I generally try to be honest with myself and I realize I’m clever but not terribly bright. I do what I can with my gifts and faults to walk the line between delving into theory until I reach the level of my ineptitude, and being a stalwart suportive hammer ala Popeye’s “I knows what I knows and that’s all that I knows.” I’m quick to recognize patterns and figure causalities but am often stymied developing solutions. I’m okay with that. The latter isn’t my gift. You are right, at some point when we emerge from the shadows, we… Read more »

Ignoratti
Guest
Ignoratti

John Smith, that last paragraph is so true. I hope you don’t mind, I’m stealing “ignoratti”.

sameguy
Guest
sameguy

Propertarianism is utopian fantasy. It’s just libertarianism to the nth degree.
No ‘ism’ is going to save us other than pragmatism and opportunism.

vxxc💂🏻‍♂️😉
Guest

Testiclism

A.B Prosper
Guest
A.B Prosper

Do as I say or else-ism really.

Johann
Guest
Johann

My understanding of “propertarianism,” just from watching the John Mark videos, is that it’s really just ordinary separatist and reactionary thought, but with everything spergily translated into economic terms. In particular, they seem to try to calculate a monetary value for every social wrong. Like, if your neighbor plays loud music or is a tattooed freak, they want to calculate some kind of “market value” of the psychic damage to the neighbors. Of course, it’s absurd. Not all social ills can be monetized, and it’s willfully reductive to even try. Ordinary laws are perfectly fine to handle things like that.… Read more »

Exile
Member
Exile

Spergs are best at deconstruction & destruction. Creativity & the construction of human networks require flexibility & a tolerance for ambiguity they lack. The old “all they have is a hammer” thing.

Johann
Guest
Johann

Yeah, for that reason I could even put in a kind word for that nasty old bird, Ayn Rand.

Her polemics against the resentment-driven politics of the left are so convincing that you can never really look at them the same way again.

But her own system is so utopian that it doesn’t survive the slightest contact with the real word. So she’s actually pretty good at peeling youngsters away from leftism, but then freeing them to find their own answers.

Exile
Member
Exile

There are a few ex-Objectivists around here, myself included. Definitely agree.

BadThinker
Guest
BadThinker

Same. When you are 17 and read someone that sees all the envy driven insanity around you and tells you its not okay, you can easily get roped into following some of her more utopian ideas. Especially in the modern age where so many people believe that people are actually rational animals. In hindsight, one wonders how on earth you could worship reason after just reading about how people arent reasonable at all.

HamburgerToday
Guest
HamburgerToday

I think John Mark has done some good work. Curt Doolittle seems like a pretty intelligent and thoughtful guy who has a vision as to what might work for American Westernkind. I’m not going to pretend that I understand everything about Propertarianism, or even all that much about the details, but I don’t think P-ism is just crackpottery. In Doolittle’s analysis, he thinks one of the primary advantages of the West has been rule of law and P-ism seeks to make the most of this feature of the West by extending (and defining) the notion of ‘property’ in such a… Read more »

Exile
Member
Exile

To the extent they are trying to be more wholistic it’s a mark of self-awareness re: libertarianism’s blind spots but that seems to run into its own set of problems. Can you really quantify non-economic services or decisions? The original libertarians would attack that idea with Hayek”s knowledge problem, subjective vs. objective value, etc.

It still seems like a political version of Asimov”s Foundation “psychohistory.”

Based on some positive feedback like yours I”ll give it another shot sometime & do a post next year.

Lawdog
Member

Oh, spergs especially hate ambiguity. You can’t manipulate what you can’t define. That’s why my more strident professors always disqualified politically incorrect authors based on their (real or imagined) “racism” rather than the merits of their art. No need to tangle with anything that makes your brain hurt. Bad person = no need for rebuttal. God forbid an atom of self-doubt were to enter their minds…

Sean Detente
Member

Wow. Honestly, thanks for posting your take on propertarianism, because here is the Malbolge programming language: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbolge

I discovered it watching an episode of Elementary (get off my lawn, I’m allowed one crime procedural due to my age) and have been playing with it. Waaaay easier to understand than propertarianism.

Exile
Member
Exile

“(S)pecifically designed to be almost impossible to use” = all llbertarianism, ever. I’m going to.use that quote in the future, muchos gracias.

HamburgerToday
Guest
HamburgerToday

I don’t get the sense that it’s about ‘monetary’ value, it’s about the value of ‘property violations’ within the context of an overarching principle of reciprocity and the notion of ‘property’ as a *behavior*. This seems to me a pretty sound arrangement, whether ‘libertarian’ or not. I don’t claim to understand all the details of P-ism, but I find these innovations intriguing. Supposed John Mark and Curt Doolittle are going to do a series of conversations together going through the Propertarian Constitution and I’m curious about that these communiques will contain.

MemeWarVet
Guest
MemeWarVet

When I watched John Mark’s deep dive on Propertarianism, he made it clear that all disputes would be adjudicated through the court system.

I thought to myself “is there any particular group of people who are skilled at manipulating the courts to advance their own in-group preference at the expense of the out-group? Anyone at all???”

At that point so stopped taking John Mark seriously. That and his whole “the cops will side with us when TSHTF” thing.

Lineman
Guest
Lineman

Any system that doesn’t have white people as one of it’s foundational supports will fail…

Member
MossHammer

Yes, exactly…

“Once more: If the society contains a class of adult members, so deficient in virtue and intelligence that they would only abuse the fuller privileges of other citizens to their own and others’ detriment, it is just to withhold so many of these privileges, and to impose so much restraint, as may be necessary for the highest equity to the whole body, inclusive of this subject class.” – Robert Lewis Dabney. “A Defence of Virginia / And Through Her, of the South, in Recent and Pending Contests Against the Sectional Party.”

Maus
Guest
Maus

+1 wisdom from the Bitterroot Valley. Semper alba, iustus semper. Always white, always right. The real flaw of libertarians of all stripes is that they worship Mammon with a complete and utter sacrifice of their sanity.

Ian Smith
Guest
Ian Smith

Propertarianism is nothing more than a multi-volume love letter from Curt Doolittle to the operational testimonialism of his butt hole.

Karl Dahl
Guest
Karl Dahl

Ideology is a spook

The Right Doctor
Guest
The Right Doctor

OT: I was working out at the gym, on a bike. I read while cycling, but when the chapter ends before the workout I might look up at all of the TV screens scrolled across the wall. Yesterday I saw an ad, in Spanish, with text reading, “Voting determines the future. Don’t let them determine our future. Register to vote.” They come to this country to determine our future. And they consider us – the existing country – to be ‘them’. How is that not an invasion, deserving of being repelled by force of arms? Mexicans have already determined the… Read more »

joey junger
Guest
joey junger

They do consider it an invasion. You just have to tease it out of them. The conversation goes like this. You: “You can’t come here illegally.” Them: “Your people took this land from mine and the Reconquista requires me to fight for the establishment of Aztlan.” They won’t be that succinct; but it’s the message. To be fair and also give Perot and Buchanan their due, Mexico wasn’t anymore of a craphole decades ago than Iraq was (look up Baghdad in the ’60s; it looked like Rhodesia). There’s nothing worse than the Hispanics in academia, but they have about as… Read more »

UFO
Guest
UFO

Is that really what the Mexicans think, or is that just the idea that white (((liberals))) have put in their head?

The “we are reconquering the land” bullshit sounds like he just can’t admit that his own country is a shithole (because of people like him) so he fled. It’s all coping.

Exile
Member
Exile

It’s hard to lose $$$ selling someone what he wants to hear.

I grew up within an hour’s drive of some of the poorest, least-developed White communities in America (Kentucky & WVa), and at our worst we were at least one if not two standard deviations of civilization beyond the Mexican average.

At the risk of offending Freduardo Reed at Unz, if I were Mexican I would be looking hard for a cope.

Ant Man Bee
Guest

It’s worth remembering that as a strict factual matter, the justification “your people took this land from mine” is entirely false. The United States conquered (not stole, conquered in war, fair and square) a large swathe of almost-entirely unsettled land from the Mexican Empire. Which swiped it from the Spanish Empire on their way out the door. (It’s worth recalling just how unsettled this territory was; it was “Mexican” or “Spanish” pretty much on paper only.) The Spaniards, in their turn, had swiped it from the Hopi, the Navajo, the Comanche, the Paiute, and other smaller Indian nations whose lengthy… Read more »

UFO
Guest
UFO

Remember: moral, not logical arguments will win. Your Ben shapiro style “facts and logic” spiel just doesnt work.

vxxc💂🏻‍♂️😉
Guest

Moral?

Member

Making persuasive moral arguments is a tough nut to crack in the post modern relativistic stew in which we have all been marinated. Toss in the conflation of morals and values and good luck. I’ll probably get downvoted for stating it, but I have to concede that I found the Harris argument for the moral landscape and the variable of capacity for suffering to be persuasive. It actually pairs with HBD quite well in my mind.

Lawdog
Member

I guess the average Joe prefers to feel reassured about his character rather than the validity of his observations.

Lawdog
Member

Morales

Citizen of a Silly Country
Guest
Citizen of a Silly Country

Yep. I don’t what writer/director wrote/shot this scene, but it makes your point nicely. (My assumption is the writer/director have been properly punished for their heresy.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1y_0NfhF9c

BadThinker
Guest
BadThinker

What movie is this? Seems like I need to see this.

Maus
Guest
Maus

I enjoyed that refreshing dose of real talk. Winners write the history. Nobody likes to lose; but losers can bitch and moan like “victims” or they can build casinos to bleed the weaker elements of the victorious party. Or flood the lands that were “conquered” with unproductive human detritus and cheap tar heroin. White Americans need to remember the deeds of their forefathers; start acting like winners; and tell the losers to FOAD

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

The reconquista is what is taught in the colleges these days. La Raza on campus, or whatever they call themselves now. Before they invented it, it didn’t really exist.

ReturnOFBestGuest
Guest
ReturnOFBestGuest

They’ve re-branded to “UnidosUS.”

Penitent Man
Guest
Penitent Man

I’ve had an inordinate amount of interactions with both new citizens to the U.S. from Mexico and their first gen U.S. born children. I generally like them, with the exception of the Cholo types. Funny thing is, oftentimes, at some point they’ll refer to white people and they’ll inevitably use the word “Americanos” interchangeably. Its subconscious but infinitely telling. They know. Deep down, they know.

Ignoratti
Guest
Ignoratti

Good idea since when translated to English “The Race” sounds a little racist.

MemeWarVet
Guest
MemeWarVet

And to add to what AntManBee said, the few places in Norte Mexico that did have any sort of civilization (ie the Mission Towns of California, Santa Fe, and San Antonio) we’re all built by white Criolo Spaniards. Mestizos had nothing to do with it.

Member

You are killing it Ant Man. Unfortunately, as I have discovered throughout my life, perhaps 5% of the population at most can be persuaded to change their thinking or beliefs based upon evidence or reason. This is why outright atheism will never displace some form of faith in that which cannot be either confirmed or falsified. It is also why most of the population cannot become scientists and engineers. Ultimately, it is why so few want to buy what we are selling.

Mark Taylor
Guest
Mark Taylor

Yeah poor atheists. They’re such cold hard logic and science bots surrounded by savages.

Range Front Fault
Guest
Range Front Fault

(Precisely who THEY swiped it from is lost in the mists of time) the Hopi, Navajo, Paiute never knew the Aztecas (Oh yes they did!) –Antman The mists of time have lifted and we know. Lots of old ones in the southwest for 10’s of thousands of years: The Folsom culture made seriously amazing effective, beautiful fluted killing points and wiped out the last of the Beringian large animals, post ice age, mammoths and mastodons. Moving forward, the Basketmaker Culture spanned 7,000 BC to 750 AD. Ancestral Puebloans aka Anasazi (that’s what the Navajo called them when they arrived (approx.… Read more »

Range Front Fault
Guest
Range Front Fault

Tlaloc…The god of Rain…the House of Rain. Some MesoAmerican people still worship him today. Culture can move backwards in time. NEVER underestimate the MesoAmerican taste for sacrifice. Just because Turkeys are sacrificed now, sacrificed turkeys found in Chaco 1,000 years in the past, does not mean over a span of time, it won’t regress to a new-action version of the violent and death times, quietly with stealth. They perceive reality as a much longer continuum than we do.

2A_Practicioner
Guest
2A_Practicioner

I wish I could be optimistic but never in human history as multiculturalism existed without conflict, strife and warfare. What to do??? My best sane recommendation is to (1) Prepare, (2) Be better than ‘them’ in every conceivable manner – i.e. take it personally and have fun competing against ‘them’ and (3) keep calm, don’t do anything stupid or rash as it demeans you and your people.

ChrisZ
Guest
ChrisZ

“Mexicans have already determined the fate of one country, the one they flee.“

That is one powerful statement. Thanks.

Carl B.
Guest
Carl B.

There’s probably a white traitor paying for those ads

There’s no “probably” about it.

Member

Yeah, a (((white))) traitor. BTW Z, any idea why posts and replies are displaying out of order and indicating four hours old when they are new. I’m on Brave. Server/time zone SW glitch?

BadThinker
Guest
BadThinker

In past posts he’s mentioned redoing the comments section on the site.

BadThinker
Guest
BadThinker

High probability of a (((white))) traitor.

Citizen of a Silly Country
Guest
Citizen of a Silly Country

“There’s probably a white traitor paying for those ads.”

He’s doesn’t consider himself white. He’s also not a traitor to HIS people. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. He’s being perfectly rational. I respect our opponents and find their tactics perfectly understandable. It’s not their fault that we’re too stupid to see through the propaganda and realize that they’re not one of us.

Lineman
Guest
Lineman

@Citizen
Exactly right Brother…They know if we do what they do to us which is band/tribe together we would win in a heartbeat which is why they troll these comment section to do everything in their power so that we don’t…It’s to bad we listen to them…

Member

Our universalist creed, born of the Enlightenment and Judeo-Protestantism, has inoculated non-whites against our predations. Once we gave up the practice of involuntary servitude, we leaped into the arms of radical egalitarianism. What our ruling class has in store for us next is anyone’s guess. They demand cheap labor in the Age of Equality, something that can only come at the cost of the middle class.

TomA
Guest
TomA

This is a prime example of why we are not going to talk (or vote) our way out of the mess we are in. Demographics is destiny in a liberal democracy.

joey junger
Guest
joey junger

I still get spam email from mainstream conservative and libertarian operations I haven’t visited in ages. What I’ve noticed about all of it is the weird totally spectator nature of the discourse. These tea party sites and Breitbart talk about everything in a “Did you hear about Hugo and Kim?” tone, as if politicians are popular kids in school and everyone else is just at the margins of some high-school drama. The browning of America of course means that politics will basically just be fat black and Jewish women doing a coffee klatch (like The View) but the whites are… Read more »

BadThinker
Guest
BadThinker

This has been the Talk Radio model for years. It’s ‘serious business’ for the plebs.

Shrugger
Guest
Shrugger

“[T]hese people are just part of the candy coating of the Progressive nut inside.”

Z, where do you get gems like this?

Bruno the Arrogant
Guest
Bruno the Arrogant

Personally, I’ve always described that situation as, “The same shit sandwich with a different choice of sides.”.

The very truth
Guest
The very truth

Broad coalitions sound good in theory, but different groups have different interests. Those interests often conflict. Advances for one group often come at the expense of another. That’s why broad coalitions are more susceptible to resentment, division, and eventual dissolution.

With that said Ethno-Nationalism is Un-American.

It has NO place in the conservative movement

You need to builf broad coalition to make America great for EVERYONE

believe in natural rights for ALL

believe in E Pluribus Unum—out of many one

e condemn the hateful ideology that is white supremacy

Phoenix
Guest
Phoenix

Ha, ha good one..

Exile
Member
Exile

To paraphrase Ayn Rosenbaum, “In any unum of food & poison, the pluribum is still toxic.” Judging by the state of the “conservative” movement, you are technically, if only partially, correct – ethno-nationalism has no place in the conservative movement. Your main error among many lies in conflating Second Founding conservative mythology (proposition nation, all men created equal, statue-poem) with “American.” The immigration act of 1789, the first significant legislation passed under muh Constitution by muh Founders, was ethno-nationalist. Your idea of Americanism was manufactured and smuggled into our history post-Reconstruction to justify the first efforts to import a new… Read more »

Nunnya Bidnez, jr.
Guest
Nunnya Bidnez, jr.

Hi, TinyDuck…

you forgot to mention that white wymyn love big blck kock.

have a good weekend, see you Monday.

MemeWarVet
Guest
MemeWarVet

We’ve not had a troll in the comments in a while – I’ve kind of missed it!

Ant Man Bee
Guest

Piteous Christ you’re a buffoon. Not just personally, but technically: everything you say is always wrong. I mean actually, demonstrably wrong. It’s just that nobody can be bothered to pick the corn out of your poop.

Honestly, don’t you ever get tired of this?

Lineman
Guest
Lineman

Ant it’s a paycheck for him so he probably won’t get tired of it…

joey junger
Guest
joey junger

Parsing your comment, it occurs to me that I’ve never told anyone to condemn anything, no matter how I felt about them or their ideology. The fact that you (and others) even use this language, makes you sound like some kind of grand inquisitor or quasi-dictator: “Condemn this, now!” How about, “No.” A guy walking around with a sandwich board that says, “Repent” is reasonable by comparison

Sperg Adjacent
Guest
Sperg Adjacent

LOL, this is so weak it’s gotta be one of our guys.

False fag attack!

BadThinker
Guest
BadThinker

Duck used to work harder…

Stina
Guest
Stina

It looks like great satire. But it’s so hard to tell these days.

Rwc1963
Guest
Rwc1963

My god it Charlie Kirk!!!

UFO
Guest
UFO

It’s so interesting to notice: Ben Shapiro, Matt Walsh and whatever other idiots spend the entire show whining about “the left calls everybody nazis they disagree with boo hoo” and then spends the whole q&a calling the groypers nazis lol.

Same with the gay black guy at OSU, he was going on about how conservatives should be accepting of gays, then at the end he says “lol if you want gay sex you can find it”, using gay as pejorative.

These clowns are total frauds and I’m glad they’re being exposed. Demographics, demographics, demographics. Keep hammering away.

Citizen of a Silly Country
Guest
Citizen of a Silly Country

Survival, survival, survival. Keep hammering away with that.

Neither the GOP (which I don’t care about but Joe Normie does) nor whites will fare well as our numbers are reduced.

That One Guy
Guest
That One Guy

You can see from the way that they operate entirely within the left’s framework, and so instinctively and unashamedly use the left’s demonology, that they are not the right, but merely the right of the left.

Just the monster’s rightmost head, as the Zman would say.

I think of it as Cathedral FC (Football Club). Globohomo is all one team. All working together.

Forwards: ADL, the intelligence agencies.
Midfielders: Antifa, Jewish gazillionaires, the media, Hollywood
Defenders: Academia, Wine Aunts, LBGT, Conservative Inc.
Goalkeeper: Pedophiles

Lawdog
Member

Pedophiles as the goalkeepers? Make the balls smaller and I bet they’ll stop deflecting them so well.

Sleepy
Member
Sleepy

My view of the Right libertarian leg of the Fusionist stool is that they either assumed that culture was a given, or they didn’t care. They just wanted the unfettered ability to exploit the economy: low taxes, reduced regulations, busted unions, etc. I could be wrong about this, but their love for the brown hordes invading the land seems like a later innovation, perhaps motivated by the end of the baby boom.

The Left libertarians just want to dress up like girls, ponies, etc., and spread venereal diseases. Right libertarianism ceased when they embraced dress up and sodomy.

Phoenix
Guest
Phoenix

I think the root of all politics is simply people twisting things to their personal advantage. It gets muddied up because so many people are pushing and pulling in different directions…

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

Sleepy, I was going to ask the august Zman how he defines “libertarians”, but I think you’ve covered it.

I wish Z would bring back his classic quote, something along the lines of “I love the leaves in fall, they remind me that there may be a God, and of why I hate libertarians.”

Member

I agree. It’s a white European male thing with no mechanism for keeping it that way.
It is, to a very large degree how whites relate to their neighbors but doesn’t seem to be scalable.
It’s my instinctive approach but has to be amenable to having limits on liberty (other peoples first, of course)

Exile
Member
Exile

Even Whites are constrained by the Dunbar Number. We.work best together in much smaller groups than millions

Screwtape
Guest
Screwtape

Jones, yeah thats how it strikes me as well. Libertarian blank slate starts with a middle-aged professional with a nice home and manicured lawn – that he cuts himself! That kind of projection is necessary to prop up a system so ripe for hijacking. My earliest encounters with libertarianism as a high school aged kid was a Lutheran family i knew. Owned their own business with a couple of uncles. Super churchy. But no sons only daughters. A lot of ‘roll up your sleeves’ and ‘bootstraps’ morality that they actually backed up. Good people, but something was off. Later it… Read more »

Rcocean
Guest
Rcocean

So? They’ve never cared about the USA – only the dollar. They unite with the Left in supporting globalism and open borders. Same result, different motives. Some of them used Libertarianism as a way to channel people away from a REAL conservative movement based on “Family, borders, Culture”. If the Left is 100% evil, libertarians are only 75% evil – give them a brownie point.

Vegetius
Guest
Vegetius

>libertarianism is now one of the heads of the monster

This. Libertarianism in the current year is objectively anti-white.

Da Booby
Guest

Well now, the Booby outgrew his Libertarian faith many moons ago, but let’s be fair. There’s nothing inherently “open boarders”, for example, about Libertarianism, per se, It’s just that that’s what the mainstream academic face of the movement has adopted. Problem is, Libertarianism is impossible to define, as every Libertarian will give you a different definition of “what it means to be a libertarian”. Frankly, if a people freely decides it doesn’t want open boarders and prefers to preserve an ethnic identity within the boarders of a nation-state that can be a perfectly Libertarian outcome… problem is, so can the… Read more »

Exile
Member
Exile

I agree to a point. You can make a perfectly functional libertarian case for citizenship as a property right and immigrants as “free riders.” Libertarianism can’t seem to deal with the Hume-ian “is-ought” void in its ideology though. It eventually gets syllogized into silliness and libertine’d down by lawyering. Even if a group were sensible enough to say their “social contract” was not open to expanded membership, incessant lawyering and deconstruction would permit entryism and subversion at some point. “Because we live here” is ultimately a will-to-power concept that lies above and beyond logical deconstruction and proof (albeit well within… Read more »

Citizen of a Silly Country
Guest
Citizen of a Silly Country

Current Libertarianism should be called Intellectual Escapism

Outdoorspro
Guest
Outdoorspro

The only thing consistent from one libertarian to the next, is how smug they are whenever they let you know they are libertarians.

Member

You can’t run a civil society on the Rand-Hickman “What’s good for me is right” philosophy. That’s how our ghettos and most of sub Saharan Africa operates. I found Rand’s books to be beyond tedious.

Ian Smith
Guest
Ian Smith

Part of why I adopted libertarianism ca. 2009 was that I wasn’t a liberal but I was embarrassed to be associated with the party of W.

Mark Taylor
Guest
Mark Taylor

Libertarianism is egalitarian. “I leave you alone, and you leave me alone.” In that framework it doesn’t matter who’s in your neighborhood, city, or country because you all agree on the same rules, and leave each other alone. Except in the real world nobody agrees on those rules except libertarians. And they will never admit that entire nations and races have no chance of ever agreeing on those rules- because then libertarians would have to have new rules to handle it. If they admitted that libertarian rules can’t work, they would stop being libertarians. So instead right libertarians come up… Read more »

Member

“The trouble with that is they need to explain how their thing was so easily taken over by the left-wing degenerates that now dominate the racket. Again, the same critique applies here as to Buckley-style conservatism. ”

That’s a good point. Does it apply to Christianity, too? I’m not at anti-Christian, I just think it has a soft-underbelly, and has poor defense mechanisms against Progressivism. Let’s face it: Christianity was the dominant cultural force in the West and it got routed by the Left.

Member

” Christianity was the dominant cultural force in the West and it got routed by the Left.”
(((Almost Correct)))

Exile
Member
Exile

Spot on. “Judeo-Christianity” was a “little-hat hack” on the Christian mainframe at the root/OS level

Tykebomb
Guest
Tykebomb

Christianity is, at its core, progressive. When you look back at how Christianity began you see the appeals to women and slaves. The early church made a lot of money by acting as a place for widowers and daughters to hide their inheritance from their husbands (Roman law gave the family patriarch a lot of power). Further on, Catholicism outlawed cousin marriage to fight the clans of Rome and the Germans. This caused Europeans to develop this poisonous individualism that we have taken WAY too far, to the the point of Libertarianism. The Reformation was a massive upheaval in it’s… Read more »

Lawdog
Member

Regarding slaves and women, you could make that argument for Islam if you go solely by the Quran. Muhammad — and probably Jesus — found the rich to be less reliable allies. But their money’s still good!

BadThinker
Guest
BadThinker

Outlawing cousin marriage was eugenic, whatever it did to social bonds, the genetic improvements are clear. Witness the genetic problems with cousin-marrying populations today.

John Smith
Member

Nonsense. Christianity has withstood Romans, Moslems, uncounted tribes of barbarians, socialists, fascists and other turd burglars. It has gone into chit holes like Africa and established civilizations. From the Dead Sea scrolls, we know our bible has passed from antiquity to today, virtually unchanged. What you see is the dross being boiled off. The bible itself predicts this with exacting detail. The parodies of the church and faith communities are collapsing; classical Christianity is very much alive and well. It takes some digging but they are there. We keep low profiles for the same reason dissidents do – because we… Read more »

Maus
Guest
Maus

Amen, Mr. Smith. Christos Nika! The ultimate, albeit slow-acting, white pill.

Edgar
Guest
Edgar

Great minds think alike. My favorite American commentator–the Zman–and my favorite English commentator–Morgoth–have recently both smashed down the idea that we should serve the economy, instead of the other way around.

Here’s Morgoth’s video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6STp1ogk_qE

Morgoth is necessary viewing (and reading; he has a blog) for anyone in our thing.

Exile
Member
Exile

Jon Haidt owes me some dough for shilling him like this, but I’ma do it again.

Libertarians are aboriginal liberals. Compared to ethno-nationalists, they are moral horseshoe crabs in the tree of political life.

Libertarians seem to have moral eyesight even less diversified than the liberals Haidt found were limited to the “harm” and “fairness” spectra. They are almost entirely limited to the “harm” spectrum.

Like Popeye McCain, a Libertarian has one I but cannot see, but in the Conservatarian nation of the blind, every one-I’d man is still king.

Mike_C
Guest
Mike_C

” a Libertarian has one I but cannot see”

I can’t believe this only has 3 upvotes. This is simultaneously a luminous phrase and cutthroat razor encapsulated in eight words. Bravo!

“Moral horseshoe crabs” isn’t bad either.

Citizen of a Silly Country
Guest
Citizen of a Silly Country

If you’re not allowed to think of yourselves as a people, then every discussion boils down to material wealth. Conservative Inc continually hammers the idea that America (and thus Americans) was founded on the idea of freedom and the chance to build a better life. Libertarianism fits that perfectly. If you start with that premise, immigration, building a business, etc., are all opportunities for individuals to fulfill those ideals. The hard-working, freedom-loving immigrant will find his paradise here and become a productive American, just like your ancestors did. The entrepreneur (truly the greatest American) will build a better life for… Read more »

Drake
Guest
Drake

I flirted with libertarianism for a while after HW Bush dropped the mask on mainstream fake conservatism. They appealed to me on small government (government seems to attract evil sociopaths so of course I want to minimize it), and basic economic math stuff like Warren story. But I could never go all-in for many of the reasons Z cites. They absolutely refuse to acknowledge that their open borders ideas are stupid and suicidal. Culture, history, and race are simply ignored. Scratch them hard and they always jump left. And now places like Reason are openly funded by guys like the… Read more »

Bruno the Arrogant
Guest
Bruno the Arrogant

Here’s the thing about libertarians: if they really hated the state as much as they hate the nation, they might actually be good for something. Unfortunately, they seem to be perfectly happy with the state as long as it sticks to the business of wrecking the nation.

Ant Man Bee
Guest

I’ve never understood how either Buckleyites or libertarians could be taken seriously long enough to even bother to refute them. When I was a kid I knew and cared almost zero about politics, but even as a teenager I knew implicitly that Buckley was an asshole just by seeing him on television for a few minutes. The absurd body postures, that insufferable accent, his squid-tentacles manner of speaking… I took one look at the guy, shrugged and said, That guy’s an asshole. Who cares what he has to say? (It’s funny to note that since I didn’t care what Buckley… Read more »

Maus
Guest
Maus

+1 on the allegory of the tomato garden. As a kid, my favorite activity was putting salt on the slugs and applying sunlight via the magnifying glass to the worms. It’s a great way for fathers to teach their children by concrete example about enemies and the need for vigilance.

Rwc1963
Guest
Rwc1963

I had the same impression of Buckley growing up in the 70’s – the guy was a total asshole and effete snob. How could anyone take him seriously? Apparently he fooled a lot of people. But hey I was just a kid from a working class family so what did I know.

ProUSA
Guest
ProUSA

I told myself last night after my 14th comment, “Don’t comment for a while, just listen or ask a question.” I might have to listen to this twice since I find myself distracted with 6 to 10 tabs open on my browser. That many tabs open and listening to Z doesn’t work. Scenario: Chinese couple owns a big house in an affluent area, own a house in Taiwan, and one in Beijing. The wife was a successful Taiwan business woman and the husband makes a good living, and they are part owners in a business in the states. They live… Read more »

Exile
Member
Exile

That’s why you should not hesitate to take everything you can from the system short of risking jail or bankruptcy. You are paying for the system everyone else but you and your family are permitted to abuse.

As Queen Ann said recently, we may as well vote for Bernie at this point – his immigration policy can’t be worse than Trump’s in practice and Whites may get some free stuff on the side.

ProUSA
Guest
ProUSA

Exile, I need lessons in how to be a thief.

Exile
Member
Exile

Pirate gold can’t be stolen, only salvaged. Or consider it reparations like your wanna-be replacements do.

The only guy playing fairly in a rigged game can only lose.

Maus
Guest
Maus

Start by taking your Social Security at 62. Find ways to exploit the tax code. For example, I started a Sched. C business that generates just enough revenue to cover my health insurance premiums to take advantage of the topline deduction as opposed to the much less generous Sched. A itemized deduction. The new 20% small business deduction more than covers the increased FICA self-employment tax. Whatever flavor of DR that Our Thing is able to create, I will always starve the beast because I am, though decidedly NOT a libertarian, still the best manager of my own money and… Read more »

ProUSA
Guest
ProUSA

Yes, subsidiarity, Maus. I know where that comes from. Thank you and God bless. I will follow your posts.

Vegetius
Guest
Vegetius

It’s probably best not to do anything but ask questions for the first year or two. Journey of a thousand miles and all that.

If you feel a burning need to act, restrict yourself to sending money. Sending money with questions means they usually will get answered.

Rwc1963
Guest
Rwc1963

If he gets Medicare he either disabled or managed to convince Medicare he is. There is a entire industry of crooked doctors who will help you get Medicare if you are under 65.

That said, this is how the system is designed. You either take advantage of it or you don’t. The system doesn’t care.

You just have to gin up enough nerve to use it for you and yours. For example get work in the underground economy and then go on welfare like the Mexicans and Asians do. To the system you just look impoverished.

Anonymo
Guest
Anonymo

I think some of the young libertarians are not dishonest, just naive.

The comparison between Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged is perfect.

I think a lot of young libertarians basically have recently finished Atlas Shrugged, and just haven’t realized yet that real life doesn’t work like that.

* (“young libertarians” = me, LOL)

Hank Beardon
Guest
Hank Beardon

Now I can’t see or hear the phrase “Reason Magazine” without hearing the horn in my head. Thanks, Pavlov.

Member
Felix_Krull

Yes. It’s like when you see Brian Stelter and inwardly transpose what he says into Mark Dice’s voice.

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

Elmer Fudd’s voice works for me.

Sperg Adjacent
Guest
Sperg Adjacent

Burn down the cereal aisle.

The future is bacon and eggs, lads.

King Tut
Guest
King Tut

Occasionally, I still drop in to a few of the lolbertarian blogs and sites that I used to frequent and even write for. It’s wall-to-wall muh open borders and muh tranny rights (“love wins”). Back in the 1990’s when I got involved, it still had a few decent critical thinkers and civilised Western men but they have long gone.

For all intents and purposes now, they may as well be considered as a wing of the far-left.

Jim Smith
Guest
Jim Smith

Me too, Tut. I always distinguished myself as a “right-libertarian”, but that’s not feasible anymore. Not after the LP put up uber-PC-statist Bill Weld on its Presidential ticket. Long since time to leave ’em behind.

The Babe
Guest
The Babe

The shortest summation of libertarianism is: political eunuchism.

It’s powerlessness as a matter of principle. But if the central principle of your opponents is amassing power, and your central principle is renouncing power, how is that going to work out?

It’s like a religious cult that renounces sex. Marginalization and extinction are built right into the logic of it.

Libertarianism really is a cult of renunciation, with an unpleasant mix of cowardice and vanity just under the N.A.P. preening.

Exile
Member
Exile

Jehovah’s Witlesses…

That One Guy
Guest
That One Guy

That segment on African socialism was very dark comedy.

In fact Atlas Shrugged is the intellectual property I would most like to see blackwashed in the contemporary Hollywood style.

Exile
Member
Exile

A$AP Shuffled? Amos Shucked? Rufus Shirked?

Member

I think Amos Shuffled pretty well nails it.

Member

When confronted with librarian philosophy in total it was obvious that too many things just did not add up. Same as it was when reading what the conservative inc. bozos were putting out. if dissident realism is where we are now. What will we become on the other side of the hill. Identitarian realists maybe.

Member

Pretty hilarious podcast but while I love to mock libertarianism and the grifters who run the thinktanks and magazines, I try to remember that many of us came to the dissident right via a brief stop in libertarianism. Hell, I voted for that idiot pothead Gary Johnson twice. Mock the philosophy all you like, I have been dropping some biological realism on the Mises page for fun, but be gentle with the average libertarian. They might be on our side before you know it.

ReturnOFBestGuest
Guest
ReturnOFBestGuest

I doubt it. They’re now wholly owned subsidiaries of Cato “we’re an economy with a country” and the like.

Jim Smith
Guest
Jim Smith

It’s quite possible, if not *probable*, that a majority—and possibly a *large* majority—of the people here are former libertarians. What say you all? Vote now! 🙂

HamburgerToday
Guest
HamburgerToday

The paleo-libertarians were mostly concerned about the limits of the State, but they were also skeptical about unfettered capitalism as well. Obviously, one part of their perspective was congenial to patronage by capitalists and one wasn’t and, as they say, made all the difference. Commutarian libertarianism basically disappeared from the political landscape and pro-capitalist, libertine libertarianism was promoted. Which is how we got to today, where ‘conservatism’ is simply Leftism on installments.

Bartleby the Scrivner
Guest
Bartleby the Scrivner

The callous bastards segment made me pause the audio to respond to it. Z wants his neighbors to have access to health care. Fine. I can’t for the life of me remember when someone was turned away from a hospital or ER. Everyone has access to health care. How it is paid for is not the same thing. It muddies the water to claim all don’t have “access to healthcare”.

Drake
Guest
Drake

Last year I had to bring my wife to the emergency room. A month later of course we get bills for absurd amounts, which insurance covered most of. She asks me how the hospital can charge so much. I tell her to think about all the Mexicans waiting in the ER when we arrived. Our bill was for her care and all of theirs because they damn sure aren’t insured and will just throw the bills away if it ever finds them.

Exile
Member
Exile

We hire experts to testify as to the reasonableness & necessity of medical costs in civil trials. The multi-layered negotiations between insurers and providers as well as the transfer payments (“collectibility” considerations),, bundling, cost-shifting & buck-passing leaves jurors either drowsing, flabbergasted or outraged. The IRS & SEC couldn’t figure out half of the “accounting” involved. The cost of medical care bears no resemblance to a pricing mechanism anyone from the Before Times would recognize or understand. We’re coming full circle to the point where doctors who only accept direct upfront payment for their services (almost always from rich guys you… Read more »

Member

I think there’s a pretty good RICO/Sherman case against the Insurers and the hospitals. Collectively rigging the prices and giving discounts only to preferred payers in order for the individual payer to subsidize them sounds like a lawsuit to me.
And don’t give me the bulk purchase crap: if there’s one good/service that’s delivered one at a time, it’s healthcare,

ReturnOFBestGuest
Guest
ReturnOFBestGuest

The first thing the border-jumpers are instructed to do by their enablers is have an anchor-baby. The majority of births in the most populous states (CA, TX, FL, NY) are Medicaid births charged to the national debt. That along with ER usage is why healthcare is, at present, unaffordable.

ProUSA
Guest
ProUSA

I’m breaking my own promise to not post, but I can’t help it. I gotta get it off my chest. A gal living in China gets pregnant and comes here to have the baby. The same gal gets pregnant in China again by the same guy and comes here and has the baby. My friend eventually meets her on a dating site at age 54, marries her in a community property state, but says to me that she cannot find the father in China so as to make him help pay for child support. I’m not liking her for this.… Read more »

3g4me
Guest
3g4me

If they’re one standard deviation of IQ above us, why must they invade our nation? Why can’t all the clever Koreans, Vietnamese, and Han stay home and achieve in their own nations? What’s that you say, IQ alone isn’t sufficient? Culture (i.e. RACE) matters?

And by the way, if your “friend” married this scheming Han, he’s A) STUPID and B) not your friend.

ProUSA
Guest
ProUSA

Thanks for replying. Why are they coming here? Plunder while escaping their own economic oppression? They don’t see what they are buying into, for sure.

ReturnOFBestGuest
Guest
ReturnOFBestGuest

That’s called Birth Tourism. Big business on both coasts. Have your kid and return home with a birth certificate and passport. Later through chain migration that kid can sponsor the whole family to come to the US.

KGB
Guest
KGB

A dozen years ago I had an ER visit for stitches on a finger. While I waited and waited, I could hear the doctor on the other side of the curtain upbraid a Mexican family (through an interpreter, of course) for bringing their young daughter to the ER for nothing more than the sniffles. He made it clear that this was far from their first visit under those circumstances. Even he sounded like he was at wit’s end dealing with this shit.

Mike_C
Guest
Mike_C

“Our bill was for her care and all of [ the Mexicans waiting in the ER when we arrived]” Yes, but that’s not the only reason the pricing and billing are so byzantine. Now I am only speaking from the perspective of a lowly MD and not one of the Gods of Adminstration, but what is billed and what is collected have very little relationship to each other. Massive discounting is built in for the insured, whether privately or through govt programs. Let’s take a concrete example (numbers are made up, but close to reality). Dr Jones orders an echocardiogram… Read more »

TomA
Guest
TomA

First common ground. Libertarianism equals unrealistic fantasyland and hypocrisy bad. Same applies to the notion that we can talk our way out of the mess that we’re in (mega fantasyland). Consequently, the dissident movement’s focus on finding the right magic words to spread around and thereby rally the masses is also not a realistic solution to what ails us. At best you just slow the rate of veering into the ditch. Hard truth is a bummer both ways.

Member

Another reason things like basic healthcare for all can’t work in America, is just how much of a racket healthcare has become. Billions and billions of dollars are bilked every single year. Just recently I read a story about how Indians and other Asians ran the biggest medicare racket in our history selling fake back braces and knee braces to medicare patients via telephone and TV ads. God only knows how much of the federal and state spending on healthcare is just entirely fictitious and just a racket. What is the libertarian answer to a lot of the high costs?… Read more »

BadThinker
Guest
BadThinker

To me, the biggest problem with healthcare is that we think it actually can make people better. There are a few advances, sure, but so much of ‘healthcare’ simply overpromises and underdelivers.

Dmt
Guest
Dmt

The Massachusetts crook you were thinking of is my old Congressman John Tierney

ReturnOfBestGuest
Guest
ReturnOfBestGuest

Tierney married his mobbed-up client. Her kid got the soft bounce for dealing back when I was a kid. She took the hit for him when the feds were closing in. And was let loose weeks into her “incarceration.” A week ago Wednesday there were three (3!) carjackings by “teens” in the Merrimack Valley. One North Andover guy just pulling up in his driveway coming home from work. How much media coverage did that get? Or the off-duty cop assaulted in the YMCA parking lot. Valley “teens” again!

Major Hoople
Member
Major Hoople

You refer briefly to Sam Francis. When I came here four or so years ago I had no idea who that was…reading him was a revelation. His book “Shots Fired,” is available and tho 20 years old, is fresh and current today. There’s a good introductory essay on him at Amren.com https://www.amren.com/features/2019/09/sam-francis-the-prophet/ Just as an aside, Francis and a lot of other good people were bounced and attacked by National Review. That place is in the dumps now, and all the weasels who did it have been let go, politely, with nice press releases, but are now “pursuing other interests.”… Read more »

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

The Zman may be basking in my salty libertarian tears, avidly drinking my milkshake, but Severian is in thrill kill blackpill over at Rotten Chestnuts!

(Thanks to a reader for the reminder of uni goodness.)

Wait, wait, I got a solution:
Let’s ban weed and beat the kids!

That’ll solve, like, everything (!)– and I’ve seen the light, I am now a proud Conservative!

Love you, Benny! Love you, Sean!
You’re a great American!

Sleepy
Member
Sleepy

Z Man, I’m sorry, but I have to take you to task for comparing the Shire to libertarianism. The Shire had, among other governmental powers: Mayor of Michel Delving (an autocratic ruler, with no legislative or judicial backstop) a Thain (a ruthless military strongman ) the Warden of Westmarch Shirriffs and Bounders (jack booted government thugs) the Shire-moot, and captain of the Shire-muster and the Hobbitry-in-arms (collectively right wing storm troopers) and two Big Men: the Master of Buckland the head of the Took clan Libertarians? Bah! Good solid Fascists if you ask me!

Jim Smith
Guest
Jim Smith

You miss the point, Sleepy. “The Shire” is fantasy land. It doesn’t exist. It isn’t real.

G Lordon Giddy
Guest
G Lordon Giddy

The thing I hear from John Mark and the idea of propertarianism and a new constitution that I think is correct. Our nation here in North America has a long history of a constitutional document laying somewhere on a table, after all we were founded by the English. The normies need a constitution similar to the one we currently have to get buy in in my opinion. It will not be easy to move to anything like a heirarchal form of government even though our democracy as currently constituted is a failure. We must take baby steps to move away… Read more »

Member

As a Kentuckian, allow me to expound on the fall of Matt Bevin for a few minutes. Short version: Matt Bevin is a flaming douchebag who managed to barely lose his race while every other GOP candidate down the ballot not only won his or her race, they curbstomped their Democratic opponents by double digits. Bevin’s loss is on Bevin and Bevin alone. The closest race down the ballot was for Secretary of State, where the no-name GOP candidate beat a former Miss America by over 60,000 votes. Watching his victory speech, one was left with the impression that no… Read more »

AC this is broken
Guest
AC this is broken

Regarding universal healthcare: Britain’s NHS has found a novel way to cut costs – deny care to white people while still requiring them to pay taxes.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-bristol-50286473

Someone
Guest
Someone

Libertarians have become the new left in some ways. They truly think that race, IQ, and culture do not matter. I’m not really sure where the open borders stupidity originated. Things like community and social trust among people who look similar is lost on them as well.

Member

” crooked as a rams horn”. that is a nice colloquialism, I’m going to start using it

Member

The straightforward answer is probably the most likely answer: After Mueller crashed and burned, Pelosi and Trump sort of agreed to a cease fire. Pelosi would tamp down “impeachment”, but let her crazies keep working on it to keep the flame alive and avoid dispiriting their base. Trump wouldn’t let the Barr investigation get too far, or so Pelosi assumed. THE trigger that launched impeachment wasn’t Trump tellling Ukraine to investigate the Bidens. It was Trump mentioning “Crowdstrike”. Crowdstrike is the company the DNC hired to “prove” that they were hacked by the Russians. This so-called fact was accepted by… Read more »

sirlancelot
Guest
sirlancelot

Late to the party. Had a bit of resentment with giving the chosen people a pass but who can stay mad at someone who plays The Allman Brothers ?

😉