Thoughts on Turkey

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In my youth, military coups and revolutions were not common, but they were not unheard of either. Real countries like France or Canada did not have coups, but banana republics in South America had them with some frequency. Then you had the intrigues in the Soviet Bloc. A leader would suddenly stop showing up at public events and that meant he was sick or he had fallen out of favor. Africa would have revolutions with some frequency. We called them revolutions, even though nothing ever changed, but that’s Africa.

The general assumption was that a real country did not have military coups or revolutions because they had democracy of some sort. If the people were unhappy, they could vote in people they liked. If elements of the ruling elite were unhappy, they could appeal to the public for change. The military, instead of being an instrument of the ruling class, was subordinate to the civilian government and excluded from politics. That’s not a bad place to start when defining a modern country. Real countries have elections, not revolts.

I think this is why the western news services were having so much trouble fitting the attempted coup in Turkey into their standard narrative. Turkey is supposed to be different from the rest of the Muslim world. Turkey is a real country with elections and globalism. Sure, the political leaderships sounds a lot like the lunatics from the Arab world, but that’s just an act. It’s their version of boob bait for the bubbas. Instead of guns and abortion, their rednecks want to hear about Allah and the Jews. Turkey is a real country, not a banana republic.

Following along via SkyNews, the BBC and CNN, I had to laugh at the confusion of the news people covering this thing. They did not know which side they were supposed to support. Initially, they were just baffled, as they don’t know anything about the world that is not fed to them through their earpieces. They were reduced to stuttering through live images of people walking around the streets waving flags. Then Obama came out in defense of the Islamists and the rest of NATO followed suit. Instantly, the new media was anti-coup.

Another thing I thought was humorous about the news coverage was the repetition of the claim this coup was not a “21st century coup.” I first heard this said on SkyNews and then all of the news services were saying it. Whether this was “monkey see-monkey do” or the official word from the party is hard to know. What I found amusing about it is Turkey is not a 21st century country, but it is in the middle of a 21st century civil war, of which this was a part. The fact that this is not obvious to the alleged experts, who rule over us, does not bode well for our future.

In this civil war, Erdogan is the Oliver Cromwell of Turkey and this attempted coup was something analogous to Penruddock’s Uprising. It’s not a perfect analogy, but it helps explain what’s happening in Turkey. The army is the defender of the secular legacy of Ataturk and the defender of the old order. Erdogan is the leader of the new order, the Islamists that believe they can have a modern technological society, under medieval Islamic moral codes.

Everyone seems to agree that this event makes Erdogan stronger, but Turkish politics are so opaque that outsiders can never really know what’s going on in the country. This could have been an operation run by the secular military to get the Gülen cult removed from their own ranks. The Gülen Cult is thought to have a stronger presence in the police than the military so this could be something more complex. In other words, this may not have been a revolt against the AKP but a revolt within the AKP.

There’s also the fact that ethnic Turks are a majority in Turkey for now. Kurds are the future, demographically. That’s a big part of what has put the AKP in power. The Turks view secularism as the cause of the demographic decline. The organization of the Kurds into a single political party, denying AKP a majority in the last election is a glimpse of the future and the Turks know it. That’s why the AKP sent in the army after the election to persecute the Kurds. It’s a part of what is driving the Turkish involvement in Syria.

The civil war among the Turks is about what to do about the future, a future that will have more Kurds than Turks if something is not done to arrest the low TFR of young Turks. Turkey has the Western disease, but it is still an Eastern culture. In the West, civilizational death is celebrated in the form of open borders and multiculturalism. In the East, it is met with religious revivals and bloodbaths. David Goldman makes the argument that the Iranian revolution was driven by similar forces.

The Turks are faced with a choice. They can be fully Western and go quietly into that good night. Or, they can be Eastern and fight against the dying of the light. The former means modern technology and prosperity, for a little while at least. The latter means men in robes ordering homosexuals thrown off buildings. That’s what’s happening inside Turkey today. It’s a version of what’s happening in the West, but only in a country that culturally is closer to Byzantium than Brussels.

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Terry Baker
Guest

A stark choice. Is America also in decline, or just the left within the country?

Member

Back in the days of the Establishment, you had a much better chance of getting something close to the truth out of the press. At least the the experiences of WWII and the Cold War had made the Establishment into unapologetic realists. Whatever gloss they might put on the news, you knew that there was going to be a foundation of reality underlying it.

James LePore
Guest

If Obama’s rooting for Erdogan, I’m rooting against him.

Terry Baker
Guest
A thought experiment: Erdogan’s message is that western secularization is responsible for the demographic decline of the ethnic Turks, as it was for the Persians in Iran under the Shah. So he champions a return to traditional Islam for the sake of rescuing the Turks from minority status and eventual biological extinction. The secularist message is that all particular ethnic identities should be abandoned for the sake of a better universal humanitarian future. Question: Is this parallel to our current American conflict? Are traditional Americans somewhat like the ethnic Turks? Does the terror discredit the traditional side to the point… Read more »
Member
Terry, I think the multiculturalism is a symptom, not a secularist goal. In the 60’s, everyone from the foundations, to the Supreme Court, to the mainline religions was panicked over population growth. So they did everything they could to reduce TFR. Some efforts were out in the open, while others weren’t [I know this places me squarely in the fever swamps, but I can’t help but see a dark design here]. Since complex, biological systems are very hard to regulate and tend to produce all kinds of unexpected effects when you try, Zero Population Growth became Negative Population Growth (NPG)… Read more »
Terry Baker
Guest

El-Baboso -(love that crazy name) “…since we have aborted roughly as many babies as we have imported immigrants, if maybe just having let those babies be born would have been the better option.”

I’ve thought about that. I’ll bet it’s occurred to a lot of others. That’s the first time I’ve seen it expressed as both an argument against abortion and reckless immigration. It’s a debate stopper.

Anonymous Bro
Guest

Only problem is that a great number of those abortions (maybe most) are black. Something like 50 million plus. I’d rather have mestizos than blacks, thank you.

Anonymous Bro
Guest
I don’t think my mind is better than yours, but I’ll take a whack. The Turks are very parallel to the current American conflict. At least they’re doing something about their dispowerment, unlike the Amerikaners. To me, terrorism doesn’t discredit any ideology. Terrorism is just a tool, and a very effective one. In service of an ideology that benefits my interests I am prepared to support and possibly cary out acts of terrorism. Amerikaners will have to learn this someday soon. As a racial/religious outgroup, the Turks do not have my sympathy, and neither do Islamists. I am watching events… Read more »
Terry Baker
Guest

Thanks for the replies. Much appreciated.

James LePore
Guest

Terrorism, that is, the slaughter of innocent human beings to make a political point, not only discredits those who employ it, it condemns them to hell.

LetsPlay
Member
I think the answer to your question is in your first paragraph. “… he champions a return to traditional Islam”. This does not parallel what is going on in America in the slightest. We currently have a Muslim foreign body that is invading our “body” with no interest in assimilating. Rather it is “you will be assimilated” like the Borg. Conquer or kill. Period. Those of other cultures who are here live as Americans are not the problem. There is a race hustler/Muslim in the WH but he is stirring up the shit to achieve his ends of transforming America.… Read more »
Uncola
Guest

Excellent piece regarding wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight. Yet, sadly, for the majority of sheeple in the US, their only concerns regarding this will be how it might affect their Thanksgiving.

Severian
Guest
Obama came out in favor of the Islamist, eh? Now *there’s* a shocker! In all seriousness, though, it still fascinates me how The Gatekeepers still think gatekeeping is a real thing. It’s easy to stretch this analogy too far, but I can’t help thinking of the Reformation every time I see the media beclowning themselves. Oh please, Your Holiness, keep telling me what the Bible says… as if I can’t look it up for myself and see that precisely none of what you’ve been saying is actually in there. Turkish politics is pretty opaque, but anyone who chooses to can… Read more »
Terry Baker
Guest

Severian – methinks your Reformation analogy is basically sound. The printing of Bibles and the internet are having similar effects.The difference seems to be that the Reformation was about one faith and the political nature of the Roman church. Our situation seems to be two faiths in competition, one entirely political and atheistic, the other traditional and still connected to the faith debated in the Reformation. Does this seem right to you?

Severian
Guest

Sounds about right to me.

LetsPlay
Member

Terry, while I appreciate your comments, I have one criticism about your use of “methinks,” really, whenever I see it used by anyone. Just my personal bugaboo.

“methinks” – A really pretentious and annoying way to say “I think.” from Urban Dictionary

UKer
Guest
Don’t know about the TFR of Turkey as the line peddled to we weak-kneed, infertile Europeans is that they have kids so, as we need kids, lets bring them on board and try to ignore the muslim bit of it all. English schools can be full (or even more full) if we draft in lots of kids who can only speak Turkish. At least, that was the line that seemed to be attractive to all us wannbe-Europeans before Brexit (though there is much doubt if Brexit will happen before the EU goes pear-shaped) The one point I would make however… Read more »
Casius Lucius
Guest

Reichstag Coup, bet on it.

james wilson
Guest

Good call.

Drake
Guest

I’m starting to agree with those who suspect the whole thing was staged to justify a purge of anyone remotely critical of Erdogan. He just “happened” to have a list of 18,000 people to round up if there was a coup.

Everything about it stinks of fakery. The tanks stopped by crowds (Leopard tanks are stopped by drivers, not road crunchies), Erdogan landing at the airport with supposedly hostile fighters about, and the immediate crackdown.

Dr. Mabuse
Guest
President Bobo and his pack have great faith in calendar magic. Remember what John Kerry said when Russia invaded the Ukraine? “You just don’t in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pretext,” Kerry told the CBS program “Face the Nation.” There it is again, that belief that the mere passage of time in itself can abolish things. Like “the arc of history” or “the right side of history”, it’s a kind of automatic progress from bad to good, and all we have to do is enjoy the scenery as we… Read more »
Member

I lived in Africa when I was a kid and currently own a home in Asia. Went to Istanbul on a cruise a few years back. Never felt so much like a foreigner in my life. Will never go back.

Fuel Filter
Guest
You can twist and turn all you want, but what this came down to is barbarism vs. civilization. Naturally, as with the moslum Brotherhood’s takeover in Egypt, Mr. Kenyan Hussein chose barbarism, Remember, Erdogan famously said “Democracy is just a streetcar we use to get where we want” or words to that effect. He also said (direct quote) “The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our swords and the faithful our soldiers.”  He used every mosque in Turkey to rouse those “faithful” against the rebels which makes every moslum imam complicit in putting down this movement… Read more »
Kathleen
Guest

I agree with everything in your post, FF. People should keep in mind that Erdogan has strong ties to the Moslem Brotherhood, allowing MB to use Turkey as its international hub after the removal of Morsi in Egypt. The stated goal of the MB is to undermine Western countries from within.

JohnTyler
Guest
A look through history amply demonstrates that representative democracies are an anomaly, a pimple on an elephant’s ass. Aside from you everyday coup d’etat- the more common method of installing a tyrant – oft times the people vote for a national suicide (which is what happened in Venezuela) and some (many?) folks here in the USA believe Obama has taken on the role (after all, he routinely flouts the law with the full support of all the democrats in congress and with the tacit support of all the republicans via their inaction). The USA’s representative democracy totally feel apart in… Read more »
Karl Horst (Germany)
Guest
From the German newspaper – “Several senior military figures, and a top judge have been detained since the coup attempt, and over 2,500 other judges across the country dismissed. EU parliament president Martin Schulz stressing that the Turkish government, “Must not use this occasion to breach democratic rule, restrict freedom of speech and fundamental rights. One-man rule and arbitrary decisions are not acceptable in a country which is not only a strategic ally but also an accession candidate to the European Union.” We will see how quickly Turkey goes from democracy to dictatorship, which is always easier without those annoying… Read more »
snopercod
Guest
LetsPlay
Member

But of course! What won’t the ClintonCrimeSyndicate do for a buck?

Al from da Nort
Guest
Re effects on US politics: It will be interesting to see what happens to Erdogan’s public demand to Obama for Gulien’s extradition. In years past when there was at least the illusion of the rule of law at the top, Obama could have let some judge do the refusing. But by by giving Hillary a public pass on such obvious crimes against our security, he has demonstrated that he reserves to himself the right to decide what the law is. So how does he refuse his Muslim Brotherhood Buddy Erdogan_? I had thought that because the Clinton’s had no shame… Read more »
Saml Adams
Guest

The seriousness aside, watching the TV talking heads struggling to understand that the Turkish military has been the traditional guarantor of the constitution and democracy in Turkey was a complete hoot. The average television “journalist” has the IQ of a beetroot.

Drake
Guest

Channel surfing Saturday morning I was struck by how ignorant most of our media is. Other than Ralph Peters on Fox, nobody seemed to know a thing about Turkish history or the system Ataturk set up. They didn’t even realized the is was the liberals (in the Classical secular free-speech and religion sense) who were trying to take over – and the reactionary religious strong-man being supported by Obama.

Stephen M. Stirling
Guest
Saudi Arabia has a TFR about the same as Turkey’s, these days; so does Morocco. It isn’t secularism that’s doing it. The Kurds don’t have a higher fertility rate because they’re Kurds, it’s just because they’re concentrated in the more backward parts of the country. And that’s just a matter of time. When they move to Ankara or Istanbul, Kurds have the same reproductive behavior as ethnic Turks… who now have the same reproductive behavior as Germans. Erdogan can no more make Turkish women have or want to have more children than he can scold water into running uphill. Long… Read more »
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