Winners And Losers

Mass movements always reach a stage where they can break through and become legitimate social forces or they can fizzle out and die. They either take the next step and begin to attract a larger audience or they are a boutique fad. The neo-reaction movement of a decade ago is a good example of the latter. It was important on-line for a while, but then it lost steam and faded away. Its two main idea men have moved onto other things. The alt-right is at that point now.

If a movement is going to outgrow the pot in which it was a seedling, the people in leadership need to regularly reassess. The New Left in the 1960’s went through several such resets, finally becoming an intellectual and cultural movement that swept the major institutions of the country. One of the early re-thinks for successful movements is purging previous failed efforts and failed leaders. The New Left figured out why the old CPUSA guys failed and made sure to avoid the same mistakes.

Last summer the alt-right fell into the trap of Charlottesville and allowed themselves to be aligned with the bogeymen the Left has been using for generations to scare white people away from identity politics. Guilt by association is powerful stuff, because it works in a mass media culture. The result of locking shields with various white nationalist groups on TV was that the alt-right has become tied, in the public mind, to people who have been unstable and unreliable.

The alt-right, if it is going to be anything, is going to have to build its own thing, clearly separate and independent of the old white nationalist guys of the past. It has to stand alone and that means cutting all ties with the guys who like marching around in public pretending to be the freikorps. Whatever arguments can be mustered in their defense, there is no getting around the fact these groups have had half a century to make their case and they have failed miserably at ever turn.

Exclusively racist groups are not the only failures of the past. The paleocons were smart, creative and energetic, but they were outmaneuvered and eventually purged by the political elite. It is hard not to admire guys like Paul Gottfried and Pat Buchanan, who have spent their lives fighting the good fight, but it is also hard not to notice that they failed. Sam Francis was a great thinker and everyone should read him, but there is a reason these guys lost.

The reason they lost is they made the mistake of thinking the other side was reasonable and amenable to their arguments. The paleocons wanted to be in the club, not burn the club down. It was this desire to belong that was used to derail them. Even today, after all that has happened, these old guys still talk like this is just an argument between friends rather than bloodsport. If the alt-right is going to thrive, it has to accept that what comes next is revolution, not reformation.

Another useful lesson from past losers is the chain of causality. For as long as anyone has been alive, right-wing movements have started with politics first, hoping to rally people to sway elections. The result in every case was the effort being hijacked by political opportunists, who quickly set about trading the goals of the cause for entrée to the political class. The Tea Party is the most obvious recent example. It was an authentic grassroots movement that was quickly hijacked.

The one thing about rejecting the losers of the past is it clears the mind so you can objectively examine the winners. The winners of the post-war cultural revolution won for a reason. One reason is they built their politics on top of a cultural movement. The 60’s counterculture started long before the radicals of the 70’s started taking over Democratic politics. In other words, there were lots of people ready to support someone that spoke their language and understood their perspective.

I watched a documentary about the Weather Underground and one of the things that jumped out to me was a statistic. By the middle of the 60’s, Students for a Democratic Society had 100,000 members. The thing is, the group started small or grew quietly, focused more on building membership than activism. Groups like Identity Evropa may seem overly cautious, but the only way they can grow on campus is if the people in charge ignore them. Revolution grows in darkness.

Another valuable lesson from the New Left is they built independent organizations well outside the mainstream. Many of the fads of the era strike us today as being loopy and weird, but they served a valuable purpose. The radicals of the 70’s, who began invading the academy and politics, were born from these counterculture groups. Living outside the Eye of Sauron is even more important today, now that we have a full blown surveillance state.

Related to that last point is something else worth noting. The radicals of the 60’s and 70’s took every shot to establish who was inside and who was outside, especially when dealing with the media. They would charge establishment media a fee to attend their events but grant free access to their guys. They would use insider language in public events, to make sure you knew if you belonged. It was highly effective at attracting and keeping people in the movement.

The alt-right, mostly through serendipity and dumb luck, has a chance to be a legitimate right-wing mass movement. That is not going to happen if they keep blundering into unforced errors. The fiasco of the Traditional Worker’s Party should be a wake up call for the people leading the alt-right. They have to get smarter and they have to stop screwing up. The alt-right needs to get smart, or it will die. That means learning from the winners and the losers.

118 thoughts on “Winners And Losers

  1. The alt-right needs a fearless, strong willed, charismatic leader who can maintain message discipline, set priorities – strategize. The movement is going no where without a strong leader.

    • Just so. And frankly, that’s really ALL it needs. Spencer is incapable of being a leader – he’s too weak as a man. I think Enoch has talent but isn’t quite tough enough, though TRS is incredibly useful.

      Someone will come along. Just wait.

  2. A minor quibble: the paleo cons didn’t lose because they were too nice. They lost because they couldn’t match the funding the neocons had.

    That is all.

      • chicken meet egg – or so it appears. rhetorical question – can any movement get anywhere if it has attracted the opposition of the money elite?

  3. I am not sure what’s required in the long term, but right now, today, we have Trump in the WH. I have been disappointed in him at times, but we will never again have a president who is outside the political establishment, and I wonder if we are doing enough to seize this opportunity.

    This weekend there will likely be a million people “Marching for their lives,” and the left will gain a lot press in favor of more gun control. There should be 5 million 2A supporters, but there won’t be. There should be at least 10,000 people with pitchforks outside Paul Ryan’s Wisconsin office protesting this omnibus (a $1.3T disaster that was created behind closed doors and apparently funds PP, sanctuary cities, yet next to nothing for the wall). Democrat Congressman are openly calling on their supporters to use the 2A to take out Trump, and are threatening civil uprising if Trump fires Mueller. Where is the right?

    • Yes … that’s for sure. But we are a different people from them, and I fear that means we don’t go in for such shows. However, at some point it will have to happen — our side will have to march to demonstrate our will.

      Consider, the LEFT fielded “millions” on anti-war marchers in DC during the Bush 2 administration, yet I was still sending units to theatre when I retired in 2012, four years after Bush was gone. So we’ll see what this accomplishes.

      Whatever they do, demand and legislate, the 2nd was put there as the final safety on our social and political processes. If they move openly to gut or bury it, the repercussions will likely be catastrophic. (No advocacy here, just resigned sadness.) I don’t think any in our political class or among the intelligensia realize anymore how strongly we rubes out here feel about this one thing. Where they used to own guns themselves, hunt and belong to elite shooting clubs (see the Creedmore ranges), and serve in the military, they have for decades separated themselves from these “low-brow” interests, and so further alienated themselves from those they believe they rule.

      So I may not go to DC to protest (childish fools), but I know what the 2nd intended, and I can verify that many others out here in the cultural sticks do too. They are doing their own version of protesting. Those people are right now emptying the shelves of ARs and ammunition — today.

      And in both English and American historical tradition (redundant??), later elaborated by Militia Acts (1792, 1862, 1903 et al), Constitutional Amendment, and in Title 13 US Code, Section 311, one can clearly see the intent of and our need for the right to keep and bear arms. The Government did not afford to us this right; it only stated clearly what was so manifestly and essentially a natural human right … the word-wizardry of the LEFT notwithstanding. This is what the LEFT, and all those gullible, young, ignorant future Storm Troopers of Social Justice don’t fully grasp.

      We are different from them; we don’t generally go in for self-righteous, tittilating shows of outrage and pompous virtue. But I sense something is happening, and that the election of Trump was just the opening act of some final scene, should those our betters not respect our rights.

      So don’t despair yet, Jennifer. I don’t think we have any good and clear idea of what’s really going to happen. But I believe the 2nd will not go quietly to its grave, and if dragged there screaming, I fear this nation itself will not long stand (not an eventuality I seek; but one that seems a dismally likely prospect should our masters and their functionaries on the left continue to press).

      PS: As you’ve probably seen from the Omnibus Spending Bill, we can expect nothing from the Republican party, or from the bulk of the elected Republicans in Congress. They save their efforts for their real constituents — over on K Street.

  4. Time for a new term: nihilo-con.

    We reject all to the Left; we reject all to the Right; we reject all commitments; we reject the libertarians and we reject the lessons of Christianity.

    Can it be that we accept some primal thing here? Or are we just like the enemy, divorced from the past?

  5. The left is “organized” the same way ant colonies and bee hives are — it’s all instinctual. They just throw a 1000 cadres at some issue, and count on at least a few of them “hitting the target”. Technology is going to break their monopoly on cultural production, just like it broke their monopoly on communications.

    Distribute entities (companies, teams, institutions, etc) are the key to breaking their hold on society; they can only thrive in large “bodies” as they are so harmful to the host. smaller hosts will die off too soon — to be of use — when taken over. Also small groups are better able to fend off weirdos and trouble makers.

    The pendulum is *always* moving, and now (and for the foreseeable future) it is moving *away* from the left/progs.

  6. Godwin’s Law aside, I am currently reading Mein Kampf. Hitler’s section on propaganda is quite a well thought out discourse on making a successful movement. By all measures he was successful in his use of propaganda to rally a nation…until he wasn’t.

    • I love Sarah Palin, a beautiful and desirable woman. She wrote a book. It sucked.

      Hitler’s stuff makes Sarah – or her ghostwriter – look like Victor Hugo.

      • PN: True. I’m surprised at how much I’m enjoying the read expect for the racism theme.

  7. The big problem is that most people don’t care about content. They are more influenced and moved by form. It’s not what you say but how you say it. And this is a horrific concept for people who identify as conservatives; because there seems to be a bifurcation (in Europeans anyway) where some people are drawn to content and others to form.

    And it appears that self-identified conservatives who are more concerned with content are in the minority. Trump won because he understood this. He understands intuitively that images, gestures and sounds made in a certain way can influence people more than carefully reasoned arguments. Although, he certainly needed and needs to make good on campaign pledges, nevertheless, this city-bred strong man was able to intuitively express and respond to this fundamental bifurcation.

    • I don’t agree, not exactly in any case. Millions of people – God bless them – vote for ‘A’ or ‘B’ (the only choices our wonderful ‘system’ permits) and go about their business.

      They don’t read blogs or Aristotle, but they go about their work; they aren’t stupid – they just don’t waste time. Bret Stephens, Kevin Williamson, or NYS governor Andy Cuomo might tell them that they are unwelcome parasites tainting the land.

      It’s what Cuomo’s ancestors were telling the Seneca 250 years ago: Fuck off and die – we need your stuff and we’re going to take it. Oh, you have muskets and copies of the Constutution? Well, we have lawyers and howitzers – what do you think of that?

  8. A useful movie: The League of Gentlemen (1960) starring Jack Hawkins, Roger Livesey, Nigel Patrick and others. Hawkins plays a British colonel forced into premature retirement by a cost-cutting Labour government, who then decides to avenge his honor (and score a big pay-off) by planning and executing a “perfect bank robbery” using the organizational and logistical skills he’d learned serving his country, as well as the special skills of a small band of ex-army specialists with varied post-war problems of their own, personal, financial, legal and moral, generously splitting the take equally with all of them.

    It’s an alt-right film, avant la lettre; it’s about pissed-off legacy Brits tossed aside by a “changing” Britain. And all the sympathy of the viewer is with the “criminals”.

    As to “organizing” alt-right operations, on the scale of the “realistic and measurable” result, the film – aside from being highly enjoyable – offers useful insights into local planning and leadership; none of our grassroots efforts will change the world, but we can sure fuck it up, one operation at a time, like the Partisans in Yugoslavia. It’s all we have now; culturally and institutionally, we’re licked.

    We don’t have to rob banks – yet – but how about trolling the local school by breaking into its storage room, and replacing all the Howard Zinn US history texts with a pile of Jared Taylor’s White Identity: Racial Consciousness in the 21st Century, or JT Gatto’s ‘Underground History of American Education’.

    Operations of this kind, replicated by dozens of small, sharp groups acting on the ‘League of Gentlemen’ template, might not overthrow the masters, but it would weird them out, and a few kids might get their hands on dangerous texts.

  9. They’re gonna have to move back into the cities. And they’re gonna have to start going to art and film school. Yech! But, I’m afraid so people.

    You can write and read all the brilliant essays in the world but nobody cares.

    • You are right on both points. If we want to take back the culture at its base, we have to stop complaining about the fine arts and ‘infiltrate’ them, the way the enemy did. Robert Frost did not ‘morph’ into Maya Angelou as the “national poet” without such infiltration – obviously public taste had no part in this transition.

      We’ll have a chance when our naturally ‘conservative’ kids stop pursuing careers in banking and engineering and start writing poems and living in unheated attics. Let the SJWs run the power grid and maintain the interstates, the water supply system, the emergency services; we’ll be occupied with working out our thoughts on life through painting and music and poetry.

      Total collapse will ensue, but it will be funny, in an apocalyptic kind of way, and as we’re headed for total collapse anyway, why not have some fun?

  10. The left in the 1960s was a subversive movement that emerged within a society that welcomed its subversion.

    America in the 1950s celebrated the beatniks as manifestations of American freedom, idealism, and youthful energy.

    In the 1960s the counter-culture was celebrated as the embodiment of America’s spiritual values, at a time in which the most damning characterization of communism was its materialism – its lack of “spiritual” values.

    In contrast America had a rich fountain of “spiritual values” of which exhibit 1 was our youth, our counter-culture, beatniks, hippies, glam rock hedonists, yuppies and civil right supporters.

    Traditional America allowed the counter-culture, welcomed the anti-war movement, the “civil rights” movement, the sexual revolution, the war on poverty, the burning of bras and the opening of closet doors to liberate deviants of all kinds. We even applauded the liberation of the mentally ill from the institutions that kept them from “fully participating” in our wonderful democratic society.

    The culture of sex and rock and roll was welcomed by American at the movies, radio, TV, popular magazines, clothing fashion, automobiles – everywhere in our consumer society. Free love and do your own thing won the day. Whatever gets you through the night, won the night.

    The Alt-Right faces a contemporary American establishment that is bellicose in its hostility against white subversives.

    What we face today is the challenge of a struggle for freedom against an establishment that stands ready to deploy whatever violence it takes to destroy those rising to demand freedom.

    The Alt-Right is in the position that freedom seeking Chinese face in the People’s Republic.

    Freedom fighters in totalitarian societies must flee like the Miami Cubans did from Castro’s Cuba after the 1959 revolution; or they must destroy and kill the tyrants like the Romanians did with Nicolae Ceausescu. To destroy a tyrant you need a paramilitary organization. The Contras in Central America, and Colombia have been U.S. sponsored proxy agents in fighting their home grown communist tyrants.

    Even Panama’s Noriega required some armed intervention to remove him from power.

    Fighting and winning an insurrection against a totalitarian establishment is not possible without the support of the population. South America is full of examples of dystopian establishments that cannot be dislodged (think Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, Peru, Argentina, Brazil) because the local population supports their tyrants.

    Are we ready to defend our freedom of speech, privacy, property, even if it takes an armed insurrection?

    And what will we do if we confirm our fear that the new Americans the establishment has imported and relocated among our midst support our establishment’s tyrants to the point of being ready to fight against us? Will we flee to Cuba or Taiwan? Go underground like we would in China or Venezuela? Sit and wait as in South Africa?

    It’s not clear that the communist that have taken over our country have any lesson to teach us about how we could take our country back from them. They know they stole our country, and will not give it back voluntarily.

    • You made up so much shit in the first couple of paragraphs, that I stopped reading your “novel” at that point.

  11. Molding was one of the neoreaction idea men, who was the other? And I’ve never heard of the Traditional Worker Party.

  12. “Alt Right” is just a name for a formless entity which promotes a few core principles. The face of the Alt Right is a handful of polemicists, who voluntarily have undertaken to promote those principles. Nobody has the authority to include or exclude, punish or reward. At best people will pull different ways and with luck a viable consensus will emerge.

    The main reason the old White Nationalist movement failed was not optics, it was because it was too early. LIfe was pretty good and the ”sane, objective people” were completely uninterested in rocking the boat. On the other hand, the Left was motivated by self hatred and the zeal to destroy. There was not, and still is not, that kind of Messianic fervor on the part of what is loosely called the ”Right.”

    If the system manages to hang together and if enough whites aren’t forced out of their comfort zones, the dynamic of reaction will never develop The weak sisters who are put off by a flag aren’t going to do anything useful, that’s for sure. They will always find an excuse not to.

    I doubt ”we” will disappear. After all, even today, one can see Romans in Central Italy. They are not the majority, but they aren’t uncommon, either. I even suspect most of the traditional European ethnics will survive, they will simply be expats everywhere, like the jews. As far as Americans are concerned, who cares? America is just a place where people movef to make money and we are just mostly atomized, deracinated consumers. Most have no historical or cultural sense and many are actually proud of it.

    • The Alt Right should focus on two alternate plans. One, ethnonationalism as the hypothetical ideal. If we invest too heavily in this we get bogged down in the ethnic cleansing argument. Two is white identity. A post national world will be based around race, just like Asian-american versus actual Asians, who hate each other in their home countries. The Alt Right should build that identity for “European-Americans” to survive the later half of the 21st century and beyond.

  13. I will say that the paleocons, Traditionalists, even neo-reactionaries can at least serve as intellectual sources for the Alt-Right. In other words, read their books (or blogs in the case of Moldbug). If you go the “safe” route of so-called respectable conservatism you will end up with defeat-equals-victory stuff from guys like David Brooks or Ross Douthat, trying to impress their liberal friends with how tolerant they are; or neo-con stuff which is basically the same as leftists on cultural issues anyway. For me it was bracing/shocking to read things don’t shy away from race realism or criticism of sexual license.

    As for problem of building a movement or community, the fact is that even in areas that Trump won it’s rare to see people openly proclaim support (I speak from personal experience). And this is just Trumpism we’re talking about, not true Alt-Right stuff. People are scared of being outed, though I suspect they’ll vote for him again the privacy of the voting booth. I think if Trump wins re-election it will help. Right now a lot of Trump-voting normies halfway believe the media narrative that tells them Trump was a big mistake for the country (the constant stuff about his low approval, etc.) but don’t worry, in 2020 you can redeem yourself by voting for a person of color Dem.

  14. I was just curious, mainly to see what happens next (the FBI knocks on my door?) so I went to the website and joined Identity Evropa.

  15. The Alt right got something very important wrong. You dont gain power from organising. You are able to organise because you already have power.

    1) To organise, you need power.
    2) To get power, you need elites.
    3) To get elites, you to bring in new elites, you need to overthrow the current elites, or you need to convert the elites.

    The route to power for the right is convert some elites. To do this you need to change the culture.

    Entryism and slow, careful organising is important. But ultimately you win the culture, you win elites. Then you can use the existing infrastructure to advance your causes.

    No war but the meme war!

    • Organizing is a lot of work and takes an intense amount of time and dedication.

      The right, including the alt, is far too lazy to do the work. That’s why they always talk about red pilling and other short cuts to growth.

      The only thing that works is work. Can’t talk your way out of this mess with talk alone.

      • Damn right.

        I’m more than willing to put in the work if anyone else is willing as well. We might be able to manage a peaceful solution

        If we can’t waiting around for collapse or for the other guy to act is just as much a fail train,

        Its not the time as we’ve just begun to fight the ideological war, hell to acknowledge as I’ve been saying for years that the Right doesn’t have an ideology beyond money cucking

        Once that’s done, putting in the political work and well organized getting harder, more ruthless and ready to fight if it fails is next

        Globalists and Leftists aren’t going to give up power willingly, many people won’t self deport and degenerates won’t stop pushing their degeneracy unless they are made to.

      • I knew you had a beard! Eyeglasses and some thinning on top too. Hell that’s most over 50

    • For unwashed, filthy third world parasitical cultures devoted to an outdated social political structure?

      They are net consumers, like locusts. Feeding on the works of others until their countries look like they do today.

      Eradicating then would do much to strengthen bonds in a newly minted society.
      Common purpose, shared strife and victory, all that jazz

    • But remember, “goat fukkers” can’t possibly be dangerous. They ran Egypt recently and have a strong, covert, presence in the USA.

  16. A recent online development that is getting more eyeballs on the altright are the “internet bloodsports” shows hosted by Andy Warski and Jean-Francois Gariepy. I don’t know where Warski came from, but he’s never been altright. JF has a scientific background, I believe as a biologist. He’s knowledgable about race.

    For those not familiar, they host long (over 3 hours) discussions with several guests about subjects such as the JQ, race, individualism, collectivism, the ethno-state, etc. The participants come from different camps, so the sparks often fly as they spar over their beliefs. A much-talked about example is when Sargon of Akkad fared poorly in his match with Richard Spencer.

    Some of the shows have included Roosh, Styxhexenhammer, Jazzhands McFeels, Mike Enoch, Halsey English, Nick Fuentes, Greg Johnson and even Jared Taylor. Taylor didn’t have an opponent because all of the liberals Warski knows didn’t want to go against Taylor.

    The youtube character Baked Alaska is also starting to host shows. Last night Spencer debated libertarian Adam Kokesh.

    These shows are getting a good number of views, relative to what the altright normally gets. The Sargon-Spencer show has drawn over 450,000 views.

    • Those Warski shows are a good example of what I mean by building outside the wire. The mainstream media will never watch these things. But, lots of people can tune in and here good back and forth that they can’t get anywhere else. Spencer is very good in that setting. He’s terrible giving a speech or organizing an event. I like Spencer but he is not a leader. He’s a personality. he does his best when talking about issues in a setting where he gets a fair hearing.

      As an aside, Halsey Not Really English wiped the floor with Enoch. It’s a good example of what happens when you only engage with true believers. Enoch was unprepared to face a blustering bullshitter like Halsey Not Really English. Fuentes, in contrast, clobbered Halsey Not Really English. That was a good show.

      • I agree with you about Spencer. I cringe when I see him leading rallies, yet debating someone in front of his computer screen, he’s very good. I’m amazed at young (19!) Nick Fuentes. The kid’s a natural debater and is one to watch. His takedown of Halsey was fun to watch.

        • I hope to spend a little time with Fuentes at AmRen. maybe buy him a Shirley Temple. Last year, there was a young guy Audacious and I had lunch with who was very impressive. That’s what keeps me going.

          • Agree on Spencer. Fuentes I would adopt as my own. Good future and very sharp.

            Andy Warski isn’t really a sharp knife but he is the one moderating and providing the platform. I feel like I am hanging out with my son’s friends when I listen in.

            JF, yeah he has some history.
            Enoch, those souless eyes creep the hell out of me.

  17. You all shouldn’t discount the Great Man Theory. While I generally agree with the criticism that Great Men and the changes they bring are products of their social environment and timing, that doesn’t discount their impact. They are the spark that ignites the bomb. Without that spark the issues just ferment under the surface.

    It should also be realized that revolution, especially violent revolution, is typically brought about by a very small subset of the population. Once these men (and they are invariably men) are sufficiently motivated by a Great Man, than it’s game on.

    Whether western civ is at that point where we’re just waiting for the Great Man to come along is open to debate. And no, DJT is not him though I love that guy. But trust me, you’ll know him when you see him.

    The future, difficult to see it is.

  18. Some years ago Derbyshire referenced the parable of the iron room by Lu Xun. Google it if it doesn’t ring a bell. That really hit home with me. Sometimes (often) I think our ultimate defeat is inevitable and perhaps it’s better just to sleep through it. My natural pugnacity keeps me fighting but it’s very discouraging. We are literally losing to men in dresses. We are watching in real time the engineering of another pointless war over what a 3rd grader should see is a false flag. Republicans control all 3 branches of gov’t but they’re the ones being investigated for things that they are innocent of but their persecutors guilty. I could go on but we all get the point. It just shouldn’t be this hard, but my tradcon normie (soon to be ex) friends can’t seem to get any of it through their thick skulls, and I’m simply not good enough a salesman to convince them.

    • Dude, you’re on the right track. This is the thinning times. Leave the weak and seek the strong. This whole big tent idea that we need more than the other side has, or that we should welcome all comers is progressive weakness, infused through three generations of immersion.
      Fuck that noise. Merit is based on tangible results. Surround yourself with the capable. And if you can only find three or four, then make shit work with three or four.

    • Republicans control the Governership and both House and Senate in 25 States, last time I looked, yet the flow of State funds for Mexican Lesbian Dwarf-Tossing Studies continues unabated.
      Put not your faith in Politics.

    • “we are literally losing to men in dresses”.

      Sounds like a final signal from a dying planet in some sci-fi movie; well done – and (literally) true.

  19. It would be interesting to find Zman’s views on his prediction for the alt right immediately following the presidential election. He did predict that the alt-right would likely fracture.

  20. What the alt-right needs is (1) leadership and (2) achievable goals. “Raising awareness” is valuable but gets you only so far.

    Teaching people about the many falsehoods we’ve all been taught is valuable. Reminding white people that they have every right to be proud of being white is valuable. I’ve learned a lot just from spending time on Gab. But gadding about in Nazi uniforms and waving tiki torches around is scaring people, especially when people don’t even understand what you want.

    • I’m a Right Winger , have read and listened to many of the WN nationalist leaders and I can’t tell what they want.

      Do they even know?

      Do those idiots really want National Democratic Workers Socialism an evil stupid ideology that failed in what a decades and change?

      If they just want snazzy uniforms, get a 3 piece suit Brooks Brothers and march with “liberty lanterns” it feels American is just as LARPY and less likely to scare the straights

      Hell a slogan like “1776 or bust” is just as White Nationalist in its own way and is tied to a winning ideology.

      I get wanting to send people back, I really do. We essentially need to severely limit future immigration (a few k a year) and deport working class poor migrants and their children as well and any who work in the non defense part of the government and very possibly the middle class low skilled ones but HITLARPING is no way to get that done and frankly annoys even people who might pay attention to you

      Frankly if the other guys wanted to make a straw man enemy they couldn’t have done better

      • “The other guy,” has a long history of infiltrating political dissident organizations and encouraging the worst possible behavior. TWP was almost certainly part of such an operation. So are many other outwardly garish organizations with violent rhetoric.

        The “optics debate,” is a pretty good way to distinguish friend from foe. Anyone defending armbands and vintage hugo boss is going to happily lead you into a setup as they have done more than once now. Sunk cost fallacy keeps otherwise normal people locked into these bad crowds. Don’t let people who occasion to say the truth sell you on something stupid.

        • I agree. Leftism is fundamentally a subversive ideology and method

          Think of Leftism as a reoccurring disease , it starts to pop up in times of great prosperity and societies with internal issues are doubly susceptible to it

          Its basically AIDS

          People on the Right who mostly favor free speech are especially vulnerable to it.

          The solution is a fairly unpleasant one, essentially you have to criminalize Leftism before leftism criminalizes the Right

          My opinion if we want to keep our free speech tradition which we do the best way would be a twenty year interregnum where Leftism is punished rather heavily .

          You can’t do that though without an ideology and finding a balanced one that allows humor and liberty and keeps the vinegar drinking prudes from just switching sides is tricky.

          Ideology first, everything else after.

        • The TWP leadership was composed of flawed, sincere, good men who were trying to organize our most beaten down brothers. I believe, from personal experience, that those in leadership were not infiltrators.

          • Sincere people in the right don’t have the SPLC on speed-dial, nor do they spend money raised to “train blue collar guys in trade skills,” on trips to hang out with Golden Dawn in Greece.

      • Our goal is a white ethnostate and we want movement towards that goal. Your disparagement of socialism is unimpressive. “Socialist” Scandinavian countries were great places to live before the immigrant invasion. Let’s argue about economics after we secure the demographic fundamentals. Personally, I advocate federalism, as the Constitution intended, where there can be a white Socialist Oregon cooperating with a white Libertarian Wyoming. One strong bond between both states together is that to non-whites, both states are populated by the evil Whitey.

        • “Our goal is a white ethnostate”

          They destroy entire countries. Do you really think they’re going to allow a bunch of Nazi, bigot, haters to break away in North America?

          • Until recently I owned a home in one of the most desirable zip codes in California. Eric Holder specifically targeted it for vibrancy because it was too white. Trump ended that program, but as soon as Trump is out, even if another Republican is President, that program will start up again. I wish you good luck.

          • I don’t understand your argument. If you don’t have the Army, laser-guided missiles, drones, etc. how are you going to found a white ethno-state?

        • I keep hearing “let’s argue about the economics after we get rid of the darkies” over and over again coming out of “alt right” types.

          The fact of the matters is that the Western world blew the shit out of itself – over ECONOMIC matters (capitalism vs socialism vs communism) – long before we were deluged with darkies.

          I’ve seen a number of paleocon type commenters make the observation that all the white people only started getting really pissed off about things like social security and welfare – once it became clear that the darkies were sucking up all the welfare – and they needed somebody to pay for the social security once they got older (and hadn’t bred enough children to keep the gravy train going) – so they buy into “immigration” – because it gets sold to them as a way to keep those social security checks coming in.

          You guys keep saying “economy comes second” – as far as I’m concerned – that’s just an admission of retardation.

          Sorry – but to the VAST majority of people – economics comes FIRST. You’re not going to convince anybody of anything if they can’t feed their kids. The damn commies focus on economics – by promising free shit to everybody. Their constant cries of “the rich are stealing all your money” – are an ECONOMIC issue. The constant cries of “equality of pay for women” – are an ECONOMIC issue. The constant forcing of “equality” between whites and blacks and all of the affirmative action crap – are ECONOMIC issues.

          Seems like a lot of people here think that history started in the 1960’s when immigration floodgates were opened to darkies. Sorry – but there was plenty of fighting going on before that – and it mostly revolved around ECONOMIC issues.

          I’ve noticed a distinct stench of sympathy for socialism amongst a lot of the commenters here and among other alt-right types. They try to hide it – and it’s probably leaking out because of their corrupt leftist pasts – but it’s definitely still there. Smell the stench enough – and you start to realize that you might be looking another turd laid by leftists. Smells almost like neocon – but with a few more decades of leftist confusion baked in.

  21. People also forget that Hitlerism (as it then was) got going first and heaviest among university students. If I were an organizer for Our Thing, I’d start on campus. Nobody in America is more miserable than a white male college student. They can’t hit on girls, they can’t hang out with the guys, their professors openly loathe them, they’re forced to regurgitate propaganda 24/7 (even in STEM classes)… an underground dueling society like Himmler, Heydrich et al were into — call it something catchy, like a “fight club” — would have 10,000 members within a week. Since pretty much everyone is forced to go to college these days, you really could get a freikorps going. Don’t keep records, and do your thing off campus, and there you have it. Find a nice, innocuous-seeming badge of membership — a nice *white* baseball cap, worn frontwards, say — and you’re golden.

      • It’s always the energetic and impatient that start the pebbles rolling down the hill.

        The smart co opt the charismatic to help it along.
        The wealthy bankroll it.
        The verbose craft the message.

        Keep your organization merit based.

        If results can be demonstrated, the message/goals are simply stated and the anger is warm you can bake a cake.

        Funny mustache optional, ymmv.
        And for all you haters, even Gene FN Roddenberry recognized the potential of the model. Imagine my shock at age five of seeing my hero Spock in ThaWrong ™ uniform! Only much later did I learn logical dissection of results without uncontrolled emotion.

      • Karl McHungus, I forget, but probably Richard J. Evans, The Coming of the Third Reich. This is true of any political movement, though — university students have the background, the training, and, of course, the copious free time to noodle all this stuff out. Lots of freikorps headbusters were happy to bust heads for the SA when the Party got big enough, but the really Nazi Nazis were all in college in the 1920s.

      • That’s what I’d do. Word of mouth only, talk to the guy in the snazzy white baseball cap. Give the U no excuse for expelling you, and use their own resources against them to organize.

  22. Currently among the Alt-Right (loosely defined) the topic of optics is being discussed. Guys like Ricky Vaughn and Nick Fuentes are fighting a battle urging alt-righters to clean up their act, to dress well, use American red, white and blue imagery in their visuals, sell their message in ways that don’t turn off “normies” and to get involved in local politics to infiltrate the system. Vaughn and Fuentes both mention Sam Francis often, who pushed this strategy as a way to change politics.

  23. The logical discourse of the alt-right should be distilled into public talking points that do not appear identitarian, but in practice are skewed towards our side. This can open up the door to more of our ideas because it will naturally divide the opponents into easily identifiable camps. Over time, those differences will become impossible to ignore and our side will morph into adopting some of the more reasonable viewpoints amongst the alt-right.

    The issue to seize is affordable family formation for the middle class. That is the key to blasting our movement off the ground. It’s an idea that resonates for millennial whites across political lines and naturally favors strong immigration restrictionist policy and dismantling/disempowering/starving the hyper-expensive leftist hives that universities have become. Paid apprenticeships in lieu of pricey university education are the first step. So, is bringing society to understanding the realities of the genetic inheritance of IQ. Amongst other ideas, these should be the foundation.

    The debt peonage caused as a result of leftist educational policy and the drive for College-for-all is the next $100 bill issue lying on the ground.

    Pick it up Z-Man.

      • Affordable family formation is incompatible with urban life and high population density

        We see this globally, in any society with an IQ 95 or more on average, maybe lower, the more urban a society becomes q certain income point the lower its total fertility rate. Its even slowly starting in Africa

        Throw in automation , immigration and female participation in the work force and you commit civic suicide.

        In order to keep profits high with lower wages you have to increase population with incompatible people, grow the state and still continue to increase efficiency

        Just as say trading Toys R Us for smaller toy stores was bad for the economy, trading Toys Were US for Amazon and electronic toys is even worse.

        Its a classic efficiency trap

        The way out is exactly what the Right can’t tolerate, economic nationalism with regulation that encourages wages and distribution

        And note unless the economy is spread out to smaller towns and cities it also can’t grow. You have to prevent clustering

        Problem is the only thing the Right caveat a few Paleocons (the youngest of us like me are over 40 alas) think about is money cucking

        Unless they put a healthy traditionalist society ahead of that there is nothing that can be done .

        Long term increasing stupidity (and I’m seeing a lot of it every single day) will lead to idiocracy than to a catabolic collapse

        At that point most of the people will die of hunger and diseases which will put the remaining people, a much smaller number onto a very different path

        History is full of civilizations who got to bit for their britches and died.

    • The deepest problem with American Nationalism (Fuentes) is that it is a bait and switch. A white conservative may be attracted to the patriotic aesthetic but he still loves MLK and judging people by the content of their character. When he realizes that the AMs advocate maintaining and increasing the white majority, he feels like he was tricked because the America he loves is about deracinated individualism. He will hold on to this love until harsh reality takes it from him.

      The Alt-Right only grows when whites are forced to recognize that most non-whites are fundamentally tribal and that a tribal conflict can only be fought tribally. Unfortunately, this American Nationalism is an exercise that we must attempt a few more times to teach whites that while they love liberty and the Constitution, most non-whites love demographic conquest and that is not going to change.

      • The left is making it easier for that MLK-loving white conservative to understand racial and tribal realities by accelerating their anti-white campaign. As we’ve discussed a few weeks ago, it’s becoming Team Brown or Team White. Take your pick.

  24. Lots of truth here, especially with regard to the New Left and its incubation period. There are books from all the way back in the 1920’s, 1930’s and 1940’s that sound New Left themes. Read some Wilhelm Reich sometime, or read the original novel of “From Here to Eternity” – it’s very different from the Sinatra movie, lots of stuff that New Lefties could relate to. Contrary to what a lot of righties think, the Hippies, Yippies, Weathermen and Panthers didn’t just suddenly appear in 1968.

    Also, for what it’s worth, I can’t think of a worse name for a party designed to appeal to middle-class and working-class Americans than “Traditional Worker’s Party”. It sounds like a bunch of particularly stogy Communists organizing Morris dancing…

    • Name-wise, I’d go with “Young America.” It’s even got a pedigree (not that anyone educated in an American school would know it). I personally favor “The Sons of John C. Calhoun,” but maybe that’s a bit on the nose….

      • I like “the Divine Right Party” suggested in John Kennedy Toole’s ‘A Confederacy of Dunces’.

        The party program is neither here nor there; I just like the name. It would shock and annoy the very people I hate, and would win -easily- the South, and uber-conservative Franco-Americans who still resent the capture of Quebec in 1759; it would be a base, damn it.

    • I recommend watching the documentary I linked. Many of the racial and sexual themes we hear today, were just gaining currency in radical politics.

    • “From Here to Eternity” was a shocker when I read it. Published in 1951? Wow. The Left has been at work for a long, long time.

  25. yeah, you have some good points there…but don’t forget that back in the day of white nationalism 1.0, there were far fewer nonwhites/immigrants around back then…there are a lot more nonwhite faces around these days…and what about 10 years from now? 20 years from now?

    Time marches on and change occurs…how are whites going to feel about white nationalism 15 years from now when america starts to get a south-african vibe to it? White normies might be just a tad more receptive to white nationalism then…cell phone videos of the anti-white massacre in south africa is just getting started…that stuff is going worldwide and the establishment cannot stop it…that is gonna be a massive red pill pretty soon…

    I am now more in the camp of accelerationism…I am thinking maybe we should vote for the most anti-white Dems…get them to show their true faces, to be as anti-white as possible…this is the way to redpill white normies as fast as possible…and that is something we really really need to do…

    all the points you bring up are interesting, thoughtful etc…but blood is gonna flow…white blood….and when those rivers of white blood start to flow, all these fine intellectual points will be for naught…

    • South Africa. That’s the one place where whites should just “get it” without any prodding, but they don’t. That was always the main issue with the WN people. They assumed they could wave their flag, point to the darkies and everyone would just get it. Instead, everyone laughed and continued as before.

    • A possible future scenario is Washington, DC, where the whites are willing to sacrifice their lives to further feminism. Or at least suffer violence. They in certain ways like being victims, it gives them street cred and diversity points. They really hate blacks though. And vice versa.

      Its going to be very interesting how whites deal with Metro. The subway is essential for the future of the Washington, DC, area. Sadly, the metro union is led by a black woman who threatens disparate impact lawsuits after any discipline by white managers. So, the union is destroying the system through gross incompetence and actual maliciousness.

      The politicians are attempting to throw more money at it, kicking the already battered can down the road. So far, to my knowledge they haven’t gotten a handle on the union.

  26. Communism collapsed without any internal opposition other than human nature it tried to undo. This could go the same way.

    • It will. All this talk about creating a mass movement is bull feathers. Sorry, but it is just a masturbatory revenge fantasy. Want to see how a genuine mass movement is built? Check out Munich in 1923.

      The only part of the 60’s left that was a genuine mass movement was the anti-war part, which ended in the early 1970’s. What made the left successful is that they “caught a wave” and rode it all the way in to shore. But they did not create the wave.

      Movies make it seem like only teenagers were acting out during the 60’s. I was there; it was everybody under the age of 60 (and a few over that age) that were fed up with the uptight Puritan culture, that had been dominant in the US since prohibition. The left tapped into this, while the right railed fruitlessly against it.

      And so that is how this gigantic mess we have now will resolve itself; by a large majority of citizens becoming sick of the b.s. and becoming open to new ideas and solutions. This process is well under way, but you won’t see it or know it exists, unless you have children in the age range of 13 – 25 (roughly). Even the non-rabid left is moving away from the bonfire the crazies are building.

      In short, those hoping for salvation from the alt-right are making a classic category error.

      • People were not only fed up with the uptight Puritan culture, they felt that these uptight people still made the Vietnam war happen. “The Best and the Brightest”, indeed. The culture was not only difficult to deal with, it was doing us no good, either.

        All of that has been flipped today. The culture of the Left has not only failed to take us to Utopia, it is burning down our society. Normal people understand that things are seriously screwed up. Huge majorities understand that the government and its proxies are spying on everyone, and that the elites have been screwing the rest of us all along. There is a wave to be ridden to the shore here, and it is based on the Leftist Utopia being widely understood to be a Dystopia. How to harness the frustration is a great question to ask, because the frustration is real, and widespread. I don’t know the answer.

      • Karl finally made a great point !
        I remember a lot of commenters here who thought Charlottesville was brilliant. I saw it for what it was… a total, possibly fatal, disaster. Spencer is David Duke 2.0, and the prestige media have highlighted him for a reason. The cathedral “creates” leaders of fringe movements, and then decapitates them in public to discourage normies who may have been tempted by the dark side.
        Karl is correct in noting that the hard Left rode a wave. They created nothing in the 60’s, but had a ready made rallying cry based around the Vietnam war which tens of millions of young people wanted nothing to do with, and a comfortable middle class which felt secure enough to think a little social upheaval was permissible.
        Larger historical forces are boiling underneath the surface of our society, and a few nitwits like Spencer or Heimbach are basically irrelevant to the unfolding of these larger forces. I can’t even understand how anyone would give someone like Heimbach the time of day. He’s a chubby loser with a personality disorder. No serious citizen would ever follow a clown like that.
        A large tidal wave is coming that will benefit serious people, and we should be prepared, but most of the Alt right simply aren’t capable of riding that wave. Demographic realities and barely concealed globalist plots are going to do more to change the minds of normies than anything a bunch of internet trolls ever will.
        Just reading a guy like Rod Dreher, and reading his commenters, will tell you that a growing number of people, even leftists, are seriously frightened by the increasingly totalitarian antics of the left, particularly with regards to the trans-mania now sweeping through our decadent society.
        A cold fury is building among the middle and working classes, and nothing TPTB will do can stop it.
        I suggest learning how to surf in anticipation of that giant tidal wave moving into view.

        • I’d like to believe you (and haven’t down voted you), but where is the evidence? If you didn’t go online for a week, just got out of the house and listened to people, would you perceive that “a cold fury is building among the middle and working classes”?

          Sure, lots of people who might be described as alt-right are angry — but angry about what? A big part of the problem is that whites, even those who haven’t been brainwashed into hating themselves for their alleged racism, can’t think except in conventional categories. That means, primarily, economics. Those freaking socialists! The cheap labor lobby!

          So whenever the natives start getting restless, they are easily penned up in the old corral: the flag-waving, tax-revolt, we-need-less-government movements that inevitably wind down. So far, the overwhelming majority that in some sense are on the dissident right can’t allow themselves to acknowledge that they are the target of a mass white genocide push.

          Their enemies (enemies, gasp!) are open about their anti-white goals. But there’s still something in white receptors that refuses to pick up the signal.

          It’s only partly explained by the selective reporting of the mainstream media. The other part is that whites just don’t want to know. It’s not that hard to hear the aggression of non-Asian minorities if you’re willing to incorporate a few nontraditional news sources.

          You say, “Most of the Alt right simply aren’t capable of riding that wave. Demographic realities and barely concealed globalist plots are going to do more to change the minds of normies than anything a bunch of internet trolls ever will.” When will the change arrive? After “demographic realities” and “globalist plots” have ground up any hope of effective opposition?

          • Good points.
            The left is overplaying it’s hand. They overplay it every day at every level. They don’t intend to stop. They intend on rubbing our faces in their agenda. This, both subliminally and overtly, rubs normies the wrong way. Even liberal ones.
            I don’t think there will be a massive, spontaneous awakening.
            I do live most of my life outside the echo chamber, and my experience, living in NYC, is that certain aspects of the hysteria of the left are beginning to worry normals, including liberals.
            As I mentioned above, I think the trans-mania, and the speed with which it has been shoved down peoples throats, is a game changer.
            HR departments are embracing this insanity with gusto, and it’s beginning to sting normal folks.
            We already know most liberals and mainline conservatives are hypocrites on race, living far away from the peoples and neighborhoods causing so much trouble.
            But the sudden onset of total media and governmental capitulation on the trans issue, in all it’s obvious ridiculousness, is concerning many normals in my neck of the woods, that being NYC.
            Too much, too fast.
            I mentioned Rod Dreher because I still read a variety of opinions across the political spectrum.
            His recent posts have begun to sound the alarm about an encroaching totalitarianism built around the trans issue. He has had dozens of readers, many of them liberals, telling of their political and religious transformations after having to deal with some aspect of the trans agenda that has affected them in their personal lives.
            They tell of joining support groups filled with dozens of angry, disaffected leftists who have been negatively affected by the insanity and have now switched sides, so to speak.
            This is not a small thing.
            Something is percolating under the surface.
            This doesn’t mean that everyone is going to become a bitter, redpilled racialist.
            But when you see the explosion of enthusiasm for a Jordan Peterson, or the mass defection of liberals over the trans nonsense, you know something is brewing.
            Some want to call it the “2+2=4″movement.
            A movement built around a recognition of biological realities, whether that be sex or race, and built around trying to stem the tide of the left’s hegemonic hold over academia, media and government by standing up and saying NO!!!

          • there is nothing or no one more vehemently opposed to leftist globalist totalitarian insanity than a reformed leftist that has seen it from the inside, through leftist eyes. the guy punching these keys is one, albeit 16 years gone now.

      • YES to getting sick of the BS and looking to new options ….. but it’s likely that critical among those will then be strong local groups …

    • I wonder if something totally ridiculous happening and the over reaction to it might help move things forward.

      This Nazi dog salute joke trial in England where the goofy jokester has been convicted seems like a good start.

      • You find actions that others make ridiculous or shameful because they are anathema to your values. The left cannot be shamed into good behavior. Miserable brown people from third world shitholes cannot be shamed into self support or thrift.
        Ayers and crew systematically had followers sleep with one another, puposefully breaking norms of heterosexuality and promiscuity. This broke down the individual sense of self, leaving a void to be replaced with something else.

        In short: it’s quicker and cheaper to just kill them.

    • Buy it could take 500 years too. Or, it collapse under the weight of demographics. What comes after that could be infinitely worse.

  27. It’s kind of frustrating to be patient when we see the masses of people on the right frustrated with the establishment. It feels like one good spark and the whole thing will go up in flames, but the spark never comes. Everybody seems ready to say “Screw This” but the alternative just isn’t present.

    • The reason is there is nothing on offer as an alternative. I think the alt-right should be focusing on building local groups, where like minded people can build social binds and social capital, outside the system. When a CEO hesitates to hire a heretic, because he does not know how many other heretics are in his ranks, that’s when we win.

      • Z Man;

        What do you think about Home-School Co-Op’s as a potential vehicle_? Their emphasis is on imparting actual education, maintaining Western Civ. and traditional values, etc.

        They already exist in some places on a spontaneous basis and would seem to fit your criteria pretty well. Many are ecumenically Christian based, set up because the government schools in their locations suck. Many government schools are now actually just feral-child day-care centers and parochial schools of Prog religion, explicitly designed to turn kids against their parents’ values.

        Young, middle class families are in need of help in todays economy since it now often requires both parents working to maintain a middle class existence.

        Anyone setting up any such co-ops would have keep a sharp look-out for poisonous feminists and SJW’s looking to come in and take over, though, just like they did the mainline churches.

        P.S. Don’t you mean *fire* a heretic… Though I guess the sentence could work either way.

  28. Does anyone see any traditional PaleoCons or old right types stepping up and joining hands here? Look at the speakers corner fiasco in England. A few pretty Alt right or lite types try to speak there and get shut down. Tommy Robinson mans up and defies them. Who else?

    Where is the fight coming from? Why can’t someone like Pat Buchanan get in on it and show support. I trying to think of who is out there that one can take seriously as movement leaders. I don’t mean anti immigration types like Jared Taylor who is doing fine with his battles.

    Lauren Southern, Richard Spencer, Mike Enoch? No one who counts is hitting the streets from the Alt Right or Dissident right. Writers write but we need more Tommy Robinsons.

    My heads a bit foggy this morning maybe I’m missing the obvious.

    • Most paleocons are too old to do more than stay up late to watch Wheel of Fortune.

      I’m not sure the Tommy Robinson stuff does much of anything, to be honest. It’s a day or two of theater and then it is forgotten. The guys being smart are Identity Evropa. They are quietly building local groups, outside the Eye of Sauron. That’s smart. They were able to have a get together without being raided by cops and meth heads in black hoodies.

      Making a nuisance on the street corner only works when the people on the street are with you.

      • It’s going to take a civil breakdown for the New Right to break out amongst the normies. I hate to continually bring up the Austrian lance corporal, but his movement has been the only one to succeed. Notwithstanding what it became, we need to really understand how it pursuaded people to vote it into power. The street marching SA (the equivalent of American whitetrash) and the Putsch of 1923 failed miserably. It worked when Hitler built bridges to respectable people after 1929, when Communist revolutionaries pushed the Center into making a choice. It isn’t coincidence that after seizing power, Hitler’s SS, the disciplined, aristocratic elites, decapitated the vulgar, low class SA.

        The Nazi Party went from being a fringe movement in 1929 to the dominant political alignment in 1933. Three years of economic and social breakdowns was the catalyst. Unless Europe experiences a precipitating event (ie a complete breakdown of law and order due to another muslim wave) we will see the alt right remain a small gadfly.

        • He was an artist before joining the army. He never stopped being one either. Unfortunately, he was quite mad.

          • Lunatic or not, Hitler seized power in what was then one of the world’s most advanced and powerful nations by shrewd – and remarkably blunt – politics. Hitler said in effect that you’ll get fucked in the ass by us, and you’ll like it. And sure enough; Germany liked it.

            Sorry to put it that way, but we’re all friends here, and there are no children about.

          • cerulean ORIGIN mid 17th cent.: from Latin caeruleus ‘sky blue,’ from caelum ‘sky.’

            What’s yours?

    • Last night I watched Stefan Molyneux interview Tommy Robinson about the Pettibone-Southern arrest and later they discussed the horrific Telford sex grooming gang issue. It was difficult to get through as Robinson described in detail what the Islamic men did to these underage girls. Here’s a subject that should make any normal human furious, yet, except for a very few (Derbyshire), all we hear are crickets.

    • Many good observations in the comment section here —

      As a retired military guy, I see clearly the problems we “traditionals” have at all levels with organization, planning, coordination and execution. All our efforts seems disjointed, and the factions generally falling on … this side … don’t appear to be working together toward any clearly defined objectives.

      Yes, I realize the arena of politics and culture is different from military operations, but the underlying reality is the same. Planning and execution is planning and execution. It’s funny that the LEFT (or whatever they are) seems so much better at coordinating their efforts than we do on the right — this being the realm of hard reality, and perhaps populated to a greater degree with those with a more “necessary” and unforgiving view of life. But they (i.e., the LEFT), have got this thing down now and is plowing us under.

      In the end, we will need both the Great Men, and a strong organizational base to provide a means for the people to fight back.

      I don’t know much about the realm of the AltRight, but I do know that what’s happening is catastrophic, and that if we are to retain that thing that we love, we have to start being more effective at what we do. And one of those is figuring out what the greater majority of us have in common (minus our own crazies), and get moving forward — together.

      Some good comments below about local action as the effective leverage point. Yes, and look at how that has changed for us in the last three three decades; a few examples symptomatic of our losses: American Legion halls and VFW posts are closing all over due to a lack of interest on the part of the younger vets; shooting clubs, once a fixture of American life, have been folding, or have only a few aged members left participating (there used to be girls shooting clubs in urban areas; many schools sported shooting clubs and hosted events — in my HS kids even carried their weapons from the storage area to the bus). Boy Scout membership has declined by more than half since 1970, in raw numbers, while our population has grown dramatically (of course, Scouting’s national board has been killing that organization for almost two decades now). Local organizations of like minded people are the key.

      Unfortunately, the LEFT knows what a danger those groups are, so they work incessantly to kill them.

      It will take a coordinated effort to turn all this around. As one who planned, coordinated and executed operations for nearly three decades, I can say I haven’t seen much that inspires confidence that this is in the works from among those who profess interest and concern.

      (NOTE: Not aimed at the author or commenters here — just a general observation. I think that sites like this go far to inform, engage and flesh out concepts.)

      I think we placed some hazy reliance on the Republican party to look out for our interests and protect our culture, but that just didn’t pan out …

      One thing I think contributes to this, and something that hit me more strongly in the recent months, is that we are suffering in this fight due to the reality of human natural affinities and capabilities of type … in other words, we ( …. ahhh …. RIGHT versus LEFT ….. ) don’t fall out into two separate groups of equal type; rather, we suffer from the reality of asymetrical sorting.

      They got a large helping of the crazies, yes. But they also seem to attract a much greater number of the creative (near delusional) types across all levels, as well as the more hyper-driven, obsessive and angry types. That lends energy and focus to their movement — and energy and focus we just haven’t seemed able to maintain.

      Then they coopted the wealthy, and took the institutions (military, education etc etc), one after the other. I think this is in large part due to just who is attracted to their side.

      We have to address this dis-symetry, along with the problems with objectives, message, organization, planning and execution, before we can hope to roll back this terrible human virus that’s infected our culture.

      • I think the answer to realizing what the core of the problem is to figuring out why the left always gains – and the right cannot seem to make much progress – is to compare the life of a thief vs. a productive man.

        A productive man has to deal with all manner of problems. Let’s say he’s a home builder, he’s got the weather, the potential of injury, sourcing materials, the time it takes to actually DO all the work – etc. There is a never ending list of issues that must be addressed and dealt with if you’re actually creating things and WORKING to sustain yourself.

        Now look at the thief. The creative person may spend a year (or more) building himself a house. How long does it take a thief to take it from him? A few minutes if he just breaks in and kills the builder and his family? That’s a pretty good return on time investment. And it becomes almost impossible to fight after a while – if you’re a builder and just trying to keep ahead of the game – and then on top of that you’ve got to fight off thieves – it pretty quickly becomes a no-win situation to actually create things in this world.

        This basic fact is why I think in the past – thieves were dealt with extremely harshly – and it’s also why in the current age the typical “it’s only money” type response you get from people when something happens like your car gets stolen or your home gets broken into …… is a good indication that civilization is breaking down. Nobody recognizes the rot that unanswered thievery introduces into a society.

        Now – the left – is pretty much always a bunch of thieves IMHO. Constant calls to socialism and communism and welfare and talk of “white privilege” – are all just high minded calls to thievery once you break it all down to it’s core elements. When was the last time you heard an serious leftist calls to “build a new world” – and actually MEAN it? My recollection is NEVER.

        I have been a builder of things my entire life. I’ve built and modified automobiles – and have spent the last 15 years working on renovating and building a home. If there is core truth I have gotten out of the exercise of spending what must amount to thousands of hours at this point doing work on my home – it’s that ALL of that life’s work could be undone with 15 minutes, a match – and a can of gasoline.

        The left wins because their job is much much simpler and straight forward. Destruction is very simple and easy – actual creation is hard hard work. Now when you convince people that destruction is actually creation – well then you’ve pretty much won haven’t you? Because it seems there are very few people who won’t succumb to the siren song of free shit.

        If you can’t get these core truths straight in your head – well then you won’t get anything straight IMHO. And from what I’ve seen of the vast majority of right wing “conservatives” – they simply don’t understand these things AT ALL.

        As an example: I distinctly remember the Tea Party hacks out there bitching about how “Obama is going to take away my Social Security”. LOL – if there’s a more perfect of how “conservatism” has lost it’s way in the popular mind – I can’t think of one.

        • Thank you for the comment. Certainly, their “method” provides them great advantage. The LEFT (?), or the groups they call to their banner, is certain willing to shrug off etiquitte — to heave aside the rules of gentlemanly struggle — and employ all means at their disposal. They go right for the Molotovs and war-hammers. Failing that, they do a credible job of setting up the bluff … our side, and the normals, at least THINK that they’ll just ‘burn it all down’ (see Berkeley, Ferguson, and a raft of college campuses). And sometimes, they do.

          We on the right … traditionals et al, whatever … are reluctant to engage in firebombing our enemy here inside our own lines, as we know there’s a good chance it will burn down the whole structure. And despite its looted and decrepit corpus, our nation, our history, our culture our traditions, our land, our dead — those things are precious to us, at least to those of us who know who and what we really are or were, and what we actually did.

          I see that we have three options: 1. ROLL OVER and accept the inevitable reality of the “Arc of History”, 2. SEPARATE (county by county, in large blocks as possible), and do so either peacefully … or not, or 3. Move to CONFLICT, with the goal of keeping the whole thing.

          I would prefer we could reach some peaceful accommodation and walk this back to a place where the lunatics of the LEFT (and all the rest) would let us live in peace according to Original Intent. But fat chance. I think that one passed us by when no one clamped down hard on their necks in the early / mid 20th Century,

          It would take a longer and much more boorish response to flesh out my thoughts on those three options. But, basically, I agree that it’s hard to fight the man, or the movement, that doesn’t care what level of damage he inflicts. We still care, so we are hamstrung.

          We wanted to teach the Germans a lesson, we bombed Dresden into ashes on Valentines Day 1945. The Japanese?? Curtis Lemay had an average of 525 B-29s over the Japanese mainland each day in June and July 1945. We turned their major industrial cities (save one) to ash heaps. The Emperor tossed in the towel, and the LEFT excoriated us for decades. But that was outside the fence line.

          It will take a little more convincing before current traditionals have the stomach to do that here inside the wire.

        • Thanks. I’m suprised that anyone reads what I write down. I just got to the point that I had to scratch out some of these thoughts building pressure in my “aging boomer” mind. It’s nice to see one is not alone. Appreciate the response.

      • i don’t usually like or offer driveby comments, but i understand and agree with your assessment with one exception. the head of the snake that is the left appears to be one thing, and may be another. every heard of the frankfurt school / gramsci / cultural marxism? these were supported and nurtured by very old $ from the beginning – not working to attract that old $ after proving effective. this has been going on for a while. griffin’s book “the creature from jekyll island” comes to mind.

        • Yes …. I have a basic understanding of the Frankfort School, and more detailed knowledge of Gramasci and cultural marxism, though I am by no means an expert. I do see that the rot is long-standing and pervasive, and believe that we are likely doomed, as the core of what is driving this rot is a thing that lies at the center of man’s being itself. I see this as related to a comment on Obama’s “Arc of History” construct — and of its pointing to social justice. To my understanding, that social justice endstate they seek is and will be an absolute human horror. Western Civilization contained within it some strains counter to this basic human defect (defects of course, that might have been perfectly adaptive in earlier, pre-agrarian environments). And Christianity did seem to capture well the threat from man himself in their concept of us all as sinners — a thing then requiring personal and social controls. But that concept is dying off, or has been papered over. The American project, as I see it, was originally a hard counter to the Obamian concept of that ARC — an intentional obstacle set in the direct path of what all those vile human drives — collected, polished and practiced, and right now named LEFTISM — hope to achieve. Unfortunately, our will to continue fighting seems to be flagging.

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