The Energy Of Religion

The other day, I caught a little of Jim Goad on Luke Ford’s podcast. I did not stick around long, as Goad went into a childish rant about religion. It was a bit embarrassing to see a middle-aged man carry on like a toddler demanding his binky. Then again, the sum total of atheism is a childish rant, demanding someone else explain the mysteries of religion to the satisfaction of an atheist. “Tell me how a loving God would let bad things happen to good people” is the typical rant. It is a question that can never be answered to their satisfaction.

Atheism is a good example of a negative identity. If Christianity did not exists. atheists would have to invent it so they could rail against it. You’ll never hear an atheists talk about the majesty or beauty of atheism. In fact, they never talk about it at all. Instead, it is endless complaining about religion, especially Christianity. The atheist defines himself entirely by his opposition to religion. It’s why they almost always inform you they are an atheist within five minutes of meeting them. They are like vegans in that way.

Atheism is nutty on two fronts. One is the core irrationality of it. The existence of God, gods or some supernatural force that animates the universe is unknowable. The big religions get that, which is why it is at the core of those faiths. For that matter, what we understand to be the universe could just be a kid’s science experiment in another dimension. Our world exists in a terrarium on the desk of some kid in the lizard people dimension. These are things we cannot know. That is the nature of faith.

This is where a “bible believing Christian” tells me I’m wrong. They know God exists because of something they read somewhere in their bible. Well, you don’t know that and saying you do puts you outside Christianity. The Catholic Church had a word for people who went around saying they knew things about God. They called them heretics and burned them at the stake. You can believe in God, you can believe he plays a hand in man’s affairs. You can believe anything, but you can only know what is knowable.

Belief is one of modern man’s oldest traits. It is assumed it co-evolved with language, for the simple reason both involve abstract thinking. The future condition tense, for example is about something that might happen in the future. This is not something that is real, that you see and touch. it is something you imagine. To express that, to even think it, you need language that can contain the idea. That is what language is, after all. It is a container to hold ideas and concepts that you can transmit to other humans, across time and place.

Belief works the same way, even simple beliefs that existed with primitive early man. To imagine a spirit force that animates the wind or the tides requires the ability to imagine that which cannot be seen or touched. Conjuring a spirit force as the explanation for the tides requires the ability to infer things from observation. This belief becomes a container to hold this idea. The stories that came to surround the existence of the spirit force are also containers, to make it easy to transmit this abstract idea to others over time and place.

As humans settled, their observations about nature mixed with their own ability to alter nature. The first breeding of dogs, for example, surely changed how people thought of animals and their fundamental nature. Throw in the complexity of human relations that arises from settled life and it is no surprise that belief became more complex. Those containers had to hold more complex abstract ideas, so simple beliefs based in nature were replaced with complex religious systems that could encompass complex ideas.

Put another way, just as our complex communications systems are part of what defines us as modern humans, our complex belief structures define us as modern humans. Belief, especially in the form of mature religious systems like Catholicism and its offshoots, is an incredibly efficient way of preserving and transmitting human experience and inferred knowledge. The Christian Bible contains vast stores of knowledge about human relations, just about everything one would ever need to know about human society.

A good way to think of this is to consider the gas tank in your car. It is for holding gasoline, which is the most amazing energy containing system we possess. Vast amounts of energy are contained in small quantities. That energy is so easily released, it requires only a small spark, yet it is so stable and safe, we lug vast amounts of it around at high speed on our highways. To top it off, it is relatively cheap. A thousand generations of human technological advance resides in that gas tank, powering your car down the road.

That’s why it has proven impossible to replace. By now, the West has probably invested close to a trillion dollars trying to come up with a replacement for gasoline and the equally amazing internal combustion engine. International huckster Elon Musk has driven himself to madness trying to build electric cars. Yet, we are no more closer to replacing the internal combustion engine than fifty years ago. Like solar power and renewable energy, the world of the electric cars remains an avatar that is always over the next hill.

Religion, and for the West that means some iteration of Christianity, is the gasoline and internal combustion engine of our culture. The long war on religion is not much different than the war on oil. The one difference is that unlike with cars, we did not wait for a replacement before junking the old technology. Instead, the West abandoned what worked for the fantasy of something better. We keep trying to make civic religion the replacement, but like Elon Musk, we are being driven mad trying to make it work.

newest oldest most voted
Notify of
Member

There is no known civilization which survived without a strong religious component, whether ancient Greek, Chinese, Aztec, or Medieval European. It is the driving force of humanity, the glue that holds societies together. As I recall, scientists have recently isolated the genes that control religious fervor. I don’t think I possess it, by the way.

Hoyos
Guest
Hoyos

Frankly, no. Christians can and do know God and Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox all talk about coming to the knowledge of God. The bit about the heretics is especially wrong, the concern with heretics wasn’t that they claimed to know something about God. It’s that they were either lying about God or were deceived or mistaken about Him in some serious way. We can know God is there we just can’t fully comprehend Him, which isn’t the same thing. God is knowable when He reveals Himself, hence revelation as the term used. If you’re going to throw Evangelicals under the… Read more »

Thisisme
Guest
Thisisme

For me, I know and walk with Jesus. Hes was a man. I am in led by the Holy Spirit. Sort of like an intermediary. I don’t think, however that I have the capacity to know God. It’s quite possible God is far greater and more complex than my humble existence can compare or know truly. After all God made everything including me. I don’t even know quantum physics. But that’s just me.

pyrrhus
Guest
pyrrhus

Heretics destroy social cohesion, that’s why they are persecuted.

De Beers Diamonds
Guest
De Beers Diamonds

This is why liberals hate us so much. They really believe that if we are the root cause of society’s (perhaps the entire planet’s) problems.

It’s why liberals won’t simply partition us off into our own country, any more than a Pope would appoint a Calvinist bishop in 1605.

MtnExile
Guest
MtnExile

Thank you. Saved me the trouble.

Johnno
Guest
Johnno

Yes, that is the orthodox Christian position. The existence of God can be inferred from observation of the created universe, and His nature can be understood to some extent by analogy with it, but ultimately He is unknowable except by revelation. As Aquinas says, “we can demonstrate the existence of God from His effects; though from them we cannot perfectly know God as He is in His essence.” (Summa Theologiae, I, 2, Art. 2).

Hoyos
Guest
Hoyos

Exactly, if He did not reveal Himself, who could search Him out?

dad29
Guest

Fortunately, He did. Jesus.

Member

As well as I might have said or better. Thanks. And yes, I do know God and not because of something I read in the bible, at least not at first. I don’t know everything about Him and don’t know why He won’t reveal Himself to another but I do know that if they never ask, the chances are much much lower of Him letting somebody know that he’s there. The LORD is a perfect gentleman. He will not force you to believe and He doesn’t have insecurities requiring your forced attention. Of course there the 60 million dead babies… Read more »

Member

I cannot conceive of a God that “becomes” angry. Ridiculous concept.

Member

Most people dwell somewhere between the pompous militant atheism that so often masks serious issues with self-confidence and the true blue believer in some form of organized religion. They know instinctively that there is some unsee-able, unexplainable creative force but they are not certain what it is. Even the Bible acknowledges this in a way (see Romans 1:18-20). The rise in the category of “spiritual but not religious” is only going to get stronger as the main driver of institutional religion, money, starts to dry up. What is needed now is a way to retain the linkage with the Western… Read more »

Jaqship
Guest
Jaqship

Indeed, most folks tire quickly when lectured by true blue believers, or by militant atheists. But these two groups get most of the press, thereby giving us the impression that they are representative of believers or atheists.

My guess is that many of those believing in unsee-able, unexplainable creative force are waiting for some leader, to present some combo of the best of Christianity, Judaism, Greco-Roman paganism, and Confucianism.
Camille Paglia strikes me as having a rather good feel for this sort of thing.

CharlieBaud
Guest
CharlieBaud

What is needed is a spiritual revival. There’s no halfway to truth, and trying to come up with some makeshift semi-Christian identity to try and hold the west together will only end in failure. The Universal Church is today, it seems to me, more definitely set against the World than at any time since Pagan Rome. I do not mean that our times are particularly corrupt; all times are corrupt. I mean that Christianity, in spite of certain local appearances, is not, and cannot be within measurable time, ‘official.’ The World is trying the experiment of attempting to form a… Read more »

Member

The vast majority of atheists have confused hating Christians with a disbelief in God.

Member

Pat Condell is the perfect example.

LineInTheSand
Guest
LineInTheSand

Atheism is a better example of a negative identity that American blacks. American blacks can affirm their culture of music and athletics. Atheists have little but decades old fury that Mom made them go to church.

Issac
Guest
Issac

Kevin has no values outside the catechism and Goad has none outside of individualism. Neither likes the white protestant plurality of North America. I’m hard pressed to say which was more frustrating to hear. Neither one learns a single thing from interacting with anther in discourse.

Kevin Michael Grace
Guest

Your comment is fatuous. The Catechism does not express “values”; it defines universal truths. As for my values, if you listen to Luke Ford’s stream, you can hear me express many of them. Catholicism is a not a cult, like Randianism or Scientology.

Member

You start out as a cult. Then your cult becomes popular and it becomes a movement. After it gains power, it becomes a religion. Then it splinters into cults (think “Mormons”), then the cults gain enough adherents to be considered part of the religion. Rinse and repeat.

Issac
Guest
Issac

Oh yes, how fatuous of me not to explicitly accept your truth claims about my people’s G-d.

Member

A simple question to ask all the edgy fedoras of the secular right: Has the West gotten better as Christianity has started to recede, or has it gotten worse? No, don’t tell me what your pet social theory predicts, tell me what has actually happened here in the real world.

I’m tired of arrogant lectures from people who suck at basic pattern recognition.

Tykebomb
Guest
Tykebomb

The problem isn’t that atheism makes a society worse. It does, atheist societies are decrepit. The problem is that belief in God is an untenable position. Right now christianity finds itself in the same place paganism found itself at the death of the western Roman empire.

What comes next must incorporate christianity as christianity did neo-platonism.

Member

There is nothing that “comes next”. Without Christianity, the West cannot be restored, and no atheist society has ever succeeded at being anything other than a dismal shithole. Maybe 20 years ago a counterexample of a place like Sweden might have seemed plausible, but we all know what “came next” there. Sorry, but Star Trek lied to you. Without faith, there is only death, on every level, from the personal to the civilizational.

LineInTheSand
Guest
LineInTheSand

Christianity probably, but not necessarily, leads to the end of the white race. After all, if you are going to share the same heaven with Tyrone, then why not let Tyrone impregnate your daughter? Tyrone is your brother in Christ! (I’m aware of the Tower of Babel story but that is easily superseded by “we are all one in Christ.”)

The white race needs a religion other than Christianity to survive. Why not the explicit flourishing of the white race?

Universalism is white suicide.

Hoyos
Guest
Hoyos

Christianity MADE the white race. I believe in honoring your ancestors probably a bit more than the next fellow, but before Christ they were horrifying. They told a few good stories and built some nice boats but largely they were just awful. Casual murder, more interested in looting than building, unpredictable, and just generally chaotic. If you brought them out of the past and dumped them in my neighborhood you’d see real diversity plus proximity equaling war. We must not be genetic calvinists, primarily because it’s not true. A man of slightly below average IQ can have great moral conviction… Read more »

Member

Jesus, a Jew, preached and touched all people. It’s important to realize that’s one reason the Jews did not consider him the Messiah. Christianity by definition and scripture is not colored, racist, or tribal. Jesus preached to all people and especially embraced untouchables, outcaststs, and sinners. It’s covenant is with all people who accept Him. Although we may need to embrace identarian politics to save us now the common thread of a culture must come from religion and it’s morals. Christianity must emerge out of this battle we currently face or else the world will be set back in an… Read more »

LineInTheSand
Guest
LineInTheSand

Ancient Greece wasn’t Christian. Rome became great before it was Christian.

I am not an IQ fetishist and I agree with your comments about character.

My message is that in so far as Christianity is universal it is potentially hostile to white survival. This is crucial as we enter times where whites as a group are under threat.

Jaqship
Guest
Jaqship

Yeah, and China was great with Confucianism, not Christianity, partly because Confucius cared so much about the impact of (“ordinary”, every-day) CIVIL habits upon character.
He urged refinement of etiquette, and VENERATION of one’s ancestors, rather than the “DWM” vilification of them (e.g. the Founding Fathers) currently in vogue among the “educated”.

One need not be a IQ fetishist, to assert that genetics are relevant to the prognosis for character.

De Beers Diamonds
Guest
De Beers Diamonds

Some people just want the liberal society of 50 years ago. Sadly for them, time machines don’t exist yet.

On a geopolitical basis, the rise in African populations will lead in to Africans controlling the levers of clerical power. That could lead to outright excommunications for not allowing the invasion. Francis’ decision to recognize the CPC controlled fake church in China bodes ill.

dad29
Guest

Excommunitations for ‘not allowing the invasion.’ Good God, man, take your prescription meds!!

Member

Bergoglio the AntiPope hopefully will go out in a whimper, but some fear he will bring Rome to the Devil. This is an apocalyptic vision that I hope does not transpire but seems to be a possible course.

A.B. Prosper
Guest
A.B. Prosper

I’m about as far from a fedora atheist as you can get but I think your question needs to be reconsidered, The US is the most Christian nation in the developed world , huge numbers of Whites, most Hispanics and Blacks are Christian as are fair numbers of other races. Other religions abound as well from Animism to Zoroastrianism (I met one the other day) and there isn’t an ethnic group in the US that isn’t made up strongly of religious people. Church going is common too. According to a Pew Poll as many as 2/3 of the US population… Read more »

Rod1963
Guest
Rod1963

First off our elites and intellectual class are utterly hostile to Christianity and traditional values and have in effect declared war on them for the last 50 years. Secondly, we’re not that religious or Christian compared to what we were in the 70’s and 80’s. Back then businesses were closed on Sundays and Blue laws were still effect even here in CA. In December the city would put up wreaths and lights on main street. Schools celebrated it, etc. None of that exists today. Our opioid and suicide epidemic is a direct result of free trade that gutted our industrial… Read more »

Hoyos
Guest
Hoyos

Plus you can’t measure religion like that, it’s frustrating for social scientists, but measuring things like character and conviction is a bear. Self reporting is a nightmare for this type of thing in particular. You can only really see it when you see it in action. How many great men are produced, what’s the crime rate really like, the illegitimacy rate, the divorce rate, etc. Mafiosos have been known to attend church if the wife wants them to, attendance means not quite nothing, but not as much as you’d hope, and saying you believe in God is basically like saying… Read more »

A.B. Prosper
Guest
A.B. Prosper

Not wrong especially on the opioid racket and financeilzation I’ll also note that 50 million immigrants tends to run up housing prices too. While I seldom agree with Reason magazine on anything, a long ago article made a rather salient point. maybe people aren’t having children because they don’t want as many of them. Kids after all come at a high opportunity cost beyond the material cost . Lets talk material for example a months supply of diapers for a baby is around 50 bucks and yes you an go cheaper with cloth there is a time and nuisance cost… Read more »

pecancorner
Guest
pecancorner

Yes to Rod, Hoyos, and Posper’s most recent. … The culture began dying in the 1970s because its enemies targeted the young – who were the vast Baby Boomer generation. It was this generation that abandoned many things for a long time, but many have since “come home”, ” 50 million immigrants tends to run up housing prices too. “. Clinton’s “Taxpayer Relief Act” holds primary blame for turning American residential housing into a tax free investment for the whole world. American families who just want a place to live have to compete with wealthy investors from China, Mexico, the… Read more »

Member

It’s not my job to explain the inconsistent parts of the bible or the hypocrisy of many adherents. If you are an adult work it out privately either way, don’t get in my face like Goad did with Grace. It’s become an internet act with him and he will unburden himself of his resentment to any who will listen. A wasted life from a man who has some gifts. Resentment is a soul destroyer. The Alt-right has quite a few that are suggesting that Christianity is good for structuring society even if it isn’t true. Why would I want that?… Read more »

Member

The West cannot be restored without Christianity, because the West has always been essentially Christian. Without it, you could create something new that wasn’t really the West, just as the Byzantine and medieval Christians created something new that wasn’t really the Ancient pagan civilization.

If that suits you, fine – but it won’t be the West.

De Beers Diamonds
Guest
De Beers Diamonds

The West lost much of its old Roman heartlands to Islam, North Africa was St. Augustine’s homeland. Egypt, the Levant, Asia Minor are no longer part of the civilization. Only Spain was taken back with great cost. Now a Muslim satrap sits in the Anglo capital, and a Muslim King is not out of the question by 2100.

A.B. Prosper
Guest
A.B. Prosper

That’s fine with me. The West started to die with the enlightenment and democracy anyway and counting a religious revival that may not happen or help to save it seems like folly to me. What is killing it off faster is urbanization ,mobility and information combined with a heretical elite . Yes heretical “Cathedralism” is Judeo Chrtianism with an Enlightenment filter The later we can deal with but baring a catastrophe we aren’t going back to a less connected world. The core technology for toxic level so connection is as simple as a radio and a train And again when… Read more »

Member

National Socialism failed disastrously and left the country it was supposed to save a smoking ruin. If that’s your “better plan”, then we should all just ignore you (and the rest of the Nazi LARPer wackjobs out there).

De Beers Diamonds
Guest
De Beers Diamonds

The EU has some undemocratic features, it wouldn’t be so bad if our people were in control of it. The energy has gone out of the eurosceptics, the botched job in the Brexit negotiations has increased sympathy for the EU.

A.B. Prosper
Guest
A.B. Prosper

if true this his was probably the plan that May’s handlers had. Sabotage and subterfuge is the centralizers way That aside, things like the EU are exactly what is not needed. These organizations allow the political class to run the lives of people who aren’t there own and to dodge responsibility We need the exact opposite. local governance, decentralization and as much of a requirement for each political party to be fully responsible for their choices as can be managed This dodging of responsibilities whether by EU or QUANGO or some agency is exactly what has lead to the mess.… Read more »

A.B. Prosper
Guest
A.B. Prosper

I’m not a Nazi lower but it was a combination of hubris, genocide, totalitarianism and expansionism that weakened Germany enough that the other Socialist powers could finish it off The USA and allies , Socially Democratic and the USSR , Communist did the job far more than economic policy This is what happens when you allow a childless nutter in charge Quoting Kaiser Wilhelm here “There is a man alone, without family, without children, without God….He builds legions but he doesn’t build a nation. A nation is created by families, a religion, tradition: it is made up out of the… Read more »

Zorost
Guest
Zorost

Nazi Germany was an economic miracle. It was left a smoking ruin because international ZOG declared war on it, leading to the 3 largest superpowers all ganging up on 1 small nation. There are no other superpowers to gang up on us if that is the direction we go.

saasarge
Guest
saasarge

I was wondering how long it would take for you and your ilk to show up.
It’s ALL BECAUSE OF THE……JOOOOOOOS!!!
Of course, silly me….why didn’t I think of that?

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

NatSoc, like Scandinavian socialism, worked quite well until they were attacked by a tribal religion.

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

What I saw living in Europe thirty years ago was a society that had no hope for the future, merely the hope for a roof over their heads and food on the table, provided by some sort of public-private arrangement that didn’t work very well. I think that is what dropped the birth rate so much. In Africa, it is the same deal, but the hope lies in migration and capturing some of the bounty that lies over the horizon, so the birth rate remains very high. The West doesn’t have that option any more. The crushing of Christianity in… Read more »

A.B. Prosper
Guest
A.B. Prosper

With the absolute carnage of WW1 and WW2 , probably most of the population had some PTSD. Raise a couple of generations with that than throw in the destruction of stability and tradition and you have the recipe for a broken people. at that point just being comfortable is about all anyone can hope for/ Even so they Europeans have more chance of making it than the US does. Anti Immigrant parties are taking power and this at a much smaller level of immigration The US people allowed the US to be taken over mostly by Latin America with help… Read more »

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

“The crushing of Christianity in Western Europe accelerated the trend, as it stripped away social ties and a long term, multigenerational outlook.”

Best answer yet, most pertinent.
Plus, angry atheists are such dreadful evangelists.

christopher swift
Guest
christopher swift

“The existence of God, gods or some supernatural force that animates the universe is unknowable.”

Since coming to that conclusion, I have put that idea forward to atheists and religious people. Neither side likes it, but the atheists are usually the angriest. Religious people, who i generally respect, engage in a more thoughtful way.

Jaqship
Guest
Jaqship

Perhaps the atheists you’ve talked to are the nuttiest of the bunch. The ones I know would find your view completely reasonable. Their fire is directed at the true blue believers who insist that they DO know, usually in crucial detail, what this force is, and what this force DEMANDS of us.

Member

Not to disagree at all, but I do have a quibble. I’ve never had an atheist inform me of their “faith” early in our acquaintance but I have had Christians inform me as almost our first interaction when it was totally irrelevant to our conversation. For example, my dentist and a new boss back in the day.

I’m the complete agnostic, by the way.

Severian
Guest

I’ve had both happen with some regularity (growing up in the South, then spending lots of time in academia). Neither is much fun, and both are almost always grotesque hypocrites. For sheer brass-balledeness, though, atheists take the cake. Reason’s self-proclaimed BFFs demand, as proof of God’s existence, something that is so overwhelming that it would result in immediate conversion… AND that this proof be recorded by an atheist.

Al from da Nort
Guest
Al from da Nort

Sev; Agreed: Those demanding overwhelming evidence of God’s existence are just foolishly showing off. If the evidence is overwhelming then there is no commendation due anyone who accepts it. That is, their free will has been nullified. The answer I’ve come to after considerable thought and study is: If God is who He says He is and He has given man free will as He says He has, and He intends to do what He says He will do about ending the world in judgement, then He will give *enough* revelation to every human so that they can be justly… Read more »

JEB
Guest
JEB

Do people in Heaven have free will? Just asking…

If they do, then free will is not incompatible with overwhelming evidence of the existence of God. If they do not, then having one’s free will “nullified” is not such a terrible thing. After all, they are in Heaven!

🙂

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

Ha! Read a wonderful story where the angel at the table quite cleverly got around that ‘no free will’ bit (after apologising- “Sorry. No free will.” He had to answer in a certain way.)

Jaqship
Guest
Jaqship

OK, Sev, both sides can be assholes, but I’ve no problem with Reason types laying out their “demand”, as long as they’re as POLITE about it as are their Believer opponents. I’ll grant that the Academic types can often be real assholes, but they’re often that way on everything else anyway, so their snooty manners often hurt their darling causes. The Believers often have better ideas on the stuff most important to us here, so, when they get pushy on religion, it hurts our cause, since this conduct drives away (from our cause) those people who’d probably be open to… Read more »

james wilson
Guest
james wilson

To be an agnostic means not to be complete. Which is fine.

Pimpkin's Nephew
Guest
Pimpkin's Nephew

“I’m the complete agnostic, by the way.”

You’ve just illustrated Z-man’s point, and contradicted your own, all in thirty seconds of anecdotal ‘rebuttal’ from incidents ‘back in the day’.

Member

My mom cries as she yells in tongues on her knees looking up at the ceiling with arms raised. When I was kid I heard one of the house painters run up the stairs and knock on her bedroom door asking if everything was alright.

LineInTheSand
Guest
LineInTheSand

Sympathy for Frip

It’s no wonder he’s a metalhead.

Din C. Nuffin
Guest
Din C. Nuffin

Christianity is a good idea. It should be tried sometime.

imnobody00
Guest
imnobody00

This is a famous quip by Gandhi, but it is false. Christianity has been tried. The ones who tried with more success are called “saints” (at least in the Catholic and Orthodox traditions).

Of course, Christianity is based on the fact that everybody is a sinner (this is why we need Christ to be our Saviour, instead of saving ourselves). As a result, as long as you do your best, you are doing well and being a Christian, even if your stumble. Christianity does not demand perfection or completely fulfilling the rules.

Al from da Nort
Guest
Al from da Nort

I’m;
Agreed: Best answer I’ve heard lately to the canard, “I couldn’t join a church. They’re all full of hypocrites .” is, “Well, there’s always room for a few more, so come on over.”.

Hoyos
Guest
Hoyos

Ha! I like that one, I do. It’s like complaining that a hospital is full of sick people.

Pimpkin's Nephew
Guest
Pimpkin's Nephew

This sort of vacuous quip illustrates what we’re up against as we watch our civilization slide into oblivion. It also shows why you can’t discuss religion with strangers. Imagine a Pascal or Bonhoeffer trying to discuss Christian doctrine with anyone here. They’d hardly be over-matched – they’d just abandon the effort, the way earnest young math majors are known to go Africa to teach algebra and geometry in remote villages, only to discover that the locals don’t understand what a number is, beyond the ‘number’ of chickens available for dinner. You may as well expect success from a trained cellist… Read more »

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

Clever semantic is a pissing contest.
Assumptions explain nothing.

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

Huh. I’ve been thinking about the nature of the gods and the role of the embodied lately. This is why I must disagree that these things are unknowable. Therein lies the hope. True answers, things that can be measured and somewhat verified, should be a bridge between the two positions. This also brings us knowledge of semantic constructs- why do we speak, why do we feel, why do we think, why do we sense. Why are we here? Why do we suffer? Both sides can receive answers that satisfy. Let us end this wasteful war between us. It must be,… Read more »

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

Simply put, synthesis of faith and observation is more possible than our frustrated selves realize.

Throwing the baby out with the bathwater doesn’t work. Neither does trying to harness the power of what we sense without a clear model of the mechanisms.

Hold fast! Keep hope! We are meant to do this, to know. To Know, and to use this for the highest Good.

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

I either read the quote somewhere earlier in the discussion (and I can’t find it now to give credit to the author), or perhaps I deduced it from the conversation, and, Alzaebo, your comments here touch on it. Science, experience, and the elements of shared culture that are handed down to us teach us the “what” and the “how”. They do a poor job of telling us the “why”. Some will pretend the “why” is somehow self-evident or irrelevant. Religion, and specifically Christianity, attempt to construct a “why”, that just so happens to also be a good guide as to… Read more »

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

Very kind, thanks, true class always shows.

I’m hopeful because the “why”- the Purpose- is simple to see with an accurate mechanical model.

Religion itself is a mechanism, not something to be proven or disproven as “all true or all false”.

Atheists and believers are stuck on emotional posturing, using absurdities to “prove” each other wrong. Neither condescends to ask the most basic questions (science- what, how, why).

Frustrating. It’s like listening to second-graders argue about comic books.
I, a low-born dunce, find the ‘great minds’ laughable. We can and must do better than squabbling. A house divided…

JEB
Guest
JEB

I think this would have to qualify as a childish rant about atheism. Aren’t you at least interested in whether the factual claims of religion (religion in general, or particular religions) are in fact true? That would seem to be a matter of some importance! I was raised a Catholic, but I abandoned my belief in my teens, because I didn’t want to believe, and because once I started looking it was easy to see that there was no good evidence supporting the things I had been taught to believe. For a while I was sort of a “militant” atheist,… Read more »

dad29
Guest

“Sell all you own….(etc.)” was a counsel of Christ to the young man who sought perfection. There is no REQUIREMENT to do so; lots of people earn Heaven while owning stuff. The question to ask is not “whether or not to own stuff,” but rather, “how much stuff do I really need?” (by all means, include your family here!!) 50,000 square-foot house for 2 geezers? Well, yes, if their 8 children and 20 g-children also live there. While we’re at it, why do you hint that ‘God’ will turn the world into a pile of crap b/c sub-Saharans will over-run… Read more »

Member

Christians don’t teach all outcomes are positive because god made them that way. By that logic nothing matters and there is no purpose to ever act. It seems to me if atheism is true than the timeline of things you should care about is very short, not the other way.

Member

>”I was raised a Catholic, but I abandoned my belief in my teens, because I didn’t want to believe”

Yeah I think I see the issue right there. People always find good reasons to believe what they want to believe and to not believe what they don’t want to believe.

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

And it is well understood that teenagers are the world’s experts on absolutely everything.

Severian
Guest

Yep. Read Julian the Apostate’s _Against the Galileans_, for pete’s sake. He made all the juvenile “Christians are teh suxxor” arguments the neckbearded fedora crowd thinks are so clever 1700 years ago (plus some interesting ones).

Mississippi Rebel
Guest
Mississippi Rebel

While I’m an atheist, I really don’t bring it up. I’ve been berated by the religious all my life for my lack of belief in their god. I’ve patiently explained over and over to people that I’m fine with whatever brings them comfort, just don’t force it on me. Usually I’m next confronted with “You don’t think their is something greater than you?” My answer is always the same, I’m sure there are many things greater, I just don’t worship them, nor force others too. It’s like talking to a wall usually.

Member

Obviously you are talking to my relatives.

LineInTheSand
Guest
LineInTheSand

Goad says he doesn’t believe in right and wrong but only in true and false. He is blind to the need for ethical first principles.

Like Goad, one of my best friends is an atheist who believes that if we outgrow our need for a father in the sky then most of our problems will solve themselves because science supplies an ethical system. I’ve tried to demonstrate to him that science only answers question about “is” and not “ought.”

I submit that our unquestioned first principle ought to be the flourishing of the white race.

Senator Brundlefly
Guest
Senator Brundlefly

So I’ll say at the forefront that I think religion is a good thing and a very natural thing. All you say about religion as a convenient container for belief I completely agree with you on. As well as the fact that the question of whether God exists or not is ultimately unknowable. If there is no God there would be great need to invent him. That’s why people like Dawkins and other “New Atheists” annoy the shit out of me. That all said, I don’t think athiesm is at it’s face childish. Why God allows bad things to happen… Read more »

james wilson
Guest
james wilson

I had more fun reading this essay than watching the Yankees walk off the field after losing game five at Fenway in 2004.

james wilson
Guest
james wilson

No few of the great men of the 18th and 19th century were uncertain of the exact nature of God, but they were not uncertain in what happens under disbelief. Tocqueville may as well have been speaking for Burke and many others. “Equality of conditions persuades men to conceive an instinctive disbelief in the supernatural and a very lofty, often very exaggerated, conception of human reason. Human opinions form only a sort of intellectual dust which swirls in every direction, unable to settle or find stability. When authority in religious matters no longer exists any more than in political matters,… Read more »

pyrrhus
Guest
pyrrhus

“Tell me how a loving God would let bad things happen to good people” is a typical atheist rant…..
Because Earth was not intended to be a petting zoo. It was intended to be a test…Why did you ever think otherwise?

Senator Brundlefly
Guest
Senator Brundlefly

Ah yes, a test. This is why any good parent purposefully exposes their children to horrible conditions. For if they were to do all in their power to give their child the best life possible, how would they know the kid’s love is sincere? What fun is it to make sentient beings and give them good lives when you can purposefully make flawed ones you know will go astray and then torment them in enternity for being exactly as you designed them?

JEB
Guest
JEB

This!

dad29
Guest

“…make flawed ones…” Nope. Adam and Eve were NOT flawed–until they chose to become so. And as you recall, that choice was ‘to become like unto God.’

“…know will go astray,..,” Yes, many choose to go astray. Christ also provided forgiveness–if one asks for it. Oh, yes, there will be penance, just as when you wrecked Dad’s car.

Kinda looks like common sense to me.

Senator Brundlefly
Guest
Senator Brundlefly

If the purpose of man is to follow God’s Word and from the very outset Adam chose not to, would that not be flawed? Given that God is omnipotent and knows the fate of every being before it is even put on earth, when He creates the sinner is He not purposefully creating something flawed? Where is our choice and free will if our fates are already known? Isn’t it but an illusion? Wouldn’t it be better for God not to make flawed people given that he knows from the outset that if he makes such a soul it will… Read more »

dad29
Guest

God (and the parents, still male/female!!) creates human beings with Free Will. What God knows does not affect what you–or anyone else–does with that Free Will.

Your logic is flawed, not God’s design, friend….

Senator Brundlefly
Guest
Senator Brundlefly

Let me put it this way, if God is real and God is omnipotent, God knew what the 9/11 hijackers would do when he chose to make them and put them on the earth. From the point of view of men who cannot see the future the hijackers had “free will”. But from the point of view of a being who knows their fates, they do not. I bring up the free will question not because I don’t think people are culpable for their actions within society. I bring it up because the culpability of a being for their actions… Read more »

Bunny
Guest
Bunny

God is not subject to any law. That’s why He’s God and we’re not. “First, you cannot properly understand the problem of evil without understanding the nature of God’s causal relationship to the world. Second, you cannot properly understand the problem of evil if you conceive of God in anthropomorphic terms—as something like a human agent, only bigger and stronger. If the world is like a story, God is not a character in the story alongside other characters; he is like the author of the story. And just as it makes no sense to think of an author as being… Read more »

Senator Brundlefly
Guest
Senator Brundlefly

Thanks for the well thought out and eloquent response (and even if they aren’t your words, you took the time to find them). Of course I cannot fault an author for killing a character in a story. The characters are not real. But I and you and other people are. If God is simply the unknowable, then why does he demand love? And not just love, love beyond all other things we love. Love as I understand it is rooted in understanding. A deep and profound joy derived from something’s very nature and knowing that nature. And yet God endows… Read more »

Bunny
Guest
Bunny

If I were an evangelist, I’d say that’s why He sent His son to us.

Senator Brundlefly
Guest
Senator Brundlefly

And Christ does at least give an anthropomorphic focal point to latch on to. But the unlovable void is more than God not being a man. It’s in being incomprehensible to the human mind.

Member

So why did God put the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden? He could have put it somewhere else. The idea is that he purposefully put temptation in the path of innocents, then decided to torture them eternally because they succumbed. What a sick God. And no…I am not an atheist.

Bunny
Guest
Bunny

See Liebnitz, best of all possible worlds.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/best-of-all-possible-worlds

Bunny
Guest
Bunny

Misspelling Leibniz has invalidated my argument.

Member

Leibnitz might have reconsidered his thesis had he known what we know about the universe today.

Member

It was the tree of knowledge (of good and evil).
He did so as to give us free will. If temptation was not present then what is will?

Member

Even sicker.

Member

Parents routinely let their kids struggle and make them do things they don’t enjoy. I’m not sure whether parents designed their kids to be the way they are.

Member

What amazes me are the types of atheists who think that Christianity has been around for 2000 years and in all that time nobody associated with it ever thought of that question.

JEB
Guest
JEB

Plenty of Christians have thought of the question — they’ve just never come up with a convincing (or even plausible) answer.

Severian
Guest

Really? Which ones have you read, and why do you find them inadequate? There are whole libraries’ worth of books on the problem of theodicy. *None* of them strikes you as plausible?

JEB
Guest
JEB

Well gee, no, I haven’t actually read whole libraries of books on the subject. But this question has been coming up my entire life, and I’ve always assumed that the (unconvincing) answers I kept hearing were the best answers you guys had available. Was I wrong to assume this? Are you telling me that hidden within those libraries are answers that are better than the ones that have been presented to the public, and that it’s my responsibility to go hunting for those answers? Golly, why didn’t you just give us the good answers to begin with? You know, Muslims… Read more »

Severian
Guest

So: what *are* these (unconvincing) answers you keep hearing, and what’s so unsatisfactory about them? Use as many words as you need to dodge a straightforward question. 🙂

Senator Brundlefly
Guest
Senator Brundlefly

Not sure about him but here’s mine: Q: Why did God create evil? A: Because good cannot exist without evil. Life would be hollow without strife. My problem with A: An all powerful being could do anything, including making good without evil. Life would be hollow without strife because that is precisely how God designed things. Had God wanted to make creatures content without strife and only put the people on earth that would freely choose his path, he could have. He didn’t. Q: How can we have free will and God know our fates? A: We do have free… Read more »

Member

Why is a God so far above us constantly “angry” and hell bent on vengeance? The Creator of the Universe is so pissed off about Adam and Eve that he unloads on the rest of humanity for the duration of time???? Does this sound like a God…or more like an earthly Jew? It seems to me that someone has been sold a bill of goods.

Bunny
Guest
Bunny

Your answers are not what the Church teaches. For example, the Church teaches evil is the privation of good, not something created but an absence. Omniscience is not incompatible with free will. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_free_will Why do you think love is based on understanding? I love my husband and children, but I do not understand even them perfectly.

dad29
Guest

God did NOT “create evil.” Satan, too, had free will–and wanted to become ‘like God,’ which by no co-incidence is what he used to tempt Adam and Eve.

Evil is the absence of good; free will gives us humans the option to choose “absence of good.” But that is NOT–logically–identical to “God creates evil.”

JEB
Guest
JEB

Severian — Well I seem to have won the arguments about libraries — you have at least backed off from your unreasonable demand that I read “whole libraries” of books on theodicy before I can have an opinion. But now you are demanding that I start a book of my own on the subject, here in the comments section, in order to prove to your satisfaction that yes, I have indeed been exposed to the standard arguments that Christians always use to defend the behavior of their God. Sorry, under other circumstances I might have a go at it, but… Read more »

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

“Because Earth was not intended to be a petting zoo. It was intended to be a test…”. If Earth was a petting zoo, we could get rid of most storytelling and literature, starting with Homer. We could get rid of personal striving and accomplishment. Get rid of all sports, because they have winners and losers. Eliminate all tests, and give credit for showing up and participation. Give freely to those who need or want something, so life is not a “test”. Elections have winners and losers too, as do battles and wars. Borders separate winners from losers. As does history,… Read more »

MtnExile
Guest
MtnExile

Wherever what you say conflicts with a universally-accepted teaching of the Church, I am compelled to accept the Church’s teaching. However, having said that, you have an uncommonly high number of brilliant insights; and the comparison of religion to gasoline, and the vast amounts of energy wasted trying to come up with a substitute civilizational fuel, is one of them.

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

A very thought provoking element of the post, about energy as well as about religion. I have long held the view that our culture broadly underestimates the importance and value of a gallon of gasoline.

Dark Reformation
Guest

Atheists may be “militant” because of the “militancy” of certain religious people and because some religious people get in their faces and vice versa. Thus, we have a spiral of mutual verbal aggression. “Atheism is a good example of a negative identity. If Christianity did not exists. atheists would have to invent it so they could rail against it. ” Yes just means without belief in God or gods. It is not supposed to be anything more than that. It is exactly the same as someone who does not believe in magic, faeries and voodoo. Now, people like Dawkins are… Read more »

nearhorburian
Guest
nearhorburian

I’ve never understood why pig people should worship gods invented by goat people.

Hoyos
Guest
Hoyos

Well if the goat peoples God is real and the pig peoples gods aren’t, that seems like a good reason.

A.B. Prosper
Guest
A.B. Prosper

Sure but both Gods could be real too in which case you back the stronger horse or more accurately do as you are told or be killed and or ostracized as sometimes happens. Or an entirely different one could real or one that does not care or the afterlife may be a product of physics and complexity or a hundred other things. There is sketchy evidence for reincarnation and Gods plural but its not proof and this doesn’t prove Gods who may exists aren’t Star Trek style Higher Beings . No one knows and no can know save in their… Read more »

Member

Imagine two rivals societies: One believes in a diety, one does not. One is willing to die to expand, one is not. One has a moral imperative to have babies, the other thinks merely of whether having children would be enjoyable or not.

Which of the two will take territory and which will surrender it?

Senator Brundlefly
Guest
Senator Brundlefly

I think society needs religion but to play Devil’s advocate: Imagine two societies. One believes in every human life as an equal and blessed shard of the Divine. The other that man is a biological entity prone to the same imperatives to reproduce and gain territory as every other animal and that each human society is a product of it’s own unique evolutionary history. Which will address the population crisis in Africa and the flooding of the West with Third World migrants?

Corn
Guest
Corn

Scotty, About a moral imperative to have babies: there is a quote of Oswald Spengler’s I enjoy. “When the ordinary thought of a cultivated people begins to regard having childen as a question of ‘pros and cons’ the great turning point has come. For nature knows nothing of ‘pro and con’.” I was raised Catholic. I’m now an atheist. I think science has opened the bottle of skepticism for good. After reading of the big bang and evolution I just can’t believe in the stories of the sky god or the bible. Yet I want my country and civilization to… Read more »

A.B. Prosper
Guest
A.B. Prosper

Its depends on the leaders and the technology I’ll note that many of the religious states are starting to not value children nearly as much and also realizing they are way over carrying capacity anyway .Iran is already there and its a literal theocracy Modernity is actually doing pretty well at declining the human growth rate everywhere Also with ruthless leaders who place no value on human life but on preserving society or animal life or whatever and have good tech, it doesn’t really matter Send in the gas drones and flesh eating robots, the nukes and tailored germs and… Read more »

Din C. Nuffin
Guest
Din C. Nuffin

“Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.”
From “The Age of Reason” by Thomas Paine, published in 1794.

Member

Are you sure that’s Thomas Paine or did you paste it from some angry 8th grader’s Facebook page?

Member

Gotta love Goad, but yeah, his views and conversations seem bound by an overwhelming need to impress himself with his self. He’s sort of a macho version of Milo that way. Milo needs to remind you who he’s sucking. Goad needs to remind you he’s an ex-con. Though Milo actually knows stuff and can take interviews to interesting places, they both stunt convo by always bringing subject back to themselves.

Member

Yeah, that’s the central problem the Dissident Right has. It doesn’t believe any more than the globohomos do, really. But the West is Europe, and Europe is the Church and eliminating belief has cut the tendons of the West and left it crippled.

People who complain about the loss of belief sometimes act like we could choose to believe again. Not sure that’s true, but if it’s not, then the idea of the West simply cannot be recovered.

Apex Predator
Guest
Apex Predator

Let me join the party as the only person yet to identify as a Deist. (not a theist, big difference). IMHO, Atheists and Theists are effectively two sides of the same coin. Atheism is religion by any other name and a rather radical one at that. A large number of its adherents are militant fanatics much as you’d see with an ISIS or Fundy Xtian Sect. Both are absolutely certain beyond the shadow of a doubt that God does not exist or does exist based, more or less, on faith. That is religion. The deist is the middle road above… Read more »

Primi Pilus
Guest
Primi Pilus

I think that this is what (the oft maligned) Jordan Petersen is getting at in his discussions of religion in general and The Bible in particular — a repository of knowledge and handbook on how to live a life in our culture. Listening to him, I don’t get the sense that he’s devout, or even a traditional believer. But he recognizes the power and importance of Christianity, its traditions, conceptual schemes and guidance, to our cultural functioning and survival.

Member

Been an atheist most of my life. I used to be defensive about it when the Christians had the upper hand and tried to make you feel like a freak for being athiest. Now that I see Belief could be helpful…even essential, to the Dissident Right’s cause…for the resurrection of the West, I’m willing to shut up about it. Though I could never be a believer again. I should be offended by Z’s post. But he’s a big picture guy, and he frames things for The Cause. I’m ok with that. We all should be. Like when we were kids… Read more »

james wilson
Guest
james wilson

The greater number of atheist who are on my side in the culture wars have no respect for the culture of atheists. It’s a bit like the great looking Finnish chick with a voice like bearing failure who appears with RamzPaul. She’s listened to many arguments making the case that good women resupply a good democratic culture but women voting destroys it. She bought that. Things are what they are. You don’t have to be it to see it. Although, the Christians say some things must be believed to be seen.

miforest
Guest
miforest

great article Z , but I would give Goad a pass. he has history . he is not rational , and I might not be either in the same circumstance .
http://www.jimgoad.net/index.shtml?buckygoad

Walt
Guest
Walt

Something people tend to forget is the positive benefits to the community the church has brought. The Christian church and its faith have been a unifying and galvanising force in much of the West. A commitment to kindness, charity and family can’t be a bad thing. The church has also educated millions of children, cared for the sick and fed the hungry. Look at the temples of the LDS church around the world, incredibly beautiful structures and there aren’t too many homeless Mormons sleeping in the gutter. I’m not a church goer myself because I never took to the spiritual… Read more »

Member

“Atheists” are the perfect foil for Churchians, as the very term defines them as something they are not (believers in a God), and in turn reifies to some extent the beliefs of the adherents of religions. Churchians, which are a form of self-defined “Christians” given to identification with a set of strictures and dogma, have been the cannon fodder of the ruling cabals for centuries. Did Hitler’s Churchians go to hell while Roosevelt’s and Stalin’s danced in “heaven?” How about the U.S. Civil War? Did singing “Glory Hallelujah” give the North a righteous, God-is-with-us, victory over the equally Churchian South?… Read more »

Corn
Guest
Corn

Kind of late to the party with this but I’m a fan of alternate history, a subgenre of scifi asking “what if history had taken a different direction?”

Back in the late 90s John Reilly wrote this essay, If Jesus Had Never Been Born. I think it does a good job detailing how much the West owes to Christianity.

http://www.changingthetimes.net/samples/prechrist/jesus.htm

CAPT S
Guest
CAPT S

This is a long discussion to not have used the word “epistemology.” How do we know what we know? I’m a Christian who works to separate justified belief from untenable opinion, but sadly, very few Christians bother with the arduous work of thoughtful apologetics. “Just believe!” they say. Herein lies the weakness of American Christianity. The Church has done a horrible job over the last 200 years in defending (and expounding upon) the knowledge of God. “My people perish for lack of knowledge.” This is why I hold the Church responsible for our deteriorating culture; now everyone is their own… Read more »

Member

“The Church has done a horrible job over the last 200 years…” Whenever someone says something like that, on any topic, you can be pretty sure that the product or idea was never that great to begin with. “If only we had better salesmen!”

Bunny
Guest
Bunny

That’s funny, Frip. But it’s pretty obvious that some people who have problems accepting Christianity do not have a correct understanding of its tenets. Their knowledge is just assumed. You have to wonder how much of that is swimming in misconceptions and how much is willful ignorance.

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

Apologies for a weak plea

What got me interested in the role of emotion in speech was observing my own gut reactions to religious statements, mirrored by the same reactions in others.

Some statements are neutral:
“Connect the red wire to post A”
Others elicit an immediate response in all caps!

wholy1
Guest
wholy1

There are “churchies” in contrast to those that attempt to pursue the Truth and “Blessings from the Beginning” so eloquently REVEALED and . . . RE-established by JC, by simply availing Oneself to the needs of those other REPENTANTS in GREATER “need” than One’s existing/current physical situation. The “Remnants” are gathering as the “Quickening” accelerates in this relative time construct. Truly an exciting time to [still] be “alive”, but cognizant of being “a little closer to Home” each day when considering the unbelievable calamity coming – especially to the UNproductive/parasitic “coasters/citYzens,urbies”, subsidized/trusters/entitleds, financial investors/traders, SJWs/academic cry-bullies, gov-agent regulators/SELECTIVE enforcement thugs.

Quartermaster
Guest
Quartermaster

“This is where a “bible believing Christian” tells me I’m wrong. They know God exists because of something they read somewhere in their bible.” Not true. Some may tell you are wrong for the reason you make up, but that’s simply clownish. There is much that tells us there is a God, so much so that David said “The fool has said in his heart, there is no God.” What we see around us did not happen through some random accident of nothing producing everything. Anyone who seriously claims there is no God is either a huckster or insane. The… Read more »

Hudson H Luce
Guest
Hudson H Luce

“Tell me how a loving God would let bad things happen to good people” – that’s easy. You don’t know how your ethical principles will stand up unless they are tested by adversity. I’m assuming, of course, that what we mean by “good people” are people who live by a code of ethics which makes life in community with others at least possible, and at best a source of joy. If there were no God, ethics would consist of what benefits only the individual and includes no hardship – in other words, “if it serves my purposes and pleases me,… Read more »

Hudson H Luce
Guest
Hudson H Luce

“The existence of God, gods or some supernatural force that animates the universe is unknowable.” True by definition, since we cannot know something which we cannot define or place limits on. However, we can infer the existence of a higher source of order from the oft-observed fact that systems tend to go to a state of disorder over time unless some sort of intelligent ordering force is applied. In other words, entropy in a closed system can never decrease. If you assume no higher source of order from outside the system – which means that the universe is not a… Read more »

Phil
Guest
Phil

‘God’ is the glue the binds the accumulated knowledge together into something resembling a social system. It’s the invisible authority that provides the ‘because’ to the ‘why’. It’s a convenient shortcut, which seems to work with most average people, that prevents endless loops of ‘why’ questioning of the accumulated knowledge and the system that it has created. Get rid of the glue and sure enough the system slowly begins to fall apart. People then slowly begin to question ‘why’ and because no-one can any longer give them a legit answer they begin to do whatever they want. That being said… Read more »

CharlieBaud
Guest
CharlieBaud

Actually, until it became unfashionable among the pluralistic set, the majority Christian view was that God is knowable through revelation, including miracles, many of which we have considerable material evidence for.

https://zenit.org/articles/physician-tells-of-eucharistic-miracle-of-lanciano/
http://www.therecord.com.au/perspectives/columnists/eucharistic-miracles-proof-of-christs-real-presence/

And that’s not even getting into the Lourdes Medical Bureau.