If you were to compile a list of the most influential people in history, you would probably start with the most influential ideas. The people responsible for inventing those ideas or popularizing them would be on the list of influential people. Presumably, without those people, the ideas would not have had the same level of impact. Marx would be on the list because he came up with Marxism. Without Marx, it is hard to imagine that branch of socialism developing as it has over 150 years.
Christian Zionism is an idea that does not get much attention, despite the fact it has cast a long shadow over Western history. It is fair to say that Zionism would not exist if not for the Christian Zionists. As much as people like to talk about the influence of Jews and Judaism on the West, it was Christians and a peculiar strain of Christianity that made Zionism possible. In fact, the modern state of Israel probably owes its existence to the hard work of Christian Zionist.
Christian Zionism has its roots in the Protestant Reformation. The revolts against the Church gave rise to a wholesale reassessment of Christian dogma. The distribution of the Bible in vernacular languages allowed radical Protestants to interpret the scriptures in ways contrary medieval Catholic tradition. Christian Zionism can be viewed as the result of the democratization of Christianity. When every man could read the Bible, ever man’s interpretation of Scripture was suddenly equal.
Restorationism was the Protestant idea that the Jews would eventually return to Israel as part of the flow of history. Here you see the early roots of this idea that history flows in one direction toward a predictable end. With regards to the Jews, their return to Israel was part of the end times. It did not take long before this evolved into a belief that helping the Jews return was an essential part of Christianity. Restoring Israel was the next logical step for this branch of Christianity.
Picking the first Christian Zionist or even the most influential one is difficult as the 19th century had many philosemitic Protestants. Of course, all of them were relying on Puritan interpretation of Scripture, so you can probably credit Oliver Cromwell with making it possible for Christian Zionism to flourish. The British empire then spread the idea around the world. Wherever English speaking people exist in large numbers, you have fanatical support for Israel to this day.
The guy who should probably get credit for the invention of Zionism is an Anglican clergyman named William Hechler. He was a rabid crusader against antisemitism and the sponsor of Theodor Herzl, the founder of modern Zionism. He called for the Jews to return to Palestine as a pre-condition for the return of Jesus, which made the unconditional support of Jews and Israel a core Christian belief. Overtime this has evolved into unquestioned devotion to Israel.
Theodor Herzl could also get credit for Christian Zionism. After all, it takes two to make a relationship and Herzl was the first Jewish Zionist. If not for large swaths of the Jewish diaspora embracing the ideas of the Christian Zionist, it is hard to imagine the movement lasting into the 20th century. Even today, secular Jews despise Evangelical Christians, in part, because of their support for Zionism. There are other reasons, but the unbridled support of Israel and the restoration is one element.
Even so, the creation of the Jewish state in the middle of the last century was the product of Christian Zionism. Its existence has nurtured and supported Christian Zionism, especially in America. In fact, much of the spiritual fervor that would flow into Christian identity politics is channeled into Zionism. In the cultural climate of the West, this is one of the few safe ways for white people to cheer for their own side. You can probably argue that Zionism relies on a form of white identity politics.
Christian Zionism and Zionism would not exist without the strange form of empire first invented by the British then perfected by Americans. The British were the first ocean empire. The Greeks dominated the Mediterranean, of course, but that is not the same as dominating oceans. At the minimum, the British Empire was the first modern ocean empire. Today, America controls the world because she controls the seas, which means she controls the flow of goods globally.
It is hard to argue against Zionism as the most influential idea of the 20th century and now the 21st century. The creation of Israel by the British in 1948 has focused the attention of the West on the Middle East ever since. The long Cold War was entangled with Zionism which gave birth to neoconservatism. The last thirty years has kept the American empire obsessed with the fate of Israel. It is not unreasonable to say that American foreign policy is controlled by the Israelis.
Step back and you can argue that Christian Zionism is the result of two main forces unleashed in the West. One is the democratization of Christianity. It is impossible to imagine Zionism flourishing within the Catholic Church. The other is egalitarianism, the very Protestant idea of equality. Without hierarchy, theology was turned over to the entrepreneur, always looking for a novel way to sell Scripture. That is how you get ideas like Restorationism or Mormonism.
Returning to where we started, if one was looking to compile a list of great historical figures, you would have to include William Hechler on that list. Even though his name is unfamiliar to the modern ear, his influence is immense. If not for his tireless promotion of Theodor Herzl, it is possible that Zionism was never born. Imagine what the world would be like if Israel remained a concept, rather than a physical reality. The last century would not be possible.
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Not widely known is that there was an American expedition to Jaffa in 1866 from Jonesport Maine of 157 pilgrims, of which one was my great grandmother. The expedition was led by George Adams, a cast off of the Mormon Church. It ended badly with most either dead or returned. This is covered well in the book “The Forerunners” by Reed M. Holmes.
I tell my Jewish friends I am descended from Zionists.
” Imagine what the world would be like if Israel remained a concept, rather than a physical reality. The last century would not be possible.”
If the world were different it would not be the same, but, unquantified, this is not a meaningful observation.
The mainspring of outside involvement in the Middle East has been, of course, oil, not Zionism.
Usually ZMan’s case of Jews-on-the-Brain is under better control.
I hear from time to time that many Orthodox Jews are anti-zionist. Not much about or from them in the news.
OT: why are houses in vermont so cheap? i.e. this: https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/501-Hazen-Notch-Rd_Lowell_VT_05847_M92485-40011
is there something i am missing? i just can’t get a firm read on VT, as to whether it is a decent place to live or not.
Classically Vermont had a exceptionally strong 2nd Amendment rights.
The problem with a state as small as Vermont is that the Frankfurt School can bus in 50,000 displaced New Orleans Louisiana chocolates here and 100,000 displaced Afghan goat-phuckers there, and then suddenly you don’t have 2nd Amendment rights anymoar.
That’s without even having to deploy the Boston Brahmin unitardian sh!tlibs and the juice p0rnographers like Bernie Sanders.
But in the small towns, and out in the woods, there are still a handful of decent people in heritage Vermont.
PS: Don’t know a thing about the property taxes, but I would imagine they’re horrible. [Although horrible property taxes are designed precisely so as to keep out the New Orleans Louisiana chocolates and the displaced Afghan goat-phuckers, so lotsa luck trying to decipher what passes for sh!tlib logic.]
From my few meagre sources I hear the place is filled with shitlibs and libertarians Karl…
yeah, another bro said the same thing; has an in-law there who confirms it. also, found out after my comment, that they are super jabby there (no surprise there).
Yeah, but shitLibs are moving too so that doesn’t explain low housing prices. I suspect Something wrong with this particular house -maybe a meth lab. Yeah, now that you mention it a dissident polling outfit would be extremely useful. I wonder how many Americans have our leanings? Race realist. Are Skeptical of 9-11 etc. that sorta thing. OT have you guys heard about the credible reports of national review taking money from google to suppress criticism That google is anti-conservative? Vox day has the links. I bet Derbyshire laughs his ass off.
Vermont has a high cost of living and high taxes for the service level it provides, as does Maine. My choice was central NH (Plymouth). You can find shooting most anyplace in ME, NH, VT outside the cities.
let’s drill down a little. as zman says, humans are believing machines, and the concept of religion is universal across all societies known. so it is instinctual. and has been present well before homo sapiens appeared. but the raw instinct is more primitive and basic than religion; i.e. religion is overlayed on top of the ancient impulse. this by the way, is how computer O/Ss are structured.
so in order to understand religion, figure out what the base instinct is (might need to enumerate all instincts); what was it used for by pre-human primates?
so in order to understand religion
Different neuropsychiatric brain structures approach “religion” in entirely different fashions.
Search for the 2013 article, “Red Brain, Blue Brain: Evaluative Processes Differ in Democrats and Republicans”.
That article builds upon a long history of American psychological scholarship, going back to the study of “Patient SM-046”, which was built upon the work of Edward T Hall [“Proxemics”], which in turn was built upon the work of John B Calhoun [“Death Squared”].
Just trying to figure out why legalists are attracted to legalism and why gnostics are attracted to gnosticism will consume all of your thought for the remainder of your life, and you likely won’t come to any firm conclusion whatsoever [unless maybe we get another insight as important “Red Brain, Blue Brain”].
Personally, I have long thought that, at least in Europe, the dividing line between Legalism & Gnosticism was strongly correlated with the dividing line between Alcoholism & Sobriety.
[Catholics drink alcohol like fish drink water – yikes!!!!!]
The “Isreal First” contingent in this country is as much a product of donor money, incessant propaganda (“Greatest Ally,”) as it is about Scriptural Interpretation. We have no mutual defense treaty with Israel. They won’t even extradite the worst US criminals who flee to Israel. Something’s wrong here. It’s a One-Way street, and it has the entire apparatus of both governments behind it. Why?
“The British were the first ocean empire. ”
Spain?
ask Lord Nelson about the Spanish fleet..
Or ask Sir Francis Drake.
“Without hierarchy, theology was turned over to the entrepreneur, always looking for a novel way to sell Scripture.”
This is the exact opposite of the Reformation. Luther’s 95 Theses were protesting the Vatican selling plenary indulgences.
We quit the hierarchy BECAUSE they had become entrepreneurs and salesmen.
This comment board just keeps getting more interesting. Nicely done Gunner.
Sometimes a good comment thread is like a good novel in that you have no idea what twists and turns it is going to take.
Line: I am as intellectually stimulated and challenged by the comments here as I am by the posts. It’s why I’ve stayed here.
For various reasons, this is one of the best dissident message boards going.
Sorta miss exile, lineman, and front range.
There was a fellow here that disappeared last spring, I think he went by “MikeC”, and seemed to be involved in the medical profession. He had some good Covid takes. I miss his input very much.
Same. But they’re off building communities.
A lot of action on telegram.
I read more on telegram now than I do anywhere else. Just about the only place to find raw, unfiltered video and info re Europe – anywhere outside the US really.
there indeed may have been abuses, but Luther abandoned all but 2 sacraments, and wanted suckers to believe they were still Christians.
Luther also took out six Old Testament books called the Apocrypha, which had been in the bible since the 4th century. I have had this argument with protestants who believe the Catholic Church added the six books in the 16th century, and thus Catholics have a weird bible as a result. When I explain that Luther took them out because he adopted the Hebrew Old Testament based on what the Jews use, versus the Greek translation that Christians had used for a millennium, they can’t believe it. The fact that they know this level of misinformed detail tells me they are taught this in church. I believe Luther also tried to take out the book of James because it contradicts his belief that good works are necessary for salvation. You can find support for either belief (good works versus faith alone), but that’s no excuse for throwing out books you disagree with.
The Council of Nicea would have a word with you 😀
Bible doesnt say faith alone. Luther’s addition.
The idea that Luther is a model for a dissident is a howler. For 15 centuries we meant to beleive taht the church was wrong about the sacraments, wrong about those 7 books, wrong about good works as a condition for salvation.
The man who upends, 15 centuries of tradition is a liberal. It was all a looting operation, as is the current attacks on Whites.
I would even be as bold to say that this attack on Whits is another “reformation”
We are suppose to believe that for 15 centuries, Christianity was really only needed baptism and marriage, and that the whole idea of christianity needed to be “re-imagined”
Typical of liberals is to point out a problem, sometimes not even legitimate, and make it the cause of the destruction of tradition. Isn’t that what happened during the summer of 2020? and you want to align yourselves with the spirit of Luther? My stars!
We are suppose to believe that for 15 centuries, Christianity really only needed baptism and marriage as sacraments, and that the whole idea of christianity needed to be “re-imagined”.
Typical of liberals is to point out a problem, sometimes not even legitimate, and make it the cause of the destruction of tradition. Isn’t that what happened during the summer of 2020? and you want to align yourselves with the spirit of Luther the great re-imagineer of tradition? My stars how blind.
Indeed. Luther went hammer and tongs against not only the indulgence-peddlers, but also the worthless bread-eating and ale-swilling priests who did nothing for their flock and the monastics who accumulated lands and riches while engaging in no labor.
Reading his introduction to the Small Catechism and listening to his Large Catechism is well worth the (lower-case “O”) orthodox Christian’s time, whatever their denomination. You may reject his reformed doctrine, but given the state of the church of Rome, some sort of luther was going to come to upset the tables and swing a knout at the dirty rats polluting Christ’s Church.
roo_ster: My older son was required to read Luther’s Catechism when he attended a Lutheran middle school (Missouri Synod), although we were not Lutheran. He learned a great deal there, and learned different things at our own conservative Episcopal Church’s confirmation class. On his own he went on to read classic Christian theologians, of various denominations, and debate and discuss with others online and IRL. He recently finished Catholic adult confirmation classes, and tries to attend churches offering the Latin mass. Not my belief, but I’m still grateful he’s kept his Christian faith. In the end, that’s what matters, not denominational pride or arguments or insults.
You are confusing a corruption with a feature. The Church had its corruption, which is true of all man made things. The egalitarian ethos within Protestantism is a lethal defect that cannot be corrected. You can clean up the corruption of hierarchy, but the only way to fix the entrepreneurial novelty that comes with solo scriptura is with the return of hierarchy.
Luther is one of history’s great monsters.
Hierarchy is fine, there’s nothing wrong with that, but it doesn’t stop invention. When the Pope invents climate change as a sin, there’s nothing more inventive than that. Self correction doesn’t happen without external forces pressuring that. One can say that the Catholic Church was far better off when it was competing with Protestantism than as a monopoly. Almost all the best Catholic artworks came from the counter-reformation era. I spent a week in Rome just admiring that. All of that comes from Luther and others attempting to fix something that was clearly broken. Northern Europe became the commercial center of Europe precisely because Protestants, with a better exposure to the bible, became more balanced, capable and honest people from exposure to the word. Geneva became the first city in Europe where people didn’t routinely piss in the streets, and that was because Protestants said, you know, we can do better than this. Of course all of this is beside the point because in 2021 both Catholicism and Protestantism are in free fall for much the same reasons.
Again, you are confusing corruption with an intrinsic quality. The leveling effect of making every man his own Pope must lead to a proliferation of increasingly bizarre formulations. It is why what passes from Christianity today is a million guys like David French professing his own boutique religion he claims is Christianity.
I’m not saying we need to return to Catholicism. I’m simply pointing out that the same cancer that destroyed Christianity is destroying the West and that radical Protestantism should get most of the blame.
I think people can confuse reform with modernization/novelty. Reform is asking “why is this here? Who put this here? And does it belong here?” It’s more of a removal of novelty than an addition. Modernization/novelty on the other hand, is “I read the bible and think this (insert heresy). I don’t take issue at all this Protestantism going wild with new preachers creating new franchises. This is why the abject corruption of Mainline protestantism is such a tragedy. It threw nearly all Protestants into the arms of these very people. Most Catholics I know just go straight to agnosticism and alcoholism, which is preferable to many Protestant churches.
Christian Zionism is a contradiction in terms that can only take root when the authority structure fails.
The foundation of a just society is an agreed upon set of fixed rules accessible by everyone so that your society does not devolve into whatever your cabal of credentialed experts says it is today. That is true whether you are talking law or religion.
From there, an authority structure is required to maintain and explain that fixed set of rules so that common man is able to live within them.
The common man extends into a reserve of professionals, hobbyist and occupational, so that it can detect and replace a corrupt authority structure which represents an existential threat to a society whereas the errors of the common man tend to be little more than a nuisance. See the difference between every university training your children into current year Marxism versus online libertarian hangouts.
The Protestant branch of Christianity is based on a negative identity formed in response to the corruption of the Catholic Church. The point of keeping the religious text in Latin is so that their cabal of credentialed experts can play mystery cult with the religion of the people. Same with the golden plates of the Mormons. Marxism changing the meaning of words to be whatever the cabal of credential experts finds convenient is next-level mystery cult.
You are correct that the Protestant branch has failed to create an appropriate authority structure in America, which lead to Americans being blessed with Mitt Romney, David French and Christian Zionism to name just a few things. The part you are missing is that, being a negative identity, the Protestant branch is and always was a temporary structure meant to produce a purified form of Christianity. The failures of authority in every branch of Christianity has extended this process to the mess we find today, and it is falling apart as a necessary final step given the continued absence of legitimate authority anywhere. If the people undergoing the process of change cling to the womb, then the womb must die.
I did figure out a basic model to define a Nation.
Biology, Environment and Religion merge into a mediating structure we call Culture, which becomes part of the Environment for purposes of evolution. Evolution itself is a necessary, mediating feedback mechanism to handle shifts in Environment and Religion in order to avoid extinction and pursue the purposes laid down by the Religion. Sometimes this process generates a massive change in the Environment that represents another feedback loop that can reinforce or retard the process. A Nation is created when this overall process produces a relatively unique and cohesive set of people, and so a Nation is a functional truth more than a material truth embedded in the biology.
Biology is the anchor of Religion because change needs to be metered out. Blank Slate is the alternative which would create argumentum ad absurdum-style outcomes as the normal course of things. If not for biology slowing things down in all the ways that it does, a group of people could go from civilized to genocidal maniacs to suicided nihilists in less than a generation. Blank Slate is partly a limitation of the synchronic experience of time and partly why liberals are certain the Jackboots could come at any moment. It will not fall to a direct attack, even by pointing out its absurdity, because it is a self-flattering article of faith and liberals are addicted to feeling good about themselves. The faith will only be discarded when the liberal cohort is drowned in a culture that holds Blank Slate ideology in utter and overt contempt.
Preposterous. Z, you need to study Luther and stay away from the dissident version of the Cliff notes on the Reformation.
All Luther did was challenge the corrupt behaviour of the hierarchs in a public format with the printing press keeping a level playing field. He challenged their behaviour and contrasted it with scripture to make his case. The powers that he could not defend themselves in any honest fashion. The difference between him doing that, and you doing the dissident thing on the internet – is virtually nil. He was no more a monster than you are.
If Luther hadn’t done it, somebody else would have.
Luther was E. Michael Jones with a wealthy sponsor.
Mathew 16:19. Who holds these keys today?
Does this not seem like highly important question?
Good grief, I am as dumb as a goldfish so I gotta ask: am I missing something here?
Because if the printing press that enabled wider access to the bible made every man his own pope… then doesn’t the internet make every man his own prime minister…? Or, in your case, POTUS?
I would be okay with removing most people from the internet. If gaining access required a 110 IQ, most of what plagues us today would be gone in hours.
This smells like the work of the NRx crowd. Careful, Z, or your cultural and intellectual superiors at the NRO will be publishing your work in sneer and scare quotes.
JFC. David Fwench? A Christian? That definitely smells like a dissident dropped that particular deuce.
Make a note, Z. You must definitely expand on this on your next show or something. It warrants more discussion.
I dunno about the 110 IQ, really. Jordan Petersen was correct when he said there was no correlation between IQ and virtue.
It’s entirely possible that could make things worse…
But wiring the stupid together into a network makes them a mighty weapon to be wielded by the worst elements against the best elements. Democracy is terrible in all of its manifestations. Democratizing Christianity killed it. Democratizing is plunging the West into darkness. Democracy, of course, is killing our nations.
The democratization of Christianity definitely had a negative counter effect on the Catholic church as we can see that what passes for Catholicism today appears to be just another denomination scrambling to make itself relevant to modern people by twisting itself into a progressive shape.
Whether we can/should return to traditional Catholicism remains to be seen, but there is value to be gleaned from the actual not assumed teachings of the Magisterium.
As an example, this article on race jives with the race realist view of a world where nations are properly ordered by race and/or ethnicity:
https://middleearthmag.com/on-race-and-the-magisterium/
Now, why God allowed his church to be taken over by liberalism and arrive at this confusing state is beyond me…
Possibly. Not trying to be a dink, Z – but I wonder: is it the stupid people that are our most clear and present danger? Or the smart people that use them and mobilize them?
The church did quite well right up until the liberation and empowerment of women. None of these self destructive behaviours would gain any traction were it not for women. They are so messed up nowadays that they will fight tooth and nail for the right to murder their own babies. What they did to the church, they are now doing to the press, the sciences and schools, the family…
Perhaps we just took democratization too far…? It certainly bears more thinking about…
I’ve long suspected you Zman of being a closet Catholic.
1. Why do these discussions always leave out the Orthodox churches? Wierd.
Also… What is it about the LCMS and WS (the Lutheran churches in the U.S.*) that enables them to keep the globohomo out of their churches? And why do dissidents never ask how they did it and if it can be copied.
3. What does the Z-man say Christ is? That is: “Jesus of Nazareth is one of history’s ————- ”
*ELCA and te state churches of Europe are a skin suits: trans-Lutheran
speaking of influential people , Epstein may turn out to be much more influential than we knew …
https://theamericansun.com/2021/09/01/epstein-revisited/comment-page-1/#comment-28952
Add to your point that none of Epstein’s “customers” have been charged, the fact that Epstein was undoubtedly murdered (cellmate transferred out the same day, cameras turned off, guards “asleep”, bedsheets were designed to tear to make hanging impossible, and bed he hanged himself from was about five feet high). In addition, no one in the hedge fund community understood who his clients were or how he became a billionaire. My suspicion is he was a deep state operative, funded by the NSA/CIA/FBI to blackmail world leaders. He somehow got crosswise with the elite deep-staters, and was murdered. The tapes are quietly being used to control whoever was stupid enough to be filmed.
He was working for Mossad, just like Maxwell, her father worked for Mossad too
I suspect it was the CIA/FBI who killed Epstein, that he could run his blackmail operation under their noses for so long is pretty embarrassing
That makes sense, thanks.
It was not embarrassment that was the cause of Epstein’s death.
It was damage that he could do to the great and the good.
Saint Bill of Gates is but one minor example.
Acosta said he was told to back off Epstein because he was intellegence. I took that mean our’s. He wasn’t killed outa embarrassment. They lack the capacity for embarrassment.
The idea that *any* of our enemies are blackmailed into doing us wrong is the great righty cope. They hurt us because they enjoy it.
Epstein was just one of them, abusing the livestock. If they killed him it was for an intra-class offense. Start with a list of non-Jewish white ruling class daughters who are about fifteen years old now.
Epstein was killed because he became relatively famous. That’s a big no-no for secret operatives.
One motivated Zionist who preceded the British creation was a certain Austrian painter, with the condition that they actually had to *go live there*. He might have pulled it off too, if it wasn’t for those meddling kids.
The Christian Zionists I’ve met oddly occupy themselves with fears of the spread of ‘witchcraft’ in things like Star Wars and Harry Potter.
The Austrian painter also predicted that most Jews would not want to live in Israel, AFAIK so far this is still true
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So William Hechler was a German.
He got the Kaiser to ask the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire to create a Jewish homeland.
At the time, the Ottomans were the “sick man of Europe.” You don’t need much pressure to topple a rickety statue.
I can’t improve on this much-
“The Bible does not support the delineation, which many maintain, that there are two peoples of God: the Jews who constituted the nation of Israel under the Old Testament and the Christians who constitute the church under the New Testament. As a consequence of adhering to this erroneous view, many have drifted into further error by believing that the modern nation which calls itself Israel — a heathen, anti-Christian nation comprised of many who falsely identify themselves as Jews — is the Israel of God, and that its establishment in the 20th century was a fulfillment of biblical prophecy. ”
https://www.christianityapplied.org/old-testament-israelites-and-new-testament-christians-are-all-one-church/
It is an interesting contradiction that Christians generally believe Jews are people of God, while also believing the New Testament teaching that no one gets to God but through Jesus, who Jews emphatically deny. The logical conclusion is that Jews are not saved, or that they are given some post-death chance to convert. But Christians just allow this cognitive dissonance to hang out there, or are just too polite to say state this conclusion.
Actually, you meet some hostility in evangelical circles if you bring this up. The idea that Jews don’t need to seek salvation through Christ has also recently become official doctrine in the Catholic Church.
Catholics believe all people of children of God, but we also believe salvation is only achieved through Christ.
It’s my thought that an adherent Jew may end up like a good practicing Jew of pre-Christ, in Sheol, awaiting the final judgement with us all. I would think they would enter heaving then, not before. However a good practicing Christian can either go straight to heaven (i.e. a Saint) or after purgatory.
A great first chapter that adds clarity is in Douglas Reed’s ‘Controversy of Zion,’ which is available as free PDF on Unz’s site.
Catholic doctrine teaches that the Church comprises the true inherited Israel, with the Throne of Saint Peter set above it. There is no need to advocate for a physical Israel for the non-believer Jews.
Having said that, the wobbly Francis, pontiff of this world seems to have jettisoned this understanding with much of the Church’s philosophy and doctrine.
It should also be noted that many of the legal arms of Catholic charities regarding “refugees” are almost entirely manned by the tribe… to the point of practically wearing a Catholic skinsuit. This is not to say that there arent many Catholics that are part of this invasion of the West, but there it is.
Comment snagged in your Zionist Inc. filter, Zman. I spelled out the whole J word, my bad, I forget to edit my writing at times, as I am not a man that practices speaking around things in real life, and what survival filtering I do bridle myself with already chafes enough.
I believe you Zman when you say this filter isn’t intentional and I imagone you don’t want your site turning into a Daily Stormer anti-semitism hole… but can you not tweek the filter so as to not hiccup every time the J word is used?
What you need to know about Christian Zionism is this: it’s a white thang, everybody should understand. Non-white Christians, who are presumably as good as Christians as their white counterparts, aren’t really interested and are often even hostile. Christian Zionism is a by-product of the Jewish led genocidal racism against all things white, a “no mas” reaction to oppression. It took root precisely among those Southern evangelical types who were getting the hardest hammer blows from the new racist system. It’s just a variation of the standard “please don’t call me a racist” conservative cringe. The one that has them calling for more wonderful Afghan refugees right now. The commenters are right to say that it didn’t really exist before the 1960s. That Christian Zionists and conservatives continue to indulge their enemies in the face of their utter enslavement and destruction shows that it is indeed a phenomenon driven by oppression and fear. And of course those at the top of both movements are utter crooks who live by selling and victimizing their supporters, of the sort that always arise in an occupation.
This is all true. And I would add that these same people enjoy watching the Palestinians be dominated. Maybe they look at grandma’s old mammy pancake syrup dispenser and long for the good-ol’ days when they see that. They sit in their banal suburban houses (with brick facia only on the front, and cheap masonite in all around (much like their versions of Christianity) and enjoy watching those “rag heads” being thrown around. I’m not on team Ayrab, but it’s very un-Christian. Similar to the anti-Christian statements from the Alzheimer’s patient on Afghanistan “We won’t forgive! We won’t forget!” – How very…..Jewish…and Ayrab too….
Nietzsche, and writers like Vardis Fisher (Mountain Man), intuited that Christianity was a kind of suicide cult…The Christian Zionists are great evidence that, for white people, much of it is…
You get credit today for first naming Nietzsche. He actually has quite a lot to say about the Jews, Christianity and related topics. I’ll try to sketch a summary. In the first place, it’s worth mentioning that N. was no Anti-Semite; indeed, he probably was grudgingly approving of them, if for no other reasons, than by their religion innovations, both the earlier Judaism and later (via St. Paul) of Christianity. N. recognized their religion as a tool for them to help their own survival. This is an important theme, since the Jews as a people have existed for thousands of years and rarely had a country to call their own.
N. was distrustful of democracy for largely the same reasons as he was of religion: because it was still a defense by the herd (the weak) against the predator (the strong), essentially a “slave religion” but by the time it emerges a secular democracy, a religion’s moral and legal system but stripped of overt religious theme.
I don’t think N. got much into the “Jews as conspirators” drama; after all, it’d be hard to do so if he was largely neutral on their overall contributions to civilization 🙂
Choose another author to fill in the blanks: Christianity as a secret Jewish plot to wrest control of Gentile peoples; antisemitism, especially in Middle Ages, in part, as a reaction to the threat, real or perceived of this — e.g. Spain’s persecution of the “conversos” (crypto-Jews). Adjust to other times and places for the pogrom of your choice. Certainly, many pogroms were promulgated, regardless of claimed reasons, to strip the Jews of their wealth and power (when they had such). But the idea to purify the One True Faith, expelling the non-Christian, must surely have been a motive often times.
N. does make much of the Protestant Reformation, but not in any way, to my ken, relating to Judaism. He IS most concerned, I dare say, with this leading to further breakdown of the old aristocracy or nobility, and (yuk!) the eventual arising of democracies. Zman notes the diversity (fragmentation) of religious beliefs; in a similar way, democracy brings at least the promise of one man, one vote.
In closing, do consider the fever-dream outside chance, that Christianity, from its birth, is part of some vast Jewish conspiracy for world control and eventual establishment of a Jewish homeland. Beyond question, such thought is part of Christian tradition, even if not the centerpiece of it. For whatever reasons, fundamentalist (and perhaps other sect) advocacy, at times verging on unquestioning support, for Israel because “It’s in God’s word” is clearly a political force today and one that any rational observer would same expect would be nursed by Zionists for their ultimate benefit.
The sad thing about this is that the least amount of support for Christian Zionism (which doesn’t have a theological leg to stand on) is now in the rapidly dying Mainline branches. For instance, the PCUSA, possibly the most shit-lib denomination outside of Unitarians, endorses, or at least a few years ago endorsed the BDS Movement over the Palestinians. Now that nearly all of Christianity is slowly dying, we can expect Christian Zionism to follow with that. I’ve noticed the new Millennial pastors are not down with it. But, sadly, they’re also craft beer brewing shit-libs, even in the most conservative Protestant churches. There’s something about Christianity today that repels any right winger on its face, regardless of denomination. It’s a hyper-feminized “longhouse” as some call it. This is a breeding ground for left wingers not right wingers. So the right has nothing left other than memes of black suns and a return to nature. In reality this means the rise of the atheist right, and the coming of a Nihilist centered right wing movement. I for one, as a practicing Christian, embrace it! Christianity needs to be cut to its very roots to survive, and this Nihilist bent will do it. Otherwise the slow, lingering death of the last century will continue in perpetuity. How many of these denominations would even exist without massive grant infusions from governments? Not too many. The rise in Communism in Russia was the result of many things, but ultimately, it was the result of a spiritually dead, corrupt, Russian Orthodox Church, that became too entwined with the Czarist era government. The same will happen here, in a different way. Christianity, like a bulb plant, needs to have its husk cut to the ground, so that it may grow again in some future Spring, likely not in our lifetimes.
Weighty post, JR. I’m not a believer but I can imagine what it would take for a believer to write:
“In reality this means the rise of the atheist right, and the coming of a Nihilist centered right wing movement. I for one, as a practicing Christian, embrace it! Christianity needs to be cut to its very roots to survive, and this Nihilist bent will do it.”
I sincerely hope that guys like you and me can work together. Maybe you’ll persuade me about theological questions, maybe I’ll persuade you, but let’s set our land aright.
I totally agree.^^^. My thoughts on that come from years of disappointment, with the same patterns emerging in every church I have attended. My guiding theological philosophy is, if Christianity runs agains the laws of nature, including biology, which were created by God, it’s not nature’s problem, its Christianity’s problem, and that means there’s something wrong. It requires critical thinking. Overall what do I see? In one word. Weakness. Weakness disguised as “love” or “acceptance” or “tolerance” or “charity,” or a thousand other words. A womanly weakness that infects Christianity, lost in cheap emotive praise. So called “love” stripped of duty and sacrifice is just sentiment. The same sentiment that causes them to hoist a rainbow flag above the front door and import millions of strangers like stray cats. The same sentiment that is causing the same mega-church crowd to follow suit. If you drive a car and hear screeching from the engine as the check engine light illuminates, you don’t think everything is fine-and-dandy.
I agree wholeheartedly. What you’ve written is a near-perfect distillation of a few core Nietzsche arguments.
The Orthodox Church is somewhat converged, though Putin is making headway against that, but it is not yet a suicide cult…
We’re dying, are we? Let me say this about that: yes, the big mega churches and mainline denominations are going TU. They put queers and pedos in the pulpit, or crazy fifth wave feminist cat ladies or the usual garden variety chitlibs and SJW’s… and of course the doors close as the congregation walks out. The media crows in delight and pozzed media declares victory.
Next time you think of it: look at all the tiny little churches that are cropping up. They’re only big enough for anywhere from a couple dozen to maybe 100 people. They’re everywhere! More are popping up everywhere too! They are in the old dying brick and mortar shopping malls, in office buildings, in old neighborhood buildings that used to house small residential stores and businesses. They quietly do their thing off the radar in small numbers, and though they render unto Caesar… they don’t bow down to him or give him an inch! They vet their members and police them free of their former overbearing politically correct administrators and scrutineers.
If your church has been pozzed and gone belly up… keep a sharp eye. It may have reopened right under your nose.
😊👍
The Mormons have a living prophet. Makes reform easier? Haven’t heard them making noises in dissident circles. But who knows what the future holds.
no. zman is too young to know the actual flow of events, vis-a-vis israeli influence in the USA. Israel did not even come to the attention of most Americans until the ’67 war. But it was all the holocaust documentaries in the early to mid 70’s that got the pity party going in earnest.
think about this, the movie version of “The Producers” came out in ’68; a comedy about Hitler, written by a Jew. No mention of the holocaust, not even obliquely. There is a Perry Mason episode from ’59 or ’60 where a character mentions offhandedly “those camps over in Europe” – which might be the first mention of the holocaust in American pop culture (TV, not books of course).
it wasn’t until ’73 that Israel became important to the US, and that was all for oil reasons. Now that we don’t need the ME oil, Israel will fade from such a prominent role here.
IMO this is another filler post.
Not until several million Christians in the United States are disinchanted by their form of Zionism.
Including prominent ones in conservatism inc like Mike Pompeo, Tom Cotton, and Mike Pence.
Biden’s Secretary of State, Deputy Secretary of State, Under Secretary of State, White House Chief of Staff, Director of National Intelligence, Deputy Director of the CIA and Director of Homeland Security – all Jewish – would beg to differ.
As would Biden’s Secretary of the Treasury and Attorney General.
Spot on, McHungus, in 1967 the Arab League paid an American PR firm $10 million to find out how to wrest away the narrative favoring Israel.
After a year, the puppet dictator Arafat had his answer: “Americans see Israel as plucky little underdog; Palestinians must become the oppressed cause celebre’, the plucky little underdog fighting for its survival.”
Thus the media messaging war began in earnest, and escalated, competing for the top spot on the Victim pole.
Germans had never heard of the Holocaust until the 1978 TV mini-series, “Holocaust” with Meryl Streep. It was the first TV series staffed with a phone bank to answer puzzled German callers’ questions as to, “what is a Holocaust?”
Yeah I made this point over at power line blog. Now that we energy independent- what we getting out of client state in the ME. The Jewish commentators went haywire. That was back before I knew that we were the client lol.
It is startling how deeply embedded some form of Christian Zionism is within most of conservative evangelicalism. Speaking as someone who spent a couple of decades in those circles, almost everyone buys into it to one extent or another.
What are we really talking about? The white middle class of America. How is the white middle class doing right now? This is era nothing compared to what’s coming. As whites in this country deal with more pressing matters like “why are we poor?” these churches themselves, with their 10% tithing, will fall apart. Hey Christian, where’s your first fruits? “They went to the electric bill.”
I disagree, Wirth, they’ll donate more. Not the lefty dips, they just like the decorations.
The traditional, either desperate for a miracle, or the committed, trying to build up a perimeter defense.
Only the fleecing will get publicity. Oddly, the goofiest “evangelicals” were given all the time they wanted on TV, to discredit the serious deliberations of the adults who lived by the Word.
Hucksters were given leave to make White culture look like fools.
Also, just a short footnote on Cromwell. He did not, as it happens, allow the Jews back into England. He did receive a petition for same, said he supported it, then sent it to a committee where it promptly died. The most that can he said is he didn’t kick out the Jews that had made their way back into England during the tumult of the wars. Interestingly, a lot of the Puritans – including well-known firebrand Prynne, and I think Major General John Lambert – were dead set against it.
(You can find most of this in Vol IV of William Abbott’s Writings and Speeches of Oliver Cromwell.)
The Puritans – both in England and in America — did identify with the story of Israel, that is of Moses leading them to the promised land – but that should be more understood as a political symbol in the sense of Eric Voegelin rather than a plan to remake the world. (That came with the unitarians.) If Cromwell wanted anything, it was a return to the Elizabethan arrangement – he shot the Levellers and sidelined the Fifth Monarchy men, that is the most radical of the Puritan groups.
Qui let them back in? Why, Charles II.
And, Charles 1 enslaved and oppressed the Irish as eagerly as did Cromwell.
There are a lot of holes in the “root of all evil” clause. As a raving, bloodthirsty antisemite, I might have to reduce “all evil” to, I dunno, 80%?
and its also worth mentioning that Cromwell’s Irish campaign came at the end of a bloody three-way civil war in Ireland that had kicked off in 1641; his campaign, for better or worse, put and end to that. Plus there was the suspicion in 1641 that Charles I might bringer an Irish army to suppress Parliament. All part of the Protestant fears of Catholicism at the time, which were not completely groundless.
Cromwell is definitely, as Z said, a once-in-a-millennia figure in English history. I think he strangled the idea of “absolute rule” in its cradle — that’s certainly what Charles I was after — and made it impossible that a system on French or Spanish lines would ever develop in England. The structural defects the Protestantism — the rejection of tradition as a standard for reading the Bible, as is the case in Orthodoxy at least – is another matter entirely, but in my view I can understand completely why England would reject the Roman hierarchy. Suspicion of Rome dates back to the appearance of Augustine in the 7th C, which had the effect replaced the native Celtic and Anglo-Saxon norms with Roman ones.
I dunno. Although there may be some human concern for assuring Israel’s survival in that face of Islamics bent on slaughter, the only real concern for the past century has been assuring a cheap supply of oil. Besides oil, absolutely nothing else in the Middle East matters at all. I don’t personally know any real DC or deep state types who give a rat’s ass about Israel. Look, for example, at the habit of Robert Mueller, a perfect representative of deep state nous, for investigating ties to Israel. To that extent, the Jewish thing is a liability for people not as sophisticated as Blinken to seek political advancement.
I dunno. The Arabs can’t eat oil, they have nothing else to offer the world, and so they have to sell it. If they refuse to sell it to us then they will sell it to someone else who will sell it to us.
Oil producing countries seem to form cartels to raise the price but our generational presence in the Middle East doesn’t seem to disincentive this.
The “cheap oil” explanation rings hollow. If you want to avoid the chosen people thing explanation, then the best explanation is enriching the military-industrial complex.
FDR totally blew it with Saudi.
We should have gone in there hard and heavy in ’42 or ’43, dropped a division or two in there, colonized it, and turned it into a US overseas territory or commonwealth.
No one could have stopped us doing that between ’43 and ’47.
The USSR was recovering from nearly being broken by the Wehrmacht. They had no air or seaborne heavy lift capability.
No one else had the bomb and the ability to wage nuclear war.
we probably would have, if we needed the oil then. which we didn’t.
Omigosh. You mean all the ass-kissing and Wall-wailing is as fake and gay as everything else?
“When every man could read the Bible, ever man’s interpretation of Scripture was suddenly equal.”
That does not follow. Reading and interpretation are different things. Reading is a basic epistemological tool easily mastered by the vast majority of adults. Interpretation is a higher-order intellectual act that can be accomplished by perhaps 65 or 70 percent of adults. I rather doubt early protestant intellectuals conflated the two.
When Z-man speaks of every interpretation being equal, he is speaking of an idea that properly belongs to postmodern theory. The former group (protestant intellectuals) were moderate egalitarians in that they believed everybody had the right to read the word of God. The latter are radical egalitarians by virtue of their unvarnished relativism.
A lot of this has to do with the problems that came out of the Second Great Awakening in the first half of the 19th Century. Converts were encouraged to think of their relationship with God on a personal level and were less committed to their specific church.
It is natural that people were upset about corruption in the church, but this movement led to many offshoots some of which were crazy/heretical and a significant feminization of the church. Abolitionist holy rollers really came into prominence during this time. The Mormons and the Shakers also got their movements rolling.
A modern comparison is that every American can read the Constitution for himself, thus it doesn’t mean anything, therefore we should trust the lying judges to explain it.
The basics of Christianity have never been in dispute. Many people get those basics wrong for many reasons, but reading comprehension difficulties is not one of them.
Jewish Influence on Christian Reform Movements Paperback – June 20, 2012
by Louis Israel Newman
“Without hierarchy, theology was turned over to the entrepreneur, always looking for a novel way to sell Scripture.”
This is a good description of the ridiculous concept of the rapture. It arouse from evangelical roots in the 19th century. Most attribute it to J. N. Darby, but there are others that attribute it to a 15 year old girl, Margaret MacDonald, or a Jesuit priest, Manuel De Lacunza. This completely unbiblical belief was fairly obscure, at least until the Scofield Reference Bible, compiled by a man who abandoned his wife and children and made no attempt to provide financially for them and was convicted of defrauding investors when he was a politician in Kansas. But, the real entrepreneurs were authors like Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye. They reached millions with their scam. And Hollywood has gotten into act, making several rapture based movies. They have no problem with promoting something that sells a lot of popcorn. The entire premise of the rapture is based on a few disparate biblical references that have nothing in common, except the desire to fuse them together to create a fiction for fundamentalist believers. The lynchpin of the whole fiction seems to be Thessalonians 4:17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so, shall we ever be with the Lord. No where does this say that these believers will be transported back to heaven. It says they shall be with the Lord. But, supposedly the Messiah is returning to earth to conquer it, so these believers that are caught up in the air shall return to Earth with him, not go to heaven to hide away for a few years until they “really” return. This action of being caught up in the air is an action that was common when kings visited a part of their kingdom. The heads of the city would go out to meet him and escort him into the city. Somehow, though, in the rapture theory, the heads of the city go back to the capital with the king and leave the rest of the city behind. I guess these city leaders then eat bon bons and peeled grapes for a few years while the city disintegrates. Anyway, foolish people are gullible and the rapture appeals to their perception of themselves.
The Evangelicals are ridiculous. Everything about them is ridiculous. Probably more than 1/2 of them are just being scammed. The idea that you, without any training whatsoever should read a localized translation of the Bible and decide for yourself what it means is just the height of stupidity.
They read themselves into the bible, themselves and all of their biases. If you’re an SJW, you’re going to read how Jesus was an SJW.
I think Evangelicals make up the majority of young Earth creationists too.
As Hume wrote back in the 18th century, there is no such thing as a rational religious belief. Any attempt to engage in a logical discussion with a person of any “faith” is destined for ignominious failure. Imagine the difference in biblical interpretation between a Christian who is a classical scholar and that of a rancher in Idaho. Ignorant Christians have no clue of the connections between Greco-Roman civilization and its impact on the small Hebrew communities in the Levant. Without an awareness of this immense influence, reading the Bible in isolation results in the strange cult-like followings so common among Protestants. But a Protestant church formed by classically trained scholars resulted in the magnificent Church of England. Both are based on irrational beliefs, but what a difference.
The Anglican “church” is worst of all. Tranny “priests” “marrying” homosexuals.
Blessed are the pedophiles……
now. same as the catholic church, now.
The Church of England self-destructed after WWI, along with the rest English society. At one time, they were the beacon of our civilization. Think George Washington.
It’s possible that Colonists weren”t against the Papists, so much, as they were against one closer to home, the purely government-invented religion of the Anglican Church.
The Puritans, then, were a British Martin Luther, perhaps?
I believe in one Monty Python skit they were called Lapsed Atheist. 🙂
You mean the Church of England that is giving us the current deviant royal family?
Throw in some rainbow deviancy too.
got that backwards son, it was the royal family that gave England the CoE. Henry something I believe…
“Irrational beliefs”- just a different dialect than the one you prefer, really- should be a bit eccentric, cool, and fun.
We are talking comic books here, after all. Illustrations for the heart.
when the next evangelical learns about Thomas Aquinas, they will be the first one to do so. just don’t tell them he didn’t play guitar or clap along to bad singing.
Betcha he wore big, colorful velvet gowns, and really hammed up the gospel uluations.
He was from Africa, right? Or ws that Augustine that had the pink Caddy convertible?
You’re thinking of Augustine.
If I recall, he’s the one who wrote as a young man, “Save me Jesus, but not quite yet.”
The battle between the Spirit and the flesh.
Thomas Aquinas? I understood that he was Italian, but as that’s what the lying yidapedia says https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aquinas
Probably actually welsh or Russian or anything but Italian
I will say this about my Ashcan Nazi friends, they seem to have a lot more health issues, depression, anxiety, irritable bowel syndrome, and so on … than any other group. By far, and medicated beyond belief.
They also seem to have at least one special needs child per family.
In the main, the only things that my middle aged Ashcan Nazi friend, male, seem to talk about are their health issues and money.
I know, this may sound like a meme, but that is my experience and I have friends from white hat lawyers, IT, and academia that are Ashcan Nazis.
Inbreeding has its problems.
Funny but I’m always hearing about how out-marriage is a problem for them.
Of course, it always seems they end up with the offspring. It’s like the one-drop rule, especially if they do something they like.
Yes, out breeding is a problem to Jews remaining Jews. Jews breeding out of the religion is a problem for Jewish Identity. Jews breeding among Jews is a problem for genetic health. However, that is ameliorated via genetic counseling these days—and I suspect abortion handles the rest, regardless of Jewish law.
Abortion is legal under Jewish law.
Ginsberg saw it in, Kagan verified late-term, most of the providers were J through the 90s.
Another over-represented racket led by our ‘fellows’.
There are three main branches of Judaism. Orthodox are not particularly abortion friendly. The others are of little interest to me.
yep. they are checkmated by biology. keep marrying within the faith, and you get more and more defects until kaput. out marry to fix in breeding, and people move away from the faith.
mormons and arabs have the same problem.
Mormons are one of the healthiest groups in America. Fitter, more fecund, more active, and smarter than the average white American. In the event of a civil conflict the Mormons must be recruited.
Agreed, but in my experience, many have a serious screw loose somewhere too. Fight beside them, but never turn your back on one.
just go to the airport in SLC and see for yourself. only place i have seen with worse DNA is Missouri.
Amish, not Mormons. Mormons evangelize, which brings in new blood.
@TomA would be interested to hear more…I’ve only ever had good experiences with them. My sister is dating a Mormon and looking at getting baptized into the religion…I’ve worked out with the guy a few times and he’s very motivated, a real man’s man except that he doesn’t drink. Solid guy. The other Mormons I’ve known well have all been exceptional ppl as well.
Agreed, but I do reflect on the fact that neurotic girly men that shit their pants randomly control major industries and portions of our social and economic lives.
As stated, I have interactions with ‘high level’ people of this stripe. Anecdotal, small pool of subjects, but there it is.
I am a tribeswoman and there is a lot of truth to what you say.
The text for American Christian Zionism really was written by Cyrus I. Scofield and known as the “Scofield Bible.” It took the tradition from Cromwell and Hechler and developed the theory of dispensationalism, which evolved into American-style Christian Sionism. The largest congregation to embrace this weird belief system was the Southern Baptists, who are rapidly dying out–it lost almost a half of a million last year.
Is-Real is on borrowed time for any number of reasons, many if not most emanating from the United States. American Jeuwelry is dying out and losing prominence, which seems ludicrous given its influence and basic domination of the United States government and culture. Yet it is receding and this is one reason the Jeus are so batshit crazy lately. They also are becoming less educated and intelligent at an astounding rate. Of even more importance, Christian Zionists also are disappearing at a rapid rate. Throw in a nuclear-armed Iran and an America receding from the world, and Is-Real doesn’t seem to have much of a future.
It’s the Presbyterians we hope will soon die out. They are the spear-point of the Christian Zionists, the more so because they are educated and financially able to back up their belief with political power. Dangerous folk. Some of you Presbyterians need to come on here and defend yourselves.
Although raised a Presbyterian, our local church fortunately never embraced such zealotry. I can’t speak to the larger phenomenon in Presbyterian circles. It may well be that the same rationalizations that lead to cultural suicide in other sects operate there as well. I note in modern Progressive liturgy a marked pseudo-Christian tone. There is little doubt in my mind that the vacuum left by the collapse of the church in the US has been filled with a new religion. Whether that new religion survives is anyone’s guess. It simultaneously attacks Christians as too-Christian and not-Christian enough, and has allied itself with political aims and a set of precepts that seem quite unsustainable to the outsider. In related news, the magic dirt theory of human flourishing is being heavily promoted in curricular materials and being used to justify rectifying such ‘unfairness’. Again, a religious system so allied with grift and resentment seems unlikely to me to stand the test of time, but who knows? https://bbk12e1-cdn.myschoolcdn.com/ftpimages/899/misc/misc_190118.pdf
I believe its the PCUSA presby’s that fit your description. The reformed PCA and OPC are convent believers, not dispy. I could be mistaken.
and covenant…oops.
I attend a PCA church. It is definitely covenantal, not dispensational.
Back in the spring we had a guest sermon from a guy who is part of a group that goes to Israel and evangelizes Jews.
Yep, the noose for Scofield fits.
Dispensationalism exploded after the jews took over Christian publishing. What are the odds…hmm.
Acclaimed historian Carl Bridenbaugh has pointed out that a major impetus for the Puritan emigration to the New World was their disgust with the English morals of the 17th century. London then was the scene of incredible abuse of gin and ale and also the world capital of prostitution.
Looked at from that point of view, that the Puritans felt justified in being at the forefront of the extermination of the natives in order to escape the licentiousness of their own homeland, it’s easy to understand the Zionist attitude, even though they have made no effort to perform genocide on the Arabs, who are quite effective at doing so themselves.
“…their disgust with the English morals of the 17th century.”
So Cromwell invites the Tribe back to London in the mid-17th century and the situation got even worse. Read about London’s Covent Garden in 1750 if you want to see what loose living REALLY looks like. Or maybe the London of 1838 which Dickens describes in Oliver Twist.
See my post above. Charles II allowed them back in, not Cromwell. Which doesn’t in the least undercut your point about Covent Garden circa 1750. “The Rake’s Progress,” and all.
nailheadtom, I appreciate your historical knowledge and benefit from your comments. Nonetheless…
You may regret that whites came to the New World, but once they arrived, was any peaceable co-existence with the natives possible?
Jefferson was not kidding when he called them “merciless savages.” You must acknowledge that American Indians, at least some of them, were probably the most cruel and sadistic people who have ever existed.
Given that the whites came to the New World and given the stunning savagery of the natives, was any outcome other than conquest possible?
(Can’t resist: You can’t say that we genocided American Indians when there are more of them alive on reservations than lived then.)
the thing the soft heads never mention, when boo hooing about indians, is they were constantly slaughtering each other. read up on the commanches, and how tribes they had mauled would help the cavalry track and find commanche groups to attack. i strongly recommend you read up a little on the commanches, and then watch “The Searchers” again.
IMO, that was Mr Wayne’s finest performance…
What one tribe of Indians did to another, even made the cavalrymen blanch. Scout reports in the compendium, “Scalp Dance” tells the story, unabashed, of the horrors one tribe was ready and willing to unleash upon the other should they fall captive. Hence the reason all cavalrymen on patrol carried a “spare” bullet in their hat band.
indians would make a jihadi blanche.
There are storm clouds ahead and we are a ship being tossed on high seas. The captain at the helm is a barnacle with failing faculties and a thirst for disaster.
So how does a better understanding of historical Christian Zionism help out as we search for a remedy to our plight? Are we going to feverishly rally around the cause of exposing Zionism as folly? Is that really our highest priority as our borders are being overrun and the fuse on the national debt bomb grows ominously shorter? Do we really have the luxury of endlessly debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
Perhaps if there were a big hole in the bottom of the boat, there might be a greater sense of urgency.
Christian Zen is dying and receding. It’s largest group of enablers, the Southern Baptists, are imploding.
Zionism was/is a White man thing—as is Christianity—in the US. As we turn “brown” it will recede of its own accord. However, if we could remain a White nation, as in the 60’s, I’d accept the burden of Zionism gladly.
Excuse me, sir, but weapons must be checked in at the lobby.
No pistols allowed in the salon.
TomA asks, “So how does a better understanding of historical Christian Zionism help out as we search for a remedy to our plight?”
Because the study of recent history reveals the strongest forces that we will face when we finally rise up. Know your enemy.
You may wish that these people have not chosen you as their enemy, but they have chosen you nonetheless. They will attack you as strenuously as they will attack me, even if you find me repellant.
First, I don’t find you repellent in the least. My hope is that we are in fact allies in common cause.
Second, I am most definitely not underestimating either the forces or the people that oppose us in the DR. I am a realist through-and-through, and harbor no illusions about what it will take to prevail against this form of cancer.
Last, neither endless studying nor endless yakking is going to solve the root problem. And both, in the extremis, serve only to justify staying on the couch and not rolling up your sleeves. Much as I wish it were otherwise, I don’t think we can talk our way out the mess we’re in.
Finally, I’m not the sort that can stomach hiding in the middle of the herd when the real fight on the perimeter.
If you wish to plan for the future, it helps to avoid making the more egregious mistakes of the past. It’s like standing on the rubble of a building and contemplating building a new one in its place. Step one is figuring out what went wrong with the last one and incorporating failure analysis into your next set of plans.
You really have to wonder about people whose purpose in life is to usher in the end times.
And on a selfish note, I have to wonder how I was raised Methodist but managed to remain mostly indifferent to God’s Chosen People 🙂
At any rate, Christian Zionism is a big piece of the cross people seem to be fixated on. I truly hope it’s run its course. Again selfishly, I hope I’m not unique in my outlook.
“You really have to wonder about people whose purpose in life is to usher in the end times.”
Such are the people who control the West. And I’m not talking about Christian Zionists, either.
Semi-OT:
US citizens abandoned to die in Afghanistan, thus confirming the value of a dark blue passport is somewhat less than zero:
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/we-are-fking-abandoning-american-citizens-says-livid-army-colonel-leaked-afghanistan
Somehow, I already knew this in my heart of hearts.
This is why I laugh in the face of my co-workers who have seen the Bourne Identity too many times and say dumb stuff like, “If there’s any trouble Imma go to the embassy, flash my passport and scream, ‘Lemme in!'”
Yeah guy, no.
Passport?
More like pissport.
This may sound like a rhetorical question, but please believe it isn’t: Why would any Westerners stay in country past the air base shutdown/bug-out, as opposed to getting up every day at 6am and start working on a way to get the hell out? Are these primarily white-women liberal arts majors procrastinating for the thrill of living in post-American Afghanistan with the strapping, beastly marauders coming in?
I may be missing something here, but I honestly don’t understand how a few hundred U.S.’ers can be there except by choice (passively/femininely or not)
Maybe it’s a similar situation to the investors who stayed in the twin towers after they were hit.
The Americans names are like Muhammad and Abdul and they worked for the American supported government.
They ain’t Bubba from Arkansas.
It’s a game politicians are playing now.
That’s correct. What is never mentioned is the race of these citizens. Many I suspect were dual citizens. Hell, even that puppet of an Afghan President is a US citizen. Don’t let the fake news and Deep State fool you into more expenditure of (White) American lives in that shithole.
I’d put it down to normalcy bias and the monetary compensation.
A lot of the those people are probably true believers in the nation building mission who thought they’d be there another 20 years.
Monetarily, there is are separate +35% pay bumps for hardship and danger pay. You can bet a lot of these gov types were getting other allowances for per diem, transport, lodging, and other things.
Then, you have the tax exemption on the first $100-110k of compensation.
A midwit Libtard with a worthless BA who can’t hack it in US academia, law, or politics could make out pretty well over there.
On the flip side, you have the ex-military/spec ops types working as security contractors that are pulling anywhere from $200-500k per year depending on their assignment.
Those guys probably aren’t in as much trouble because they can take care of themselves and they were in a position to see this mess coming more than anyone. They have ties to Blackwater/Academi/Xe and are able to orchestrate their own private rescue op.
I will give them the benefit of the doubt, the press creates our perception of the world , and everything they saw on the “news” pointed to a years long struggle with the Taliban. I’m pretty sure that they thought that Kabul airport would continue operation as a commercial airport . After all the afghan army was keeping the taliban at bay with a little support from the yanks . Every us soldier on the ground knew this would happen. , The normalcy bias of civilians living in Kabul, working for the NGO, and watching CNN showed a completely different world. I have some sympathy for them, normalcy bias and media trust is what the world subjugation to NWO via the Coof is powered by those same two forces . So far that has been completely impervious to logic , reason , and evidence.
By choice ? There were 15,000 Americans there, we’ve extracted 5000.
The Regime left 10,000 there as booty, the spoils of war.
Vae Victis!
Woe to the vanquished!
*****
On that O/T note, are we setting up a war between Afghan and Pakistan? Have the Sikh Republicans learned the art of proxies? Kashmir has been at war with Kabul for 600 years.
We (well, I for one) don’t know the exact numbers of Americans remaining. As I’ve opined here recently, while being in Afghanistan really sucks right now if you’re a Westerner, all is not lost. You are now a bargaining chip with a potentially high redemption value (“hostage”). There will be (already is, I’m reading…) a slaughter of any or all collaborators they can lay hands upon but they would tend to not kill high-value captives except perhaps by accident.
Wow, you know it’s really bad when the Woke regime is abandoning its vibrant Afghan “translators” to their fate with the Taliban:
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/dont-forget-me-bidens-2008-interpreter-stranded-afghanistan-hiding-taliban
Given the numbers of “helpful” Afghans we are told from the asking heads need to be “rescued” one would expect that each and every soldier on deployment had his own “interpreter”! People need to wake up.
And we’ve not seen the end yet, expect 10’s of thousands of Afghan emigrants fleeing the new government and making their way over to the US under the guise of being one of our collaborators and we “owe them”.
In Wokespeak, “interpreter,” is just another name for coolies, baggage handlers, and general laborers.
Good catch. I shall broaden my thinking in future posts.
Conservatives clamor for afghans. more, More, MORE! The fully-owned Libs have seen the error of their ways and indulge the Conservatives, bringing hundreds of thousands of magic carpet blue passportees to red states.
What is really odd about the idea, is that it is one that is both successful and intended to solely benefit another.
At least with Marxism, the believer would stand to stand to benefit at the expense of the 1 percent. (At least that is what was promised)
With Christian Zionism no benefit would accrue to the believer himself, as salvation would still have to come through adherence to the commandments and basic belief in Christ.
I think Jonathan Haidt is one who has done a good job recently of analyzing psychological benefits of economically null actions. “Rational self-interest” is, most likely, a libertoid mirage that has never governed human affairs. It’s the old “What’s The Matter With Kansas” fallacy — people don’t respond to money incentives only, otherwise we truly would be at the End Of History already
No benefit? Bringing the Reign of Jesus Christ to the world would benefit everyone. Isn’t fulfilling God’s Plan the ultimate point of adherence, and personal reward in heaven somewhat frowned upon?
To serve others, shunning selfishness and fear is another positive of the subtle, simple, profound Christian way of thinking.
The Zman pointed out that Marxism was a thoughtful reply to the pollution, crowding, filth, corruption, and inhumanity of the Industrial Revolution.
In 1844, the Royal Society declared that all that could be known, was known. American churches, seeing the end of history, prepared themselves becoming Pentecostal, Adventist, Latter Day, Baptist, millenials, as Jesus was sure to come do battle with demon rum and its evil spirits unleashed by Scots-Irish distillation.
Instead of the coming of the King, America got the Civil War.
Although Marx’s final solution was to kill 80% of the poor and burn their slums, both Marx and the Millenials were an attempt to solve for the intractable problems of their time.
I can’t fault them for trying.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Anyway, not to simply and annoyingly quote scripture: the world is fallen. Christians’ mission is to save souls, not the world. Conflating the two is the lie, imo. It’s a kind of materialism.
Oh, I thought you had spotted an echo that would resonate with Americans in 1850.
But, to counter, the Bible doesn’t believe in a heaven in the sky. That’s a holdover from Aryan cosmology.
The Bible explicitly states a perfected Earth, a resurrected Earth.
Nothing about going to Sigma Draconis or the Magellenic Cloud or wherever the Cosmic Intelligence types think it is.
(I stipulate that the 5 forces of Creation are far above intelligence, or gods, as they are local effects of a living world- as is Heaven itself. The Bible’s intent is social, not mechanics.)
I see the falling away from faith and the reconstitution of Israel, and how manufactured it all is, and it reminds me of my experience that suffering for its own sake is empty, worldly, selfish— whatever pejorative along those lines.
It’s the pleasure in unrighteousness mentioned in the passage. That’s more precisely what I was getting at.
Goy is cattle and that’s pretty much how they view us. It’s so handy we’re all putting on masks so we can actually become the faceless masses
The Zman sees them as opportunistic, like our sociopaths.
I split the difference between opportunistic and causative.
The Habiru who mated with Aryan whites, became more like us, less zealous. These I call the Hellenic Jews, such as the Aramaic-speaking urbans comfortable in Greco-Roman society, as they had been earlier in the Aryan-descent Babylons, Canaan, and Egypt.
The radical supremacist strain, the Judeans, claimed direct descent from Abraham, the Lucifer (chamberlain) who got them kicked out of civilization. (He was likely a composite figure.) These zealots, dreaming of taking our place as masters, I call the Hebraic.
They envied the dominance of the northern ‘invaders’, but could not grasp our acheivements. Focusing on what they could do well- intertribal politics as opposed to megalithic science- has made them formidable in the managerial-class niche. Unfortunately, they still fall quite short, since they aren’t us, indeed are bred in a different channel.
Thus, we end up with instinctive inversion, inversion, inversion, a poor copy that ends up making the zealot strain ruinous as that worlview turns all on its head in pursuit of a fantasy.
I see the Bible as a brilliant attempt to record and reconcile the two strains, a continuous quiet civil war within their society, as we have between our ambitious sociopaths and our community-minded.
The white-admixture came up with some very good stuff indeed trying to counter the zealot strain that sprang up in their midst. Still, they, like anyone, are torn between loyalty and damage.
The Christian Zionists are using the best encyclopedia they had at the time- and reflecting that inherent conflict and those styles within it.
“…much of the spiritual fervor that would flow into Christian identity politics is channeled into Zionism.”
We are fitting Aryan minds (bioware) with a Semitic operating system. The mismatch can lead to some pretty serious problems.
Edit: Pardon me, ‘misunderstandings’ would be a better ending than ‘problems’.
As to that radical, driven substrain- I submit a radical origin: the Arc of the Covenant.
They stumbled across a broken, still functional piece of megalithic EM technology in the asteroid shattered ruins of Sumer. It was something we had largely forgotten and they could not possibly understand.
It opened…a door…in the lineages that could survive its presence.
Cont.: to be more specific, a door (insula) to the Something that whites are deaf to.
Our deafness is why we’re so different. “It” doesn’t take up so much of our partition space: we are resistant to the boiling social passions, lust, and violence of the breeder-brained others. Cooler, more mechanistic in our thinking.
(That’s why the EM archetype we generate, the White Christ, is the key through the ionosphere barrier to Heaven, the tertiary seeding layer. The others, embroiled in passion and pain, remain trapped within the greenhouse, recycling as do animals: they don’t generate the proper communal frequency.)
Many apologies
Edit: “don’t generate the proper communal frequency to open the gate.)”
I’ve known and worked with a lot of Christian Zionists and two things about them stand out. One is that they’re not very intelligent, especially regarding history. Second is that they act like brainwashed cultists. The word ‘Israel’ triggers a Pavlovian reaction.
Mike Pence and Mike Pompeo
These men are probably above average in intelligence.
Both Christian Zionists
Those political types are probably high in EQ. Socially intelligent, but probably not so good in understanding abstract concepts and systematics
Yuo. Big difference between capacity and the way it’s channeled.
Anecdotes are not data.
yeah they are. how are they not a data point? of course there are other kinds of data, too.
Data as in the plural, and as in a comparison of averages of many points. That is statistical reasoning, which many fail to understand—and I don’t assume you are one of them, Karl. Your posts belie that.
But in general, it is indeed possible to state that Zionists are an bit lower in IQ than others and yet use Pence and Pompeo as examples of high functioning Zionists we’ve all heard about in government. Similar to our references to Sowell and Williams when we talk of Black intellectual conservatives.
well i was talking about the general case, re: anecdotes vs data 🙂
Pence reminds me of Race Bannon (re: Johhny Quest)
It hits our conditioning to root for the perceived underdog. From the surface, it seems like a small country that has western values that is antagonized for no reason by much larger and more powerful countries. Add this to the accepted historical narrative of persecution because people just hated them for no reason, and it’s easy to see how the mind virus takes hold.
It’s like playing the script of a classic High School sports story with the evil big jocks and the plucky eccentric outsiders who win against all odds at a geopolitical level, similar to what libs do with Harry Potter.
They compartmentalize thinking very strongly.
Ex: Rothschild bank is bad. Rothschild Israel good. Jesus says a tree can only produce all good fruit or only all bad fruit.
I had a judeo-christ fundamentalist friend who went on and on about the neo-cons and 9/11. I pointed out that neocons are small hats. He winced in pain, and then, never ever mention neocons again.
They prioritize ideas over physical.
I tend to think that: Ideology is left wing thinking style, where as right wing thinking is evidence based.
A christian fundamentalist prioritizes scripture to be the fundamental reality.
Third, they don’t actually read the Bible.
“It is not unreasonable to say that American foreign policy is controlled by the Israelis.”
That kind of talk will get you labeled a N*zi by the “respectable” folks on the right and left.
What about domestic policy ? The Fed, the media, talking heads of talmudvision , schools, medical and insurance mafias, pornography, payday lending, sports gambling….who the fuck do you think sits on the throne of the American shitshow? The Irish? It’s the Termites, and everybody fucking knows it. The forced clotshot is gonna be their Waterloo. a line crossed, where Hell is unleashed and no mind , no soul will ever be the same.
you can probably credit Oliver Cromwell with making it possible for Christian Zionism to flourish.
A better choice might be John Bunyan, whose “Pilgrim’s Progress” has been the most influential Puritan work since its publication in 1678. In the colonial northeast every home was likely to have both a Bible and Bunyan’s allegory, which remains in print to this day. Of course the Puritans were most concerned with the evil Catholic church. hanging witches and eradicating the native Americans. The Jews didn’t make the trifecta.
This is another good debate. Bunyan most certainly read Piers Plowman. The similarities are too many. He also read the Pearl Poet. The quest has played a huge role in Western culture. You can probably argue that it is as important as any idea in the West.
The Puritans who came to America (much to our misfortune) were obsessed with Judaism.
The governor of Plymouth, William Bradford, learned Hebrew and the movement continually compared themselves to the Hebrews, wandering until they could make their own New Jerusalem in America. Their descendants support of Zionism is because they believe when Jeebus comes back to Old Jerusalem the Israelis will finally discover they’ve been wrong for 2,021 years and counting and their messiah was already here and they’ll convert to Evangelical Christianity and everything will be wonderful.
That the Religious Heebs don’t like Jeebus and consider him and his followers are evil, not Good, never enters the thick skulls of Evangelicals, just as the secular bagels hatred of Whites and Christianity for other reasons never enters the dead space between their ears.
Those would be Christian versions of the archetypical ‘Hero Quest’, wouldn’t they.
More importantly, they were interested in “fraternal correction”; that is, being busybodies and telling their neighbors how to live. They felt responsible for the salvation of others. This Pilgrim belief has descended in a direct American line of succession to the secular Karens of today.
H. l. Mencken defined Puritanism as the fear that somewhere someone is enjoying himself
I don’t see that at all. I think John Bunyan had zero influence on Zionism. His book is an allegory for Christians containing the message to retreat from the world and embrace Pietism. How that message gets channeled into establishing a Jewish socialist state in Palestine is lost to me.
Cromwell, on the other hand, did seem to be Philo-Semitic as were many other strains of Puritanism. All sorts of strange theories came about with Puritanism and that led to the 19th-century concepts like the British Israelite movement and an obsession with being the chosen people. Plenty of the English elite in the Victorian age were on board with Zionism it is always been an elite project.
Modern-day Christian Zionism in the United States is centered more around the Pentecostals and fundamentalists.
Being an Israel-firster when you aren’t part of the Tribe is the conservative equivalent of being an LGBTQCIA “ally”
Let me be the first to say bravo and well done.
“Imagine what the world would be like if Isreal remained a concept, rather than a physical reality. The last century would not be possible”.
Imagine if there were no blacks, along with their horrific culture. Imagine what would be possible.
Imagine the world if the Byzantines, who outnumbered them by a factor of at least 5, had managed to strangle Islam in the crib at the Battle of Yarmuk.
I’ve read an “alternative history” short story (Title? Author?) with a similar plot. In lieu of Christianity, the author envisioned an expanded Roman empire. One local befriends a certain Mohammed, sees where trouble with his nascent sect might develop, and (off camera) the problem is solved via traditional Machiavellian methods. 😀
you can call me a dreamer, but i’m not the only one
Zman, your analyses aren’t usually simplistic but on this topic, you really need to review your sources.
Zionism flourished throughout the diaspora and took modern form in 11th century Spain with an actual mobilization and migration occurring in 17th century centered in Poland/Ukraine. It was the Dreyfuss trial at the turn of the 20th century that gave Herzl his mission. Herzl’s project was a homeland for the Jews and not in Palestine. Prussian politics and Ottoman lapses made Palestine the location for disposing of the Jews. Hechler is one of several Victorian footnotes compared to the greater influence of two of the most famous 19th century European anti-semites, the German von Treitschke (“The Jews are our misfortune”) and the Russian Pobodonetsev. (“A third of you will be assimilated, a third of you will be expatriated, a third of you will be annihilated.”) Nor was Lord Balfour a Christian Zionist.
Christian Zionism, primarily an American product, may not have been negligible, but it was not a major factor in Israel’s creation compared to Harry Truman’s need for fast money in the ’48 election. Evangelical support for Israel, based on anachronistic interpretations of Scripture, may support the existence and continuation of the Jewish state where it’s currently located, but few evangelicals are neocons. What you’re actually saying is that American foreign policy has found the existence of an Americanized client state in the Middle East to its advantage. That historical circumstances have made it a quasi-Jewish state is of minor significance.
You likely have some Jewish friends. See what their take on Christian Zionism might be.
excellent comment. nice details presented cogently.
Yep, imbroglio has the right of it. And this is not just a “Well, ackshually” sort of detail. Zionism is a deep vein in the jews and was a thing well before Protestantism or the 19th century American hot house of religious wackery.
It’s really bizarre how your average person can look at the modern Jewish Rabbi and Jewish ceremonies, then look at the religious ceremonies described in the Torah and say, “Yup, this is the same religion”.
It seems once all the Priests who could do sacrifices were gone, Judaism as a religion ceased to be, just like if all the Catholic Priests are executed, Catholicism would cease to be. The story of the Jewish religion seems to be 2000 years of cope.
Even odder that no one ever wonders why Israel hasn’t even bothered to rebuild their temple. Almost like it’s a racial identity with a religious veneer.
should the italians rebuild the coliseum, too?
They did. Square Colosseum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palazzo_della_Civilt%C3%A0_Italiana
Question, if we agree that liberal democracy is a bad idea, do we extend that train of thought to the exercise of religion? You point out that giving everyone access to the Bible resulted in a lowest-common-denominator form of Christianity and the rise of several (((bad habits))). I posit that as we need a moral people to maintain a healthy culture, we must have religion in our lives. Given that, how do we set up a system of religion where it’s difficult for the average person, using his own interpretations of morality, to once again undermine the requirements for a stable, productive society? Do we invest in a priesthood the sole authority to rule on such matters? If so, what do we do when we get another Bergoglio?
Since we have never observed a society not held together by shared belief among the ruling class, I’d say a common belief is a requirement of society. People are believing machines, so the question is now if they will believe, but what they will believe. Further, all societies are hierarchical, so the believe system must acknowledge this reality and support it.
We have a state religion.
The state is just working on crucifying the reclacitrant.
Wear a mask, take the jab, recycle, buy “sustainable” product, guns kill people, go to college, diversity is our strength, men and women are equal, SCIENCE!!!
America’s state religion is anti-racism, which may be the most unhinged, psychotic faith since the Mayan Religion, which at least had a tiny basis in reality.
Sun worship is rational compared to the belief system of the average Wokester.
I’d say “anti-racism” is downstream from the over riding concept/belief in equality. Allow for belief in inherent inequality, and racism loses much of its import.
Better to have a sane religion, guided by the sober-minded who recognize mankind’s limitations, than our present insane heretical sect, who hold permanent revolution in the service of an ever-evolving idea of humanity as the ultimate good. The early Christians (and those today who hold to this aspect of the faith) held God to be the ultimate judge. Modern lapsed Christians do not. They attempt to apply a poorly- and selectively-remembered set of pseudo-Christian beliefs to mankind without the redemptive figure of Christ and the mediating influence of God. By reducing God to an imaginary friend, they have reduced Him to a figure of the imagination, and thus made His strictures arbitrary and infinitely pliable. God is no longer a judge, but an inconvenience. Sadly, all our institutions depend on understandings of right and wrong developed over the millennia in accordance with faith. Strip the faith and the institutions seem arbitrary to the naive. The revolutionaries are, as you have so often pointed out, playing with forces they don’t understand.
Aha! They believe, achieving a warm moral (social) set, not a cold mechanistic one. Thanks.
Frankl was right. The Question isn’t ”why’ or ‘how’, but something more important: “where- do I belong?”
Interesting. We don’t discuss Victor Frankl much as he is a member of that (((tribe))), but he was influential in much of his writings—especially when I was a student.
A nice commentary Z. I forget if it was Joe Sobran or Pat Buchanan who [more than] once commented on the tremendous influence–mostly for the worse–that that tiny country exerted on the U.S., but then, ideas have always been more potent than mere size.
I was raised in the Reformed church. Steeped in Edwards and Calvin and Warfield, et al. I’m pretty certain that every prominent Puritan of the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries would almost universally be labeled anti-Semitic. Christian Zionism certainly exists but it also certainly did not find its genesis in early American puritanism. Douglas Wilson, over at Cedenda has written extensively on the topic. I’ll have to go search out some of his old musings on the subject.
Christian Zionists are by and large good everyday white people whom have loyally sent their sons to fight and die in these middle eastern forever wars. It’s a tragedy, of our own making.
The Scofield Bible is what I am familiar with and it’s profuse notes about the signs of the end times and the rebuilding of the temple.
I would always say to the Christian Zionist who thinks that the Jew in America is ready to read the New Testament, interpret its language the way Christian Zionists do, and build the temple again, I would tell them that most Jews in America would rather read the Wall Street Journal or Variety magazine instead.
Christian Zionism is the root of many of our modern problems and until those that believe it are disillusioned of it progress will be difficult in America.
The average evangelical Christian who is a Zionist does not realize the average American Jew hates them. Pew research published a survey in 2014 and the Jews have a more favorable opinion of Muslims than they do of Evangelical Christians. I have tried pointing this out to a few with mixed success at getting them to understand and accept it.
I have had Christian zionists tell me that they have no choice but to support Jews and Israel because Jesus commanded they do so. Talk about brainwashed
The Scofield Bible, published 1909, indeed was a major influence boosting Christian Zionism because of its interpretive notes:
https://www.wrmea.org/015-october/the-scofield-bible-the-book-that-made-zionists-of-americas-evangelical-christians.html
Hear, hear, Jack! The folks at Christianity Applied Org have compiled many refutations through secular and Biblical references.
G Gordon Giddy: A dear friend was raised on Christian Zionism (grandfather was a Baptist preacher). Over the course of the past few years I have definitely red-pilled her on the JQ, but her cope has been to decide that secular American and European Jews are Khazars and not the same genetic stock as Israelis and the Jews of the Bible. It’s progress of a sort.
The other tack I have utilized is stressing the striking number of parallels between traditional Jewish practices and beliefs per their Talmud and traditional Islam. It is essentially a rule book for a middle eastern tribe, adapted by 17th and 18th century Polish Jews, and then transferred to New York and Israel in the 20th century.
Christian Zionism is heresy, plain and simple.
The basic foundational principle of Christianity is the rejection of Jewry as “God’s Chosen People” who are commanded by Yahweh to kill their enemies so they can obtain their earthly Promised Land.
Christianity argues that anyone can be saved, and that the Promised Land is in the hereafter, not Zion.
It is for this reason that Christ was executed by the Pharisees… whom he characterized as a “pit of vipers” who would “burn in Hell.”
I had a brief flirtation with fundamentalism in my 20s. Fortunately sex, beer and music won out. 🙂 There are some loony beliefs, even by the lights of “mainstream” Church (Lutheran for me in that epoch.) At least we got some entertaining fiction, like the “Left Behind” novels and a movie or two. I’d include the J.T. Chick tracts in that category too. I must admit, some of them did give a twinge or two of unease.
Most ideas or even discoveries ,great or not ,would probably come to being no matter who espoused them. You know like the expression, an idea whose time as come.
Darwin had many contemporaries tracking with him, Einstein had a few. I’m not even sure Marx would recognize what is called Marxism.
I suspect you are giving too little credit to the founding of Zionism being that you can never undersell the power of jewish movements. E. Michael Jones may be skewed in a lot of his reasoning but I’m sure he could give much research contradicting you on Zionism. I have his book but too much of a tome for me to get through or even care.
There is no doubt the men are often made by the currents of history, but it also true that the currents of history are mad by men. Small differences can have enormous down stream results. Oliver Cromwell was a once in a millennia person. Maybe some other man could have led the fight against the crown, but it would not have been the same.
Cromwell was so popular with the English that when Charles II returned to the island his body was exhumed and his head publicly displayed on a pike for 24 years. The arrival of Charles II produced the most joyous celebration in English history, before or since. Cromwell’s legacy includes the eternal hatred of the native Irish for his unsuccessful attempt to kill each and every one of them, Catholics or not.
Most people today think Marx was evil. He was not very popular in his own time. Yet there is no denying his massive influence. The same can be said of Cromwell. Popularity <> influence.
absolute nonsense from a spud lover. so what if he hammered the irish, their place in the universe is as a chew toy for England. always was, always will be.
Come on Karl, how bad can a people be that gave us yet another holiday to get drunk on? Hell, when I was a student, we looked forward to March 17 as much as Spring Break that followed.