A popular argument in certain circles is that Christianity is to blame for the decline of the West, because it is blamed for various ills in the West. Individualism is often blamed on Christianity, because within most Christian sects, the individual has a unique relationship with God that is not dependent upon his relationship to his society, ethnic group or tribe. Another complaint is that Christianity demands openness, which invites in the sorts of elements antithetical to social solidarity.
There are many variations on this general theme and all of them have some kernel of truth to them. It is the heart of the rather silly argument behind the “woke right” nonsense promoted by crackpots like James Lindsay. He has created a new political scale where one end is any form of exclusivity, which he calls “woke” and the other end is complete openness, which he calls “classical liberalism.” It is mostly nonsense, but it does illustrate the anti-Christian claims about liberalism.
Professional Christians do themselves no good in this regard by embracing and celebrating nation wrecking ideas like open borders, diversity, the worship of nonwhites and an obsession with Israel. Most low-church ministers sound like the tourism minister from Israel fused with the HR manager at a major corporation. Of course, the more traditional churches are in deep with open borders, often getting government contracts from people who would like to stamp out Christianity.
In the final reckoning, the Christian churches and their entrepreneurial advocates will have much to answer for over their role in the crisis of the West. The question is whether this is the logical result of Christianity, or is it a novelty that grew from the spread of liberalism, particularly the American form of it. After all, 18th century Christians were not in favor of open borders, and they certainly did not think the worship of Israel was their reason to exist.
For those looking to absolve Christianity, that is the starting point. From the conversion of Europe into the 16th century, Christianity fit neatly into and was an integral part of the feudal order that ruled Europe. The Church provided a moral framework for the secular rules, but also provided a moral authority for them. The Church was the ultimate answer to the question, “who says?” whenever it was not obvious that the king was the person with final authority in his domain.
It is only when people started to question the set of reciprocal obligations and duties that defined the European political order that we see changes in the relationship between Christians and the prevailing social order. The Protestant revolution was as much a result of the weakening political order as it was disputes over the traditions and practices of Christians. In other words, the changes in the political order can be blamed for the revolution within Christianity.
Further context is the fact that the Church was a different thing in the later Middle Ages than what it was at the end of the Roman Empire. The Christianity that evolved to flourish and survive within Rome, had to further evolve after Rome. It continued to evolve to flourish within the new feudal order that defined Europe. Once the feudal order began to collapse, the Church evolved to adapt, often with localized versions to meet localized political changes.
The same framing can be applied to America. In the New World, the old religion was free to evolve and do so under unique circumstances. The Calvinism of the Old World arrived in New England, along with Anglicanism and Presbyterianism. Soon, every Christian sect of the Old World was setting up shop in the New World, quickly evolving and splintering into new versions to meet new conditions. America was a great experiment for more than just self-government.
What we call progressivism has its roots in this Christian experiment. A century ago, progressive literature was riddled with references to Scripture. The reason for that is it had its roots in Christian movements like abolitionism, social reform movements and the Social Gospel movement. The argument against slavery that animated the Civil War were not economic or political in nature. The abolitionists were acting upon their sense of moral justice informed by their Christin faith.
The way to understand America since Gettysburg is to think of it as a religious crusade masquerading as a country. The covenantal form of nationalism that still turns up in our politics has roots in the founding the country. Northern nationalism in the Civil War, for example, was linked to America’s alleged destiny to free the world. It was not enough to celebrate self-determination. America had a duty to help all people free themselves from domination and that started with the South.
This is the error people make when trying to blame liberalism for the current crisis or blame Christianity for the liberalism. American liberalism of the type the Framers embraced was replaced by a variant that borrowed the modes of thought from Protestant Christianity but eventually left out God and Scripture. The hole of authority has been filled with vague concepts like the “tides of history” and other expression that can be replaced with “the side of the angels.”
This creates a dilemma. It is clear that Christianity in the Old World evolved to meet the challenges of the changing political order, driven by the spread of Old World liberalism, but it is also clear that the new forms of Christianity informed that liberalism, and in the case of America, created a fusion of the two. That new ideological and theological cause, dressed in the garb of reason and pragmatism, then dominated the West, at the point of gun, until we have reached this point.
In the end, blaming liberalism or Christianity is a fool’s errand. The root cause probably goes much further back. For example, universalism is only possible in a cosmology that has just one God. In a world of many gods, there are many sources of moral authority, so therefore no one can claim a single moral order. Then you have the curse of reason that was given to us by the Greeks. If there is one God and one morally correct way of living, then our reason should be able to discover it.
The good news for the Christians is that the religion has shown an ability to adapt that no other faith has managed. Judaism has survived for longer, but only as a folk religion serving a tiny minority. Christianity has survived as a majority religion, through the ups and downs of Western civilization. Despite its current condition, it will most likely adapt and once again give cause to the flourishing of Western people. The same fate probably does not await liberalism or progressivism.
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“18th century Christians … certainly did not think the worship of Israel was their reason to exist.”
Honestly, I find this Israel worship personal insulting. It’s like these people have already thrown in the towel and have anointed the Jews as our superior overlords. Have some pride in yourself and in our people, for God’s sake.
Whether it is Israel, Jews or blacks, the worship of other people is a dysgenic perversion
Part of the issue is that the 20th century has made Americans wealthy. Israel became one of the golden calves to keep the goodies flowing.
In the US at least, for the most part, the younger and poorer you are, the less likely you see modern Israel as worship worthy.
The WASP ruling class is also stupid. I don’t think they completely appreciate the sleazy and nepotistic ways the Jews conduct business. For example, members of a very wealthy clan here were convicted of insider trading. They were like second or third cousins of whoever was on the board. Sure, they were caught, but how many others are there who weren’t? You don’t come from nothing, as 1% of the population and end up being 50% of all billionaires in this country just because God supposedly endowed you with higher IQ, which I’m also skeptical of. There’s a lot of… Read more »
Christians were warned more than once in the Bible that they would be infiltrated by wolves in sheep’s clothing, because that was how Satan worked…The Protestant mega-churches are a perfect example, and so is the accession of women to clerical status, explicitly banned by Paul…The Bible in no way promotes open borders, quite the opposite since God created the races and the nations and threw down the Tower of Babel…Homosexual behavior was also condemned quite explicitly, and the example of Sodom and Gomorrah given….
Indeed.
God’s mandate for humanity is nationalism, while globalism is considered a luciferian plot and threat that arises and eventually conquers in the end times. Which is now, and congealing fast.
After Babel fell, the nations and the languages deliberately were divided (Deuteronomy 32:8). Globalism is reserved for the millennial reign of Christ on earth. It is forbidden to humanity until then.
Exactly. Over the course of several centuries, but ramping up over the last couple was a resurrection of a variant of Marcionism, which is itself a rebranding of Plato’s Timaeus. You can kind of make a case for it because of the number of times God speaks of himself in the plural. The accepted explanation is, of course, the multiplicity of aspects that full actualization (Aquinas) requires.
Anyone throwing away the Old Testament or speaking of Him as God of Love, leaving out the part about God of Justice, is falling for the honeyed words these false prophets.
Not myself much of a Christian but our woes are not caused by Christianity. I think they are caused by affluence, the soft life and the resulting crash in testosterone levels. Rome, golden age Arabia, ancient Greece, ancient India, ancient China and the antecs all went through this cycle of softness leading to collapse. When young boys stop washing in cold water in the morning, you’re over the hill. Glubb remains the best brief intro to this.
Yeah, a lot of this is just the natural life cycle of an empire. When times get hard, watch whites tribe up and get tough. The Church will follow that change and find lots of scripture to give it moral authority.
The Church and secular rulers have a symbiotic relationship, but, ultimately, it’s the secular rulers who lead the way.
The secular rulers lead the way in the state. The Church is impacted by living in the world. It does have to adapt to the civil conditions in which it finds itself. However, if I can borrow a phrase, the Kingdom they have their eyes on is not of this world. Stable societies are the positive leftovers of a society with faith. They are not the direct goal of it.
I agree with that. A society without faith (or with a false faith) will die. The Church influences leaders and vice versa, but when the people make a shift both the leaders and the Church shift with it.
“…our woes are not caused by Christianity. I think they are caused by affluence.” Yep. Christianity has been abandoned in favor of capitalist materialism, which is fundamentally Jewish. Marx observed this in On the Jewish Question: “The Jews have emancipated themselves insofar as the Christians have become Jews… Indeed, in North America, the practical domination of Judaism over the Christian world has achieved as its unambiguous and normal expression that the preaching of the Gospel itself and the Christian ministry have become articles of trade… Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist. Money… Read more »
I don’t see that what we have in America today, in the vast majority of “Churches,” is Christianity at all. If you attend a church that uses the phrase “Judeo-Christian” or professes that the modern state of Israel is the Israel of the Bible, then you are not attending a Christian Church. More like you are attending a Satanic gathering.
Of course there are many other accepted deviations as well. You can hear them every Sunday from your woman or gay male preacher. A person trying to find a Christian Church in America today will find very few options.
I don’t have a problem with the term “Judeo-Christian,” myself. There’s nothing wrong with accentuating what we have in common, which is the old testament. Words simplify things for the very large numbers of people who don’t have a broader grasp of things.
However, I do agree with you guys that many people also confuse this and conflate the two. I’m with you guys on being against it from that angle.
Modern Judaism is based on rejection of Christianity. And Christianity itself was always a rejection of Judaism. “Judeo-Christian” is subversive nonsense.
You can probably count on the fingers of one hand who understand that Talmudic Judaism comes not from the Hebrews, but from the Pharisee sect that He was ragging on all the time. You don’t even need that many to count the number who understand the difference the Pharisees represented.
Judeo-Christian is not incorrect, strictly speaking, so long as one is speaking of Tribe of Judah. But it confuses the matter, because most people only think of Rabbinic or Talmudic Jews.
Where is the tribe of Judah in 2024? All I can find are people claiming that without any Levitical priesthood or remnants of any other tribe. Both of those existed in Jesus’ time. Revelation refers to fake Jews twice. Modern genetics tests trace most Jews to apparently the Caucasian mountains.
That’s Judeo-Christian is just total garbage. Medieval observers understood what 70AD meant for the ethnic lines of the Israelites. We advanced peoples can’t seem to get a handle on it.
Well for instance there is no “Judeo-Christ.”
There is. He is going to be inaugurated in one month.
Good point! I stand corrected.
In that context words manipulate. JudeoChristian is a modern construct. It is used by evangelical fundamentalists to brainwash non-critical thinkers into believing there exists a linkage between revelation and Daniel portending the end times and the rapture in a hysterical dispensational theory concocted by john Darby in the 1800’s.
There is also big money in it. Dallas theological seminary for example.
According to Judaism, our Lord and Savior is boiling in excrement. Judeochristian is about as sensible as christiansatanism or Judeoislamic. It’s just total bullshit.
All of the major denominations are corrupt at the national level. However, there are very good individual churches, even churches who belong to a corrupt denomination.
Certified wrong-thinker James Edwards, host of the Political Cesspool on the radio belongs to a church that left the denomination rather than expel Edwards for his wrong-think. If every church in America was like this, the churchians would be running for cover.
I grew up with tough men who still considered themselves christians. They worked hard, faithful to their wives, and built farms and communities. When they went to the movie theatre back in the 60’s they saw very good entertaining westerns like the old Clint Eastwood ones that portrayed the parson as a weak man and the uncommitted single wandering childless cowboy as the idol in the movie.
Christianity can be a masculine answer to peoples need or desire for religion if it was not continuosly subverted both inside and outside the faith.
“faithful to their wives”
I’m convinced that the vast majority of men who cheat on their wives weren’t out looking for it–it was a woman who showed interest first. Women are sexually bolder, more shameless and amoral than ever before.
This is almost certainly true of prominent/celebrity “alpha” men, who have to deal with high quality (looks wise) women throwing themselves at them constantly. They can remain faithful in the face of this onslaught 99 days out of 100, but 1 day of weakness and then they’re a “cheater.” It’s easier for the average fella to resist such temptation which, conversely, probably doesn’t happen to him much more than 1 day out of 100. Thus, among average joes who are unfaithful, I’m inclined to believe quite a few of them went looking for it.
I don’t know. Of the guys I’ve known who’ve stepped out on their wives, it was the woman who signaled their openness first. Nothing overt like, “Hey, let’s fvck!” Just more like being overly friendly and open to interaction. Brush on the arm, sending signals, etc. (I’m not talking about posting personal ads or anything like that. I’m talking everyday real life encounters.) There’s a store near my house I go to all the time. They’ve got a MILFy employee who looks a little more cleaned up than your average middle-aged retail store worker. I’m guessing she’s a retired teacher… Read more »
You’re a great example of what I was talking about. If you’re not Quasimodo, some woman, somewhere, sometime, is going to send you signals. But you have time and space to think about it, assess your options, and make a decision. And the decision you reach is on you, not on her.
Absolutely.
We’re saying the same thing in different ways, but I still wouldn’t be hitting on this woman on my own initiative. That’s what I’m talking about. I think most guys are like that. They don’t want the drama in life, but they might be flattered when the door is opened first.
Hell, every man should start dressing better from my point of view. In my burg, dirty, baggy jeans and shorts seem to be standard issue.
Regardless that the woman showed interest first. A good/strong man is expected to shun such when committed in marriage. If folks are weak, and men are often, then one takes precautions against such encounters/situations. For example, I never allow a woman into the home if my wife is not there. Obvious exceptions for family.
That there is evil in the world cannot be used to justify evil in oneself, which is sort of what you hint at.
I’m a 100% believer in the Mike Pence rule and agree with you in general. I’m just talking about what is happening in real life and why I think the wheels have fallen off. Women are bolder these days (and I’m not saying that my story is an example of that).
The battle is the same as it’s always been: Who are your people? Jews answer that question correctly: Jews The Church answers that question incorrectly: Christians. Jews are a people. Christians are club members. Club members can never compete with a people. We’re witnessing that now. Jews have conquered the commanding heights of the West quite easily because Christians don’t even know that there’s a fight going on. But Jews are running the West into the ground because they’re not built to rule over others. Even the Normans who despised the Anglo-Saxons understood that they needed to sustain their society… Read more »
Great point!!
“he West is falling apart because it can’t answer the simple question: Who are your people?”
According to the Church, the West is falling apart because it can’t find God and even attempting to follow the pesky rules that everyone hates so much. The end of the Roman empire looked like a lot of abortion and sleeping around too.
We have tried “Who are your people” in the early 20th century as social model. It led to a giant world war with a 20 year peace agreement in the middle.
Z, what do you think of general argument proposed by EMJ?
He claims the christian churches have been taken over by tinies –
https://rumble.com/v5k4dhx-emj-live-93-the-collapse-of-neocon-catholicism.html?e9s=src_v1_ucp
he has several other videos in his channel.
EMJ is a great example of the old jibe, “He tastes Jews in his sandwich.” The Church has been taken over by liberals. many think their liberalism is rooted in Scripture and the traditions of their faith, but the Church once defended slavery for the same reasons.
Question is who is Israel? Covenant or blood?
Anglos love blood. See: evolution, genetics. OT loves blood, too. Protestants read the whole Bible. Things get mixed up. Crazy ideas about the lost tribes, etc.
Kind of funny about the idealism, essentially, liberalism. Then again, compare English and American revolutions to French, German, Russian.
‘Britain’ still has a monarch, America still has guns and imperial measurements. Perhaps Anglo isn’t as radical as advertised. Supposing we’d be worse off if the continent had been predominant.
The English from personal experience are this side of reactionary. What it took to make them liberal was the slow, steady drip of what think of as anti-Christianity from Henry the VIII on.
And yes, they read their Bible (with a lot of help) and think being one of the lost tribes would be a compliment or something. That’s the anti-Christianity talking.
EMJ is intellectually dishonest and it is catching up to him. It will be interesting to see how he responds if he ever gets threatened with ex-communication over his Jew hatred, which no longer is rational and fact-based. I know which way I am betting.
I have read a few of EMJs books and found value. Ultimately though, he comes across as hating jews more than he loves Jesus.
Yes, ultimately I think he’s spent too much time with the JQ. He’s surprisingly sane though for so much time spent on it.
Trent Horn and other YouTube Jewish apologists are not the formal Church nor part of the formal teaching office. They have taken the stereotypical Jewish inclination towards advocacy, organization creation, and attention seeking and used it mostly for good in so much that they are trying to explain the Catholic faith. EMJ commentary is about self appointed Horns of the world who will insist on creating “sins” around the Jewish people when none exist. The actual Catholic Church is different organization all together. The formal Catholic Church structure is surprisingly low on Jewish converts. It also is not neo-con, even… Read more »
Liberalism has a lot to answer for but the elevation of women into positions of power will be the main cause of the collapse.
Oh c’mon, Nancy Mace seems totally stable and not at all like the ex who keyed your car.
The people who blame Christianity for what ails us also leave out the fact that the Church has been losing bloody wars for several hundred years. Yes, the Church has been a lickspittle to the desires of our demonic ruling class, but look at what happened when they were not lickspittles: Tortured to death in places as diverse as England, France, Spain, Italy, and Mexico. Even in the US, there are plenty of examples of tough, no-nonsense priests getting their brains splattered all over a wall (Birmingham in the 1920s, for one example). We know that terrorism works. And a… Read more »
I find little Christianity taking place in the modern churches of the West. The churches and the pastors are cucked, embracing liberalism in its most feral form of Progressivism. If the pastors don’t, they face the wrath of wifey and empty collection plates. After which, horrifyingly, they’d have to become real men. Reading actual Scripture — instead of embracing leftism and calling it Christianity — makes it abundantly clear that Christianity is an ELITIST religion, that never was meant to be widely popular. ‘Many are called but few are chosen’ and the repeated assurances that only a select minority enter… Read more »
“Christianity is an ELITIST religion…”
And nowhere is that more clear when people say, “But we cast out demons in your name” etc., and He says go away, He never knew them.
It’s a little sobering to think I haven’t done a whole lot of raising the dead or casting out demons or walking on water…
All religions are codifications of ancient wisdom that proved itself via the test of time. They persisted because they “worked” in the sense of enhancing the ability of a people to survive and thrive in their local environment. Christianity is the evolved mechanism of this persistence for most Caucasians, but also works for many other peoples, hence its omnipresence. And in all religions, the concept of God solves the problem of persistent belief in the face of unknowns and contradictions. When religion fails, ancient wisdom is lost, and survivability declines.
What you are describing here, Zman, is what I think of as the egalitarian ratchet effect. Basically, the core values of a society double down on themselves and intensify over time until either those values are transvalued into something else, society collapses from within or it is conquered from without. Here, Christian-derived egalitarianism has intensified on itself over time; as the historian Tom Holland has stated, the French Revolution and the Russian Revolution were still based on the “the first shall be last and the last shall be first” which derived from Christianity, as does the racial egalitarianism we are… Read more »
“Most low-church ministers sound like the tourism minister from Israel fused with the HR manager at a major corporation.” Pure Z-Man gold. When I was in high school at the end of the junior year, youth emissaries from Israel came to all of the AP classes and promoted Israel and its people as the gold standard in goodness. I suppose that is breaking down. As for Judaism, I wouldn’t underestimate it. I was in a Florida airport some time back when in the morning two Jews put on their garb and the arm wrap and the ajna eyeglass and looked… Read more »
P.S. As evidence of our spiritual bankruptcy look at this, “MAGA advocates”, big priority. We simply can’t compete with people who are a people and who have a deep conviction about who their God is, where his earthly dwelling/communion ground is, (his temple), and that securing it has primacy over all.
Our great advocates want to set up off shore Miami’s. Nice idea, but the house is on fire. Another sick White man who needs to find religion and which must strike him with terrific bolts of lightning to shake him from his stupor.
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/american-singapore-a-maga-agenda-for-puerto-rico/
Give me a break. PR has been given special status and tax breaks since I was a child. They are still a basket case of sorts (gee, I wonder why) and we want to give them more? Here’s a summary from a quick ChatGPT search: “For Individuals: 1. Act 22 (Individual Investors Act): • Offers a 100% exemption on capital gains, dividends, and interest income earned in Puerto Rico. • Designed to attract wealthy individuals to relocate to Puerto Rico. • Requires individuals to establish bona fide residency and make contributions to the local economy. For Businesses: 2. Act 20… Read more »
Properly understood, the historical importance of Christianity is that it provided the spiritual and moral bulwark that saved European Man from cultural and genetic annihilation at the hands of the eastern hordes. From Aetius to Sobieski, Crusaders were able to reconcile Wotan and Jesus, however imperfectly, and preserve their people.
This is what was lost in the so-called “Enlightenment”, but must be rediscovered if we are to survive- some combination of Aquinas and Evola, with a dash of Warhammer 40k.
Where does the obsession with Israel come from? It doesn’t fit into the proposed model.
Revelations, the Scofield Bible, the founding of Israel in 1948, an aggressive program of subversive influence on the part of Israelis after the 1967 war, and Hal Lindsey.
I must take issue with your comment that “moral justice” motivated abolitionism. The abolitionists were the sons and grandsons of New England slave traders who had made enormous fortunes in the trade and whose laundered money still forms the nucleus of vast fortunes in the Northeast to this day. Read about Brown University as one example. These hypocrites used morality to disguise the real motivators- sectional hatred, political dominance, envy, economic chauvinism, do as I say, not as I do, and phony self-righteous crusaderism. The reason the Underground Railroad ended in Canada and not New England was that free blacks… Read more »
It’s sort of like how today, the main denouncers of “white privilege,” indeed the inventors of that term, are those who benefited the most from it. So of course they would know the most about it. Often, descendants of the very people you are describing.
im reading a bio of Jefferson and he believed the tenets of the enlightenment were timeless and boundless. He was called the apostle of the enlightenment. And he was in no way a Christian. But he also didn’t seem to want America to be a busy body or a financial power but a land of farmers.
The truth of the idea that Christianity is responsible for the decline of the west is unimportant to the people pushing this narrative. What matters to them is that it is established as accepted truth. That is the real issue.
Regarding the Christian sycophants who slavishly support “muh Izruhl”, I became so incensed by the attitude among some members of my church, I simply stopped attending services. I’m sure they’re crowing their fool heads off by now. How in Jesus’ name can I receive communion from the hands of a person who is blithely ignoring the enormity of Israeli crimes against innocent civilians? These people do not WANT to know about it. But Z’s comments on the adaptability of Christianity is well taken. This, too shall pass.
“How in Jesus’ name can I receive communion from the hands of a person who is blithely ignoring the enormity of Israeli crimes against innocent civilians?”
Did He preach about all the innocent people the Roman Legion were killing? His kingdom was not of this world. Paulianity put the foot in the door of “in the world, but not of it”, which has morphed into the political mess all sides have made of the church.
“If you don’t have the same political views I do, you aren’t a real Christian.”
What if Christianity (aka 12 Tribes of Jacob/Israel and their actual descendants) were a race not a religion ? What if the Bible did not establish a religion but is the record of a specific race of people [not “jews”] and their relationship to God ? http://www.lasotell.com.au/bi/Bible's%20Theme.pdf “From this point onwards the Bible records the history of Adam and his descendants only. It does not mention any other race of people except when they come into contact with Adam and his descendants. There were plenty of other people around – otherwise why did Cain say that anyone who found him… Read more »
An Israeli geneticist conducted a study around the year 2000, that showed 97 plus percent of the DNA in Israel is Eastern European. I am told that it is now illegal to do origin DNA testing in Israel.
An excellent article and analysis. Thanks for the read!
Good lord. 75% of the Zman’s contributions are worth a semester, but this one is worth its own graduate degree.
In the New Testament book, Acts of the Apostles, which chronicles the events immediately after Jesus crucifixion, resurrection and ascension, Peter is preaching at the temple: Acts 2 41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. 42 They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. 44 And all the believers [av]were together and had all things… Read more »
Puritanism is giving Marxism a run for its money in the death count department. Given its recent cavalier attitude toward nuclear war and its proclivity to align with Israel, Puritanism may prove out to be the bloodiest ideology. And, yes, it is ideology. Christianity per se isn’t the problem, but this variant certainly is. Take out God and you get what we have now, Woke. As Southern graveyards can attest, this fanaticism has consequences.
Can I ask what you mean by Puritanism? I take it you mean it in some pejorative sense, not the beliefs themselves? I don’t see your typical Congregationalist as a warmonger, and don’t see a whole lot of influence of Congregationalists in the State Department, or anywhere in the maladministration.
“…the changes in the political order can be blamed for the revolution within Christianity.”
Arguably, the Reformation also caused changes in the political order. In other words, the causal arrow also pointed the other way. According to Will and Ariel Durant’s telling, that was the direction.