Promethean Thoughts

A popular argument in certain circles is that Christianity is to blame for the decline of the West, because it is blamed for various ills in the West. Individualism is often blamed on Christianity, because within most Christian sects, the individual has a unique relationship with God that is not dependent upon his relationship to his society, ethnic group or tribe. Another complaint is that Christianity demands openness, which invites in the sorts of elements antithetical to social solidarity.

There are many variations on this general theme and all of them have some kernel of truth to them. It is the heart of the rather silly argument behind the “woke right” nonsense promoted by crackpots like James Lindsay. He has created a new political scale where one end is any form of exclusivity, which he calls “woke” and the other end is complete openness, which he calls “classical liberalism.”  It is mostly nonsense, but it does illustrate the anti-Christian claims about liberalism.

Professional Christians do themselves no good in this regard by embracing and celebrating nation wrecking ideas like open borders, diversity, the worship of nonwhites and an obsession with Israel. Most low-church ministers sound like the tourism minister from Israel fused with the HR manager at a major corporation. Of course, the more traditional churches are in deep with open borders, often getting government contracts from people who would like to stamp out Christianity.

In the final reckoning, the Christian churches and their entrepreneurial advocates will have much to answer for over their role in the crisis of the West. The question is whether this is the logical result of Christianity, or is it a novelty that grew from the spread of liberalism, particularly the American form of it. After all, 18th century Christians were not in favor of open borders, and they certainly did not think the worship of Israel was their reason to exist.

For those looking to absolve Christianity, that is the starting point. From the conversion of Europe into the 16th century, Christianity fit neatly into and was an integral part of the feudal order that ruled Europe. The Church provided a moral framework for the secular rules, but also provided a moral authority for them. The Church was the ultimate answer to the question, “who says?” whenever it was not obvious that the king was the person with final authority in his domain.

It is only when people started to question the set of reciprocal obligations and duties that defined the European political order that we see changes in the relationship between Christians and the prevailing social order. The Protestant revolution was as much a result of the weakening political order as it was disputes over the traditions and practices of Christians. In other words, the changes in the political order can be blamed for the revolution within Christianity.

Further context is the fact that the Church was a different thing in the later Middle Ages than what it was at the end of the Roman Empire. The Christianity that evolved to flourish and survive within Rome, had to further evolve after Rome. It continued to evolve to flourish within the new feudal order that defined Europe. Once the feudal order began to collapse, the Church evolved to adapt, often with localized versions to meet localized political changes.

The same framing can be applied to America. In the New World, the old religion was free to evolve and do so under unique circumstances. The Calvinism of the Old World arrived in New England, along with Anglicanism and Presbyterianism. Soon, every Christian sect of the Old World was setting up shop in the New World, quickly evolving and splintering into new versions to meet new conditions. America was a great experiment for more than just self-government.

What we call progressivism has its roots in this Christian experiment. A century ago, progressive literature was riddled with references to Scripture. The reason for that is it had its roots in Christian movements like abolitionism, social reform movements and the Social Gospel movement. The argument against slavery that animated the Civil War were not economic or political in nature. The abolitionists were acting upon their sense of moral justice informed by their Christin faith.

The way to understand America since Gettysburg is to think of it as a religious crusade masquerading as a country. The covenantal form of nationalism that still turns up in our politics has roots in the founding the country. Northern nationalism in the Civil War, for example, was linked to America’s alleged destiny to free the world. It was not enough to celebrate self-determination. America had a duty to help all people free themselves from domination and that started with the South.

This is the error people make when trying to blame liberalism for the current crisis or blame Christianity for the liberalism. American liberalism of the type the Framers embraced was replaced by a variant that borrowed the modes of thought from Protestant Christianity but eventually left out God and Scripture. The hole of authority has been filled with vague concepts like the “tides of history” and other expression that can be replaced with “the side of the angels.”

This creates a dilemma. It is clear that Christianity in the Old World evolved to meet the challenges of the changing political order, driven by the spread of Old World liberalism, but it is also clear that the new forms of Christianity informed that liberalism, and in the case of America, created a fusion of the two. That new ideological and theological cause, dressed in the garb of reason and pragmatism, then dominated the West, at the point of gun, until we have reached this point.

In the end, blaming liberalism or Christianity is a fool’s errand. The root cause probably goes much further back. For example, universalism is only possible in a cosmology that has just one God. In a world of many gods, there are many sources of moral authority, so therefore no one can claim a single moral order. Then you have the curse of reason that was given to us by the Greeks. If there is one God and one morally correct way of living, then our reason should be able to discover it.

The good news for the Christians is that the religion has shown an ability to adapt that no other faith has managed. Judaism has survived for longer, but only as a folk religion serving a tiny minority. Christianity has survived as a majority religion, through the ups and downs of Western civilization. Despite its current condition, it will most likely adapt and once again give cause to the flourishing of Western people. The same fate probably does not await liberalism or progressivism.


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pyrrhus
pyrrhus
3 months ago

Christians were warned more than once in the Bible that they would be infiltrated by wolves in sheep’s clothing, because that was how Satan worked…The Protestant mega-churches are a perfect example, and so is the accession of women to clerical status, explicitly banned by Paul…The Bible in no way promotes open borders, quite the opposite since God created the races and the nations and threw down the Tower of Babel…Homosexual behavior was also condemned quite explicitly, and the example of Sodom and Gomorrah given….

ray
ray
Reply to  pyrrhus
3 months ago

Indeed.

God’s mandate for humanity is nationalism, while globalism is considered a luciferian plot and threat that arises and eventually conquers in the end times. Which is now, and congealing fast.

After Babel fell, the nations and the languages deliberately were divided (Deuteronomy 32:8). Globalism is reserved for the millennial reign of Christ on earth. It is forbidden to humanity until then.

Steve
Steve
Reply to  pyrrhus
3 months ago

Exactly. Over the course of several centuries, but ramping up over the last couple was a resurrection of a variant of Marcionism, which is itself a rebranding of Plato’s Timaeus. You can kind of make a case for it because of the number of times God speaks of himself in the plural. The accepted explanation is, of course, the multiplicity of aspects that full actualization (Aquinas) requires.

Anyone throwing away the Old Testament or speaking of Him as God of Love, leaving out the part about God of Justice, is falling for the honeyed words these false prophets.

Last edited 3 months ago by Steve
TempoNick
TempoNick
3 months ago

“18th century Christians … certainly did not think the worship of Israel was their reason to exist.”

Honestly, I find this Israel worship personal insulting. It’s like these people have already thrown in the towel and have anointed the Jews as our superior overlords. Have some pride in yourself and in our people, for God’s sake.

Moran ya Simba
Moran ya Simba
Reply to  TempoNick
3 months ago

Whether it is Israel, Jews or blacks, the worship of other people is a dysgenic perversion

Ostei Kozelskii
Member
Reply to  Moran ya Simba
3 months ago

And it is unique to whites.

Bilejones
Member
Reply to  Ostei Kozelskii
3 months ago

The White man’s disease: Xenophilic pathological altruism.

Pozymandias
Reply to  Ostei Kozelskii
3 months ago

The only analogous phenomenon that comes to mind in other races are those primitive tribes that thought Whites were literal gods when they first met them because their technology and clothing was so far beyond what they knew of. Perhaps the tendency of progressive Whites to worship minorities is somehow the other side of this. Modern White shitlibs have created a kind of reverse cargo cult surrounding other races. Instead of building wooden airplanes to summon back the airplane gods they adopt the crude habits of ghetto blacks or other primitive people. In this case the “cargo” is not something… Read more »

Ostei Kozelskii
Member
Reply to  Pozymandias
3 months ago

Indeed. Worshiping wogs and hating their own kind provides them absolution for phenomena such as colonialism, imperialism and slavery, which they foolishly think were uniquely visited upon non-whites by whites. That guilt complex, which in its twisted way also grants them supposed moral superiority, lies at the heart of the mutants’ psyche.

Piffle
Piffle
Reply to  TempoNick
3 months ago

Part of the issue is that the 20th century has made Americans wealthy. Israel became one of the golden calves to keep the goodies flowing.
In the US at least, for the most part, the younger and poorer you are, the less likely you see modern Israel as worship worthy.

TempoNick
TempoNick
Reply to  Piffle
3 months ago

The WASP ruling class is also stupid. I don’t think they completely appreciate the sleazy and nepotistic ways the Jews conduct business. For example, members of a very wealthy clan here were convicted of insider trading. They were like second or third cousins of whoever was on the board. Sure, they were caught, but how many others are there who weren’t? You don’t come from nothing, as 1% of the population and end up being 50% of all billionaires in this country just because God supposedly endowed you with higher IQ, which I’m also skeptical of. There’s a lot of… Read more »

Citizen of a Silly Country
Citizen of a Silly Country
Reply to  TempoNick
3 months ago

With Jews, I think that it’s a bit of luck and a bit of skill. Yeah, they’re fairly smart but explains a very small part of their massive success. Their main advantage is several behavioral. First, they are incredibly cocky on average, which gives them the balls to make huge bets – or to try huge schemes. Sometimes, it blows up, but sometimes, they win and are insanely rich. Second, they have zero respect for a society’s rules and have zero problem lying. It’s really incredible to watch. They can lie or sort of lie right to someone’s face and… Read more »

TempoNick
TempoNick
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
3 months ago

Jews are hardworking and take education seriously. I admire that about them. They’re also crooked and nepotistic as hell. I neither admire nor hate them for that. I just hate our ruling class for not understanding that.

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
Reply to  TempoNick
3 months ago

Many conservatives, maybe not you, make meritocracy their highest value and believe anyone who is smart or hardworking has a place in our country.

This is like a society that values fighting skills demanding that the great fighters from a rival society be allowed in to their society. After all, these others are great fighters.

They seem to be blind to the fact that the skills of the new arrivals may be used against them.

I guess that they assume that the new arrivals will be so moved by this openness that they will embrace their new home.

Last edited 3 months ago by LineInTheSand
Citizen of a Silly Country
Citizen of a Silly Country
Reply to  LineInTheSand
3 months ago

By conservatives, you mean white conservatives. They are fools who can’t answer nature’s most important question: Who are your people?

3g4me
3g4me
Reply to  LineInTheSand
3 months ago

Excellent, excellent analogy, and it well illustrates the problem.

Piffle
Piffle
Reply to  TempoNick
3 months ago

I didn’t respond initially because I knew that you were at the very least anti-American Jew apologist. Citizen responded better than me.

It’s quite obvious that you do admire Jews for being crooked and nepotistic. I will say this again: Go home if America does not suit. We got this.

Citizen of a Silly Country
Citizen of a Silly Country
Reply to  TempoNick
3 months ago

Yeah, I should have mentioned that they are very serious about education. And, yes, hardworking but in an oddly scheming, neurotic way

Jews are a very talented (if flawed) people. No doubt.

Like you, I neither admire them nor hate them as a whole thought I do admire and hate certain aspects about them and certain deeds that they had done. They are an opponent, indeed, by a million miles, our most important opponent. I simply view them as such.

Nick Note's Mugshot
Nick Note's Mugshot
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
3 months ago

The propensity of many White people to kick their 18 year olds out of the house to sink or swim and “pull themselves up by their bootstraps” has always been a bit harsh but made sense to some degree when Western countries were 90+ percent European descent. However, with increasing numbers Asians and Jews the rules have changed. The diverse peers of the White kids have have an extremely strong family and ethnic support network to draw upon for educational, financial, and vocational support. This is something that White kids out there on their own have difficulty competing against. And… Read more »

Citizen of a Silly Country
Citizen of a Silly Country
Reply to  Nick Note's Mugshot
3 months ago

Yep, the game has changed. Whites either tribe up or get pushed around. Simple as that.

Ostei Kozelskii
Member
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
3 months ago

Pushed around is putting it mildly.

Citizen of a Silly Country
Citizen of a Silly Country
Reply to  Ostei Kozelskii
3 months ago

Tru dat.

Piffle
Piffle
Reply to  Ostei Kozelskii
3 months ago

We are “pushed around” in part because we lack morals. EM Jones is repetitive, but he’s correct. The break down of the family and sexual mores leads to a docile and literally impotent society.

Last edited 3 months ago by Piffle
Piffle
Piffle
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
3 months ago

Edited note: I didn’t see your other thoughts down stream before I type this up. This is a summary of them. When Whites tribed up the last time, we had a decades long world war. I think we need to try something different that’s not in strictly the material realm. In any event, post WWII can be thought of only the inversion of modern attitudes that appeared around the turn of the century. “Everyone wants to be part of my tribe (really me) and can be” is just as tribalistic and suicidal as traditional tribalism gone mad of the first… Read more »

Last edited 3 months ago by Piffle
RealityRules
RealityRules
Reply to  Nick Note's Mugshot
3 months ago

This is spot on. I am sure everyone here is nodding in the affirmative from experience. Our parents throw us to the wolves. That is good when you are sink or swim in nature and grit, adventurism and high trust networking bring you to the top. When networks determine access to resources and when success depends upon credential accumulation and cognitive functioning to get those credentials, this strategy is a huge problem. Whites seem impervious to this. I like this thread because it is getting at where we are failing rather than blaming Jews. When we, at scale, combine more… Read more »

Piffle
Piffle
Reply to  RealityRules
3 months ago

 I am sick of our young growing up thinking the other people are just smarter. No. They have massive support networks that underpin their success.”

Exactly. This is where Whites have only ourselves to blame. We got selfish and lazy when it came to our own families. It was a contract, that ended at 18. Relationships don’t have end dates like that.
Even as I type this so many of the older generation is ready to invest in anyone else but their own children and grandchildren.

RealityRules
RealityRules
Reply to  Piffle
3 months ago

Yep. It is painful to have the parent that is supposed to nurture and then support you as a lifelong commitment be open to all manner of strangers.

It is a spiritual sickness and broken-ness that is at the root. We have to forgive and just be way better with the chance we have. We are doing it.

Zaphod
Zaphod
Reply to  RealityRules
3 months ago

It’s worse than that. We throw our sons to the wolves and pamper our daughters (who have their ways smoothed for them by the state, anyway). Suicidal insanity.

Pozymandias
Reply to  Zaphod
3 months ago

Another asymmetry between young men and young women is that our young women are indoctrinated to reject any man who still “lives at home”. Of course no guy rejects a girl for that reason. Actually nowadays it probably means that she’s not a total slut who bangs a different guy every week. If anything it would make her more appealing to the best men. I ran into this all the time while in college. It never made sense to me to be spending all my money on rent when I could be saving it towards a house for me and… Read more »

Ostei Kozelskii
Member
Reply to  Zaphod
3 months ago

The white father being a hard-case with his son while cossetting his precious little princess is a phenomenon that probably goes back centuries. White men can’t bear seeing their daughter’s tears, while his son’s anguish leaves him cold as a stone. Perhaps that’s as it should be. Toughened white boys up. It used to, anyway.

Zaphod
Zaphod
Reply to  Ostei Kozelskii
3 months ago

Toughening up is good.

I was thinking more about how the Boomers would pontificate about giving their daughters the best chances in life even as the State and all institutions public and private showered said daughters with opportunities and benefits denied to males and bent the legal scales in their favour.

It’s only gotten worse with Gen X parents.

I’d argue that given present realities, not spending more on helping sons to get established and not leaving them more than daughters where legacies are concerned is nigh on criminal.

Piffle
Piffle
Reply to  Nick Note's Mugshot
3 months ago

“The propensity of many White people to kick their 18 year olds out of the house to sink or swim and “pull themselves up by their bootstraps” has always been a bit harsh but made sense to some degree when Western countries were 90+ percent European descent.” Kicking kids out of the house at 18 with no support is about break down of European families thanks in part to social and economic conditions. The strains and wealth of the industrial revolution made it possible. It’s about families about a work ethic and unwilling to part with money and/or kids leaving… Read more »

Zaphod
Zaphod
Reply to  Nick Note's Mugshot
3 months ago

The 18 and Out thing has faint echoes of the Germanic journeyman years tradition. Works nicely in a homogenous rule-following population. Going up against Jews, Indians, Amy Chua’s daughter(s) with a mindset like that will get you steamrollered though.

Citizen of a Silly Country
Citizen of a Silly Country
3 months ago

The battle is the same as it’s always been: Who are your people? Jews answer that question correctly: Jews The Church answers that question incorrectly: Christians. Jews are a people. Christians are club members. Club members can never compete with a people. We’re witnessing that now. Jews have conquered the commanding heights of the West quite easily because Christians don’t even know that there’s a fight going on. But Jews are running the West into the ground because they’re not built to rule over others. Even the Normans who despised the Anglo-Saxons understood that they needed to sustain their society… Read more »

george 1
george 1
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
3 months ago

Great point!!

Piffle
Piffle
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
3 months ago

he West is falling apart because it can’t answer the simple question: Who are your people?”

According to the Church, the West is falling apart because it can’t find God and even attempting to follow the pesky rules that everyone hates so much. The end of the Roman empire looked like a lot of abortion and sleeping around too.

We have tried “Who are your people” in the early 20th century as social model. It led to a giant world war with a 20 year peace agreement in the middle.

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
Reply to  Piffle
3 months ago

Another result of the conflicts in the early 20th century is that everyone still operates according to “Who are your people” except the nominal winners of those conflicts.

“Who are your people” did not end with those conflicts.

Citizen of a Silly Country
Citizen of a Silly Country
Reply to  LineInTheSand
3 months ago

Family will never end.

I refuse to follow a faith – whether that be colorblind civic nationalism or “God doesn’t see color”-style Christianity – that doesn’t acknowledge the bond among a people.

Piffle
Piffle
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
3 months ago

Christianity insists that people have responsibility to their families first. That means not divorcing your wife when she’s old and inconvenient or treating marriage like a personal happiness contract. It means not cutting off inconvenient children. Honor thy father and mother is literally a commandment. It insists that everyone keep their pants on (and families intact) as a way to honor God. When Victor Orban speaks about protecting Hungary as a nation, he does it by saying that Hungary doesn’t matter, but she is part of God’s creation. Christianity gives the moral authority to close the borders and say “We… Read more »

Last edited 3 months ago by Piffle
Citizen of a Silly Country
Citizen of a Silly Country
Reply to  Piffle
3 months ago

Enjoy going to Church with Africans and Mestizos. Then, enjoy them as your neighbors. Then, enjoy them as your kids’ schoolmates.

We tried colorblind civic nationalism and “God doesn’t see color” for the past 50 years, and it has led to whites being on our knees begging blacks for forgiveness, to Jews running what was our country and to our lands being invaded and overrun by blacks and browns of every stripe.

As horrible as they were, WWI and WWII caused less damage to whites than what you want.

Piffle
Piffle
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
3 months ago

“As horrible as they were, WWI and WWII caused less damage to whites than what you want.” The collective Great War killed millions of Europeans. Worse, they killed many of what I think of as the cream of the crop. The alpha males that come to shape societies for the better gone out of more than one generation. We live in world so shaped by that event we can’t remember the “before” times. It’s been nothing but depression and drug use in the West since then. Yes, more tech toys, but the actual will to live has plummeted. “We tried… Read more »

Last edited 3 months ago by Piffle
Apex Predator
Apex Predator
Reply to  Piffle
3 months ago

I marvel that you keep referencing the two great brother wars (at least 3 different replies here) that purposefully snuffed a large quotient of “cream of the crop”, your own words, Europeans. Largely alpha male types as you correctly surmise. Yet, you never think to ask– Cui bono? You hang out on dissident forums and you really have no idea what -actually- caused either one of these continental conflagrations? You have –never– seen the famous newspaper headline that PRE-DATES the 2nd World War declaring, “Judea declares war on Germany”. You know nothing about who had been in control of finance… Read more »

Citizen of a Silly Country
Citizen of a Silly Country
Reply to  Piffle
3 months ago

By the way, who are your people?

And, no, Christians are not a people. Christians are various peoples who share a religion and not much else.

Piffle
Piffle
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
3 months ago

I know who my people are. It’s my at times silly secular Boomer dad. It’s my off the charts liberal sister who for many decades has a best friend that substitutes for me. It’s my now deceased Mother who was being unable to process the pressures of modernity to be a good mother. It’s my husband and children. Yes, I have Church family too and yes they are not related to me. Nothing about my social circles says it’s okay to blow off my physical family. It’s quite the opposite. There are people who want their chosen fellowship to be… Read more »

Last edited 3 months ago by Piffle
Alzaebo
Alzaebo
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
3 months ago

This exactly. We are under mimics; unfortunately, their mimicry is a broken parody of /us/. Thus we are twice misled, by mirroring a cracked mirror.

Last edited 3 months ago by Alzaebo
Dutchboy
Dutchboy
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
3 months ago

The Christians of the past dealt with the Jewish problem by forbidding them citizenship, thus preventing them from holding any public office and having influence over the state. Christians were in effect the tribe. The fly in the ointment was the greed of the Christian elite, which allowed the Jews to practice usury as long as they gave the elite lower interest rates. This led to widespread hatred of Jews and their expulsion when the elite could no longer repay the loans.

Moran ya Simba
Moran ya Simba
3 months ago

Not myself much of a Christian but our woes are not caused by Christianity. I think they are caused by affluence, the soft life and the resulting crash in testosterone levels. Rome, golden age Arabia, ancient Greece, ancient India, ancient China and the antecs all went through this cycle of softness leading to collapse. When young boys stop washing in cold water in the morning, you’re over the hill. Glubb remains the best brief intro to this.

Citizen of a Silly Country
Citizen of a Silly Country
Reply to  Moran ya Simba
3 months ago

Yeah, a lot of this is just the natural life cycle of an empire. When times get hard, watch whites tribe up and get tough. The Church will follow that change and find lots of scripture to give it moral authority.

The Church and secular rulers have a symbiotic relationship, but, ultimately, it’s the secular rulers who lead the way.

Piffle
Piffle
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
3 months ago

The secular rulers lead the way in the state. The Church is impacted by living in the world. It does have to adapt to the civil conditions in which it finds itself. However, if I can borrow a phrase, the Kingdom they have their eyes on is not of this world. Stable societies are the positive leftovers of a society with faith. They are not the direct goal of it.

Citizen of a Silly Country
Citizen of a Silly Country
Reply to  Piffle
3 months ago

I agree with that. A society without faith (or with a false faith) will die. The Church influences leaders and vice versa, but when the people make a shift both the leaders and the Church shift with it.

Xman
Xman
Reply to  Moran ya Simba
3 months ago

“…our woes are not caused by Christianity. I think they are caused by affluence.” Yep. Christianity has been abandoned in favor of capitalist materialism, which is fundamentally Jewish. Marx observed this in On the Jewish Question: “The Jews have emancipated themselves insofar as the Christians have become Jews… Indeed, in North America, the practical domination of Judaism over the Christian world has achieved as its unambiguous and normal expression that the preaching of the Gospel itself and the Christian ministry have become articles of trade… Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist. Money… Read more »

Last edited 3 months ago by Xman
Ostei Kozelskii
Member
Reply to  Xman
3 months ago

The Jews dominate capitalism, and of course, they dominated Marxist-Leninist communism. Praytell! Is there any sphere they do not control?!

Xman
Xman
Reply to  Ostei Kozelskii
3 months ago

Both capitalism and communism are modern constructs of artificial, materialist, industrial society. They are in fundamental agreement that materialism governs Man, they merely differ as to how to manufacture and distribute material goods. Both are progressive ideologies which assume that at some point in the future, Man will be sated by the production of artificial material goods. Christianity is a premodern, pre-industrial ethos that attempts to deal with the existential facts of human suffering, death and impotence when confronted by the overwhelming power of Nature and Nature’s God. By contrast the Jewish religion is a worldly religion, the summum bonum… Read more »

Ostei Kozelskii
Member
Reply to  Xman
3 months ago

Good answer. However, I think Max Weber was correct in bowling out the “Protestant work ethic,” which is ostensibley motivated by predestinarian doctrine and the belief that material prosperity suggested strongly that one was part of the elect. At its root, Christianity may be less compatible with materialism than Judaism, but secondary developments have narrowed that disparity.

Piffle
Piffle
Reply to  Ostei Kozelskii
3 months ago

From my Catholic POV, particularly Calvinism has strong parallels with Judaism, both culturally and philosophically. Calvinism has that same “God loves me bestest” about it as modern Judaism. For historical proof, I’d offer the observation that many to most of the Jews who fled Catholic Spain converted within two generations to the Calvinism they found in the Netherlands. Other branches of Protestantism are much closer to Catholicism. However, those groups are much more easily influenced by Calvinism than Catholicism, particularly in place like the US. In other words, I see Christianity on a continuum from Catholicism to an opposite extreme… Read more »

David O'Connell
Reply to  Piffle
3 months ago

Our church is a Calvinist sort of Baptist and we do not preach a “God loves me best” message. We preach that the process of being saved is not a “all of sudden you’re God’s bestie” sort of thing, but a lifelong process involving a lot of struggle with a lot of sin. We would wonder about the sort of person who paints a pretty “God loves me bestest” picture about themselves as they wrestle, or even backslide big time into sin and wonder if they ever truly gave themselves over to God in the first place. We also view… Read more »

Piffle
Piffle
Reply to  Ostei Kozelskii
3 months ago

Modernly in a global economy, no unfortunately. I find that even Popes have to bend the knee occasionally. Early 20th century observers were a pox on both houses sort of opinion.
Jews own the factories and the news outlets,etc.

Last edited 3 months ago by Piffle
Zaphod
Zaphod
Reply to  Ostei Kozelskii
3 months ago

The heliosphere. But they’ll gladly sell you a timeshare there.

Steve
Steve
Reply to  Xman
3 months ago

I take everything that lamebrain said with less than a grain of salt. As a far better mind than his put it,

marxism is a religion for the useless, damaged, and uncompetitive. it provides pandering pretext to play the jihadi and to justify going around taking that which belongs to others by vilifying virtue, merit, achievement, freedom, and flourishing and making it seem unfair that such things result in success and satisfaction.”
–el gato malo

If Marx said anything of any value, it was completely by accident. He’s not even “stopped clock” right.

Xman
Xman
Reply to  Steve
3 months ago

I am not a Marxist, but I believe it is incorrect to be completely dismissive of him. He was very well-read in the Western canon of philosophy, and very insightful. His main contribution was to ask what the purpose of the Hegelian dialectic and Western “progress” is. I am not convinced that either of these questions have been adequately answered, and further I posit that in its own way “capitalism” can be just as dystopian as “communism” was. I think Marx’s teleology was wrong, I do not believe that there will be a borderless global utopia when the proletariat rises… Read more »

Dutchboy
Dutchboy
Reply to  Xman
3 months ago

G.K. Chesterton compared a socialist to a man who had an ambition to make sure all children got enough milk to drink. He quickly discovered that ensuring that was hard to do, so he then advocated the abolition of milk.

Jeffrey Zoar
Jeffrey Zoar
Reply to  Moran ya Simba
3 months ago

If civilizational decline is the price of hot running water, I’ll take it

george 1
george 1
3 months ago

I don’t see that what we have in America today, in the vast majority of “Churches,” is Christianity at all. If you attend a church that uses the phrase “Judeo-Christian” or professes that the modern state of Israel is the Israel of the Bible, then you are not attending a Christian Church. More like you are attending a Satanic gathering.

Of course there are many other accepted deviations as well. You can hear them every Sunday from your woman or gay male preacher. A person trying to find a Christian Church in America today will find very few options.

TempoNick
TempoNick
Reply to  george 1
3 months ago

I don’t have a problem with the term “Judeo-Christian,” myself. There’s nothing wrong with accentuating what we have in common, which is the old testament. Words simplify things for the very large numbers of people who don’t have a broader grasp of things.

However, I do agree with you guys that many people also confuse this and conflate the two. I’m with you guys on being against it from that angle.

Hun
Hun
Reply to  TempoNick
3 months ago

Modern Judaism is based on rejection of Christianity. And Christianity itself was always a rejection of Judaism. “Judeo-Christian” is subversive nonsense.

Steve
Steve
Reply to  Hun
3 months ago

You can probably count on the fingers of one hand who understand that Talmudic Judaism comes not from the Hebrews, but from the Pharisee sect that He was ragging on all the time. You don’t even need that many to count the number who understand the difference the Pharisees represented.

Judeo-Christian is not incorrect, strictly speaking, so long as one is speaking of Tribe of Judah. But it confuses the matter, because most people only think of Rabbinic or Talmudic Jews.

Piffle
Piffle
Reply to  Steve
3 months ago

Where is the tribe of Judah in 2024? All I can find are people claiming that without any Levitical priesthood or remnants of any other tribe. Both of those existed in Jesus’ time. Revelation refers to fake Jews twice. Modern genetics tests trace most Jews to apparently the Caucasian mountains.

That’s Judeo-Christian is just total garbage. Medieval observers understood what 70AD meant for the ethnic lines of the Israelites. We advanced peoples can’t seem to get a handle on it.

Last edited 3 months ago by Piffle
Steve
Steve
Reply to  Piffle
3 months ago

Where is the tribe of Judah in 2024?”

Completely irrelevant. It’s exactly the same as “refuting” Aristotle by pointing out he died more than two millennia ago.

The ideas of the tribe of Judah exist independent of whether there are any living representatives of that tribe.

Hun
Hun
Reply to  Steve
3 months ago

In Talmud?

Piffle
Piffle
Reply to  Steve
3 months ago

“The ideas of the tribe of Judah exist independent of whether there are any living representatives of that tribe.”

The tribe of Judah was only one 12 (13 really) of the Israelites. The OT is the story of the Israelite nation. It’s the ideas of the Israelites that matter. Judah wasn’t even the priest tribe of them. It’s the mixing up of modern Jews and an ancient and now gone nation that gets moderns into trouble.

Last edited 3 months ago by Piffle
george 1
george 1
Reply to  TempoNick
3 months ago

Well for instance there is no “Judeo-Christ.”

Hun
Hun
Reply to  george 1
3 months ago

There is. He is going to be inaugurated in one month.

george 1
george 1
Reply to  Hun
3 months ago

Good point! I stand corrected.

Bloated Boomer
Bloated Boomer
Reply to  Hun
3 months ago

This actually made me lol IRL, so thanks for that. Made my day.

Ivan
Ivan
Reply to  TempoNick
3 months ago

In that context words manipulate. JudeoChristian is a modern construct. It is used by evangelical fundamentalists to brainwash non-critical thinkers into believing there exists a linkage between revelation and Daniel portending the end times and the rapture in a hysterical dispensational theory concocted by john Darby in the 1800’s.

There is also big money in it. Dallas theological seminary for example.

c matt
c matt
Reply to  Ivan
3 months ago

Bigger money is in prosperity gospel – just ask Joel Oilsteen.

Tars Tarkas
Member
Reply to  TempoNick
3 months ago

According to Judaism, our Lord and Savior is boiling in excrement. Judeochristian is about as sensible as christiansatanism or Judeoislamic. It’s just total bullshit.

c matt
c matt
Reply to  TempoNick
3 months ago

Judeo-Christian is the exact type of modernist subversion that St. Pius X warned about. It takes words with one meaning, and then gives them another, practically opposite meaning. As pointed out, “Judeo” and “Christian” are mutually exclusive. But by using “Judeo-Christian” they try to foster some sort of commonality, if not communion. “Elder brothers in the faith” is another – no, our “Elder brothers in the faith” became the first Christians.

Scot Irish
Scot Irish
Reply to  TempoNick
3 months ago

You sound like Ben Shapiro.

Tars Tarkas
Member
Reply to  george 1
3 months ago

All of the major denominations are corrupt at the national level. However, there are very good individual churches, even churches who belong to a corrupt denomination.

Certified wrong-thinker James Edwards, host of the Political Cesspool on the radio belongs to a church that left the denomination rather than expel Edwards for his wrong-think. If every church in America was like this, the churchians would be running for cover.

Steve
Steve
Reply to  Tars Tarkas
3 months ago

There are not many churches in my neck of the woods, but when the town council decided to honor the faggotry in June, the church I attend (though will not join) was the only one to object, formally or informally. All the rest were either corrupt or too cowardly.

G Lordon Giddy
G Lordon Giddy
3 months ago

I grew up with tough men who still considered themselves christians. They worked hard, faithful to their wives, and built farms and communities. When they went to the movie theatre back in the 60’s they saw very good entertaining westerns like the old Clint Eastwood ones that portrayed the parson as a weak man and the uncommitted single wandering childless cowboy as the idol in the movie.
Christianity can be a masculine answer to peoples need or desire for religion if it was not continuosly subverted both inside and outside the faith.

TempoNick
TempoNick
Reply to  G Lordon Giddy
3 months ago

“faithful to their wives”

I’m convinced that the vast majority of men who cheat on their wives weren’t out looking for it–it was a woman who showed interest first. Women are sexually bolder, more shameless and amoral than ever before.

Jeffrey Zoar
Jeffrey Zoar
Reply to  TempoNick
3 months ago

This is almost certainly true of prominent/celebrity “alpha” men, who have to deal with high quality (looks wise) women throwing themselves at them constantly. They can remain faithful in the face of this onslaught 99 days out of 100, but 1 day of weakness and then they’re a “cheater.” It’s easier for the average fella to resist such temptation which, conversely, probably doesn’t happen to him much more than 1 day out of 100. Thus, among average joes who are unfaithful, I’m inclined to believe quite a few of them went looking for it.

TempoNick
TempoNick
Reply to  Jeffrey Zoar
3 months ago

I don’t know. Of the guys I’ve known who’ve stepped out on their wives, it was the woman who signaled their openness first. Nothing overt like, “Hey, let’s fvck!” Just more like being overly friendly and open to interaction. Brush on the arm, sending signals, etc. (I’m not talking about posting personal ads or anything like that. I’m talking everyday real life encounters.) There’s a store near my house I go to all the time. They’ve got a MILFy employee who looks a little more cleaned up than your average middle-aged retail store worker. I’m guessing she’s a retired teacher… Read more »

Last edited 3 months ago by TempoNick
Jeffrey Zoar
Jeffrey Zoar
Reply to  TempoNick
3 months ago

You’re a great example of what I was talking about. If you’re not Quasimodo, some woman, somewhere, sometime, is going to send you signals. But you have time and space to think about it, assess your options, and make a decision. And the decision you reach is on you, not on her.

TempoNick
TempoNick
Reply to  Jeffrey Zoar
3 months ago

Absolutely.

TempoNick
TempoNick
Reply to  Jeffrey Zoar
3 months ago

We’re saying the same thing in different ways, but I still wouldn’t be hitting on this woman on my own initiative. That’s what I’m talking about. I think most guys are like that. They don’t want the drama in life, but they might be flattered when the door is opened first.

Last edited 3 months ago by TempoNick
Eloi
Eloi
Reply to  Jeffrey Zoar
3 months ago

You know, it is almost like there are several sections of the Bible that deals with this concept…

Lakelander
Lakelander
Reply to  Jeffrey Zoar
3 months ago

For those of us on the spectrum, we can’t read those signals and if they make it blatantly obvious:

“Oh, she’s just being nice!”

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  TempoNick
3 months ago

Hell, every man should start dressing better from my point of view. In my burg, dirty, baggy jeans and shorts seem to be standard issue.

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  TempoNick
3 months ago

Regardless that the woman showed interest first. A good/strong man is expected to shun such when committed in marriage. If folks are weak, and men are often, then one takes precautions against such encounters/situations. For example, I never allow a woman into the home if my wife is not there. Obvious exceptions for family.

That there is evil in the world cannot be used to justify evil in oneself, which is sort of what you hint at.

TempoNick
TempoNick
Reply to  Compsci
3 months ago

I’m a 100% believer in the Mike Pence rule and agree with you in general. I’m just talking about what is happening in real life and why I think the wheels have fallen off. Women are bolder these days (and I’m not saying that my story is an example of that).

Alzaebo
Alzaebo
Reply to  Compsci
3 months ago

Accept it with good grace as flattery, and move along your day.

Xman
Xman
Reply to  Compsci
3 months ago

Eh. I think what we need in this society is a bit more misogyny. Unless you are a high-school kid, a piece of ass is not the end-all and be-all of the universe. They’re only putting out because they want something — attention, money, excitement, status, whatever. Usually it’s not worth all the bullshit and drama she is going to subject you to sooner or later. As they say, “The fuckin’ you get ain’t worth the fuckin’ you get.” Allowing women to lead you around with pussy is like Gulliver getting hogtied by the Lilliputians. Great and accomplished men are… Read more »

Last edited 3 months ago by Xman
Steve
Steve
Reply to  Compsci
3 months ago

A good/strong man is expected to shun such when committed in marriage.”

Yep. If a man puts that little value on his promises, neither should anyone else.

3g4me
3g4me
Reply to  TempoNick
3 months ago

Anyone can be tempted – that’s one of a multitude of reasons that schools, offices, the military, etc. were sexually segregated when girls/women were first permitted entry. If a guy spends most of his office hours working and talking with a woman (secretary, team member, etc.) while his wife is focused on her own job and office politics, or the kids and family life to the exclusion of the marital bond (a mistake MANY women make), then it’s natural for a bond to develop. Same if he’s traveling a lot. But in the end, women have the right and responsibility… Read more »

TempoNick
TempoNick
Reply to  3g4me
3 months ago

100%

mikebravo
mikebravo
3 months ago

Liberalism has a lot to answer for but the elevation of women into positions of power will be the main cause of the collapse.

Valley Lurker
Reply to  mikebravo
3 months ago

Oh c’mon, Nancy Mace seems totally stable and not at all like the ex who keyed your car.

Alzaebo
Alzaebo
Reply to  mikebravo
3 months ago

It is not that women are a special evil, and men a special virtue; no, it is that such leadership now is deigned to ‘win’ through submission, rather than through strength.

Last edited 3 months ago by Alzaebo
btp
Member
3 months ago

The people who blame Christianity for what ails us also leave out the fact that the Church has been losing bloody wars for several hundred years. Yes, the Church has been a lickspittle to the desires of our demonic ruling class, but look at what happened when they were not lickspittles: Tortured to death in places as diverse as England, France, Spain, Italy, and Mexico. Even in the US, there are plenty of examples of tough, no-nonsense priests getting their brains splattered all over a wall (Birmingham in the 1920s, for one example). We know that terrorism works. And a… Read more »

Vizzini
Member
3 months ago

In the New Testament book, Acts of the Apostles, which chronicles the events immediately after Jesus crucifixion, resurrection and ascension, Peter is preaching at the temple: Acts 2 41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.  42 They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. 44 And all the believers [av]were together and had all things… Read more »

S-Doc
S-Doc
Member
3 months ago

I must take issue with your comment that “moral justice” motivated abolitionism. The abolitionists were the sons and grandsons of New England slave traders who had made enormous fortunes in the trade and whose laundered money still forms the nucleus of vast fortunes in the Northeast to this day. Read about Brown University as one example. These hypocrites used morality to disguise the real motivators- sectional hatred, political dominance, envy, economic chauvinism, do as I say, not as I do, and phony self-righteous crusaderism. The reason the Underground Railroad ended in Canada and not New England was that free blacks… Read more »

Jeffrey Zoar
Jeffrey Zoar
Reply to  S-Doc
3 months ago

It’s sort of like how today, the main denouncers of “white privilege,” indeed the inventors of that term, are those who benefited the most from it. So of course they would know the most about it. Often, descendants of the very people you are describing.

Steve
Steve
Reply to  S-Doc
3 months ago

Dunno. I think the Methodists, Baptists and Quakers were acting on principle. The Radical Republicans and their ilk largely fit your description, though.

And the Underground Railroad is a bit more complicated. It’s true that blacks were not exactly welcomed, but the primary reason to end in Canada was that the Fugitive Slave Act did not apply there. Escaped slave or not, there was a lot of money to be made capturing blacks and sending them South.

Anon
Anon
3 months ago

Z, what do you think of general argument proposed by EMJ?

He claims the christian churches have been taken over by tinies –

https://rumble.com/v5k4dhx-emj-live-93-the-collapse-of-neocon-catholicism.html?e9s=src_v1_ucp

he has several other videos in his channel.

Paintersforms
Paintersforms
Reply to  thezman
3 months ago

Question is who is Israel? Covenant or blood?

Anglos love blood. See: evolution, genetics. OT loves blood, too. Protestants read the whole Bible. Things get mixed up. Crazy ideas about the lost tribes, etc.

Kind of funny about the idealism, essentially, liberalism. Then again, compare English and American revolutions to French, German, Russian.

‘Britain’ still has a monarch, America still has guns and imperial measurements. Perhaps Anglo isn’t as radical as advertised. Supposing we’d be worse off if the continent had been predominant.

Piffle
Piffle
Reply to  Paintersforms
3 months ago

The English from personal experience are this side of reactionary. What it took to make them liberal was the slow, steady drip of what think of as anti-Christianity from Henry the VIII on.
And yes, they read their Bible (with a lot of help) and think being one of the lost tribes would be a compliment or something. That’s the anti-Christianity talking.

Paintersforms
Paintersforms
Reply to  Piffle
3 months ago

Maybe anti-Christianity, maybe pre-Christianity. Still a lot of pagan. St. Augustine vs. King Arthur, or something like that. Sort of a reaction against Christianity as the Celtic stuff faded, resulting in a split from Rome, the Puritans, then a reaction against the Puritans resulting in a rediscovery of the pre-Christian myths and legends during the Enlightenment to present day.

And maybe, like Z seems to be saying, another swing back towards Christianity to come.

Interesting nation. Germanic component typically muted, in spite of massive influence. Why is that often the case? Anyway, idk, rambling.

Hemid
Hemid
Reply to  thezman
3 months ago

He’s far more anti-white than antisemitic.

His anti-whiteness is rhetorically Christian—the Zimbabwean convert who can’t read the Bible (machete-ing your raped daughter for disposal) as earthly superior to the agnostic Dane (who rejects the former’s claim to Christian Denmark)—but the specific version of it he embraces was invented by a modern Jew (Ignatiev), and his arguments default to the “Talmudic,” semantic trivia and smugness.

If EMJ’s antisemitism is an extremely convoluted disgust with himself, he’s right to be consumed by it.

Paintersforms
Paintersforms
Reply to  Hemid
3 months ago

I think it’s the Logos thing. He’s pretty anthropologically old school. Talking about French being the language instead of genes recently, for instance. That line of thinking can lead to PoMo, if I understand PoMo lol. Seems like he’s trending that way, so yes, what you’re saying makes sense.

I think there’s something to be said about OT/NT along the blood/language line. Maybe even Jew/Christian, frankly.

Last edited 3 months ago by Paintersforms
Nooneimportant
Nooneimportant
Reply to  thezman
3 months ago

You say he he sees Jews in his sandwiches, but the three primary authors of the most politically significant document of Vatican II, Nostra Aetate, were all converso jew priests, and you don’t have to take my word for it. Here is some Brit Jesuit exalting in it:
https://web.archive.org/web/20191101205523/https://www.jesuit.org.uk/articles/nostra-aetate-%E2%80%93-moral-heart-second-vatican-council
I see jews in “my” Vatican II. But it’s all just an odd coincidence, right big-brained Mr. Z?

Jack Dobson
Jack Dobson
Reply to  Anon
3 months ago

EMJ is intellectually dishonest and it is catching up to him. It will be interesting to see how he responds if he ever gets threatened with ex-communication over his Jew hatred, which no longer is rational and fact-based. I know which way I am betting.

David Wright
Member
Reply to  Anon
3 months ago

I have read a few of EMJs books and found value. Ultimately though, he comes across as hating jews more than he loves Jesus.

Piffle
Piffle
Reply to  David Wright
3 months ago

Yes, ultimately I think he’s spent too much time with the JQ. He’s surprisingly sane though for so much time spent on it.

Alzaebo
Alzaebo
Reply to  David Wright
3 months ago

You can run, or you can attack. Heaven is not the problem; Hell is the problem for which white intelligence was made to confront.

I don’t know who EMJ is, but this is why I’m not a spiritualist seeking to uplift others; either to heal the infection or to kill it is a cure.

Having reviewed Holodomor and Gulag details, I am in a murderous mood; we will go from mammon-worshippers to muslim conquest to the hideous Reign whose full horror was manifested, and lives with us still in subterranean industries. Satan can WIN, this must not be allowed.

Last edited 3 months ago by Alzaebo
Piffle
Piffle
Reply to  Alzaebo
3 months ago

EM Jones is a open and serious Catholic who has written numbers of works on the history of the Jews, WWII, Holodomor, and the like. The open Catholicism is part of the package. However, he is not an apologist for the faith or a religious leader. I personally find his repetition fatiguing while finding him correct on all points that he has researched/is invested in. The bottom line from EMJ is that the Jews are not the friends of Christians, they will push open sexual degeneracy that will allow political control of the masses. And I was serious that EMJ… Read more »

Last edited 3 months ago by Piffle
Piffle
Piffle
Reply to  Anon
3 months ago

Trent Horn and other YouTube Jewish apologists are not the formal Church nor part of the formal teaching office. They have taken the stereotypical Jewish inclination towards advocacy, organization creation, and attention seeking and used it mostly for good in so much that they are trying to explain the Catholic faith. EMJ commentary is about self appointed Horns of the world who will insist on creating “sins” around the Jewish people when none exist. The actual Catholic Church is different organization all together. The formal Catholic Church structure is surprisingly low on Jewish converts. It also is not neo-con, even… Read more »

Last edited 3 months ago by Piffle
Götterdamn-it-all
Götterdamn-it-all
3 months ago

Regarding the Christian sycophants who slavishly support “muh Izruhl”, I became so incensed by the attitude among some members of my church, I simply stopped attending services. I’m sure they’re crowing their fool heads off by now. How in Jesus’ name can I receive communion from the hands of a person who is blithely ignoring the enormity of Israeli crimes against innocent civilians? These people do not WANT to know about it. But Z’s comments on the adaptability of Christianity is well taken. This, too shall pass.

Steve
Steve
Reply to  Götterdamn-it-all
3 months ago

“How in Jesus’ name can I receive communion from the hands of a person who is blithely ignoring the enormity of Israeli crimes against innocent civilians?”

Did He preach about all the innocent people the Roman Legion were killing? His kingdom was not of this world. Paulianity put the foot in the door of “in the world, but not of it”, which has morphed into the political mess all sides have made of the church.

“If you don’t have the same political views I do, you aren’t a real Christian.”

Last edited 3 months ago by Steve
TomA
TomA
3 months ago

All religions are codifications of ancient wisdom that proved itself via the test of time. They persisted because they “worked” in the sense of enhancing the ability of a people to survive and thrive in their local environment. Christianity is the evolved mechanism of this persistence for most Caucasians, but also works for many other peoples, hence its omnipresence. And in all religions, the concept of God solves the problem of persistent belief in the face of unknowns and contradictions. When religion fails, ancient wisdom is lost, and survivability declines.

Alzaebo
Alzaebo
Reply to  TomA
3 months ago

Excellently, marvelously put- but the unspoken acknowledgment of others is that when speaking of God, they are thinking only as God relates to their people.

In other words, they are thinking of their God; other peoples’ fate is not their concern.

The Enlightenment swallowed the poison M&M of the Bronze Age propaganda, that another people’s God was the same as the Creator; by legalistic sleight, those supremacists sought to argue that since their God was the highest above all others, bad logic deduces that the two must be the same, and we fell for it.

Last edited 3 months ago by Alzaebo
Ostei Kozelskii
Member
3 months ago

What is the ur-source of today’s sorrows? Who the hell knows? One can go as far back in history as one wishes to descry the wellspring. Richard Weaver pinned the blame on William of Ockham’s nominalism. I would be more inclined to cite Protagoras’ relativism (“Man is the measure of all things.”), which prefigured baneful poststructuralism by over 2,000 years. But the farther back in time one ventures, the more tenuous the thread. The facts are that Leftism as we know it was born in the French Revolution’s radical iconoclasm, and the New Left anti-white racism in the second half… Read more »

ray
ray
3 months ago

I find little Christianity taking place in the modern churches of the West. The churches and the pastors are cucked, embracing liberalism in its most feral form of Progressivism. If the pastors don’t, they face the wrath of wifey and empty collection plates. After which, horrifyingly, they’d have to become real men. Reading actual Scripture — instead of embracing leftism and calling it Christianity — makes it abundantly clear that Christianity is an ELITIST religion, that never was meant to be widely popular. ‘Many are called but few are chosen’ and the repeated assurances that only a select minority enter… Read more »

Steve
Steve
Reply to  ray
3 months ago

Christianity is an ELITIST religion…”

And nowhere is that more clear when people say, “But we cast out demons in your name” etc., and He says go away, He never knew them.

It’s a little sobering to think I haven’t done a whole lot of raising the dead or casting out demons or walking on water…

terranigma
terranigma
3 months ago

The Promethean view misses two important factors. One is war in all its ways. If you take Christianity seriously, you have to accept that there is an Adversary. The Gnostic Heresy from the first century is a prime, real world example of that Adversary in action. It is also an early example of a narrative used to warp perception, and in a way that fits what Christianity says about him. Anne Hutchinson is another historical example of the propaganda side of the war arriving in America all the way back in 1631. The other factor is that people create or… Read more »

Jack Dobson
Jack Dobson
3 months ago

Puritanism is giving Marxism a run for its money in the death count department. Given its recent cavalier attitude toward nuclear war and its proclivity to align with Israel, Puritanism may prove out to be the bloodiest ideology. And, yes, it is ideology. Christianity per se isn’t the problem, but this variant certainly is. Take out God and you get what we have now, Woke. As Southern graveyards can attest, this fanaticism has consequences.

Steve
Steve
Reply to  Jack Dobson
3 months ago

Can I ask what you mean by Puritanism? I take it you mean it in some pejorative sense, not the beliefs themselves? I don’t see your typical Congregationalist as a warmonger, and don’t see a whole lot of influence of Congregationalists in the State Department, or anywhere in the maladministration.

Jack Dobson
Jack Dobson
Reply to  Steve
3 months ago

It is a pejorative for moral fanaticism and crusades that originally manifested in many of England’s and shortly thereafter New England’s churches. As the name implies, Puritanism went beyond a reform movement into a crusade to rid the Protestant churches of what was seen as residual Catholicism and even ol’ Scratch’s hidden hand. Puritanism is totally secular now but the fanaticism and impulse remains the same. Its stated goal is to cleanse and obviously to purify. Genital mutilation of children followed on from witch burning. It is a pose more than a faith and that was the case in a… Read more »

Steve
Steve
Reply to  Jack Dobson
3 months ago

Hardly surprising that the establishment derided dissidents, is it?

Weird that they were so hated for “prudery” when they opposed not sex, but sex outside of marriage. The rest of the church was just fine with infidelity; indeed, absolution was good for the offering plate.

I’m guessing genital mutilation is circumcision? Didn’t know that was part of Puritanism. I’ve only ever read about their religious views and how it was treated by TPTB.

kerdasi amaq
kerdasi amaq
3 months ago

The truth of the idea that Christianity is responsible for the decline of the west is unimportant to the people pushing this narrative. What matters to them is that it is established as accepted truth. That is the real issue.

Hun
Hun
3 months ago

Where does the obsession with Israel come from? It doesn’t fit into the proposed model.

Vegetius
Vegetius
Reply to  Hun
3 months ago

Revelations, the Scofield Bible, the founding of Israel in 1948, an aggressive program of subversive influence on the part of Israelis after the 1967 war, and Hal Lindsey.

c matt
c matt
Reply to  Vegetius
3 months ago

Don’t forget that other guy . . . Hoagie? . . . Higgee? . . . Hagee!

Alzaebo
Alzaebo
Reply to  Vegetius
3 months ago

A hard-right Christian pastor said the first Scofield Bible was commercially produced in 1913, I thought it was introduced much earlier?

He held up a big, thick 1905 family Bible, the kind with births, deaths, marriages, lineage in it, like most families used to have in their home. Then he compared that to the smaller Scofield Concordance Bible, and said it came out in 1913, which is a most auspicious year.

Last edited 3 months ago by Alzaebo
Steve
Steve
Reply to  Alzaebo
3 months ago

Pretty sure it was a little before that but not by a whole lot.

Many of the ideas precede Scofield. Pre-trib rapture and dispensationalism was being preached by Darby a decade or so before the War Against the States.

Piffle
Piffle
Reply to  Hun
3 months ago

If you mean obsession by the governing elites, that one is simple. They need to make the Big Lie real. God’s people will be in ownership of God’s land to have it all not be a grand LARP.

Hun
Hun
Reply to  Piffle
3 months ago

There are plenty of Christians, especially in the US, who are obsessed with Israel.

Hokkoda
Member
3 months ago

“The Church provided a moral framework for the secular rules, but also provided a moral authority for them.” And then, people started abusing that moral authority leading to revolution. The same is happening today with our Marxist Pope and his obsession with putting God in the back of the progressive’s agenda bus. America has squandered its post-war moral authority after attracting sociopaths who abused their moral authority leading to the current revolution. Governments collapse in Europe, and Canada might be next, for the same reason. Christianity will soldier on because its core principles are eternal. Thought the actors change, the… Read more »

My Comment
My Comment
3 months ago

The switch from religious extremism shifting from Christianity to Wokism and Zionism has been encouraged by the Jews but it has been wholeheartedly embraced by white women, particularly single ones. Traditional religions are patriarchal. They involve trying to be a better person, reading religious texts and debating their meaning. Those are all things many women hate. They don’t want to perform. They want to be loved as is. They don’t want to have to read and study old texts unless they get gold stars and a grade for doing so. They definitely don’t want people to be able disagree with… Read more »

Hi-ya!
Hi-ya!
3 months ago

The way to understand America since Gettysburg is to think of it as a religious crusade masquerading as a country

im reading a bio of Jefferson and he believed the tenets of the enlightenment were timeless and boundless. He was called the apostle of the enlightenment. And he was in no way a Christian. But he also didn’t seem to want America to be a busy body or a financial power but a land of farmers.

Neoliberal Feudalism
Neoliberal Feudalism
3 months ago

What you are describing here, Zman, is what I think of as the egalitarian ratchet effect. Basically, the core values of a society double down on themselves and intensify over time until either those values are transvalued into something else, society collapses from within or it is conquered from without. Here, Christian-derived egalitarianism has intensified on itself over time; as the historian Tom Holland has stated, the French Revolution and the Russian Revolution were still based on the “the first shall be last and the last shall be first” which derived from Christianity, as does the racial egalitarianism we are… Read more »

Guest
Guest
Reply to  Neoliberal Feudalism
3 months ago

Utter nonsense. The French revolution was explicitly anti-Christian (or at least anti-Catholic), and the Russian revolution was nearly entirely Jewish and anti-Christian.

Dutchboy
Dutchboy
3 months ago

Not only does Catholicism forbid the degeneracies promoted by our overlords, the Church has always been patriarchal and hierarchical, also anathema to our overlords. The whole liberal project to separate religion from public life and invest almost total power in the secular state is intrinsically anti-Christian and has been disastrous for the societies that have implemented it.

Piffle
Piffle
3 months ago

An excellent article and analysis. Thanks for the read!

Gauss
Gauss
3 months ago

“…the changes in the political order can be blamed for the revolution within Christianity.”

Arguably, the Reformation also caused changes in the political order. In other words, the causal arrow also pointed the other way. According to Will and Ariel Durant’s telling, that was the direction.

RealityRules
RealityRules
3 months ago

“Most low-church ministers sound like the tourism minister from Israel fused with the HR manager at a major corporation.” Pure Z-Man gold. When I was in high school at the end of the junior year, youth emissaries from Israel came to all of the AP classes and promoted Israel and its people as the gold standard in goodness. I suppose that is breaking down. As for Judaism, I wouldn’t underestimate it. I was in a Florida airport some time back when in the morning two Jews put on their garb and the arm wrap and the ajna eyeglass and looked… Read more »

RealityRules
RealityRules
Reply to  RealityRules
3 months ago

P.S. As evidence of our spiritual bankruptcy look at this, “MAGA advocates”, big priority. We simply can’t compete with people who are a people and who have a deep conviction about who their God is, where his earthly dwelling/communion ground is, (his temple), and that securing it has primacy over all.

Our great advocates want to set up off shore Miami’s. Nice idea, but the house is on fire. Another sick White man who needs to find religion and which must strike him with terrific bolts of lightning to shake him from his stupor.

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/american-singapore-a-maga-agenda-for-puerto-rico/

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  RealityRules
3 months ago

Give me a break. PR has been given special status and tax breaks since I was a child. They are still a basket case of sorts (gee, I wonder why) and we want to give them more? Here’s a summary from a quick ChatGPT search: “For Individuals: 1. Act 22 (Individual Investors Act): • Offers a 100% exemption on capital gains, dividends, and interest income earned in Puerto Rico. • Designed to attract wealthy individuals to relocate to Puerto Rico. • Requires individuals to establish bona fide residency and make contributions to the local economy. For Businesses: 2. Act 20… Read more »

Alzaebo
Alzaebo
Reply to  Compsci
3 months ago

Judas preist. PR should be our Taiwan by now.

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  Alzaebo
3 months ago

It would be. And could be at least our Singapore. However, it is populated by Hispanics, or rather Indios. Their IQ is not up to the Chinese IQ, nor is their work ethic. Therefore any attempt by Trump to beat the genetics of the island is doomed to failure.

Yeah, you’ve heard this all before. But it’s still the best explanation we have for such “failure to thrive”.

Tarl Cabot
Tarl Cabot
Reply to  RealityRules
3 months ago

Properly understood, the historical importance of Christianity is that it provided the spiritual and moral bulwark that saved European Man from cultural and genetic annihilation at the hands of the eastern hordes. From Aetius to Sobieski, Crusaders were able to reconcile Wotan and Jesus, however imperfectly, and preserve their people.

This is what was lost in the so-called “Enlightenment”, but must be rediscovered if we are to survive- some combination of Aquinas and Evola, with a dash of Warhammer 40k.

Alzaebo
Alzaebo
Reply to  Tarl Cabot
3 months ago

Oh indeed. And, by the 13th century, slavery no longer existed in Christian Europe (since its main industrial practitioners were no longer condoned.)

Last edited 3 months ago by Alzaebo
Templar
Templar
Reply to  Tarl Cabot
3 months ago

This is what was lost in the so-called “Enlightenment”, but must be rediscovered if we are to survive- some combination of Aquinas and Evola, with a dash of Warhammer 40k.

“My armor is contempt, my sword is hatred, my shield is disgust, in the Emperor’s name, let none survive.”

Alzaebo
Alzaebo
Reply to  RealityRules
3 months ago

The Great Lie was conflating spirit power with omnipresence (supremacy), since they had no science to understand the underlying mechanisms.

Such had not been lost yet in Europe- their statuary often glorifies the great Greek themes that were abandoned in America.

To remember who we are, we need remember who our God is.
The way our minds work, we need explanations suitable to our kind- this will rekindle the smothered flame.

Last edited 3 months ago by Alzaebo
DLS
DLS
3 months ago

This is a remarkably well written article, especially given the broadness of the subject matter. Two contradictory points on this line: “Individualism is often blamed on Christianity, because within most Christian sects, the individual has a unique relationship with God that is not dependent upon his relationship to his society, ethnic group or tribe.” The founders made clear our rights were God given, so that society cannot take them away. This supports the link between Christianity and individualism. On the other hand, Jesus boiled down all the commandments to two: Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. The latter… Read more »

Severian
3 months ago

You could also view Christianity inside the Roman Empire as an essentially urban religion, a uniquely chiliastic mystery cult, well-suited to Hellenistic culture — that is to say, to urban culture (not a lot of Gnosticism out in the sticks). The Christianity of the Middle Ages changed the way it did because it had to be dispersed into an agrarian culture, with unique characteristics in every settlement. Now it’s trying to transform itself back into an urban religion, as even the tiniest towns out in the sticks have almost unlimited participation in the universal urban culture (of Social Media etc.).… Read more »

Piffle
Piffle
Reply to  Severian
3 months ago

Seeing Christianity from the inside, it is neither urban or agricultural. These sort of outside academic analysis misunderstand it a great deal.

Severian
Reply to  Piffle
3 months ago

Seeing it from the outside is the point of academic analysis. You can’t see historical phenomena from the inside — that’s why it’s called “History,” not “Twitter.”

Steve
Steve
Reply to  Severian
3 months ago

You are talking at cross purposes. You are referring to the effects of religion on greater society, even though the religion as practiced is not the “true” religion, which is what I think @Piffle is getting at.

@Zman appears to be coming at it from an internal point of view — the institution itself will reform to suit the faithful. Either that or it will die. And so long as there’s a paycheck in it, the institution will reform.

Nooneimportant
Nooneimportant
3 months ago

The Protestant revolution was as much a result of the weakening political order as it was disputes over the traditions and practices of Christians. In other words, the changes in the political order can be blamed for the revolution within Christianity.”

This says to me that culture is downstream from politics, not vice versa, and I wholeheartedly agree.

Alzaebo
Alzaebo
3 months ago

For today’s exemplary work, I must credit our esteemed Compsci. He lamented that he had worked to give his kids everything they need except a spiritual and social bulwark (of Christian community.) The Zman graciously answers in kind.

My fear is that the purpose of the system is the system- for us to seek to purpetuate a system that worked for another time, a radically different environment, is like to trying to resurrect the America of 1912. Bow to the past, prepare for the future.

Last edited 3 months ago by Alzaebo
Steve
Steve
Reply to  Alzaebo
3 months ago

I wonder. I chose not to “indoctrinate” my kids in religion. It was something of a surprise when as early teens, they came into where my wife and I were reading and asked us to take them to church.

Made me reflect a lot more on the idea that goes something like, “Believe in something or you will believe in anything.” That void will be filled, and letting some university prof (or now the intartubes) fill it with garbage doesn’t strike me as very wise.

Which values do you want your children to have?

Alzaebo
Alzaebo
3 months ago

Good lord. 75% of the Zman’s contributions are worth a semester, but this one is worth its own graduate degree.

Ted X
Ted X
3 months ago

What if Christianity (aka 12 Tribes of Jacob/Israel and their actual descendants) were a race not a religion ? What if the Bible did not establish a religion but is the record of a specific race of people [not “jews”] and their relationship to God ? http://www.lasotell.com.au/bi/Bible's%20Theme.pdf “From this point onwards the Bible records the history of Adam and his descendants only. It does not mention any other race of people except when they come into contact with Adam and his descendants. There were plenty of other people around – otherwise why did Cain say that anyone who found him… Read more »

Last edited 3 months ago by Ted X
george 1
george 1
Reply to  Ted X
3 months ago

An Israeli geneticist conducted a study around the year 2000, that showed 97 plus percent of the DNA in Israel is Eastern European. I am told that it is now illegal to do origin DNA testing in Israel.

Yman
Yman
3 months ago

Christianity is a religion for slave, not for masters of the universe which nazi understood
it teaches you become a slave against knowledge such as Darwin, Plato
White people chose Christianity, and they became slaves for others

It is Natural outcome that if you follow the rule for slave then you are a slave
when Roman empire fell, actually there no ethnically roman people there in the first place
there were people of Just weak and inferior people with Christian teaching

Han-Chinese ban the Christianity even today, and they had a real imperialist mindset

Zulu Juliet
Zulu Juliet
3 months ago

The two great industrial wars put Christianity on trial. It survived on the faith of those who believed before the atom bomb and the gas chambers. As those people pass, Christianity is having a hard time answering the persistent question of how it was allowed to happen.

Jeffrey Zoar
Jeffrey Zoar
Reply to  Zulu Juliet
3 months ago

Besides more modern technology, I fail to see what differentiates them from the many other devastating wars through history. The people who declare “The world is not the way I think it should be ergo there is no God” will always be with us.

Templar
Templar
Reply to  Jeffrey Zoar
3 months ago

Amen.