Can you be a Christian and Alt-Right?
That is a question the TRS guys were debating the other day. It comes up a lot, mostly because the leading lights in dissident politics are not religious. Some appear to be outright atheists, even if they do not make a big deal out of it. Of the old guys, I cannot think of any who are Evangelical. Most were Protestants but have long ago drifted from their churches. I do not think any of the next generation are religious. Some grew up going to church but abandoned it as soon as they left home.
The thing with the Gen X and Millennial leaders of the alt-right is most of them are disinterested in religion and its role in human society. It is not something that occupies space in their mental framework. Just because the leadership and intellectual elements of the alt-right are non-religious, it does not necessarily follow that the alt-right is hostile to the religious. They spent their youth marinating in Progressive dogma and as a result, they see culture through a secular lens, rather than a spiritual one.
There is a lot more to this so there will be many more posts on the topic, but a good point of entry is the simple question at the start of the post. The alt-right makes race the primary identity. Christians, and I am thinking primarily of non-denominational Christians, place their relationship with Jesus Christ as their primary identity. That is an obvious conflict, as nothing in Scripture backs the primary arguments of the alt-right. Even the most expansive reading of Scripture cannot arrive at a pro-white position.
There is also the fact that many Christians are fanatical supporters of Israel. They have incorporated unconditional support for the state of Israel with their Christian identity. That often extends to Jews in the United States. For many Christians, antisemitism is the worst sin imaginable. That is an obvious problem with the alt-right. Then there is the egalitarianism that many Christians have internalized as part of their relationship with Jesus Christ. They believe they are called to treat all men as children of God.
None of this is necessarily a deal breaker for Christians and the alt-right, but it creates some rather obvious complications. What it means is the alt-right is going to have to get better at understanding how to talk to and appeal to this type of Christian. Simply making the pro-white argument is not going to have much appeal to people who root their identity in something that transcends race. The alt-right, if it is going to make inroads into the Christian community, is going to have figure out how to engage these folks on their terms.
What about Patriotism?
Strangely, the alt-right may have an easier time engaging with Christians, than the hard core Civic Nationalists. Christians have been oppressed in American for generations and they have learned the hard way that they cannot vote themselves to freedom. That is not the case with Civic Nationalists. The narcotic of patriotism keeps them forever optimistic that one more election and the nation will return to the 1950’s, except with a lot browner people, who magically embrace white middle-class sensibilities.
As with Christians, the folks listening to Glenn Beck or Ben Shapiro, as they drive around suburbia, root their identity in something that transcends race and ethnicity. Civic nationalism is a religion and a primary identity. They are Americans, no hyphen. More important, these people look at things like taxes and regulation as primary markers of fidelity to their civic religion. To them, guys like Richard Spencer sound like communists, because he does not seem to care all that much about tax cuts or regulatory reform.
The thing is, the patriotic normie is sure he is working from facts and reason when investing all of his energy into the current political arrangements. In reality, gentry conservatism and libertarianism are a different implementation of the Progressive moral framework. The ends are different, but the assumptions are the same. You do not talk people out of their moral sensibilities with facts and reason. In order to sway patriotic normies, the alt-right is going to have to appeal to them in moral terms.
Most of the alt-right seems to think this is a self-resolving problem. Mass immigration and the war on white people will beat the patriotism out of these people. They will inevitably come to accept identity politics. Maybe, but it would be preferable to win over these people before America becomes Brazil. At that point it may not matter. The alt-right is going to have to think about how to offer something to these folks that rivals the narcotic power of flag waving patriotism. That means constructive engagement, rather than mockery.
These are just two facets to a big topic. Racial politics in America has always been about the two sides of white America debating how to best deal with the blacks. That has made identity politics two dimensional. In order to move past that, it means creating an alternative moral framework. That cannot be conjured from thin air. It must happen in relation to and in reaction to the current claims on the identity of whites. The alt-right will have to be reconciled with religion and patriotism, or it will fail.
Taco – No one is suggesting that race and culture are separate. But they are not one and the same. There is very significant overlap of the two. Does that mean we disregard the exceptions?
Have you taken a good long look at white America recently? I have: I work in health care so I see everything from poor to rich, illiterate to Ph.D. Taco – it is COMMON to come across young to middle aged white men who can not read above a fifth grade level. They can not do basic math. They have lifestyle induced poor health. Some have criminal/drug backgrounds. Many are under/unemployed. So yes – they are white. But they can’t define western civilization. They can’t describe its features. And you think they can defend it?
This is what frightens me. The DIRECT descendents of the west are weak and ignorant. They are addicted to substances and stupid video games. I have nothing in common with these people. I have more in common with, say, a co-worker from the Phillipines who works hard, expects excellent academic performance from her kids, is all law and order, wants people to be rewarded based on merit, and is alarmed at the destruction and disorder that she sees in our society. Do I wish we could turn back the hands of time and redo it all so America was a predominantly European country? Every day. But that is not the path we chose. I want a country where people are judged by their hard work, their values, an actual meritocracy, a place that places supreme value on traditional western principles. Many people of other races may not like that because race and culture are strongly related but if they do, if they share in that same vision, then that is fine.
You seem to like to accuse people of being politically correct if they aren’t 110% on board with your beliefs. No one who spends time on Z’s blog is likely to be PC . . .
Also, you insist that the Nazi thing is non-existent. I agree that there are very few actual true Nazis. But I stand by my assertion that there is a small part of the alt right that seems overly comfortable with blaming the Jews in general for all of the west’s problems. I reject that. You can call it being PC if it makes you feel better. I call it looking at reality. Any group of highly intelligent, highly motivated people will naturally produce a lot of folks who rise to the top, not just in honorable endeavors but evil ones too. We Europeans / Americans fit this bill as well. The reality is that the problems the West is facing today were authored in part by some Jewish people and an endless supply of whites and blacks. Progressives enjoyed a lot of diversity in their march to this utopia they have created.
If you are interested in the struggle the alt-right is having in Europe, I think you would enjoy listening to Dave Rubin’s interview with Tommy Robinson. It is fantastic for many reasons. Rubin’s interviews always are. I will warn you, however, that Mr. Robinson does address why he had to leave the BNP and the EDL, which he founded. Those people, who you insist don’t really exist, kept showing up and highjacking his agenda. . .
want in one hand and shit in annuda. I want I want I want I want. You’ll never get what you want and you being a piece of shit that pleases me. Choose a path of a bridge worthless scum.
Floating in the Normie Zeitgeist is a rising sense that Christianity and/or patriotism alone won’t cut it.
In Genesis we learn that God created the races (nations). In Revelations we learn that in the End Times the races will join God at His side.
It is therefore God’s Plan that the races reach the End Times without being destroyed through race mixing along the way.
It is therefore God’s Will that the races avoid race mixing in order for them to survive to the End Times intact.
God commands us to forgive our personal enemies but to meet His enemies with perfect hatred. Perfect hatred means that mercy, compassion and clemency are strictly forbidden.
Race mixers seek to sabotage God’s Plan and to defy God’s Will. As such they are enemies of God.
Therefore God commands us to meet race mixers with perfect hatred and any act of mercy, compassion or clemency toward them is strictly forbidden.
A Biblical Defense of Ethno-Nationalism
http://faithandheritage.com/2011/01/a-biblical-defense-of-ethno-nationalism/
Alt Right portal: https://nxx14.blogspot.com
A lot of this really depends of what you mean by the “Alt Right”. Broadly speaking there are broad currents in it at the moment. Their is the Natsoc element which is completely incompatible with Christianity, and there is the more Paleo strand which is.
The Natsoc strand is basically repackaging modernism into a whites only variant and they’re fine with sexual degeneracy, paganism, and and overriding white state which claims our primary loyalty. Sorry…. but Christianity and it are fundamentally incompatible.
The Paleo strand, on the other hand, is compatible since it rejects the modernist understanding of man and builds upon revelation and empiricism. Like it or lump it, Christianity was the pillar of Western Civilisation and any rejection of it, it a rejection of Western identity.
That’s not to say that the some of the Natsoc criticism of Christianity, particularly its modern formulations, doesn’t have any validity. There is a fair amount of modern “cuckedness” in Christianity, particularly in its kumbayah formulations. But it’s one thing to remodel and another to demolish the house.
Actually, everything in scripture directly supports all the tenants of the Alt-Right. The biggest problem with modern day Christians is that they don’t understand their own scripture.
The Tower of Babel story directly states that God wants all people to be part of separate nations and clearly forbids a globalist, all inclusive superstate.
The bible clearly states Jews are evil and Jesus calls them “the Synagogue of Satan.” All rabbinic Judaism is directly descended from the teachings of the Pharisees and their demonic holy book, the Talmud. The Pharisees were/are a splinter group of Israelites who turned their back on God and decided to worship themselves and use the tools of Satan, like lies and usury, to conquer humanity. All the mainstream Israelites were either killed off by the Pharisees or became Christians (then later, Muslims). Jews aren’t the “sons of Abraham,” they are the bastard offspring of Satan that willingly turned their back on their own God and their own people for earthly wealth and power. Big difference.
Please name one strain of humans that has not profited or suffered from selling out their birthright for a quick profit.
Politics is patent medicine for lazy thinkers.
Monolithic and binary works for times of war. Sad to see that most have no off switch. Or just a reset.
But most are urban and educated. Mostly end up dead. Sad.
Christians like and support Israel for two reasons: 1. A Muslim state replacing it would not allow Christian pilgrims. See Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Turkey for the attitudes towards Christian pilgrims. 2. Muslims are the natural and eternal enemy of the Christian faith and Christians and Israel is their enemy.
For Protestants, at least some, there is the end-times stuff and also for a few the idea that the sin of not stopping the Holocaust (a bit arrogant if you ask me to assume that power existed outside of God) by their ancestors can be washed away by supporting Israel. But the main reason is 1. Pilgrimage; 2. Muslims.
HOWEVER the Alt-Right is supremely uninterested in winning, or being anything other than IMHO a bought and paid for Soros operation aimed to be as deliberately offensive to Christians and Patriots as possible; those not bought and paid for seem to believe they’ll be the big Honchos in a White minority nation running the White tribalist militias and hence WANT TO LOSE. So they can be the big tadpole in the tiny pond, rather than a real size frog in a big White majority lake.
Who’d follow Richard Spencer in an 89% White nation? His only hope for power and influence is for Whites to be 15% or less.
The holocaust has to do solely with the Pluperfect Self Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on Calvary where His burning charity for mankind substituted for the fires of the O.T. holocausts which where types of the Holocaust on Calvary (Which was the antitype).
Now, a holocaust is, in part, a sacrificial offering to God which is then consumed.
Unless you think the Nazis were killing Jews as an act of worship and then eating them, then don’t describe those war crimes as a holocaust
Shouldn’t we have a set of ideas and goals that we support rather than worry who’s allowed in the club? I have a hard time understanding why the Right wants to pursue identity politics when we see how crazy the Left has become and the damage done to our country from their identity politics. This list from 2016 somewhat defining the Alt Right was tweeted out by Ramzpaul the other day and I wish we could grow support around what should be a widely known platform, similar to this one. It should be so well known as to be conventional wisdom, so that it would be impossible for the media to continue labeling all non-establishment conservatives White Supremacists. Here it is:
What does the Alt Right want?
* Strong, high-trust communities for our people. We reject immigration and favor homogeneous societies.
* Protection from Third-World outsourcing. We support tariffs designed to protect domestic industry.
* Protection from the globalist elite. We reject Super-PACS and foreign elites purchasing elections.
* Healthy relationships between men and women. We respect truthfulness regarding sexual differences.
* Protection from globalist pollution. We support regulations designed to protect our natural heritage.
* Protection of cultural diversity. We reject multiculturalism and favor separate cultures.
* Protection from forced association. We reject being forced to betray our beliefs and support what we believe is degenerate.
* Freedom of honest debates (i.e., history, race, sex). We reject political correctness and cultural Marxism.
* Protection from international corporate oppression. We support nationalist economies with a focus on local industry and small business.
If these ideas are implemented as policies, a framework would be created that nurtures the culture we believe is healthier for our country. If it were up to me, I’d want to see the following adjustments and additions to the list:
* We support a moratorium on immigration and refugee resettlement programs. (Rather than reductions in numbers.)
* We support Christianity as the official religion of the U.S, with tolerance for all religions to be practiced.
* We support English as the official language of the U.S.
You may not be interested in identity politics, but identity politics is interested in you. I am a heterosexual white male, which to the identity politics left makes me the devil. This political situation has lowered my quality of life in real ways. Ignoring it doesn’t make it go away.
Absolutely, I’m with you, Taco_Town! And I’ve been hurt by this identity politics BS in very real ways as well. Bigly. I just think the way to solve is with policies and laws rather than going after people. A collection of policies and laws that when implemented create a fertile environment in which decent, hardworking citizens can thrive. I believe many of our countrymen out there are receptive to certain ideas (immigration, borders, non-interventionism, etc.) so it wouldn’t be hard to get the numbers. We need to use technology to find each other and meet, get an agreed upon platform, disseminate the platform widely and organize like hell so we can lobby Capitol Hill and the White House with what we want. And so we can make politicians running for office in 2018 know who we are and what we support and don’t. How do people know if they want to join us if they don’t know what we stand for? And what we stand for must be more than not liking a list of things. Time is of the essence. We can’t keep wasting time having White Lives Matters rallies so people can support Confederate monuments and get to know each other. We need to have much more direction and goals to aggressively pursue. We don’t have much time and we’re already way behind schedule.
Being a Christian, you do have to hit them from the moral side. First, you have to point out that God always talks about nations, plural. A unified world is a Satanic world. Second, you discuss the Tower of Babel. This is my own view but I’ve always view the language split as more than language. Anyone who has tried to learn another language starts to find that languages carry their own assumptions and contexts. So mostly you have to talk to them on their turf in a scriptural manner. You can’t try to talk them out of Christianity.
Finally, yes Evangelicals back Israel but I think that is beginning to wane. Jews haven’t reciprocated that support and while it won’t turn nasty it will turn to indifference.
Patriotism I think is easier and requires redirection.
There’s also the fact that many Christians are fanatical supporters of Israel. They have incorporated unconditional support for the state of Israel with their Christian identity
Jews can have a peaceful relationship with Mahometans because they are not idolaters in the eyes of the Messias-Deniers whereas Christians are idolaters and would be killed if the Messias-Deniers had power
The religious people , I always call them the Deus Volt crowd (think Vox Day here) seems to assume that a Christian West is a requirement for their to be a West and this is going to be a problem.
Its pretty clear that Western people have pretty much begun to move on from everyones favorite Middle Eastern religion and organized religion in general and aren’t enamored with going back on that plantation for “muh free social capital”
The non religious majority doesn’t want its laws written to suit religious ideologues. Don’t get me wrong a certain amount of deference to religion, letting bakers decide who they want to bake for, not making religious bodies pay for abortions is fine but the Christendom crowd is no more welcome in power than the Left is, less so in some ways
That’s not acceptable to s lot of people on the Deus Volt crowd ad i suspect its why cooperation is so hard.
Abortion in the US will is the biggest pivot issue, I can think of at the moment you can’t make a reasoned compromise when the other side thinks removing a piece of tissue is murder or from the other point of view, the other side thinks killing babies is OK
There is little middle ground and there are tons of other heated issues and until that middle ground can be reached on issues, deeper cooperation is going to be very difficult.
Ultimately the political patriots can be convinced. This has already happened in large part. 10 years ago you could not post the slightest race-realist comment on boards like Free Republic without risking having your account closed. Now it’s not that different from V-Dare in terms of what people say in response to various unending black crimes and black corruption.
Christianity may be a harder nut to crack, though
“… nothing in Scripture backs the primary arguments of the alt-right. Even the most expansive reading of Scripture cannot arrive at a pro-white position.” Why state the obvious? Of course the Scripture is tacit on race. After all, all that mattered to its authors was the distinction between Jews and goyim. And, boy, were they ever specific about whose side they were on! Historians will probably spend another century or so arguing whether Christianity shall be treated as a dissident Jewish doctrine able to attract enough gentiles (the canonical view) or an originally gentile mystic cult with which a group of enterprising Jews tried, but failed, to effectuate a makeover of the old Jahve creed (so that the New Testament can, essentially, be regarded as a chronicle of that failure). The truth will, as always, be somewhere in the middle, but, in any event, a religion with such origins had long outserved its usefulness to the modern Western man. We have, simply, become too well-informed to take it seriously. And, our current preoccupation is with human biology, remember? Whereas in Christianity, its gentile Mithras part ignored the biology altogether, being all immersed in things celestial. On the contrary, the Judaic part, although outright obsessed with biology (actually, hardly with anything but), was only interested in just one tribe, not ours, by the way.
In short, if backward deplorables in the Bible Belt still need their “Jaysus the Lawd” to take them through the day, it´s entirely their problem. The Alt-Right, bound to be a minority movement for the foreseeable future, cannot afford to spend time on losers. It has no choice but to seek alliances with smart individuals regardless of worship preferences or feelings about the flag.
Supporting Zionism means keeping the Holy Land out of Muslim hands. Christendom tried to take control of the Holy Land several times in the past and was never successful, and I don’t think we’d be successful today either. Israel was the Jewish homeland in our own Old Testament and them holding it in 2017 seems perfectly Christian to me, especially considering the alternatives.
No Jerusalem, no Revelations.
Muslims and anti-Roman Jews (the radical minority) win the war against Christians and messianic Jews.
Zman, I dig your blog, but I honestly don’t understand why this is even an issue? I was really disappointed in TRS’s take as well, but at least they kept it confined to the personal.
Prior to the 1960s a Christian having a nationalist and nativist (Alt-Right) tendencies would have been entirely unremarkable. Charles Martel had a lot more in common with the Alt-Right than the staff at Christ Church in Alexandria. I certainly wouldn’t question Martel’s faith.
Israel-worship is also a very recent phenomenon. With regards tot the JQ, Protestants in touch with their roots know full well that Martin Luther wrote things that make Andrew Anglin look like a cuck in comparison. I certainly wouldn’t question Luther’s faith.
From a historical standpoint there is no valid reason why a Christian can’t be Alt-Right.
Patriotism isn’t the argument. Reality is the argument. Civic Nationalism and mainstream Christianity are at odds with reality, and are failing and will fail because they are at odds with reality. Reality is the Alt-Right’s secret weapon. Being realistic is the defining characteristic of being Alt-Right.
This is also the reason it’s Impossible to argue with these people. They are currently in denial of reality as their current allegiance demands it, and as such are difficult if not impossible to reason with. They must be bludgeoned by reality until they wake up.
I also think its a mistake to consider these people our allies so long as the continue to be in denial of reality. At best, they are (likely)future allies. As it stands now they are still in lesgue with the enemy.
Churches are only important to a society because they can set their societies morals code, and disseminate it to the society’s members.
Because white people equate status with morality, that means that establishing the moral code will dictate the behavior of everyone who is attempting to raise their status, which is everyone.
In the West, currently, churches don’t really matter. Because in the West, those morality & status setting & spreading functions have been taken over by the universities & the press.
Mainline Christian denominations did not self-poz. They became pozzed because their leadership comes from people who the universities & press have already pozzed long before they put on their rainbow flag vestments.
As a counterpoint, those vanishingly rare denominations who forbid their members from attending universities & consuming outside media (Amish, super fundy hardcore Mormons & Baptist sects) remain un-pozzed.
If we can wrest control over the institutions & mediums that set values & spread them, the churches will eventually un-pozz themselves, as un-pozzed members & leaders eventually replace pozzed ones.
If we never wrest control over those institutions & technologies, then nothing we do matters. A nationalistic tyrant could seize total control of the government, but would never be able to get more than temporary, forced, grudging obedience from a pozzed citizenry.
BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE
BREAKING: Former Trump Foreign Policy Advisor Cuts Plea Deal, Admits Russians Offered To Funnel ‘Dirt’ on Hillary
http://www.dailywire.com/news/22922/breaking-former-trump-foreign-policy-advisor-cuts-ben-shapiro
Aka they are all guilty, Trump knew all along, it’s almost time for impeachment hearings
Five words:
Fake news, go F$@# yourself
Four words: Boom goes Tony Podesta
Three words: Lock Her Up!
You’re a troll,you’re wrong, and you’re a jerk.
You know these kinds of posts will cause your *real* name to be put on a very bad list don’t you? It’s too late for you, but you may want to warn other before their names are on that same list. I know you will laugh and scoff at this comment, but I also know you will be weeping and shitting yourself when you are picked up.
Spammer. No relationship to any conversation going on here. Political version of “I made $7,000 on my computer at home”.
Romans 12:2, John 17:14-16, John 15:19 and 1 John 2:15-17 are pretty clear about how Christian should define their relationship with the world.
We also know who’s currently in charge of this world, which explains why things are as they are;
“We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.” 1 John 5:19 – John 12:31
“The time for judging this world has come, when Satan, the ruler of this world, will be cast out.” – John 12:31.
As for our future, that’s also spelled out quite clearly. It’s why Christians look forward to a future that’s not of this world;
“Our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.” – Philippians 3:20
The wall of denial between the internal world of progressive christians and reality has become too forbidding for alt-right christians to scale. The outcasts gather online in such places as this to voice their opposition to the church of anomie. Talk doesn’t cook the rice, decisive action is needed to shape the outcome. Empty pews are an indication of their financial reality, which might explain why churches are in the refugee resettlement business, making them an annex of the bureaucracy, thus preaching the gospel of Marx.
My understanding is that the refugee resettlement business is financially lucrative for the churches, courtesy of the US taxpayer. Follow the money, and remember that the Libs see the church as something that is supposed to give to them, not the other way around. So as the churches Lib up, they must raise the money to pay the bills from somewhere.
One of the really bad features of all of this is how both the government and the churches hide this financial arrangement from the taxpayers and many of the congregations. It’s like they don’t really want anyone to know about it 😉
Another bridge. What unites is is we’re Anti-PC.
The issue, IMO, with the Alt-Right is just like the Tea Party. It is organic. It has no leader. There are folks popping up and claiming to be this or that, but the alt-right is a manifestation or evolving of the Tea Party folk… at least the over 30 alt-right.
Where the religion part comes in is the youngers who are at a disadvantage in being Christian since it is the ONE religion in the country that is mocked, forced to take this or that down, has mostly been corrupted by feminine doctrine or other PC stuff. ( Zman, you’ve written so much about how the different churches in the US have been converged or twisted ).
All that to say, I’m not surprised there is a younger chunk of folk that are politically alt-right ( anti-establishment/PC ) but maybe not so into Christianity. Where would a youngster find a Christian experience that is nationalistic, ie, America is not bad, and is anit-politically correct? They may be mutually exclusive nowadays.
I’m Christian and identified as T.P. and now love the Alt-right, but I identify with them… not lead by them or someone. It’s the anti-PC culture… Finally someone is fighting back against the great lefist/progressive blob that has been in control since the late 60’s. I love it. I’m enjoying it. Maybe I’m wrong , eh?
Hello Z-man,
I would like to add a little bit of background to your article. American evangelicalism has a lot of currents and eddies so it can be difficult to navigate. Of course the reason there are so many different opinions out there is because we have had freedom of conscience protected in the U.S.
First of all I want to say that any evangelical can be very patriotic. I was taught in the church of my youth that nations were instituted by God and it was our duty to be good, loyal citizens. That was common for most of our history.
There are two doctrinal dimensions that if you understand them you can pretty much peg a Christians views on Israel. The first dimension is the churches view of eschatology (future things) which can be broken down into three basic categories: amillennialism, postmillennialism, and premillennialism. I won’t go into detail but would recommend two articles (one by a pre-mil and one by a post-mil) that will provide some good depth:
* The Unscriptural Theologies Of Amillennialism And Postmillennialism
* Murray Rothbard on the Kingdom: A Response
The second dimension to keep in mind is that many denominations believe that the church has replaced Israel (called Replacement Theology). Here is an introduction to that that topic:
* What is Replacement Theology?
Churches that are amillennial and believe in replacement theology have a history of anti-semitism. Churches that are premillennial and reject replacement theology are usually pro-semitic (often Christian Zionists).
I hope this was of interest.
There is a third dimension, Glenn. It’s called Kingdom Identity, or Israel Identity. For example, see here:
http://www.americaspromiseministries.org/
These Christians have the view that we neither coexist with “Israel” (the ‘Jews’) nor that we have ‘replaced’ Israel. Rather that Christians, as a conglomerate race of people (white/anglo-saxon/germanic) ARE Israel, and always have been. The three ‘millennialism’ eschatologies you mention are all flavors of dispensationalism. Kingdom Identity teaches the Gospel of the Kingdom–that which Jesus taught–was preached to “the House of Israel”…to whom ONLY, Jesus said, “was I sent”. Those, throughout the centuries back to Christ, who have accepted Christianity, who have “heard their Shepherd’s voice” ARE racial Israel, by definition. The ramifications of which should be obvious. The “Christian West” was not an accident of nature.
It’s an interesting perspective. Few Christians have been exposed to it. There’s a reason the ‘Mystery of the Kingdom’ has been hidden for so long. The promise made to the prophet Daniel millennia ago was that it would not to be revealed until “the time of the end”. That promise is about to be fulfilled.
I live in the Bible Belt and I know lots of Churchians but only two Christians. The Churchians will likely cuck to the end but the actual Christians won’t be much of a problem.
I fear we all are too far down a bad path to cleanly find a way back. Two things are now paramount. First is to see the world around you as clearly as possible, including the motivations and likely behaviors of those who understand the world as you do, and especially those who don’t. Zman’s forum and all the comments are great help in that understanding. Only through a clear and true interpretation of the world we live in, can we go to be second thing, which is to figure out how to prepare for our likely shared future. There is the nuts-&-bolts of what to stash and where to live. But there is, more importantly, the need to understand how people think, and what they might be motivated to do, as we descend into the maelstrom. I feel like all of us here are getting a bit out front of the rest in such matters, and I hold hope that we might be better off for our conversations.
As a sort-of-Christian and sort-of alt-right, I don’t have strong opinions on this discussion, other than to point out that as individuals get stressed, they will fall more cleanly into denying the reality around them and holding fast to their religious or social prejudices, or they will instead place them into context with the reality around them, and use them as needed, when they offer value and meaningful guidance. These conversations here are giving us the chance to test-drive our perspectives.
It’s hard to refrain from mocking the civic nationalists and religious fanatics. Maybe the best way for people like myself is to simply keep our mouths shut and wait for these Einsteins to come to us. Events are rapidly going to force them to the alt right, even if they don’t want to cross over. And frankly, many of these gentry types and their clueless minions will opt to join the enemy.
Epaminondas –
Many of the religious people you enjoy mocking are not sitting idly by, hoping for the best. Many are preparing for the day when absolutely no one will be able to pretend that our country can continue on like nothing is wrong. I’m not sure many members of this group are quite as in need of guidance as you appear to think.
You don’t impress me as being a religious fanatic. They don’t generally show up here. If you are one, welcome.
The Christians were doing preparedness before the alt-right were born. I heard a show on combat surgery on a church station in 1992.
Same thing for the vets. Bigly.
If anybody knows conflict prep, survival, even victory, they do.
Christianity (and rabbinical Judaism) began as an urban movement, preparing to resist or survive a corrupt Empire. Some built in strengths there.
I find myself frequently agreeing with the alt right’s identification of symptoms that plague the west but too often they leap from discussion of the symptoms straight to singing the praises of nationalism with a socialistic bent and blaming the Jews.
Do they not know who their audience is? Or are they really that tone deaf?
We haven’t even buried all of the WWII vets yet and many of us who concur with the problems the alt right has identified had fathers or grandfathers who had a front row seat in a fight that involved nationalism with a touch of genocide. There is a bit of a generational memory that is still at work and many of us, for many reasons, are not interested in playing any part in a movement that idealizes those notions.
And then there are the thankfully small factions within the alt right who can’t seem to help themselves – whenever they discuss a problem, they inevitably blame it on the Jews. They are obsessed.
In healthcare, whenever we come across someone who looks at the problems in their life and links them all back to just one cause, one event, or one person, we can be reasonably confident we are dealing with someone who has a psychological problem.
What part of this is attractive? Or solution based? Why would anyone want to associate themselves with idealologies and thought patterns that failed so spectacularly within living memory?
And that does not even begin to address the problem of Christians who take their faith seriously. Some are die-hard Israel supporters, some just view Israel as another country, but many Christians view the Bible and Christ as having distinctly Jewish origins and characteristics so the incessant “Blame the Jews” is a non-starter.
While millions of Christians in the west would dearly love to see a return to sanity and reason and frankly an acknowledgment of the superiority of western culture and civilization, we know that paradise will not be found on earth and that we must answer for the wrong we do on earth. There is a world of difference between being honest and defending yourself and others, and actively participating in a movement that incites hatred, promotes lies, and foments needless violence.
While I think blaming the Jews for everything is stupid and an overreaction it must be said that both presently and historically, the Jews are disproportionally represented among the power elite in terms of leftism, socialism, progressivism, globalism, etc. That isn’t something that should necessarily be glossed over. Also, Nazi hunting is playing the left’s game. It’s like the race card. Us fussing over a few odd cranks on our side is exactly what they want. The correct response to them pointing out Nazis is to punch the left in the face and tell them to go F$%# themselves. That it bothers you shows that you still hold some of the prejudices of post WWII political correctness. Younger generations are now showing up with no connection to the post-WWII order, whose only experience with Facism is its use as a straw man by the left.
Another thing to consider Is that even if we’re not Nazis or white supremacists, and we’re not by the way, what we are proposing and what we will implement if we get our way will disproportionally benefit white people at nonwhite people’s expense, in a de-facto sense. It’s something the left will try to use against us, and something we need to reconcile amongst ourselves.
After years of following this blog, I still don’t know exactly what it is you intend to implement. Please share.
Implement the primacy of Western Civilization
You should probably stop reading it then.
Well, you keep saying they have to go back, but you never say how to do that. But maybe you’re right and I should just stop reading.
You miss the point of “They have to go back”. The unsaid, second half of that statement is “…or it will take a civil war to settle this”. “They have to go back” is the political solution, and it need not be literal.
That or we could just let the left win, is that your suggestion?
This is about strategy, not tactics.
No- stay. As should Dearenkal.
Your viewpoint is needed, or this becomes a circle-jerk.
No, Bunny, don’t stop reading here. What Alzaebo said.
Look what deportation camps did for Germany’s reputation.
You think ‘they’ are just gonna fold?
Maybe the whites can get their own state in Mississippi, this time.
(Millenials- the Black Power movement during the 60’s ‘civil rights’ era claimed Mississippi as a possible Black ethnostate.)
Taco –
One does not need to engage in any Nazi hunting to notice the knee-jerk Jew blaming that does take place in a some of the alt-right circles. I am not talking about people who recognize that Jews’ presence in the upper circles of power is much greater than their numbers would suggest or even that Progressivism has been championed by some Jews. I’m talking about people who, no matter what the issue is, the conversation eventually comes back to whatever being the Jews’ fault.
It is an obsession. It is bizarre. It is just like listening to black Americans who blame all of their problems on white Americans, including black-on-black crime. It is as if, but for the particular population, all the problems would fix themselves.
Someone else here suggested that the alt right doesn’t need to worry about its image or message because events will get so bad that most Christians ultimately won’t care. I fully expect things to get worse – it would not surprise me. While the majority of alt right are good people who have decided they can no longer remain silent at the lies and absurdities our culture is drowning in, I don’t see why we need to stomach those who offer no solutions but are effective at driving people away.
Z states that the alt-right bases its primary identity on race. Race is NOT irrelevant. It is powerful. But when I think back to all the time I spent on college campuses, the greatest # of people who were pushing progressivism down everyone’s throats were white.
The alt-right can either base itself entirely on race or it can base itself on the core ideas of western civilization / culture as well as actual efforts-one of which must be on the complete overhaul of the education system.
I do not see any chance of race working – the numbers are not there – unless the US breaks apart along racial lines.
I don’t see any clean, easy or bloodless way out of this.
The so-called Nazis are stupid and irrelevant, and as such best ignored. Every moment of time spent and thought invested in opposing them is wasted, the time/thoughts could be better spent opposing the left. Being squeamish about them is indicative of leftover prejudices from the post-WWII world order. In 2017, they are a bunch of nobodies used as a strawman by the modern left. All the more reason to ignore them, paying any attention to them empowers the left.
As for the rest, culture and race aren’t separate. Western Civilization was developed by white Europeans for their own benefit, and they are the most comfortable in it and most equipped to succeed in it. It’s about race, whether you like it or not.
The truth is, name a major current problem of the U.S. and you’ll find a jew(s) involved in birthing and selling the idea and implementing the policy. But certainly not all jews are responsible for this and plenty of goyim are by their side helping them. So in order to avoid modern day anti-semitic pogroms, it would be much wiser to focus on outlawing behavior, rather than people of a certain tribe, race or religion. I.e., put a cap on amount of legal usury, end the Federal Reserve, implement immigration moratorium, cease the refugee resettlement program, make the media legally accountable and financially liable so they go out of business for spreading lies, severely limit welfare programs to ONLY go to citizens and only for limited period of time, end all foreign worker visa programs, follow international law and stop interventionism and coups d’etat, etc. By implementing policies and making laws of behavior, powerful people who want to exploit Americans may self-deport to a country where they’re allowed to do so. This way, we’re addressing not only the jews who might partake in the deeds that harm average Americans, but also the goyim who partake right along with them. Go after the behavior, not the people.
Alas, this is when I realize that I’m hoping for a fantasy, that my above wish list will never happen, because all of those things are at the heart of what our country is. Sorry to be defeatist, but we pretty much are a Zionist petri dish here in the U.S. of A.
Agreed in that some seem to attribute every ill to Jews. But you paint with too large a brush, as many of our ills do lie in the effort of Jews to re-make America to better suit the Jews–to the harm of actual Americans. Those with disproportionate influence deserve disproportionate blame.
Also, what the Israel flag waving Christians need to grok is that the Jews in America are descended from the Pharisees of Jesus’s time and are _still_ the enemies of Christ and his followers.
Matt 23:31-33 Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?”
Matt 23:25 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
John 18:2-3 Then Judas, having received a detachment of troops, and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, came there with lanterns, torches, and weapons.
Jews are sponsoring the immigration waves in Europe and the U.S. with the agenda of eliminating the white race. Jews concocted the Holohoax myth. Jews dominated Russian Communism, which was explicitly an anti-white genocide. Sorry if grandpa fought on the wrong side, the Jews are enemy number 1. Read further.
As usual, I’m late to this discussion. I have no idea why Dearenkal’s post was downvoted because even if you don’t agree with it, it was well-put.
Protestantism as formulated in the 16th and 17th centuries was an attempt to recover the doctrines of the church fathers and add clarity. It was also a reactionary movement against the Roman papacy and doctrine. This is not the place to give a history of the Reformation, but suffice it to say you only find caricatures of it on Alt-Right websites. The Catholics do not bother to understand Protestantism and neither do the non-religious or pagans who want to worship Thor and Odin.
Protestantism takes the Augustinian view that there are two kingdoms at work until the day of judgment: the kingdom of man and the kingdom of God. The latter will last forever, the former lasts until the day of judgment. The kingdom of man is governed by natural laws published at Creation and summarized by the 10 commandments which are given in two tables: duties to God and duties to your neighbor. The second table contain things like, “YOu shall not murder,” “you shall not steal,” etc. These are things governments usually outlaw. The argument against immigration is therefore as follows: they have taken things that don’t belong to them and need to go back. Here, for example, is a good summary on illegal immigration as it relates to church membership and the BIble’s view on immigration generally. Here is a report on race.
Promoting massive, disruptive unchecked immigration is a clear violation of the eight commandment. The sins forbidden by the eighth commandment include
It’s pretty clear our immigration policy encourages all of the above.
The Progressivization of Christianity is pretty recent, actually. It’s interesting that older guys like Pat Buchanan seem to have no problem reconciling race-realist and immigration-restrictionist views with Christianity. Neither did Rev. Dabney or Stonewall Jackson ,for that matter. As for Israel, just ask your average Catholic or Orthodox believer of sixty years ago if Christianity requires you to be pro-Israel. He would laugh in your face.
As an Alt-Right Christian, I don’t really see that this is going to be a huge issue, as so many of the previous commenters illustrated. Patriotism is going to be a bigger problem, IMHO.
Vox Day is an avowed Christian, and a leading voice of the alt right. His blog hosts many discussions on the subject. I,as a very lapsed prod. Have a hard time knowing whether a Christian commentator here is “old school “or an unacknowledged churchian… makes quite the difference.
I think this article forgets an important point. People aren’t persuaded to join the Alt-Right, people are Red Pilled when their previous beliefs break under the strain of reality. The Red Pill is our recruiting tool. We shouldn’t be trying to persuade Christians and civic nationalists, we should be trying to figure out a way to destroy Christian’s faith in the current system, and Civic Nationalists faith in their own ideology without causing them to hate us in the process.
I distrust movements that talk about placing man or some equivalent placeholder like “reason” at the top of the stack. Mostly because all of the other attempts have devolved into mass murder.
As ZMan has pointed out, progressivism is the end result of protestant reformers and is in effect a religion. It’s a looney toon religion but it is the one in charge.
Progressivism cant possibly hold through a major crisis though because it is so opposed to objective reality. If we suffer another major financial upheaval, a new order will certainly emerge.
The egalitarian progressive moment predates the reformation. Revolutionary utopia probably had its roots in monastic tradition. Many have noted the strong support of Franciscans for the French Revolution.
Many have noted the anticlericalism of the French revolutionaries and the confiscation and destruction of monasteries in post-revolutionary France.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Monasteries_destroyed_during_the_French_Revolution
http://www.historytoday.com/gemma-betros/french-revolution-and-catholic-church
Ah, the supporters were the first put up against the wall. How very Leftist.
I have been unable to find evidence for the claim that the Franciscans supported the French Revolution-only a history of martyrdom and abolishment.
http://www.ucatholic.com/saints/french-revolution-martyrs/
Citation or it didn’t happen. Too many commenters here present stuff as fact that has no basis in reality, e.g., Christianity is matriarchal, UTI’s are likely to hospitalize young women, Thomas More was a priest, female fitness/athleticism peaks in high school, etc. etc.
Progressivism is Marxism and has nothing to do with Protestant reformers. The idea that leftism comes out of Christianity rather than Marxism is the big error of Neoreaction, which is Jew propaganda. These folks seem to be entirely ignorant of the history of hostility between the Catholic church and the revolutionary Freemasons.
I think you exaggerate the influence of the alt right. I think they are an integral part of the rightist resistance, but that doesn’t make the rest of us Buckleyites.
If I had to identify, Paleo still works best. Catholics like me never got on the Zionist or Israel first bandwagon. Good fences make good neighbors as a social policy also works for me.
Interesting post.
What the alt-right AND the the American churchians will have to do is return to historic, orthodox, Protestant Christian faith, if they want to survive.
But NYC should secede as a Catholic feudal monarchy with an Italian-origin king and hereditary serfdom for welfare recipients (but they’ll be called “clients”, not “serfs”).
The answer lies in taking people one at a time. As an out-house Christian of sorts, I look at the man first and superficial identities second. I have no problem with joos, blacks and browns that embrace my values, pull their weight and chip in to help.
I want to see the dissident right succeed. To be truthful as it stands right now I don’t see any conflict. We all want to build a brighter future for ourselves and anyone that is on board with that is okay in my books.
Much of the alt right is quite young now. The religious space in their heads is presently quite small, and occupied mostly by nerves which connect directly to the penis.
For many of them that will change after they have children, or begin to approach middle age and apprehend their own mortality.
The MSM and the Left (was that redundant?) are happy to use Spencer as the prime example of the Alt-Right. Spencer, just like David Duke, uses any excuse to get in front of cameras and increase his fame. As a promoter of a failed leftist ideology from the mid-20th century, Spencer is not a member of the Alt-Right or even any Right. Spencer and his Nazi cosplayers are better named the Alt-Reich.
Can you be a Christian and a White Nationalist? No you can’t.
Because worshiping a dead jew negates the whole WHITE part.
Turning the other cheek is also way too progressive.
You may just as well be a democrat at that point.
Simple explanation of Christian concept of self-defense and turning the other cheek.
https://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/paul-coughlin/christian-self-defense-11581252.html
“Turning the other cheek is way too progressive.”
Can’t remember the last time I saw that.
They are too busy spreading them.
history doesn’t support this POV, as America was founded by White Christian nationalists and has remained so until recent times.
Non-denominational Christian, patriotic, strong supporter of Israel defines Donald Trump and many if not most of his base.
Scripture:
https://www.creators.com/read/joseph-farah/10/14/what-the-bible-says-about-illegal-immigration
Saint and Doctor of the Church:
https://www.romancatholicman.com/looking-immigration-debate-st-thomas-aquinas/
Popes:
http://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199935420.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780199935420-e-61
The Church’s teaching on nations and immigration is more nuanced than one might think. Its teaching on love is very straightforward.
Didn’t the Tower of Babel represent multiculturalism? And all the peoples were separated by God and dispersed around the world and given different languages because evil deeds came from that multicultural way of being with one language for all peoples.
There are many assumptions made by Christians today that are a result of intellectual and cultural drift. More of this http://sonsofeuropa.com would help.
Christians, Alt-Rights and Patriots (CAP) may not all mix together into one cohesive batter to make the perfect cake, but can generally co-exist and form the alliance needed to defeat the progressive disease that threatens all of us. While all 3 groups have different goals, they all face the same enemy. In the end, if/when the Progressive scourge has been utterly defeated, I don’t see the 3 of them all deciding to turn on each other and continue the fight. Disagreements sure, but not full scale war.
Unlike the Progressive scourge that harbors all their victim and SJW groups under their umbrella. They believe that once CAP has been defeated, it will usher in 10,000 years of unicorn utopia. Except it won’t because their umbrella groups will turn on and eat each other up.
The Islamists will demand their religion remain and the Progressive will comply. LGBT will demand to be accepted as equals, Islam will say die. Hollywood sexual predators will continue to hunt the young and upcoming male/female talent and be allowed to get away with it as long as they continue to send millions to their political parties coffers. Women will want equal rights, Islam will say throw on the Burka and shut up less you get 50 lashes in public. Greenies will demand more windmills while telling the Animal lovers to shut up about the millions of birds who are killed every year by those slice and dice machines. White guilt ridden liberals will face a choice, succumb to the demands of BLM to pay for slavery crimes over 150 years ago or be exiled to Northen Alaska. And on and on and on.
I feel a bit better about the prospects of the end game with the CAP alliance.
The source of the disease is the political and corporate elites who have promoted the demographic destruction of whites for their own ends.
Either we get together to put a end to these groups and their agenda or our goose is cooked.
A core platform would be Trump’s campaign platform which was wildly popular among lower and middle-class whites.
Which is really white centric.
– Build the wall
– Enforce all immigration laws on the books.
– Keep Muslims from immigrating.
– Promote America first policy
– limit our foreign wars
– Stop replacing America workers with foreign workers. IOW no more foreign worker visas period.
– punish companies that off-shore
– Set up a trade policy based on tariffs to force American companies to bring back industry or be forced out of business. Which Trump has sadly abandoned.
– Target companies and individuals who support open borders and mass immigration.
– Put a hard case in charge of the SEC to clean house on Wall Street.
– Kill the EEOC and any other DOJ organ enforcing social engineering.
These are all things that a lot of white Americans can agree on and support. They are not explicitly pro white but implicitly they are. And will benefit whites immensely.
If you want to craft a message to protect whites it’s better to frame it as “good for the citizens” and to MAGA.
–
You say: “Racial politics in America has always been about the two sides of white America debating how to best deal with the blacks. That’s made identity politics two dimensional.” True, but not exhaustive After fleeing the predations of an English Protestant political class whose internal divisions were trumped by their common anti-Catholicism, my Irish ancestors came to America only to find themselves embroiled in a war between two competing visions of Protestant Christianity. That conflict continues today, although the antagonists’ Christianity is much attenuated.
A revival of “White Man’s Burden” could do a lot here. A big part of the WMB was bringing the Gospel to the heathens. Back when historians wrote to be read, “The Bible and the Flag” looked at missionaries’ role in building the British Empire. These were love-the-world do-gooders, many of them openly ANTI-Imperial, but they would never dream of making British citizens out of Indians and Zulus. They easily squared that circle. WMB also involves raising the condition of the natives (and missionaries spent as much time going on about “Darkest London” as they did “Darkest Africa”). You want hyphen-Americans to be just-Americans? Teach them how!! Take up the white man’s burden….
Or send them back to where they originated from.
There are two broad currents flowing through our society as we navigate the turbulence of our times. One, as reflected in this blog, is the notion that we will talk our way into a course correction and consequently the task at hand is to optimize that process. The second, which frequently lurks in the subconscious mind of most productive people, is the idea that the dead-wight fraction of our population has already reached critical mass and messy upheaval is in the offing, so best to be prepared. We are descended from the survivors of our evolutionary past, and the next round of survivors should also be the best of us.
You can’t build anything stronger than a ginger bread house with both those groups mentioned in this post. The current system’s collapse is an unstoppable process, so the smart money is moving to get ready to ride out the final phase. Maybe a post on how to best do that…
I think the alt-right is going to have to stick with arguments from self-preservation. Moral arguments are arguments from power. If you lack power, you do not get to redefine the moral rubric. The most effective way to harness moral arguments is to use them against the powerful by decrying them as insufficiently orthodox. Aside from egging on Progressives into ever more ostentatious displays of anti-white hatred, the only thing to bet on is the aforementioned take-over of the self-preservation instinct.
To this end, I think directly appealing to either Christians or Civic Nationalists is folly. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.
The martial spirit and Christianity can and obviously have been reconciled in the past, and not just reconciled, but mutually supportive of each other. European history is rife with terrible, fratricidal wars between whites very much like each other, but there are also instances of Europeans killing to defend Western civilization (keep the lights on, as you say) and doing it in the name of Christ. Anything Catholocism pre-Vatican II (Jesuits helped form Pat Buchanan’s worldview, Mel Gibson has been thumbing the Jewish power structure in the eye for awhile) and Eastern and Greek Orthodox are compatible with a defense of whiteness and Western Civilization (a bit of a redundancy). I have evangelicals in my extended family who aren’t there yet, but as the left’s nudging turned to shoving they seem ready to shove back a bit.
I’m Christian, and also sympathetic to the Alt-right. God created the nations, so I don’t think there is necessarily a contradiction in wanting to maintain our nation and not see it turned into a multi-racial, multi-cultural economic zone. Also, looking at the voting patterns of non-whites, it’s clear that although many are Christian, they vote for politicians who are entirely hostile to Christianity. A permanent Democrat supermajority (which is what we will have once whites are a minority) will mean dark days for anyone who is Christian.
“God created the nations”…
“although many are Christian, they vote for politicians who are entirely hostile to Christianity.”…
Also “My present enemies are invariably white people. All the others are second raters spun off by my enemies.”
There are some bridges, right there.
We’d better talk our way out of this.
The Russians got their constitutional republic, with a patriotic George Washinton-type president, after the shooting started. It lasted about a year.
Well done, and looking forward to the rest.
Before Africans and others were a mote in the Caucasian eye, and for two or three thousand years, whites have been going to extremes to subdue or exterminate other whites, not infrequently with people visually indistinquishable from themselves. If the rallying cry of white nationalism is enough to counter replacing our current population with others–doubtful–it has no future beyond that because it has never demonstrated one. My present enemies are invariably white people. All the others are second raters spun off by my enemies.
The greatest mistake is thinking that we must persuade. That we must discover and judge the right view.
It’s a waste of effort. It leads to screaming matches of “I’m right… no, I’M right!”
What does that actually accomplish?
I don’t care who’s righter, let’s just keep these bastards from murdering us.
Nothing.
Murderers? Which ones? The Left is certainly up for a little of the old ultra-violence but the completely incompatible Right Wing factions aren’t going to get along once the shooting starts any more than the Left and Right will
As I noted earlier abortion will be a key issue but there is going to be trouble for European Style Rightist like me who are fine with social democracy or abortion or gays and on hundreds of other cultural and religious issues .
I can totally see violence between say some Evangelicals and L.D.S, the former who have often told me they consider the LDS Satanists !
How we navigate that in an environment where the economy is in free-fall is the biggest challenge we face.
The Right needs to find a way to repeat the great compromise that founded the USA and that won’t be easy
As for the similar issue in Europe, simply expelling troublesome foreigners and putting and end to migration will solve most problems there, we don’t have that luxury
Hasn’t there been a determined effort by the Left to subvert and take over churches, since the Sixties? Clearly they’ve had some success, as witness the Episcopalians. Perhaps Alt-Right or Dissident leaders know this, and have pretty much discounted some, or most of them, as possibilities for exerting influence.
Yes, but not only since the sixties. It goes back to late-18th-century New England. It started to hit the mainline denominations recognizably in the late 19th / early 20th century.
A lot of it is built in. The Church of England/Anglican/Episcopal is built on the arrogated right of divorce by power in the form of Henry VIII. A church with sexual license as its very foundation was bound to end up being about sexual license in its entirety.
So important. You’ve nailed what we’ve been tiptoing around, unsure of our approach.
Religion and military must be included because they aren’t going away.
The militant atheists must think insults and snobbish accusation explain things, too arrogant and emotional to realize that the religious feel as right as do they.
Both hold the exact same belief- that the other is wrong. So who is right?
If both get the same result, then we’re seeing a function, not a verity like the shear strength of a bolt. Yes it’s relative. Both are right, both are wrong. What they share is the function of social emotion, of belief.
A way for seculars, like myself, to approach religious or patriotic faith without the gut reaction of hostility is to understand- it is a dialect.
A dialect forms and is formed by a worldview. It is a framework to deal with the world. All frameworks work to varying degrees- I see them simply as Android versus Apple: both get the job done.
If we are aware that our instinct is to have a gut reaction, we can expect and counter that reaction without wasting our energies defending an instinct.
Zman, you’re a captain. Captains point the direction the ship should go, then ask the crew, “Well, how you gonna get us there?”
(Note to husbands- this is true of balky first mates and kid crews as well.)
That’s why I come here first.
Captain Z is plotting the necessary course and getting us to lay in provisions.
Relevant to this discussion:
https://damianmichael.com/2017/06/15/what-christians-should-really-know-about-the-alt-right/
https://damianmichael.com/alt-christianity/
Cheers.
Yes, it’s quite relevant.
” Christians, and I’m thinking primarily of non-denominational Christians, place their relationship with Jesus Christ as their primary identity. That’s an obvious conflict, as nothing in Scripture backs the primary arguments of the alt-right. Even the most expansive reading of Scripture cannot arrive at a pro-white position.”
I don’t think it is an obvious conflict. What is neither commanded nor prohibited is permissible, but optional. Having primary identity as a Christian does not prevent having secondary identities that, although subordinate, are taken very seriously.
We are commanded to love our neighbors as ourselves. In behaving decently toward my neighbor, I have no desire to prevent him from having a special attachment to his kin — his nation, if you will. Therefore, I expect him to afford me the same opportunity and dignity.
I’m a Christian and fairly alt-right (from what I can tell of that pretty squishy definition). I’m not exactly a very conventional Christin, but here’s my take on a couple points:
There’s also the fact that many Christians are fanatical supporters of Israel.
God is the all-powerful God of the universe. If he wants to look out for Israel, he is and always has been perfectly capable of handling that on his own. God has never come to me in a burning bush and said “Defend Israel,” and nothing in the New Testament indicates that it is my duty to do so.
Then there is the egalitarianism that many Christians have internalized as part of their relationship with Jesus Christ. They believe they are called to treat all men as children of God.
Treating all men as children of God does not conflict with treating a moron like a moron.
” God has never come to me in a burning bush and said “Defend Israel,” and nothing in the New Testament indicates that it is my duty to do so.”
Agree. Most of the members of my congregation regard Israel as just one more foreign country, with no religious significance to us.
“Treating all men as children of God does not conflict with treating a moron like a moron.”
Well said.
I think I’m in a similar place. I’m not a fanatical supporter of Israel, on the other hand, I’ve liked all the actual Israelis I’ve met and we do have the same enemies.
I find antisemitism distasteful so if it does become a centerpiece of the alt-right, you can count me out. I bet that goes for many like me.
I’m on the same page as Drake.
Me too. When we get rid of our political criminals, then we might point a finger at Israel. Long after we point it at many others, like the UN.
On the other hand, if “antisemitism” means “anything other than our current policy of knee jerk support for Israel regardless of what they do, oh and you’re not allowed to talk about the blatant tribalism and nepotism amongst Jews in coastal Progressive America”, then there are suddenly a TON of antisemites running around, and I see nothing wrong with that.
Correction time. To be called “children of God” requires the acceptance of Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Savior of believers souls. That is the criteria and does not include all people unless they have done this.’We are all children of God” sounds good but in itself requires no commitment.God requires the commitment. You’re welcome.
So I take it you agree ‘Jews’ are therefore not “children of God”.
Is that ‘antisemitism’?
I’d rather be a Christian than Alt-Right, or anything else. For what it is worth.
You love God and you love your country.
I think we can work together.
You need to choose a political movement that provides you a safe place to remain a Christian.
Amen