The Narcotic of Minor Celebrity

Last year I started showing up at dissident events and I started to interact with some of the important figures on-line. The main reason was to get to know some of these people a little better. You get a better sense of people when you see them in person and interact with them. Frankly, I figured if I was getting quoted and linked to by people in this thing, I should meet them and get to know them. It turned out that many of these people wanted to meet me.

Now, I’m no rock star so it’s not as if people are chasing me down the street looking for a selfie or autograph. Even so, it is flattering to have someone walk up to you and thank you for your efforts. I was approached at a bagel shop recently by someone who recognized my voice and decided to see if I was the man behind the voice. I’m not very good at handling these encounters. I usually resort to false modesty, as I don’t have a lot of experience with it. I also have no great desire to be famous.

Now, there are very famous people, who are very good at being famous. They enjoy it and they know how to handle it. I once saw a famous guy do selfies for fans, while carrying on a conversation with a friend. My guess is the truly famous, the people most everyone recognizes, look at celebrity in the same way that most of us look at filling out a time sheet or an expense report. It’s just a part of the job. Those fans asking for selfies are they are just part of the package.

On the other hand, minor celebrities are obsessed with getting noticed. A guy like Milo is a good example. His glib homosexual routine was a good compliment to his writing at Brietbart, but then he got a little famous. The desire to see himself on TV and internet had him doing increasingly nutty things to get attention. Whether you are a fan of Milo or not, he has real talent, but it has come to a sad end for him. His desire for fame exceeded his ability to maintain it.

Milo’s story arc is a familiar one, but the proliferation of social media has brought a new version of this, the e-celeb. Mike Cernovich is probably the best example. He has no real talent for anything, as far as anyone knows, but he is good at getting attention on social media. One of the things you can’t help but notice is how much he obsesses over his follower count and impressions on Twitter. Followers and friends is the coin of the realm, so all of the internet celebrities focus on growing those numbers.

This lust for recognition is certainly at the root of the endless in-fighting we see among the alt-right personalities. An alt-right person gets some traffic to their YouTube channel and before long they are picking fights with everyone they used to call allies. Because the drama results in more traffic, it becomes a feedback loop. The uptick in traffic releases endorphins in the brain of the e-celeb. It’s like crystal meth for these guys as each hit increases their craving for the next hit.

Another side of this is the leaders are picked from the pool of people desperate for attention. Some glib or photogenic person pops up on social media and they attract a crowd. Before long, the other e-celebs are inviting him onto their platforms to get some second hand traffic. The result is the influential people are being selected for their vanity and lust for celebrity, rather than intelligence or mental stability. That’s why more than a few weirdos have turned up as alt-right celebrities.

It’s possible that this benefits dissident politics in the long run. The dominant media has a filtering mechanism to make sure no one with unclean thoughts ever gets access to their platforms. The result is a dreary sameness. The breathtaking lack of self-awareness scares off more people than it convinces. The people who survive the e-celeb gauntlet and establish themselves as trusted voices, could turn out to be much more shrewd and savvy as a result of it.

A guy like Nick Fuentes is a good example. He has a creepy maturity to him that has gained him a lot of attention. He’s like Bill Mitchell in a child’s body. He’s an alt-right version of the movie Big. While he does a fine job on his YouTube shows, he often goes onto social media and posts stupid and childish things. People who talk about their IQ on social media tend to be mentally unstable. On the other hand, Fuentes is a kid so maybe he figures it out and gets better.

That said, it could be that new media and social media have evolved in a way that allows the people in charge to keep challengers out on the fringe. Instead of smart subversives quietly doing what it takes to weasel into the orthodoxy, they are having purse fights with e-celebs and disqualifying themselves in the process. Since your internet activity is now part of your permanent record, all those youthful mistakes will later be used against you as an adult.

In other words, YouTube is a favela for political and cultural dissidents. The people dominating the space will be narcissistic attention whores, willing to do and say anything to get views. The result is they drive out anyone with ability, so outsider politics remains a land of unwanted toys. The narcotic of minor celebrity is not a byproduct of the communications revolution, but a product of design. Either way, the narcotic of minor celebrity is the new opiate of the masses.

116 thoughts on “The Narcotic of Minor Celebrity

  1. Your repetitive use of “this thing” is irritating. It brings to mind the mafia’s name for themselves in Sicilian, “our thing” or Cosa Nostra”.

    You’ve already explained that you don’t like the terms “alt-right” and “white nationalist”, I believe you settled on “dissident right”, which is almost adequate, and certainly far preferable to “this thing”.

    To me “dissadent right” is a big tent. It includes everyone from Milo to Spencer, but it’s increasingly held on to by people anxious to maintain some level of mainstream acceptability. Jordan Peterson is the poster child for the dissident right.

    You write from a White Nationalist or identitarian POV, but remain unwilling to admit it.

    It’s a little odd, but we are used to it

    • Hey Joe, when the tab dissident right is extinguished, as it will be someday, what are we going to call this thing? And yes, our movement is mainstream acceptable just not currently mainstream admissible. Creeps like Milo are useful but are not part of our thing and the freakshow never will be acceptable to us as a part of our thing. I set your big tent afire.

  2. —” People who talk about their IQ on social media tend to be mentally unstable.”

    Theodore are you listening?

  3. I’m late to this party, but in support of Z’s observation about minor celebrity, My brother in law makes regular appearances on a long running “reality” TV show. Since he has been appearing on this show he thinks he is the second coming of Michael Jordan. His social media handles go by “thereal’firstnamelastname'” as if he is an A-lister and there are people out there looking to profit from impersonating him. It’s pretty obscene how important the thinks he is while he’s always been kind of a douche, since then he is insufferable.

    • Sooner or later comes the moment when his response to a situation or affront will be “don’t you know who I am?” And they won’t know who he is.

  4. Zman, the fringe is slowly becoming the mainstream. Youtube is slowly morphing into what can only be described as a “network channel”. Genres of film and literature that are floundering in the mainstream are thriving on the net, and the work is mostly being done for free by amateurs producing near professional quality work. There is something profound going on, but it’s hard to map out it’s width and breadth.

  5. Vox Day behaves as one may expect given his father’s trajectory and the likely parenting job delivered by such an accomplished yet odd duck. He’s producing tools for the dissident right that can be quite useful. I can learn from VD and I tune in although I do find certain traits annoying, particularly the narcissism.

    I have speculated whether VD lives there in Italy because Pa VD left behind a hidden fund in Switzerland that requires in person retrieval of funds withdrawals and the US might seize attempted wire transfers. Of course there are other reasons for living in Italy and it’s none of my business.

      • Very interesting stuff, and clarifies a lot about Vox.
        His dad was a very smart developer, engineer and businessman who created several successful, multimillion dollar companies before going completely off the rails and eventually ending up in Federal prison as a “tax protester” who had ordered extra judicial arrests and assassinations with a cadre of fundamentalist followers.
        Goes a long way in explaining why Vox doesn’t, or can’t, live in the U.S.

  6. Since your internet activity is now part of your permanent record, all those youthful mistakes will later be used against you as an adult.

    Skin in the game.

  7. The Ted Baxter link was good for a laugh. More than I can say for any recent sitcom.

  8. The clue to the whole thing is how much a person injects himself into the conversation at hand. If the conversation stays on the subject, then the speaker is probably mostly a normal person. When the conversation constantly circles back to being all about the speaker, then the speaker probably has got some real issues in there. Trump suddenly jumps over that line frequently, usually in the middle of an otherwise expository sentence, which is part of what can make him so uncomfortable. Of course, he’s nothing compared to Barack or Hillary, the attention whores of the century. Rush on the radio is pretty deft at putting himself in the middle of things and getting away with it. Mark Steyn does that dance too. Other talk show people try to do Rush’s style and it doesn’t come off so well. Z-man, to your credit, you are great at keeping things on subject, and still getting your points of view in there. Gerard Van der Leun, at American Digest, (and who posts here) does a great job of sharing intense personal experiences at his blog, yet still not making the blog all about him. What is really being talked about here today, is that insecure or needy people do hijack their part of the web to make it all about themselves. Doesn’t mean they don’t have some good observations and insights. But you don’t need to buy what they are selling, which is really themselves and their own little self-esteem issues, above all.

    • I’ll talk about myself when it adds color to a story or furthers some other point. Declaring yourself an authority and then citing yourself is boorish. Greg Cochran is the smartest person on the internet, yet he never appeals to himself as an authority, even when he is the authority.

      • I’ve always been of the “show don’t tell” school of demonstrating personal worth and value and wish more people were the same.

  9. I just found out from a commenter that our tiny little group blog with 9 readers has been blocked as a “hate site” by US Cyber Command (you, Zman, apparently only a “personal blog”). I’ll keep you posted on whether or not this success goes to my head – you’ve got 65 to the nth power more readers than we do, but only we are US government certified haters.

    • I’m blocked at most government offices. What’s happening is the firewall makers are starting to maintain banned lists of sites. That means your company does not ban a site. The service they rely upon for content filtering does it.

      They learned all this when helping China set up its internet infrastructure.

      • Damn it! I thought I’d one-upped you! I am just insanely jealous with rage and jealousy now. I must now post a whole bunch of anti-Z Man screeds, and sic our nine readers on you!! (Since apparently that’s what we do in Our Thing now). (n.b. ot casual readers: that’s a joke — we’re all huge Z Man fans, and since “a US Cyber Command-certified hater” isn’t the unique credential I thought it was, I’m going back to my old motto: pas d’ennemis a droit.).

      • I actually think this might be Cloudflare. I think it was funded by the NSA and the US Gov like Google and Facebook. Cloudflare is being used to remove anonymity and privacy from the Internet … try using Tor to browse around and remain anonymous … and you’ll find that they have already made much of the internet useless, blocked with Captcas that you cannot get past.. US Gov: if you want to guard your privacy … we will make sure you can do nothing.

        The internet has a new Evil (not just google) … everyone should hate Cloudflare … if they don’t already.

  10. VD is a hustler. In both the good and bad definitions of the word. Severian said once that Vox is a troll, first and foremost. I didn’t understand that at the time, but watching him try to pick fights with people makes you realize that he’s in it for the click count and the internet name recognition. Hey, any publicity is good publicity in the age of the 15 minute fame, right? He promotes his brand, which is a source of income for him. If you’re going to live in Venice, you’re going to need mucho shekels. He has his own publishing house and promotes his stable of authors, as well as his own books. I even seen him go after you, Zman. But, I find his on-screen arrogance to be in conflict with his on-screen true Christian believer bit. I wonder about his stable of true believers on his site. I mean, their is definitely some hero worship going on there. I wonder if any of those Vox disciples are just Vox playing a role to imprint his “intelligence” and “infallibility” on the web.

    • I also said he’s a truly *excellent* troll. I’ve learned a lot about building a personal brand watching him work (my interest in personal brand-building is strictly academic, for the record). As I understand his beef with Jordan Peterson (and my interest in this is just a tick or two above absolute zero), he thinks Peterson is bought-and-paid-for opposition — a kind of YouTube version of David Brooks’s gig at the New York Times. Whether or not that’s true (either his belief or my analysis of his beliefs), beefing with Peterson undoubtedly drives traffic his way… which has to help. Correlation is not causation, of course, but this whole “I am in no way doing this for the traffic” thing sounds like protesting too much to me.

      • Cerno does the same thing. He targets people with an audience and then trolls them, hoping their audience will notice him. The e-celeb also uses the front runner act. They see a parade, rush to the front and declare themselves the parade leader. Cerno was on the male feminist/sexual ambivalent thing. Then he was PUS. Then alt-lite and MAGA. Then he was going to be Alex Jones and then it was Tony Robbins. It works, as Cerno is well known, despite no one knowing why he is well known.

        That’s why I think the in-fighting we see on the alt-right among the e-celebs is self-correcting. Some will move onto other fads. Some will be revealed as loons. Some will mature and get good at being in the public eye.

        • Cernovitch is a gadfly, albeit entertaining though in an occasionally jarring way.

      • You also said Vox was fighting “the good fight” and was essentially on our side.

        • So I did. He’s pro-Western Civ, which means he’s on the side of the angels. It’s quite possible to be both a) on the right side and b) so annoying to your own side that it’s almost not worth it… and he skates right up to that line (and, indeed, seems to enjoy it – he trolls his own followers as often as he does the Left).

    • I agree that Vox can be irritating at times (well, OK, a lot of times) but he is actually one of the few people in our thing who has actually tried to set up alternative Alt-Right institutions, along with Andrew Torba (PBUH). Castalia House, Infogalactic, whatever it is that he calls his comic-book thing; these are real things that actually have potential, and they wouldn’t be there if it weren’t for Vox. So while I wish that he would tone down the “Wyl E. Coyote – Super Genius!” act a bit, and stop attaching people who are on our side, Like Torba and Z, as Lyndon Johnson once said about someone – I’d rather have him inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in

    • ” If you’re going to live in Venice”- Vox doesn’t live in Venice but in Lombardi region according to himself. I think he lives close to Bergamo that is also close to Milan. There is very good flight connection to the rest of the world and fast train connections to the rest of Italy and Europe. The region Venice is in is more closed. They speak another local language -Friulian/venician that can not be understood by Italians. Separatism has been strong in that region for the same reason. My italian family have lived in both regions and my father can speak Friulian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friulian_language

  11. Man is a social animal. We watch the herd for clues. It’s the rare person that can go through life, following their own path.

  12. ** That’s why more than a few wackos ” have streaked across the alt-right sky ” over the last couple of years **

    My favorite line. 🙂

    Always dismayed about the dissension amongst the conservative , right wing, alt-right, etc.

    The left embraces all their weirdos and makes no apologies. Like the crazy uncle at the family picnic that nobody pays attention to and pretends nothing’s wrong. White’s always fracture along the lines of who’s a gun nut, a religious nut, a racist etc.

    Find competent people to represent the right and stop the petty in fighting.

  13. My first exposure to this Fuentes fellow…reading his gab for even five minutes was exhausting.

    • His live act is very good, too good actually. A 19-year old should not talk like that, but otherwise he is very good for our time in that role. Let’s see if he stays in that lane over the next five years.

      • When you start your interviews for this site, you should include him. (nudge, nudge)

  14. re: Milo

    Our host as usual is spot on.;

    Thing is like Peterson he’s not .Alt Right but .Alt Lite , turning wheels for Right leaning GBLT types and a voice that allows them to realize that the current Right doesn’t really hate them any more and the society they’d build would be safer for them with the worse case scenario, they get back into the closet with the worst case scenario on the Left being horrible death by ISIS

    In any case since Milo is you know gay and seems kind of a femme if that term isn’t declasse and was a sexually abused as a young man by a gay man, he’s going to have some lapses in judgment from time to time

    He’s a decent enough guy for all that though his 15 months of fame are probably up. I don’t think he has much to say

    Frankly this is the same issue for every YouTube’r out there and every E Celebrity. Unless you want to react to the news day in and day out you are going to run out of stuff to say.

    • I’m fond of pointing out that the gay part is just the part of the iceberg we see. There is often a much larger body of mental illness under the waterline. That’s not the case with all gays, but usually the flamboyant ones.

      • Right, Eisenhower didn’t purge the State Department and Defense Department of homosexuals due to “homophobia,” he knew that gays were, and are, much more likely to be neurotic and have more mental problems (for whatever reason) than are straights. Also, in the context of the 1950’s, they were also much more blackmailable, and the KGB had a long history of doing such things. Milo has a lot of guts, and I wish him well, but he’s obviously not all that tightly wrapped.

  15. A few points. 1) Z: “Fuentes has a creepy maturity to him that has gained him a lot of attention.” Using the word “creepy” and “attention” was a sharp blow, but deserved. Your comments on him remind me of the lion who bites his annoying cub a bit too hard, just to let him know he’s out of line. And that he’d better get back IN line. Strong signal you put out. I hope he takes heed.

    2) Z on Milo: “The desire to see himself on TV and internet had him doing increasingly nutty things to get attention.” Yes. Milo’s thinking should have been, “I’ve made it big on smarts and brash behavior. They’re going to try and cut me down now. This is the precise moment to reverse expectation and get more serious and less nutty. I have the intellect to play serious well.” Flawed character. Gays love crossing the line. I can’t hate the little fellow though. I hope he makes it back.

    3) Zman you’re going to be our Secretary of State someday. Please keep yourself together until then. Us commenters can be annoying as hell. A few weeks ago you said you needed some time off. If you need to do this, please do. We’ll need you big time when the time comes.

  16. I think it’s the curse of the VSP (“Very Serious Person”) that would cause someone to regard an alt-right or fringe person as less stable than someone close to the centers of power. That stamp-of-approval/imprimatur from the Cathedral is the only thing that makes Bibi Netanyahu with his charts and curtains seem less crazy than Glenn Beck with his chalkboard. Is a Nick Fuentes or a Richard Spencer (or hell, even a Milo) really anywhere near as crazy as a “moderate” center-right or center-left person invested in the invade the world/invite the world policy? Nancy Pelosi has a look on her face like Jim Carey in the old Fire Marshall Bill sketches. Some of it is the botox, but I think she’s also nuts. And I’ve been around kids with Downes Syndrome who bag groceries, who have more decorum and a better inside voice than Bernie Sanders (I don’t mean to offend people who seriously have special needs children, by comparing them to democrats).

    • Why, he really is of no consequence. Odd bird, remember his mohawk look byline at World net daily. Even then we were reminded of his Mensa membership.
      Doing well on an IQ test as a major accomplishment.

    • Oh, the soyboy would rather queue up behind a nevertrumper?

      It must really kill you to see your gods develop feet of clay.

      You cannot bring him down by destroying his rep. He doesn’t have much of a rep to destroy, outside of his publishing…

      And Frankly, his writers are extremely good. Rod Walker, especially, is one of my new favorite writers. What are you going to do, claim he’s diddling kiddies or something?

      Not me. Vox is a dick, but he’s still doing a hell of a lot better job than the alternatives.

      • I’m wont aim my rhetorical guns Right and you shouldn’t either.

        Even though Vox Day is abrasive, he’s on our side till the bitter rend which is good enough for me.

        Vox is also one of the only people in the .Alt Right with any grasp of the need for ideology . His 16 points while not brilliant are at least a coherent set of ideas and that’s more than nearly anyone else has.,

        Despite his personality he’s more of asset for the .Alt Right than .alt Lite Jordan Peterson is. JP is useful but he’s training wheels.

        Anyway the lack of ideas is killing the Right BTW, even the SJW’s have an ideology, intersectionalism , its cultural communism and as such utterly unworkable but its something and they’ve proven willing to fight for it, sacrifice for it to a level I don’t see on the Right

        I respect that;.

        The Right is well got a way to go to catch up and until they go there, understand what they will kill and die for, they can’t get power.

        As far as attacking Vox Day. You know that song about tugging on Superman’s cape and spitting into the wind? Its like that. I’ve read his blog for several years and he’s the kind of person you’d expect from a a guy with his own Evil Legion of Evil

        I’ve seem him publicly go to war with his enemies, all legal,, all above board with and without the Legions help . Trust me and you do not want the Dark Lord’s Eye on you.

          • Do you know of anyone who has come to dissident right politics via Jordan? I’m afraid he’s more of a Ben Shapiro-like barrier than a gateway. Although i will always acknowledge the guts it takes for an establishment guy in Canada to refuse to use the designated pronouns for the sexually deranged. He is risking fines and jail, I think.

          • Yes we do .

            And LineinTheSand that is a good question,. Its also not a coincidence that Shapiro and Jordan are now bunky buddies in the media

            They are trying to save this rotten system, understandable as they are both Nomenklatura , this system has to go and can’t be saved.

          • Nonsense, you have to be firmly far right and a bit of a masochist to listen to his long-winded, rambling, stammering, and often nearly incoherent diatribes.

            No, he’s not a gateway for normies, he’s simply a reinforcer for lefties trying to pretend they are right wing.

    • im sure Vox is quaking in fear at the very thought of being taken down by a loser like you.

  17. There are very few people that can be honest with themselves about their limitations. Hence getting way over their skis and ending up as a yard sale. All the guys I worked for in business that got “fuck you money” far preferred a memo or a phone call for anything delicate. Stayed off email conversations that were anything but “just the facts”.

    On the other hand if you ever want to monetize your minor celebrity, happy to buy the steak and whiskey dinner of your choice.

    • It’s nice when people go out of their way to tell me they appreciate the effort. It means a lot, but I’ve never had a lust for fame. It seems like an odd thing to lust after. Money and sex make sense. Status in your peer group or industry makes sense. Fame just seems a bit pointless to me, but I’ve never been famous. Maybe it is great and I don’t know what I’m missing. Still, it’s easier to just do what I’m doing. I fill a niche and that’s important.

      • The thing about the lust for fame is what an effeminate trait it is. Milo obviously has his reasons for acting effeminately, but I think that’s the reason several of the alt-right/lite attention seekers come off as being a little… strange. There’s just something off-putting about a man who constantly seeks attention. Cerno creeps me out that way, too.

        I was never a close follower of Vox’s stuff. The last time I got on Gab I saw he and Space Bunny were in some kind of stupid spat with some other attention whore who had insulted SB’s honor or something (unfortunately, this is Gab in a nutshell).

        The only people in our thing worth paying attention to are guys like you, Sailer, Cochran, and Derb. Basically, guys willing to put their heads down and do the yeoman’s work of getting the right answers to big questions, and then laying those answers out for the masses to find when they’re ready.

        • Do you believe that the arguments of Sailer, Cochran, and Derb are sufficient to reverse our course of white dispossession? If not, they cannot be the only people we pay attention to.

          • I’m pretty blackpilled – there isn’t going to be a course reversal. The best we can hope for is damage mitigation.

            The writers I mentioned are read by influential people. That will be important as the Brazilification of the U.S. progresses.

      • I think the desire for fame is the desire for immortality and in a secular culture only the famous are Immortal. The rest of us just die and turn to dust

  18. Have you seen Vox Day going nuclear on Jordan Peterson lately? Something very strange about it. What’s your take?

    • I’ve seen that as well. Jordan had his time in the spotlight over the past year, but his star is now starting to fade.
      Vox has latched onto some inconsistencies in Jordan’s worldview and is going absolutely ballistic.
      Vox is a really odd figure on the dissident right. He is bright, but deeply impressed with himself in a very narcissistic, egotistical way, and never hesitates to scream about his IQ and supposed debating skills.
      He lives in Italy, despite not being Italian, and never tells anyone why he made this significant move with his family.
      He hits most of the right notes when it comes to ethno nationalism, but he can be such an insufferable prick that it makes it hard to stick with him.
      Strange bird, Vox Day.

      • I don’t know how many Z Blog readers remember Larry Auster of View From The Right, but Vox Day sure reminds me of Larry. Very relentless when on the attack.

        • I corresponded a bit with Auster, years before he took sick and died from a sudden onset cancer. His monograph, “The Path To National Suicide” helped clarify my visceral rage against non-white immigration into more coherent thoughts (though leaving the rage intact). He was a key figure in the 90s, who spoke at the first American Renaissance conference (if I recall correctly), to whom both Derbyshire and Brimelow have paid tribute. He was also insufferably touchy and…relentless (as you say), though that’s also too nice a word.

          Oh…wait a sec…you already know that. So….yeah, I remember him! 🙂

      • Eh, I don’t think he’s strange at all. He’s the stereotypical bully, covering up for his insecurities by bragging how he’s tougher/smarter than everyone else, likely rooted in some anxiety issues.

        He is very intelligent, and you see it when he’s analyzing something outside himself (e.g. literature). But talk about anything that remotely touches on his own status, and he utterly flies off the handle, and you see insecurity and immaturity.

        He sees Peterson getting all this attention, while his own star, and those of his confreres Cernovich and Milo is kind of flat or dimming, and so he goes on the attack. The giveway is that he never simply says “so and so is wrong about X,” or “there are some good ideas here, but they forgot about Y” … it’s always that the person is a liar, morally deficient, a complete moron, etc.

        He’s the smartest person ever, and everyone except he and his closest pals are all evil and/or stupid. That’s the kind of mentality I’m accustomed to seeing in intellectually gifted 14-year-olds.

        • Agree. There’s quite a bit of projection going on in the way he gets hyper defensive about the slightest criticism and yet relentlessly criticizes everyone and anything on the slightest pretext.
          He’s really yearning for some acknowledgement from someone of Peterson’s stature, and surely won’t get it as Jordan has better things to do.
          Vox is the embodiment of the gamma male archetype he always refers to when attacking guys who won’t give him the time of day.

        • Eh, Vox is a fervent Christian convert and this colors every single thing he does, knowingly or unknowingly

          He and the rest of the Deus Volt crowd have no mental map of the West that doesn’t involve Christianity and people like Peterson who are culturally somewhat Christian but promote a gnostic (self understanding) path tend to cause the same freak out the Catholics had with Gnosticism

          They can’t cope with the fact that while its possible to make the West White again you can’t make the society suddenly religious again and while the devout seem to be well more devout, the rest don’t believe nearly as much and many won’t come back

          Longer term they’ll do what people always do, have a folk religion which for White people probably includes some kind of nature worship, spiritualism and the like,

          Truth is its no more possible to revive Christendom than the old Roman Religio Civicum or the Dodecada and unless i’m wrong the West will gradually become post Christian

          I agree with Vox on two points though

          1st that that Peterson is weak sauce, I have seen probably 2 or 3 dozen of his videos and have his book though I haven’t read it

          Its .Alt Lite sanitized to survive the mandatory niceness required of licensed professionals in Canada where he lives and works and even where he moves away from that, he’s not profound

          Still as an intro anyone could do a lot worse than Jordan Peterson

          I also think he’s a bit off , I’m not sure why. I like and respect the man but he makes my Spidey Sense tingle.

          • I’m a little skeptical of how much of a “Christian” he is. Not to question his personal faith, but AFAICT he’s not aligned with any specific denomination or tradition; read hundreds of his posts and never recall him mentioning going to church, or something his pastor/preist said or anything like that. It seems like he’s doing the cafeteria thing where he adopts the parts that appeal to him (e.g. the worldview and moral teachings) and ditches the parts that challenge him (e.g. the call to be part of a community of believers, the idea of putting oneself under any kind of authority).

          • It’s never a good idea to discuss another man’s religion. People believe all sorts of wacky things, none of which can be validated. It’s best to just skip past appeals to religious authority, unless you are living in a Muslim country.

          • I’ve gotta say, given what a lot of “Christian Religious Leader” are advocating these days, I can’t really fault Vos for not wanting to be under their authority. Lots of wolves in shepard’s clothing out there right now. Also, Vox is Evangelical, which has a much more diffuse authority structure than Catholicism or Orthodoxy.

          • Church is optional in Christianity. Matthew 18:20 ,

            Anywhere two or three of you are gathered in my name there shall I be,

            It would take him and his wife Spacebunny to fill the requirement

            And as for authority? Which one? The Deus Volt crowd in general sees most of the churches as corrupt or outright Satanic and given my experiences, they aren’t wrong

            Churchianity is a big problem.

            Besides if you believe Gallup just over 1/3 of Christians attend church regularly

            This is not something new through, Americans historically weren’t big in regular Church

            That said I agree with Z Man on discussing religion. Unless you believe the same stuff , its going to be weird to you.

          • Truth is its no more possible to revive Christendom than the old Roman Religio Civicum

            Currently, the Left singlehandedly polices academia for orthodoxy and plays a major role in driving tax funding for research. When the Left falls, everything they built falls with them. If the secular Right can’t make convincing arguments against intelligent design, atheism will be dead in three generations.

            Just as Civil-Rights-loving cuckservatives always forget that Civil Rights were only made possible by the Left, the secular Right always forgets that the academics who were using basic SJW tactics (long before SJWs were even a thing) to suppress research into human biodiversity were also using those tactics to suppress opposition to Darwinism and suppress arguments for New Testament historicity.

          • You do realize the New Testament could be historically accurate (and FWIW I’m agnostic leaning yes on the question) but the core premises of Christianity simply inaccurate for a passel of reasons

            Also atheism has doubled in numbers of late Its a silly thing to believe as compared to agnosticism but it is what it is,

            My guess is folk religions are the way of the future in the West , no orthodoxy, no churches , just traditions and beliefs handed down.

            There will be loads of them, remains of the New Age, Wicca, Asatru and other Heathenry , vaguely Christian things, Sacral Nature, Spiritualism and afterlife teaching, vague animism you name it, This is not harmful to people in any way. Its the norm before Christianity and its what we’ll revert too.

            The thing is y’all in the Deus Volt crowd are correct, Christianity is excellent software for a high trust larger society

            Maybe though they nations as configured are too large and artificial and ought to find a way to get back to natural bounds .

            This would also be a good thing since once the conditions for this are set, the world will get much bigger which will help everyone

            Its a Small World After All is hells own anthem .

          • You do realize the New Testament could be historically accurate but the core premises of Christianity simply inaccurate for a passel of reasons

            Not the core premises, no. If the NT is historically accurate, Jesus rose from the dead.

            There will be loads of them, remains of the New Age, Wicca, Asatru and other Heathenry , vaguely Christian things, Sacral Nature, Spiritualism and afterlife teaching, vague animism you name it, This is not harmful to people in any way. Its the norm before Christianity and its what we’ll revert too.

            That is what we’re seeing happen right now. The question of harm is irrelevant. People believe all kinds of harmful things because of how it makes them feel. The question is, when the Left’s political and cultural war machine is destroyed, whether paganism will be able to resist Christianity for more than three generations. That will depend entirely on the ability of the secular Right to argue in favor of anti-Christian truth claims. If they fail, then Christianity will be restored as the default intellectual position. Paganism is obviously never going to become intellectually serious.

            The thing is y’all in the Deus Volt crowd are correct, Christianity is excellent software for a high trust larger society

            Yes, but the great irony is that this is merely incidental. Christianity requires significant personal sacrifices (even if they are only mental ones), which is why no one really cares that Christianity apparently makes society better. You become a Christian because you believe, not because you want to contribute to a functional high-trust society.

            It’s probably worth pointing out that Romans 13:4 includes Christian traitors. Deus Vult means genuine Christians do not get a pass for siding with foreign occupiers, and no Christ did not make all the nations ‘one’. That is neo-Babelism. Christians should be the first to denounce Christian treason.

            Maybe though they nations as configured are too large and artificial and ought to find a way to get back to natural bounds .

            Heh. As you may have noticed, our evangelists have zero respect for ancestral religions. Even the Chicoms have had limited success in resisting the spread of Christianity. Missionaries will literally get themselves killed for the sake of the gospel. The only other ideology with that kind of commitment is Islam, but luckily our nations beat their nations.

          • Back from the dead is meaningless .People come back from clinic death all the time in hospitals.

            If you want to suggest people from 32 C.E or thereabouts knew more about medicine than we do and even had a snowballs chance in a furnace of knowing whether someone was dead or only mostly dead when we have trouble doing that in 2018, you are being absurd

            Also myths are full of people and gods coming back to life . The Norse Baldr will eventually and its Coyote’s stock in trade .

            Its not even that special on a mythical basis.

            Also its possible that Jesus was the son of Jehovah but that his Father was just another God claiming to be creator of the world . Even an impossible proof of something supernatural happening proves nothing alas.

            Also you do realize that the West is much less Christian than before. Do you really think a bunch of African or Latino or Chinese missionaries are going to reconvert the West

            And note not a single Christian nation other than Timor Leste or the C.A.R has high fertility and retention among integrated groups in the developed world is declining a lot

            Now its possible that Christianity may revive itself. I don’t know that it won’t but its just another religion and may well could be past its time in the West

            No one knows. However you play, you had better have a plan for a West without Christianity because at least in the short run people are getting less religious

            That aside the future happily will not be atheist , they have low fertility and retention well unless the Chinese or somebody gets annoyed enough to research removing religiosity at the genetic level and pulls it off

          • However you play, you had better have a plan for a West without Christianity

            The plan is nationalism for everyone, Christian or not. Politics have nothing in principle to do with Christianity; you don’t need the Bible to tell you that feminism, globalism, and socialism must be destroyed. However, it is worth pointing out that when you change the religion you change the civilization. Roman and Greek civilization came to an end and were replaced by Western Civilization when their religions were replaced with Christianity. Similarly, post-Christian Europe will be post-Western Europe.

            people come back from clinic death all the time in hospitals.

            We’ve heard it all before from the higher critics. Swoon theory, mass hallucinations, speculative theology, whatever. The point is, it’s not us your intellectual descendants will have to convince. They’ll have to convince the white masses. Otherwise, from the point that the Cathedral falls, atheism and paganism will be dead in three generations.

          • I agree with your first point 100%

            Atheism has been around for thousands of years though and will be for thousands more, Its never been popular outside the people who seem to biologically lack the religious sense before so I tend to agree though people will get more religious

            As far as Paganism , using the broadest description here, everything that is not Abrahamic or Eastern , eh it predates Christianity by I don’t know 30 millennium or more and will last long after Christianity is taken as seriously as Mithraism

            Now the current “West” won’t be the same without at least implicit Christianity, you Deus Volt guys are right about that, its fine. Something new so long as its genetically European should be interesting to say the least

            All that aside baring radical tech breakthroughs, as you noted neither you nor I will probably be around for it

            In any case so long as the European people survive, non Europeans expelled and the Commies are out of power, its fine.

        • wow, you sure are smart Sam. How you’re able to discern people’s motives without having to do all the drudgery of having to read or listen to any reasons they’ve given is truly impressive. Well done sir!

          • I didn’t claim to know his motives; I described his actions as I saw them, and speculated on the underpinnings. I’ve worked professionally with gifted but insecure kids, and Vox’s rhetoric and behavior reminds me of one of them. YMMV,

          • There are only about 3 -4 motives for all human behavior (maybe only 2 true motives). So it isn’t hard to discern which ones are at play, with Vox or anyone else.

        • VD was going on about epistemology in a very dogmatic way the other day. That’s one of the few things that I have a reasonably good knowledge of, and it was pretty clear that he was in over his head.

          • He’s in over his head as soon as he moves away from talking about comic books.

          • How do you know that you “have a reasonably good knowledge” of epistemology?

      • I’ve read Vox for years. He used to have something to say, and he said it well. But it is becoming increasingly clear that he is not fit to speak for the dissident right or even the alt-right anymore. He’s melting down on Peterson because Peterson is actually one of the last remaining classical liberals – and he can reach and connect with both sides of the political spectrum with some success while Vox cannot. Think of Peterson more accurately as ‘dissident left’. And – Peterson’s doing that right in the very heart of the proggie universe, where Vox is considered a village idiot or court jester.

        By contrast, Vox today is only connecting with cellar dwellers and kids that read comic books while the adults go on without him. Even the kids are starting to see his emotional issues and hang ups too, and he knows it.

        You are going to have to learn to speak publicly, in front of large crowds, Z, if you don’t already. Could you handle hecklers and think on your feet in such situations? Do you have skeletons in the closet that need to be dealt with, or ones that could be fabricated and left there? Unless you want to end up like Cerno and Milo… unfortunately, these may be things you need to think about.

        Perhaps “celebrity” is something that has to be carefully managed and handled like a career or reputation…

        • You are going to have to learn to speak publicly, in front of large crowds, Z, if you don’t already. Could you handle hecklers and think on your feet in such situations? Do you have skeletons in the closet that need to be dealt with, or ones that could be fabricated and left there? Unless you want to end up like Cerno and Milo… unfortunately, these may be things you need to think about.

          I’ve done a fair bit of public speaking. I’m quick on my feet so it comes naturally. That seems to be the key to effective public speaking. You can be trained to do disciplined presentations. Lots of sales guys learn how to demo their solution or service and do so effectively. But, that does not translate well to certain areas like advocacy. You need to be glib and quick on your feet. That said, I doubt anyone will be asking me to address their protest rally, so I don’t think about it. There’s no shortage of people willing to kill a man just for a chance to get on stage.

        • Another mind reader. Amazing how you too know Vox’s motives without actually reading what he says. No wonder he banned you.

          • As I said, I read him for years, and still do.

            But – look at what you see for yourself. The entire left wing of the political spectrum thinks he’s an idiot. Half of the Alt and Dissident Right does too. He will expound on how to argue and debate too, and how to use dialectic and rhetoric. Right. When 75% of the people he reaches think he’s an idiot.
            Jordan Peterson – a liberal – is taken far more seriously by far more people than Vox is. All this is a matter of public record – if I am misunderstanding something in this – please enlighten us.

        • You are right about Peterson’s role

          Peterson is as Vox Day noted is basically for broken people (proggies as you put it) not the rest of us

          This purple pilling is good work in my book but I hope people don’t stop there. They need the full Red Pill

          You also reiterated one of Vox’s points namely that Peterson is a Leftist and while this movement won’t shoot right, the Left is a legitimate rhetorical target and as such Peterson is.

          Vox Day is a bit deeper than you think though.

          He’s not some Internet schlub but has along and varied career and for quite a few years he was a nationally syndicated columnist and part of the edge of the mainstream filling a similar slot of Instapundit but on a bigger scale

          He got less Right Libertarian and more Christian and you get what you see know.

          I’d say he’s the unofficial thought leader of the high functioning geeks (as you noted) and the Deus Volt crowd as well .

          If you aren’t in those groups his current material won’t speak to you

          I used to comment regularly over there under the same name and I have tremendous respect for his work but I stopped when he required registration to keep out the trolls

          I’m not banned and I have an account under this name but I’m not that good a fit for the commentariat there as I’m not very religious and for example I think L.D.S. are good Christians , an opinion that could get me burned at stake .why bother

          All that long winded posting aside, the .Alt Right needs to understand its not a monolithic thing.

          Its an alliance of tribes that often don’t get along and a number of those tribes are ideologically incompatible with each other.

          many of them want nothing to do with anything of the Left, understandable after Charlottesville but this can screen out useful people like Peterson too. Hence the animosity

          The only reason we aren’t at each others throat is the Left is a bigger threat and all of us dissidents have more in common than we do with the Vile Progs (H/T Sara Hoyt)

          In the end when the Left is dealt out we’ll be able to settle our affairs but in the mean time, whatever you do, don’t shoot Right.

          • Hmmmmmm. Vox can and does punch right, and he’s done it after critiquing others for doing it. He’s attacked Gab, Z, and others so I don’t feel too bad about agreeing with the majority that thinks the man is an unlikable dolt.

            One thing we have to learn is that popularity counts. The man has started so many fights with so many good people (like Sarah Hoyt, for example) – that he’s become a liability.
            If you watch him carefully as I do – you will notice he lies, he doubles down, and he projects. When he gets caught at it he starts displaying what he calls ‘gamma male’ behaviour. I got banned when I laughed at him and his ideas about vaccination and immunology. The man does not like being caught out when he’s selling a pant load.

            I personally don’t think we need him. Those angry young men getting shafted by the new rules are on our side already; all Day does is radicalize them and make them liabilities like he is.

            He IS an interesting man. But, interesting men make for interesting times – which often isn’t a good thing.

      • “Jordan had his time in the spotlight over the past year, but his star is now starting to fade.”

        That implies that he’s simply celebrity. It’s more like he’s reached a current saturation point. He lays it on a bit rich so I hope he’ll keep a lower profile. I hope and think he’ll remain on the scene as a public intellectual. I never put him on a pedestal as he’s a mainstreamer, but realize he’s a general good for society. Vox Day is shooting fish in a barrel because he needs material and attention. Of course Jordan isn’t ideologically pure, big deal.

        I think Vox moving to Italy without explanation is pretty funny actually.

        They should make baseball cards with the major Alt-Right players with back-of-card stats & summaries.

        Background:

        Accomplishments:

        Estimated I.Q.:

        Stability quotient:

        Language Facility:

        Personality:

        Prospective Leadership Avg:

        Vox Day .157
        Nick Fuentes .259
        Jordan Peterson .265
        Gavin McInnes .240
        Jared Taylor .181
        Mark Collet .380
        Zman .333
        Jim Goad .131
        Marcus Follin .233

        • Why rate Taylor so low? There wouldn’t even be an Alt-Right without older guys like Taylor and Derbyshire

          • I respect Taylor. I just give him a low leader batting average because he’s a bit stilted. With his old fashioned demeanor I don’t see him attracting the younger vote in an election.

      • I used to read Vox too. I stopped reading when all I gleaned out his articles was how awesome Vox thinks he is. Right or wrong, he’s drowning in his own narcissism.

      • Strange bird, Vox Day.

        Indeed. He is fully independent and has a large network of successful, independent white male Christian supporters. He always tells the truth. He is producing real products for a real market. And, as the Hugo Awards demonstrate, he can throw a significant amount of weight around.

    • I read some Vox Day articles in the past, and I appreciate his SJW primer, but people who talk about their IQ constantly don’t seem to be putting their IQ to good use. I think almost all mainstream public intellectuals are “midwits,” as I think Vox Day’s coinage has it. Sargon also has that “kind of smart but a douche-bag” vibe.

      • Comic books, video games, japanese pop, fantasy novels. These are not the pursuits of a high level mind. He reminds me (strongly) Wyle E Coyote.

        • I’m keeping my finger off the down vote button, a man is entitled to his opinion

          Media is one the main weapons the Left uses and this vinegar drinking prude we are above that kind of fun attitude is what go the Right’s ass righteously kicked.

          No one wants to be around someone who answer to “What kind of fun do you like?” is “I don’t know but not that one.”

          The age for every man wants to be Joe Friday is long over and good riddance, While 40 is not the new 20, 52 is also not near death from old age like it was in the old days. We have time to be a bit silly and as long as we meet our obligations, so what? better playing Skyrim than a 3 martini lunch any day

          Also two of the most important Christian authors Tolkein and Lewis wrote fantasy novels and good ones.

          Unless you’ve developed your own patented mouse or programmed games and have come to the conclusion its “easy” you don’t know how hard this kind of work is. Its high level stuff.

          Comic books require a bit of effort too in case you’d care to try. I have scripted them and its not remotely easy. Editing and I’m editing my own work is evil.

          I think J Pop is a bit dorky but no more than NASCAR which is basically watching a bunch of guys drive in circles or watching Football or Basketball or anything else people do.

          Frankly if the guy is Wiley Coyote he has a pretty impressive resume and a lot of accomplishments

          Game designer, patent holder (the War Mouse) musician, syndicated columnist, award winning author and publisher along with the little stuff, soccer player , collegiate track star former marine and martial artist

          Oh and a lovely wife and a bunch of kids

          Sure Vox can be abrasive and a bit arrogant I think and runs a to jack of all trades I suppose for all that he’s a damned accomplished man.

          More importantly he’s a good Christian and he’s on our side.

      • Make a list of the great thinkers, which time has proven out. None were boastful. Great intelligence and humility are not natural allies, but it is the combination of those qualities that produces insight. That is why insight is so rare.

        • Nah. That only applies to being a moral person. Virtue signaling ought to be a capital offense,

          An example, Einstein was a total dog, no sexual loyalty, the morality of a rabbit . He was still brilliant and he wasn’t that humble

          In most cultures bragging is normal as they say in Texas , it ain’t bragging if you can do it.

          Assuming accomplished people should behave plainly, dress plainly and never show off a bit is Puritan horse dung and in this barbaric age, it can go.

          It will go, its strictly an Anglo thing anyway.

          Now that streak of Puritanism goes wide in this culture, otherwise sane people I I Know freak out over President Trump “Gold toilets, trophy wife and pro wrestler attitude but its perfectly normal everywhere

          As one Christian blogger I forgot her name said wisely Bling culture is human culture

    • I find vox exhausting too. Anytime I see dissident righters attacking each other I get exasperated at the waste of time and fundamental pettiness. Frankly I don’t care what these guys think of each other or what personal disagreements they may have. I didn’t start reading these blogs as a substitute for gossip mags: I’m here for ideas.

      Considering Jordan Peterson is not going to listen to race realists anyway and is unprepared to address the elephant in the room I don’t really see much point addressing him myself.

      He’s going to do his thing, we will do ours…like all whites at some point he will have to choose. Relative to Chad and Stacey he’s ahead of the curve.

      What else is there to say really?

      • After Anglin, the stupid Gab spat, and this it’s clear he starts them for the clicks.

        Short term its effective, long term the ones who aren’t cultists leave.

        • Anglin is a Nazi . While they can be tolerated as they are pro White the are not on our side. They lack message discipline and self control and are legitimate rhetoric targets

          Richard Spencer is a fucking globalist who loves the EU who just happens to be pro White .

          Pro Tip. letting foreigners into your country is bad been when they are of your race

          Democratic Workers and Socialism are not Right Wing at things period.

      • “He’s going to do his thing, we will do ours” works well for me. I’ve enjoyed and admired Peterson’s efforts very much, but. I saw him appear on a Bill Maher Star Court of five amigos, and lost much of my respect for him. He wants, needs, these metastasized faux intellectual brains to include him. He defends the opposition to Prog inc, as being not entirely stupid.

    • My guess is VD doesn’t have a college education, and that is the source of his unbounded insecurity. He is very sure of himself, but i have seen 0 evidence that he is actually above average intelligence. Ok, maybe 105.

      And you will never find a comment on his blog, that rises above the level of a 7th grader.

      • @Karl, true. Anyone who challenges him on merit gets perma-banned. The rest of the sycophantic meatheads get to stay

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