Ben Shapiro

A running debate on this side of the divide is over the utility of guys like Ben Shapiro, Jordan Peterson and other slightly edgy characters. The claim is that these types of insider critics of the prevailing order are a gateway to more radical thinkers on this side of the divide. A normie starts reading Ben Shapiro or listening to Jordan Peterson, and before long he finds his way to our team. There’s not much in the way of proof of this, just some anecdotes from people who swear that is how they made their journey to the dark side.

The counter argument is that these edgy guys serve as a palace guard, maintaining the line between what is and what is not acceptable. Their job is to make sure that none of the bad think from the outer dark creeps into the thought of the orthodoxy. As a result, they make a big deal out of opposing racism, sexism, antisemitism and homo phobia. The Four Olds figure prominently in their arguments, not as a way to inoculate themselves from the Left, but to make sure no one to their Right is allowed into the debate.

Both claims are right, depending upon the person in question. Take, for example, the Nick Nack of neoconservatism, Ben Shapiro. He’s fond of posting the sort of unhinged rants about the people to his Right, that we generally associate with feminist cat ladies. This should not surprise anyone, as the spiritual distance between a Ben Shapiro and a feminist campus harpy is not very big. He’s just as haunted by the Four Olds as anyone on the Left. He just finds it easier to make a living peddling old CivNat nostrums.

You see that in this post at National Review, where Shapiro appears to be defending bad think, but in reality he is engaged in an act of deception. He does not bother to go into the issues that get a Charles Murray or a Sam Harris in trouble. Instead, he shifts the focus from that to pumping air into his own tires. A few days later, his dear friend Bari Weiss is out promoting the so-called “intellectual dark web” which Ben Shapiro just happens to be part of, along with Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson. Funny coincidence, I’m sure.

Unlike a guy like Peterson or a Sam Harris, Shapiro is just another grifter from Conservative Inc. He’s the edgy band your parents said was OK, hoping you would not start listening to the stuff they thought was dangerous. That’s his utility to the managerial class. Instead of people noticing what happens to our guys when they try to engage in public debate, their eye is focused on how poor Ben Shapiro had to wait a whole hour while the campus police removed a few overwrought students from the auditorium.

That’s why Shapiro will drone on endlessly about how unfair it is that he does not get lucrative speaking gigs on state campuses, but remain stone silent on the endless harassment of Richard Spencer by the Left. Like all of Conservative Inc., he is for free speech that pays him well, but otherwise sides with Antifa against his competition. He’ll never talk about the fact that corporate America is willing to sponsor an Antifa convention in Chicago, but coordinates their efforts to prevent VDare from holding a private gathering.

Even though guys like Shapiro are explicitly opposed to us and are happy to lock arms with the Left against us, some still insist that they serve a purpose. This is true, but not for the reasons they claim. What a guy like Shapiro demonstrates is that there is an unbridgeable gap between the prevailing orthodoxy and the Dissident Right. There’s no middle ground between the blank slate and biological realism. Race is either an invalid social construct or a useful model of biological reality. There’s no middle ground here.

Ultimately, what a guy like Ben Shapiro tries to do is distract people from the real issues, by focusing their attention on the trivial. He starts from the premise that there is a real battle between the Left and some ideological alternative. That battle was over long before anyone reading this was born. The Right in America, for more than half a century, has simply been a modifier, a restraint, on the American Left. Shapiro’s job is to make sure otherwise sensible people never notice this. Otherwise, there will be a revolt.

Now, not all of these guys in the outer belt of the prevailing orthodoxy are members of the palace guard. Jordan Peterson is just an eccentric weirdo who suddenly got famous. He’s probably harmless and he may open doors to our side. A Gavin McInness, who is mostly an incoherent grab bag of cosmopolitan fads and libertarian jabberwocky, is at least willing to engage with our side. Most, however, are there as a barrier. Fundamental to the Dissident Right project is the destruction of Conservative Inc. and the palace guard.

99 thoughts on “Ben Shapiro

  1. Z,

    I have personally used Shapiro’s and Peterson’s YouTube videos as foreplay before directing friends to Derbyshire, Molyneux, and Taylor. I don’t know what evidence there could be besides anecdotes, but enough anecdotes equals a sample size. I’ve changed the minds of four friends that way.

  2. My gateway thinker (almost 20 years ago) was Pat Buchanan.
    I just know Shapiro as that anti-tranny guy.

  3. Peterson must be on to something if he’s pissing off both the Progs and about half the commenters here. As to Zman commenters, I think people such as Rod1963, Glen Filthie and Zorost are on the money with their take (from what I can tell) on Peterson. And I agree with Cain re Peterson and the Bell Curve/HBD/etc.. Are there things Peterson says, and seems to believe, with which I disagree? Certainly. But I am firmly convinced that he is doing considerably more good than bad overall.

    And for those who seem to be castigating Peterson for failing some sort of “purity” or “courage” test, keep this in mind: The man is an academic, and speaking openly under his own name. How many of the soi disant Brave and Pure here are posting under their own names, much less speaking openly and frankly about these very topics in the spheres of their professional lives? (And I am aware that I’m not using my full name either, thanks very much.)

    As for Ben Shapiro, no interest, no comment.

    • Well, I am not allowed to express any opinion on these topics in my professional sphere. My place of employment is fully converged and has a 20 page Code of Conduct. As an example: a badthinker in Charlottesville was wearing a shirt with the corporate logo on it; an email was sent company-wide that a full security investigation would be conducted and that the “white supremacist” would be rooted out; a week later another email was distrubuted that the badthinker was a non-employee but any association with “white supremacy” would not be tolerated.

      Just out of curiosity, how has JBP helped those defending him?

  4. I like the video where a tranny threatens Shapiro with a beatdown if he doesn’t quit calling it a he. Naturally Shapiro is also a coward, along with being a cuck. Ben, you should have taken the beating — it would have been great for ratings!

  5. No surprise the Alt-Right attacks Shapiro. He’s a Jew after all, and that can’t be tolerated. And Peterson hasn’t sufficiently blamed the Jews for what ails the West, so he must be thrown under the bus too.

    • Yep, that’s the only possible reason anyone could have to criticize Lil Benji. Or Peterson.

  6. The description of Gavin McInness is spot on. I used to read him at Taki’s mag. Even Kathy Shaidle was more interesting. I don’t see McInness as an enemy; merely uninteresting.

  7. I think it is wise to corral the forces of nature until such time as nature will no longer be bound by our attempts to civilize it. I welcome any reasonable attempt to tame the river of political discourse toward a purposeful and productive end. To let a river overflow its banks at-will may be very natural and self-justifying and safe– if we are distant enough from its force, but if we are attempting to build something lasting, we work to channel good energy into effective results, as time and peace afford it.
    Because, at some point, the deluge comes and the devastation will be catastrophic and no amount of boundary policing will suffice. I do not wish for that day or event. If this is considered, “policing the boundaries” then I am content to work to that end.

  8. Have to say the Z-blog and the opinions here are an education if you do the research on these people in question.

    Funny how a Ben Shapiro post has turned into a Jordan Peterson debate. Have enjoyed Peterson’s YouTube videos however Vox day does a good job of exposing him and his globalist agenda.

    The problem is when speaking to like-minded individuals they recognize Shapiro and Peterson but that’s about it.

    Like one other poster suggested this is where it begins. We have to carry the word in the schools, workplace and media.

  9. Recently someone on Twitter said he found Shapiro’s attempts to “police the borders of right wing discourse” tiresome. You could tell by Shapiro’s reaction that he’d struck a nerve. It was a good description, I thought.

  10. Shapiro is an “edgytarian” gatekeeper. Whoop deedoo, the Left shows up to protest him. He still gets to speak for the most part (Berkley is an exception but the crazy is strong there). Has Shapiro ever been in Twitter jail or demonetized by Youtube? I don’t like Spencer but he has been unpersonned and relentlessly pursued by the Left. The actions of TPTB indicate who are our potential allies in the war for civilization.

    Peterson is an interesting case. He’s a member of the Cathedral who has slightly gone off the reservation. If he starts people on a path that leads them to realism and the Dissident Right, then that’s great. However he has the ambiance of a gatekeeper as well. When directly asked about whether Whites should take pride in the accomplishments of our civilization, his answer was an unequivocal “no.” He later stated that we should take responsibility for the “wrongs” of our civilization. Doesn’t sound like an ally to me.

    • I think the many mis-reads of Peterson start with this: He isn’t here to please any particular political type. He got famous for refusing to be told how to speak. It was glorious! So he doesn’t kiss my political ass. That’s not why I listen to him.

      Most of the posters here seem to be focused on how Blackie is going to kill us. It may be true, Derbyshire’s “The Talk” for white kids is true, in my experience.

      Peterson is being very careful to keep himself alive, and no shit, it doesn’t make him a coward and fuck off if you blame him for it. He is fully aware of the Bell Curve. That’s not his schtick, and it’s none of my business to make it his business.

      He is very well versed in his field, and I find him to be endlessly useful in improving my own life. He’s not my ally in this fight. But he know his field, and it’s got little or nothing to do with this blog.

      • Hence my point about Peterson providing a “toolbox”. And the willingness to sit there and patiently pick the legs and wings off of any Prog/Marxist/Interstectionalist insect stupid enough to debate him. And manage to avoid being cast into the void. I’ll take that.

  11. I didn’t grow up around jews, and i am therefore confused by them. A tribe for me, but not for thee seems to be the biggest defect, if any. I Have been shocked by the rubins, kristol, goldberg et al hostility to Trump. It appears that white tribalism scares the hell outa them. Maybe understandable. Exceptions Do seem to exist.

    • Lewis Amselem over at Diplomad seems to really get it. His having worked at the State Department also means that he often offers valuable insights as to how things really work in the halls of government, much of it cringeworthy.

      • Yeah he’s one cool cat. He’s got a son that is impressive too. Saw some video’s where the kid was definitely giving off some hardcore dissident vibes. As in he-would-have-been-arrested-in london vibes. The link is his dads obit. His dad sounded like a hoot. That’s a bloodline to watch.

  12. The fundamental divide is not political or cultural, but existential. Shapiro is a parasite that had traded his free will for a handout. He is of no value to himself or anyone else. He could not survive in an environment of natural competition because he has nothing productive to offer. He is the equivalent of a leech and should be viewed as such.

  13. Anyone that gets the lefty thuggery pissed off is fine by me.

    If ANTIFA and BLM and college administrators get their knickers in a twist over his appearance on some Stalinist college campus, he must be doing something right.

    Yea, maybe Shapiro hedges his opinion here or there; so be it.
    There is nobody I have yet heard that I think perfectly elucidates my crazy notions of conservatism (e.g., I am all in for the existing US Constitution).
    But he is a lightening rod for leftist thugs as well as the MSM and his audience is far larger than many “conservatives” whose only forum is a web blog.

    At a minimum, he expresses views that, for the most part, are 180 degrees apart from the politically correct BS that is accepted as “normal” and maybe, just maybe, he will get some brain dead college students to actually utilize their primitive medulla oblongata and maybe even their cerebellum.

    In this category I will also place Candace Owens. She may turn out to be merely a bolt of lightening – to disappear into the ether within the next second or so – but she sure has riled up the lefty thugs and maybe has mobilized some folks to use their brains for the first time.

    Whatever and whomever upsets the MSM and the politically correct Stalinist group think totalitarians , IMHO , is a good thing.

    You will never find anybody that perfectly conforms to your own world view; either in the ends or the means to that end.

  14. Shapiro, like Goldberg – is a mass media slob. None of those guys mean anything to anyone anymore. The battle is here – right here, right on you blog, Z. You don’t notice it because you work for free, you don’t have to market yourself, you don’t have to appeal to advertisers or put up with all the other crap the mass media does. You are right at the front of the line and you are winning.

    It may not be a happy middle ground, it may be a cratered, pock-marked no-man’s land between us and them in this culture war … but that ground HAS to be trod to get to the other side. Shapiro is a chattering skull. The lefties can have him – who cares what he thinks?

    Jordan Peterson is something else altogether. He’s a classical liberal from a bygone era – being driven, kicking and screaming – towards us. More are on the way. That is what winning looks like, fellas. Take a bow and enjoy the applause – you earned it.

    Peterson is the massive fault cracking the foundations of the leftist cathedral – and Shapiro is the wad of gum they are trying to stuff into it to hold it together.

    Keep your eye on the ball and focus. Peterson is the game. Shapiro is the retarded waterboy mascot for the other team – and that’s all that he is.

  15. It looks like our verdict is in: Shapiro is a class enemy. Those half-dozen of Z man’s readers – new ones – who haven’t caught the anti-Shapiro intel over the last few months, now know the protocol here at the ‘Z bunker’.

    Ben Shapiro is verboten. He’s a tool of our enemies. Nothing new here – we hate Ben Shapiro. I get that…

    We’re in a secure compound, in which all opinions bounce around within a sealed container.

    It’s the ‘Andromeda Strain’, except that, instead of interstellar microbes, we have modulations of thinking, that must be sealed underground in tightly-managed compounds.

  16. I think Shapiro only went in conservative punditry when he lost the chance at his true calling – playing Spock in the new Star Trek reboot movies.

    • more like Spock’s irritating younger cousin who gets spaced by the rest of the crew.

  17. Does anyone remember the unpleasantness that ensued when Vox Day reproduced an article by Richard Spencer advocating for the “ethnic cleansing” of the USA? Except
    the article in question really wasn’t written by RS, but by Ben Shapiro, and you all can probably guess the country he wants “cleansed.” I was unable to take seriously anything the little pipsqueak said or wrote after that.

  18. Instead of people noticing what happens to our guys when they try to engage in public debate, their eye is focused on how poor Ben Shapiro had to wait a whole hour while the campus police removed a few overwrought students from the auditorium.

    And that, if anything, is Shapiro’s utility to us – flak-catcher. He doesn’t seem to realize antifa, and the left in general, make no real distinction between him and Richard Spencer. We’re all Nazis to them. So I’m perfectly happy to let him make the campus rounds and draw fire from overwrought leftists. Our guys seem to have concluded that route is a dead end, so if Shapiro et al. want to draw their fire, and perhaps provoke a situation that finally results in the authorities lowering the boom on leftist protesters, that is perfectly fine with me.

    • You some how came to opposite conclusion the facts suggest. What guys like Shapiro are doing is legitimizing the marginalization of those to his right, by trying to position himself as some sort of martyr. Our guys are getting assaulted trying to attend events, while Shapiro is celebrating with the beautiful people as their approved rebel.

  19. I think I realized Ben Shapiro was useless, if not outright actively detrimental, while watching him address Amren, Jared Taylor, and other “white supremacists” on some Youtube show. If you can sit there with a kippah on your head, as the product of generations of selective breeding for IQ and tribal loyalty, and try to pretend that race doesn’t matter, well …you’ve got a lot of chutzpah. The stupidest part of the debate regarding civic nationalism versus white nationalism is that (as Audacious Epigone already noticed) the only people interested in a color-blind democratic society are white people. The only way to have a genuinely functioning civic nationalism is to have a bunch of white people. Otherwise you get the Lee Kuan Yew model Steve Sailer is fond of talking about, or, like you mentioned a couple of days ago, “Voting your skin.”

  20. To be a valid alternative to the GOP, the Alt-Right has to offer whites more than HBD and Social Darwinism.

    Look most whites know the GOP sucks eggs big time. – it’s useless. But the Alt-Right has failed to make the case it offers working class and middle-class whites anything. Until they do the GOP is our only home.

    If you want to attract normie whites? Then offer them the things that matter to them. Trump figured that out yet the high IQ brigade is stumped. This means going beyond HBD, eugenics and segregation. Those will not win over most whites.

    And the alt-Right needs to attract some decent front men. Intelligent, educated, personable and able to debate the sort of lunatics that Peterson has to deal with.

    Also, white men are desperately looking for anyone who stands up to the idiocy of our age and can explain a lot of things. This is a big plus that the alt-Right can leverage if it’s smart enough. This is why Peterson is so popular. Instead of vilifying the old professor, the alt-right ought to notice what he’s doing right.

    • A leader of the Alt Right (or whatever clever euphemism we invent) must withstand the entire world calling him a racist Nazi. There is no way to avoid this and few are willing to sign up for that. The only reason Jordan Peterson is allowed to say what he does is because he is so obviously a race denier.

      What do we offer to working class whites? A generous social safety net with controls for abuse, which is only feasible in a white (or Asian) nation.

      • If you think Petersom is a race denier, you haven’t watched him much. Whenever race comes up, he starts speaking even more guardedly than he usually does. He’s a psychologist, he knows what the IQ test results say, and he’s obliquely acknowledged that. But he also knows that going any farther would be the end of him and accomplish nothing, and he takes his own “at least don’t lie” advice.

    • I’m firmly in the alt right camp and don’t believe that the alt right is at a point where it should have leadership. The reason why is that any kind of alt right leader will act as a lightning rod. We saw this with Richard Spencer, Mike Enoch, and Andrew Anglin. The media desperately wants a leader and when they see someone who they think is a leader, they try to destroy them. You can criticize any three of them and raise valid points but that will be with any leader. They will get dissected and analyzed six ways from Sunday. It’s an unnecessary risk for very little gain and the chances of being invited to debates like Jordan Peterson does is slim.

      Instead I think it’s better to be low key and infiltrate existing institutions. Wage internet guerrilla warfare as there are no shortage of liberals who still get extremely angry at twitter trolls. Support alt right media like The Right Stuff. Do what you can for the media to continue to crater and the left wing run institutions lose their legitimacy in the eyes of the public. I think these are all preferable to trying to be an articulate alt right leader where the media will just lie about you anyway. This is the 21st century and the 20th century model of figureheads will likely end up being more of a liability than a benefit.

      • I agree with this. Leadership is about the above ground activism and politics. Right now, the game is to win converts and that means lots of voice talking and debating one another. That brings people into the movement. Once numbers reach critical mass, the politics will take care of itself. There’s never a shortage of leaders once the crowd is all headed in one direction.

      • The strength of the ideas speak for themselves. As long as the ideas are out there and articulated, people will read them, hear them, and adopt them as truths for them to live by. No leadership necessary, and probably more durable and popular without leadership.

        Besides, the lack of leadership to identify, single out, and kill, will vex those leftist Alinskyites to no end. An extra bonus.

      • Agree – ISIS and Al Qaeda have been successful beyond their apparent means because they remain essentially leaderless, and therefore amorphous. Hard to kill amorphous.

    • You’re well past courting working class voters and nothing Peterson says is preparing you to live in the world that’s right around the corner. You’re less than a decade away from being a hated minority with no political representation at the federal level. Think about that good and hard before you lavish any praise on the kind of man who thinks white people having equal rights to non-whites is the moral equivalent of the gulag or a concentration camp.

      • And without the white working and middle-class the alt-right is the alt-right is the equivalent of a high school AV club full of nerds looking over charts and debating the merits of SAT scores.

        Look I saw this race shit coming 40 years ago, I’m prepared for it. I was prepping before the asinine term existed.. And it won’t end well for whitey, it will be a bloodbath and a half. There a dozen events that could easily set it off. The elites can’t forestall it forever.

        What all the haters of Peterson don’t get is this. Peterson wouldn’t be a internet phenomena unless whites were desperate for anyone to stand up to the Progs/cultural Marxists, etc. And the Alt-right could leverage that need if they had any sense, which they apparently do not.

        BTW I’m under no illusion about Peterson. He’s a old school liberal. But he’s better than anything we have which is nothing.

        I want to see the alt-right grow up and become a nationwide movement with local, state and national orgs, support groups, etc. In short be useful to whites when SHTF

        • How cool? A gown-up person who can say “I like what Jordan Peterson has to say” without asserting that he is Moses dividing the Red Sea.

          I.e., a normal person who worked out his identity before what Z-man calls the ‘interwebs’ colonized the human brain – the Left and Right.

        • No. You’re wrong. The working class and middle class do as they are told. They will only turn when their social superiors tell them to. If you saw this 40 years ago then you saw a wildly more “woke,” white working that was demolished. Learn that lesson. Throw off the priors of an era dead and gone. You’re in a struggle to revive some kind of racial consciousness in the class of people who matter. The first step on thst path is telling yourself that Jordan Peterson is an individualist and a cuckold and you won’t pollute your mind with his shit anymore.

          • What I saw back then was a “woke” white working class, who was awakened by Reagan, and who blindly followed GHW Bush, as the designated heir of the movement. Bush crushed the movement, and Reagan was in no mental condition to speak up.

            Two lessons. One is that the guy at the helm right now might be all we ever get in the way of a fair representation of our side. Two is that one must prepared for the day when things go haywire at the top, and work bottom-up to keep things going. There was no real “bottom up” to things in the ’80s.

          • I would also note that the arrest of Tommy Robinson is a big test of “bottom up” awareness and power in the UK. The government is throwing down the gauntlet, and committing the country down the path of an Orwellian gulag society. They may have been heading down that path for a while now, but this arrest means the mask is off. How it goes from here could be telling.

      • Ok, ok, I’ll stop “lavishing praise” on honest academics from Canada that I admire, in a general way, and hold my head down, as everything turns to shit; I’ll blame him.


    • Yous making alot of sense. Keep your eyes open and one will come along. I wish i had even a scintilla of charisma…. but alas i fear that i’m a born backbencher

  21. I have friends that love Shapiro. To torment them, I point out that Shapiro believes that Israel must preserve its Jewishness by any means necessary yet is indifferent to the browning of America so long as the values of the Founders are maintained. When I point out the Naturalization Act of 1790, which reserved US citizenship to free whites, they think badly of me and end the conversation. If only cognitive dissonance was painful!

  22. I’ve watched a number of Shapiro’s videos and you’re right, he’s one of those that claim the Democrats are the party of slavery which morphed directly into their current communist positions. That is, according to Shapiro and others, Democrats of the mid-19th century were socialists at heart.

    Utter dung. The Republicans were the first socialist party in the US and remained in that camp until the early 20th century. Theodore Roosevelt was a hard core progressive, the pretty name for socialist. The Bush Crime Family have been socialist/fascist for their entire political involvement in the US. The list is long.

    Shapiro, in addition to those things you list, is a hard core Zionist. He defends all actions by the Zionist state, and defends the billions given to Israel by the US government at the expense of our needs here. The southern border fence could easily be funded by the outrageous amount sluiced to Israel.

    • Call me a “hard-core progressive” – ‘the pretty name for socialist’ – but I think your assessment of TR, of the GOP, and even the Bushes (who I despise) has no validity whatsoever.

      Look, we’re all mad at stuff, but let’s not get carried away and let our historical sense get dragooned into present-day vexations.

      • Do you know how the Bushes made their money? Go do a little digging on Prescott Bush. GHWB was a prime part of the Deep State and a Globalist stooge. Remember his “Thousand Points of Light” speech?

        The GOP was the driving force of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 as well as the 13th-15th Amendments. Li’l Ben is reframing when he accuses the Democrats of being the party of slavery rather than the party of decentralization.

        TR and Wilson were both “Progressives.” Sounds an awful lot like our current Uniparty. TR’s ego gave us Wilson. The “rhyme” of Perot ensured that Clinton was elected. Either way we were screwed in that election but BillyBoy got paid back for his assistance in Mena. Thankfully the NeverTrumpers and McMuffin went nowhere or we’d be stuck with Her.

        Our perspective of the past should inform our present and drive the future. How else will we purge the rot from Western Civilization?

  23. I lost respect for Lil’ Benji when he melted down and quit Breitbart with the incident involving Michelle Fields and Corey Lewandowski. Something that seemed thoroughly trumped up (which it was) and he went all in on it. He’s dragged his feet on the rightward shift of the overton window every step of the way, which would run counter to someone who portrays himself as a “true conservative”, a term which is increasingly laughable by the day. His actions don’t seem to jive with his beliefs, which leads me to believe he is nothing more than a roadblock by design. Back in the day, this used to be the job of National Review and The Weekly Standard. Ben Shapiro is no William Buckley though so I don’t expect him to be as good at his job as Buckley was in the latter half of the 20th century. Time for him to be stuffed into society’s locker and move on.

  24. I came across this clip form Monty Pythons “Life of Brian” with Brian (Jordan Peterson) taking to his “tribal” fanbase and saying “we are all individuals” and they tribalistic reply as a mass “yes, we are all individuals”- as a rejection of tribal identity politics . The parallels to Jordan Petersons rejection of identity politics are so grotesquely funny;

    • Jordan Peterson has never been confused for Christ by anyone I know. But I don’t get around much any more.

      • No, i didn´t write Ihat either. But, he thinks that tribal identity can be overcome and so does he followers/tribe and he insists that we shall not think as us being a part of a groups (except jews) but look at everybody “as individuals”

  25. It’s been years when I would even qualify myself as some sort of Conservative, paleo or otherwise. The term has been corrupted completely as Sam Francis would explain.

    The official dissidents are who now? The debate in Toronto between that jive talking hustler Dyson and Goldberg and what, the Right with libs like Peterson and Stephen Fry? No, this homie and buying dat.

  26. A solid post you wrote there, Z-Man.

    Having watched more than several of Ben Shapiro’s diatribes, it’s plain that he rarely mentions immigration, except to give the occasional nod to immigration as an immutable founding principle – essentially the “huddled masses” shibboleth. You learn more about where Shapiro stands and what his function is (which is, “SHUT UP, everyone to the right of my schtick”) not by what Shapiro says but by what he NEVER says, by what he omits to say and never mentions – he’s essentially Paul Ryan but with a motor-mouth running full-bore under a kippah. Shapiro is useless to patriots because he’s just a another shill for the Globali$t Invade The World, Invite The World $ellout of . . . us. His tone of outrage is as phony as a three-dollar bill, but he skillfully uses this tone as the squid ink that deceives a lot of people into mistaking that Shapiro is somehow on the side of us ordinary Americans when he’s actually a shill for the Powers-That-Be/Deep$tate/Wall$treet/Enemedia-Pravda/OpenBorder$ $ellout E$tabli$hment.

    Jordan Peterson has some interesting takes but only when he sticks to numbers in which facts are grounded. When he goes off on philosophical tangents, on psychology/sociology theories not based on numbers, or even when he forms dubious proposals inferred wrongly from numbers, it’s wise to be wary of what he says and to be prepared to question and, if necessary, to refute it. A considerable proportion of what Peterson says seems, to me, to be psycho-babble-ish squid ink.

  27. Zman: “A running debate on this side of the divide is over the utility of guys like Ben Shapiro, Jordan Peterson and other slightly edgy characters. The claim is that these types of insider critics of the prevailing order are a gateway to more radical thinkers on this side of the divide. A normie starts reading Ben Shapiro or listening to Jordan Peterson, and before long he finds his way to our team. There’s not much in the way of proof of this, just some anecdotes from people who swear that is how they made their journey to the dark side.”

    Great post overall, but I have a problem with a part of it. I dislike when people say there’s no proof of a certain opinion/theory, instead of just saying they doubt or disagree with the opinion. This is a sly way of casting the opposing opinion as quantitatively falsifiable. “You’ve no proof? I guess I’m right then!” Not everything is provable. What form would proof take in the way Z framed the question anyway? The closest we can come to understanding how people arrive at the Alt Dark Side is by what they tell us. But Z won’t even allow this, as he calls into question their very honesty, with the disparaging, “people who swear”.

    Just a minor quibble over an otherwise great post.

    • I have a quibble: I don’t think Z man has any idea what Peterson is talking about. Not a single fucking clue. His criticisms of Shapiro have some merit, imo, I find similar faults with him. Peterson is not talking left/right politics as his primary point, other than leftism leads to piles of bodies. Z man talks about literally nothing that Peterson addresses, and vice versa. So why he has a bug up his butt about him is a mystery to me.

      Brown eyed Dobro players are not on our side, therefore we must condemn them! Non-sequiturs, Untie!

      • Perhaps you should read what I have actually written about Peterson, instead of what you imagine I’ve written.

        • Based on what I’ve seen here and on Vox Day’s blog, this is a very common occurrence with Peterson fanbois.

      • Peterson is a mentally ill, psychiatric drug dependent, Globalist shilling huckster, with a Messiah Complex.

  28. They could be useful and we should criticize them.

    I’m sure there’s no evidence they move people to our side since I don’t know how there could be a way to trace the origins. However I came to the dissident side through libertarianism, followed by a grab bag of some of the above characters. I suppose once someone has accepted that the mainstream media is calling the Shapiro and Peterson’s of the world misogynazis, and yet they listen to what they say anyway you’ve selected a group who is willing to listen to “hatethinkers.”

    However those guys bring little value on their ideas so punching left to extract the portion of their audience who are more than useful idiots to keep sliding right may work. At least it worked for me.

    • There’s a 100xs greater chance of moving Bernie voters, Jill Stein fans, and Antifa members to our side, than the Shapiro devotees.

  29. I work with a couple guys who listen to Shapiro. They are former military and currently state unionized, which means they are mostly socially conservative (church going, concealed carrying, etc.), but vote Democrat because all of their lives they have been led to believe Democrats fight for the union man. I listened to one of his podcasts right after the Parkland School shooting and was not impressed, and could in fact hear the subtle endorsement for more state control over us dullards. When i attempted to point this out to my co-worker, he looked at me like he either thought I was nuts, or he couldn’t grasp a minimal understanding of what I was saying.
    Shapiro isn’t a gateway, he is a gate.

  30. I think there is a ratcheting effect at work in our favor. Historically, people rarely get more Leftist as they get older. This is even more rare now, especially regarding race realism, due to so much information being available on the internet. So any moderate rightist who moves centrists the slightest bit rightward is good, because almost no one will move from the right to the moderate.

    The Truth is a powerful force multiplier when it comes to propaganda efforts, and moving an adult from the right to the left is going against a powerful current of truth.

    • Zorost, what you say is quite plausible. I wonder if it’s one of the reasons that the hive has gotten more and more zealous in punishing badthink… they realize that a little of it goes a long way.

    • The Ceaucescus went from undisputed potentates of Romania to corpses in a matter of days, by the slightest change in the direction of people’s thinking. Some drunkard in the crowd began to laugh, and down went the system.

      Any system that requires the continuous denial of observable reality cannot survive even the smallest perturbation.

      • “Any system that requires the continuous denial of observable reality cannot survive even the smallest perturbation”

        Sorry, but you are totally wrong.

        The “truth” – observable reality – oft times is irrelevant.
        Dictatorial regimes survive all sorts of perturbations for very lengthy periods of time.

        The thugs who ran the USSR, beginning with Lenin and Trotsky, denied reality from the moment they seized power, but with copious quantities of mass murder, terror and purposeful mass starvation (e.g., the Holodomor) they survived – and their successors survived – for 90 years.

        Castro in Cuba had been around since 1958; 60 years !!.
        And look at North Korea; they are still denying reality since 1946 or so – 72 years !!!

        As for the Ceaucescu’s, well, he survived up until 1989; 44 years after a system that “denied reality” (although he only took power in 1965 – he survived as dictator for nearly 25 years).
        Yugoslavia fell apart only after it’s “idol”, Tito, died – 45 years after he seized power.

        Dictatorial regimes often fall when some “reformist” (e.g., Gorbachev) , in their stupidity, decide that the true ideological underpinnings of their rule must be instituted, notwithstanding the previous rule by terror and thuggery.
        The moment ANY repression is reduced or any freedom, however minimal, is introduced, is the moment when the sheeple wake up and wind up killing (rightfully so) or tossing out the thug(s) that have destroyed their families and lives.
        An elitist moron like Gorbacbev (who is detested in Russia) actually believed that “real “communism would work and it never occurred to him that the mass exterminations and terror previously inflicted upon the USSR were directly CAUSED and enabled by an ideology he actually believed could work.
        Such is the utopian world view of the elitist and the intellectual.

        Yes, the truth eventually wins out. But “eventually” can be a really, really long time and only after millions have been exterminated.

        The truth is simply not enough to counter the 24/7/365 barrage of propaganda, esp. when the propagandists OWN the means of mass communication and Billionaires (Soros, Steyer,etc) are there finance their work.

        Readers of ZMAN and similar websites are a distinct minority of our electorate and maybe of the adult population of our nation. Putting out the truth only reaches those willing to seek it out.
        I don’t think that is even 51% of the adult population.

        The left means business and they will use ANY means (think Cambodia, the USSR, Hitler, Cuba, N.Korea, Venezuela, etc) to obtain power.

        Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth. The truth is what the winners decide is the truth and what the majority of folks are led or forced to believe is the truth.

        Observable reality can mean nothing at all for very lengthy periods of time.
        What matters is what the people want to or are forced to believe.

  31. Those guys are just right wing liberals. They are barely better than right wing progressives like that pants-sexual David Brooks. Or whatever his first name is.

    At least, they re-post and write about the outage of the week. As long as they never have an original thought, which is a safe bet, whatever conservative inc dressing they put around the actual reporting on the event will fade into the background.

  32. Don’t watch television and have only seen glimpses of Ben Shapiro. Had to check out YouTube and find one of his latest videos.

    One video posted 2 days ago by someone called Patrick bet-david ? Never heard of him, but he had Shapiro on his his guest .

    Shapiro thought Jeb Bush was a better candidate for president and that Joe Biden will beat president Trump in the next election.

    Nothing about the criminal activity of the FBI, CIA, Hillary’s involvement along with Obama, etc.

    So yeah, thought he was good for our team but now that you mention it he comes down on the side of the present corrupt government.

    • It’s because he knew Trump would be bad for his co-ethnics. It’s why he was willing to sell his credibility by lying during the Michelle Fields debacle.

      • Trump has Jewish family and is BFF’s with Netanyahu . Its a not a Jewish thing.

        Trump is hated because he is a class traitor. He is expected to be a looter cuck like the rest of them and standing up in any way for the Middle and Working or in any way making the world safer and more peaceful and reducing MIC profits to Neo Con minds is rank treason

        Long and short, the US elite, top 10% maybe and some hangers on want the lower classes especially Whites subjugated or baring that dead

        Some of them like Kevin Williamson have said this outright but its what all of them are thinking

        Unfortunately whats’s hindering folks from understanding this is the decades of anti group conditioning. These days a lot of otherwise sound Conservatives believe thinking you are part of a group and acting for those interests means gulags and central planning are on the way and people will soon start vanishing

        This is changing in part thanks ironically to Hillary and her Deplorables and sites like Men to the West and Dirt people. This change will be of huge benefit because the really is us, Americans (or other groups depending on nation) vs the alliance of globalists, looters and economic carpetbaggers

        Last whatever to say about the Millennial generation, they are not as stuck in the cold war and neither are the Gen Zeds and while Millennials are often broken and a bit Commie, they still get Us vs Them

      • I think you mean “thought.” I don’t know how anyone of any ethnicity or political persuasion can honestly claim that Trump is “bad for the Jews.”

        • Think differently. Jews who choose to live in Israel vs those who control the deep state here.

          The latter don’t consider themselves Israeli.

          • Israel is a penal colony for the Corrupted- normals who can be patrotic to both god and country.

            One must adore the Rootless vision only- or be manipulated by hypocrites like the rest of the cattle.

            Remember what was done to the normie majority, the Ten Tribes.

            (Revelations’ ‘false jew’ returning to life after three days, promising to save the world, is not some puppet on a stage, but an eponym.
            An eponym of the Holocaust fraud. The Lucifer’s children began their reign before we were born. Tribulation is here.)

        • He has talked about reining in the Fed Reserve, he appointed a goy to head it. That alone has been reason enough for jews to kill presidents. Throw in the fact that Trump is breaking up their pedo hold on many elites. Many other such things under the surface.

    • Look, we get the whole Shapiro thing. We’ve gotten it for months, if not for years. I would much rather talk about his partner at ‘The Daily Wire’, a man I like, Andrew Klavan. Klavan won’t cross certain lines any more than guys like Goldberg or Shapiro. Yet he has integrity; can it be that one can have integrity and still not be on “our” team?

      Thoughts are welcome. Everyone seems to be certain here about such things.

      Answers, please!

  33. Shapiro is the annoying kid you would have given a swirly or put in a locker, but for his utility to your study group. Wouldn’t put Peterson in the same bucket. Listened to his live dissection of some lady from the Economist interviewing him yesterday (good gym listening) Z, you’ve gone on about how science is basically now validating differences that we all instinctively knew existed. Well, Peterson is one of the few guys that comes to argument well armed and won’t be shaken off message by endless baiting. She kept trying and he kept putting the discussion back onto objective, verifiable research data. That is valuable. I don’t think he really cares who likes him or not and is not auditioning for the Jonah Goldberg DC Cocktail Circuit. I think he fell into this “fame” thing rather unexpectedly and by Providence, got just famous enough that he couldn’t be disappeared. I’ll take him on my team.

    • Peterson is not on your side

      What he is , is a globalist terrified of warfare whose goal is more or less the elimination of differences with one world culture

      Jordan B. Peterson worked on the UN Secretary General’s High-Level Panel on Sustainable Development, editing a document that was released in 2013 entitled ‘A New Global Partnership: Eradicate Poverty and Transform Economies Through Sustainable Development ‘. One of the panel members of this UN High Council was none other than skippy himself, John Podesta.

      This is the Agenda 21 crap that’s flooding the West with foreigners

      He’s the ultimate wolf in sheep’s clothing

      • I agree. Peterson, though fun to watch from time to time, is anti-identitarian politics. I’m a southern nationalist, he would oppose my position.

      • I agree, I think it’s a mistake to assume that Peterson is on our side. There is a small bunch of Generation X left wingers who haven’t quite got the memo that they’re supposed to abandon the values they held in the 1990s and people like Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan are some of them. It’s a mistake to assume they have any right wing sympathies because they don’t. They want you gone every bit as much as a campus dangerhair.

        • I find generational labels to be far less useful and far more silly than most people seem to, but it’s worth pointing out that Peterson, born in 1962, is a late Boomer.

          And don’t get me started on that useful idiot cuck Joe Rogan…

          • Nothing says ‘traitor to our cause’ like being born in 1962.

            Edit: Good thing you find ‘generational labels to be far less useful and far more silly than most people seem to”, otherwise I would be nervous (as one born in 1960) that Peterson’s birth in 1962 is “worth pointing out”.

        • Exactly. Trust no one, that’s what I say. Peterson may be working for the enemy, like the charming – and thoroughly foul – Prof. Siletzky in Ernst Lubitsch’s 1942 film ‘To Be Or Not to Be’.

        • Well, I look at it this way. When we can conjure up someone with the cred to go out there every day and argue against the notion that all observable and scientific reality is merely a construct, then there is no need for a Peterson. But from what I can see, he’s one of the few guys putting a toolbox out there, free of charge, to use as a counter to a substantial portion of the post modernist agenda. But similar to Murray, a guy like Peterson is only going to provide guidance to the water’s edge. But I’d rather see a crowd waiting for the ferry.

      • I see you’ve been keeping up with Vox Day’s blog. Vox can be a little fond of the sound of his own voice but he’s been eviscerating Peterson’s arguement from not just a Christian but Nationalist and Identitarian perspective. You’ve pretty much summed up his entire position with the above post

    • “I don’t think Peterson really cares who likes him or not and is not auditioning for the Jonah Goldberg DC Cocktail Circuit.” Never doubt ANY person’s thirst for the spotlight, or the contortions they’ll make to stay in it or enlarge it. Especially once they’ve gotten a taste of it.

      • Quote from Frip:

        “Never doubt ANY person’s thirst for the spotlight”…

        Ok, when you capitalize like that I can’t help but wonder how YOU, Frip, seek “the spotlight”.

        It’s not a criticism, I just want you to expand on your comment…

  34. Spot on Shapiro knows exactly what his role is, always has. Peterson is defending something important that no longer exists, can no longer exist, because of Shapiro(s). Peterson has a crippling need to be liked by the Academy, to reason with the Academy. Shapiro is the litmus test of the last bubble bursting before “dark” enlightenment.

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