In Defense of Error

The other day, I followed a back and forth on Twitter between two smart people and one of them pointed out that the other had been wrong about the issue in the past. The details are not important as nothing serious ever gets discussed on Twitter, but what struck me is how even smart people can resort to this sort of score keeping. In the context of an internet exchange, it is about as sensible as claiming the other guy has cooties. It’s just a childish way of dismissing an argument or criticism without examining it.

It is a form of the fallacy of the undistributed middle. Someone could have a great record of being right about a topic, but those past predictions have little or even no connection to the current prediction. A gambler can get on a great roll at the craps table. It does not mean he’ll keep winning. This also means that the legendary loser at craps can win once in a while too. That’s the way it is with intellectual endeavors. You will get a lot wrong, but you can get a lot right too. Intellectual advancement is the story of trial and error.

Anyway, it got me thinking about something that turns up a lot on the dissident right. That is the quest to purify one’s past. It seems that a lot of people feel they should be ashamed of having been a libertarian or an unthinking conservative, who listened to Rush Limbaugh and voted Republican. Often you hear people talk about their journey to this side of the great divide as an awakening. It’s not a terrible way to frame it, as it certainly feels that way when you are going through it.

I know in my my case, I still remember when it dawned on me that the Bush people were serious about the spreading democracy stuff. From 2001 until 2005, I was quite confident that the democracy talk was mostly public relations. It was a way to troll the Left, by using their language as a justification for Afghanistan and Iraq. What was really going to happen is the CIA would find a friendly strong man to take over as an authoritarian. We’d install our guy and that would be that.

Even during the election with the purple finger stuff, I was quite confident it was just a show for domestic consumption. Then, it became clear they really thought they could turn Iraq into a European style democracy that would be an ally to Israel and help with the coming war with Iran. The scales fell from my eyes and I quickly moved from thinking the neocons were wrong to thinking they were crazy. Bill Kristol was just as deranged as the guys talking about the invisible imam and the end times.

Now, I take solace in knowing that I was not the only one to make this error. Tucker Carlson often talks about how he supported the war on terror and then realized it was going to be a catastrophe. John Derbyshire has written about his regret for having gone along with something he always sensed was a bad idea. Lots of smart and skeptical people were fooled by the Bush gang, so I don’t lose sleep over it. The neocons are very good at turning virtues into vices. It is their nature.

The thing is though, I’ve always thought the two best things to happen to our side are the Bush years and the Obama years. For men of my generation, the Bush year opened our eyes about the reality of the Buckley Right. Whatever the Buckley project was at the start, by the 1990’s it became a vehicle to undermine heritage America, every bit as toxic and dangerous as Progressivism. The Obama years created more race realists that an army of Charles Murrays and Steve Sailers.

The point is, mistakes have consequences, but they are often a necessary intermediate step in discovery. This is true of science and technology and it is true in the evolution of culture and society. The bungling of guys like Richard Spencer, which set off the aggressive campaign of censorship and de-platforming, has opened a lot of eyes, especially on our side, to the realities facing us. If the alt-right had been more prudent early on, the battle lines would not be so clear now.

A point I made on RamZPaul’s Christmas special was that the aggressive censorship and the fallout from it will make us better in the long run. James Edwards did not seem to like that point, but I am right about this. This is not a game you win by mastering the other side’s rules. There are no rules, just force. Our side will be better as we learn how to navigate around the searchlights, armed patrols and ideological enforcers. The path to victory is not in the appeal to their virtue, but the exploitation of their vices.

In a way, the dissident right is the result of error. Much of the skepticism that defines this side of the great divide is the result of having been wrong about a great many things, especially the integrity of the people in charge. Just as science and technology are the story of error, whatever comes next is going to be the result of many mistakes. It’s what an awakening is, when you think about it. It is that point when you realize you have been wrong about important things and begin to figure out the right answers.

110 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
M S
M S
1 year ago

The awakening is the reason the dissident right fails to use forceful tactics. The majority (I would probably argue close to 100%) of the dissident movement arrived here by noticing things, not a forceful situation where someone proclaimed this is the way things are. So the dissident tends to not forcefully proclaim their positions. This fact (as i see it) puts the dissident right in the position to exploit the other sides vices (that is a wonderful way to phrase it Z). As John Rivers has noted on GAB, the path forward for the dissident movement is to pit the… Read more »

Glenfilthie
Glenfilthie
Reply to  M S
1 year ago

Christians are well aware of their adversaries, thank you very much, MS. In case you haven’t noticed, several of our churches have fallen to them. I think the cool kids call it ‘churchianity’ or somthing, as if it is a thing. They only see part of our defeat; where queers and feminists caper about the pulpit and ape the traditions of the church they destroyed. What those children miss is that those churches often empty out in short order and they end up closing their doors. The more I think about your proposition, the more I disagree with it. As… Read more »

Pinochet
Pinochet
Reply to  Glenfilthie
1 year ago

The number one most important and impactful thing we can do is try to awaken fellow believers to the reality of the JQ (both the political and spiritual aspects) and the bastardized, un-Biblical version of Christianity that proclaims you must welcome foreigners to invade your land and violate your women.

My home church literally had a full-scale replica of the Western wall built–complete with Israeli flags–and encouraged us to pray against it. They mean well but this is pure satanic idolatry.

Seeker
Seeker
Reply to  Pinochet
1 year ago

Sounds like voodoo.
Did they tell you where to stick the pins?

Yves Vannes
Yves Vannes
Member
Reply to  M S
1 year ago

I see a lot of grousing from some corners on our side about how 2018 was at best stagnant and in many ways a disaster. From the pt-of-view of some individuals who suffered at the hands of our enemies, yes. But what strikes me as most important about 2018 was that the left no longer wears a mask or seeks to hide its intentions. People are going to begin noticing things a lot more quickly because our enemies will be a lot more open about who they are and what they intend to do about legacy America. We should help… Read more »

Unwashed Mass
Unwashed Mass
Reply to  Yves Vannes
1 year ago

And for part of that tweaking, we should pin the next logical conclusion of their atrocities hard on them. There are only two places they can go with that – either full denial and full stop, or to admit their acceptance and keep adding steam to their runaway train. Either way will open more eyes of the normies. LGBQT? NO, it’s LGBQTPedo! Feminism? NO, it’s Black/Brown/White feminism! Open borders? NO, it’s Open Households! Gay marriage? NO, it’s open marriage! And so on and on and on. Call it out always. Edit: I disagree with letting them get on with the… Read more »

Al from da Nort
Al from da Nort
Reply to  Yves Vannes
1 year ago

Yves; Another sorta good thing about 2018 was that a lot of Paul Ryno’s CoC owned placeholder pubbies in Congress got culled by false-flag D ‘moderates’ the Progs. parachuted into suburban districts in an eminently foreseeable (but evidently not foreseen) replay of ’06. Given Nancy Palsi’s plans they will be forced to drop the mask and so should be reasonably easy to replace with MAGA folks in 2020 so long as the local R Parties nominate strong candidates and start paying some actual attention to the shameless Prog vote stealing we saw all over the country this fall. No more… Read more »

Wolf Barney
Wolf Barney
1 year ago

Even though a lot of conservatives got it wrong when we went into Iraq, a few were right in opposing the war, such as Pat Buchanan, Sam Francis, Thomas Fleming (Chronicles), Ron Paul, and a few others. I also remember their horror at the new Patriot Act, and what it would mean for ordinary citizens.

De Beers Diamonds
De Beers Diamonds
Reply to  thezman
1 year ago

Most people on the left were not expecting a long war, they were expecting a repeat of 1991 that would see ExxonMobil and friends take control of Iraqi oil reserves in a neo-imperialist plot. When the time came to award the contracts, Iraq gave them to Russian and Chinese state-owned oil companies. Nary a peep about that here, even from neocons. The Russians even got the *arms* contracts for Iraq.

Wolf Barney
Wolf Barney
Reply to  thezman
1 year ago

Bush came across to most conservatives as a tough sheriff, determined to avenge 9-11 and the evil Saddam. Yet a few of us saw Bush as a PC pussy when he gave his “Islam is a religion of peace” speech and refused to shut the door on Muslim immigration.

Chief
Chief
Reply to  Wolf Barney
1 year ago

How about Bush’s seeming relentless inability to defend himself, his administration, and by extension, us (his supporters), despite a perpetual onslaught from what we perceived to be “the other side”. And then, after his Presidency, he sits on his hands for eight long years, uttering not a single peep of protest while Obama dismantles the Constitution, the Rule of Law, the traditional family, race relations, International relationships, the entire U.S. health care system, and on and on… But it was truly only until Donald Trump humiliated his feckless baby brother, his worthless administration, his unwarranted and totally disastrous wars, even… Read more »

DLS
DLS
Reply to  Chief
1 year ago

Very well said. Another reason Bush never stood up for himself and conservatives was his preening belief that, as a Christian, he should turn the other cheek. That’s great in his personal life, but we hired him to do a job, a lot of which was battling the left, not interjecting his personal religious beliefs into his work duties.

Chris_Lutz
Member
Reply to  Chief
1 year ago

Someone recently brought up WMD’s in Iraq and that’s why we needed to invade. I asked when they were found and when was the WH news conference touting the news? Silence except for finding some left over gas shells which had been buried since the first Gulf War.

David_Wright
Member
Reply to  thezman
1 year ago

Most Paleos were right more often than wrong. Nutty, no. A few maybe but grumpy moreso.
Maybe not a good position to take publicly but 911 was blowback from some of the US government actions, alliances and policies.

De Beers Diamonds
De Beers Diamonds
Reply to  David_Wright
1 year ago

Forgotten by the right, but certainly not by the left, was Falwell/Robertson saying a few days after 9/11 that the US deserved it for being degenerate. Neither man blamed Israel, but if they had the history of this century would have been far different. Instead both reverted to form after this rare form of lucidity in their otherwise grifting lives.

Joshinca
Joshinca
Reply to  thezman
1 year ago

I think I got it right from the beginning. Sad dam was a brutal asshole. But he was exactly the kind of cat that has always ruled Arab tribes throughout recorded history. “Saving” Iraq wasn’t worth one American life. “Transforming” Iraq into a democracy was always a foolish fantasy. I used to tell the lefties I argued with that I wish they were correct that we were invading Iraq “for the oil”. Because at least that was a rational (if immoral) reason and one that could actually be accomplished. It’s not that I’m some kind of genius, btw. Far from… Read more »

Dave
Dave
Reply to  Joshinca
1 year ago

Exactly. What’s strange is that guys like Zman, and millions of “conservatives”, had blinders on and didn’t really want to see what was going on right in front of them.
It wasn’t hard for a reasonably informed individual to see the handwriting on the wall.

Al from da Nort
Al from da Nort
Reply to  thezman
1 year ago

Z Man; You’re right about the many confusing political cross-currents during the Bush II years. Having been around during Vietnam, the anti-war demonstrations against Iraq II looked to me like aging ’60s lefties who wanted one more hit from the bong of self-righteous opposition to ‘the man’ (even though they were now ‘the man’ themselves). Besides this, the Clinton/Cloud’s ‘spread-democracy’ ideology was behind Bush’s Iraq occupation policies too. So it was pretty tempting to support Bush II despite his highly questionable ‘religion of peace’ BS and whitewashing Clinton’s culpability for 9/11: I despised his obviously shameless critics who voted for… Read more »

Random Dude on the Internet
Random Dude on the Internet
Reply to  Al from da Nort
1 year ago

> Having been around during Vietnam, the anti-war demonstrations against Iraq II looked to me like aging ’60s lefties who wanted one more hit from the bong of self-righteous opposition to ‘the man’ (even though they were now ‘the man’ themselves). I agree. The way you could tell it was a LARP was how contained the “anti-war” response was. None of the antics that were seen in the 60s and 70s, it was just carefully contained and curated. The message was telling shrub (the 2000s version of Drumpf) off but simultaneously not to rock the boat either. Boomers wanted to… Read more »

Dutch
Dutch
Reply to  Al from da Nort
1 year ago

Al, supporting GWB in 2001-2002 was all we had. He made the proper gestures and said the right things, and there was no real alternative to supporting him that made any sense, at the time. Yes, I got played, but the menu of choices was a weak one. Back then, we played by the rules, and supporting GWB was the best choice in a limited rule book.

BTW, it was Obama that got me (and likely many others) to chuck the rule book. He did serve one useful purpose.

Dave
Dave
Reply to  Dutch
1 year ago

You absolutely had a choice, and you and millions of others made the wrong one.
You willingly went along with a lie, which is what the Bush administration was.
Plenty of people all over the political spectrum saw what was going on and spoke openly about it.
You allowed yourself to be played.

Nathan
Nathan
Reply to  Wolf Barney
1 year ago

I was fooled on the Afghan war, but I started getting queasy when Laura Shrub began blathering about “girls going to school.” That was my big red flag that this was going to be the nation building Dubya ran against.

I was never fooled on Eye-raq. By then I had taken the Pat pill. I actually had two pro-war people, lefty-libertarian types, admit to me years later I was right. It was a lonely time to be anti-war. No argument, no matter how sound, was going to change the mind of the bloodthirsty American public.

Drake
Drake
Reply to  Nathan
1 year ago

Some kind of payback was absolutely required with Afghanistan. The initial campaign was a brilliant Airborne / Light Infantry raid. Chased out OBL, destroyed the Taliban government and broke their stuff. At that point we should have issued dire warnings and gone home.

I knew something was terribly wrong in 2003 when we started offloading heavy units and building up a permanent presence.

Member
Reply to  Wolf Barney
1 year ago

The most horrible part was allowing DHS agents to unionize.

Baron
Baron
Reply to  Wolf Barney
1 year ago

It was not going into Iraq that was wrong, but the conduct of the invasion ie what we did after we invaded. The Allied Forces, or any military anywhere, have but one aim – to destroy the enemy either by killing it or capturing it. We did neither, still suffer from the consequences of this misguided military strategy.

The West no longer has the guts to do a military intervention well, it may sound uncomfortable, barbaric even, but when one faces evil there’s no half way of destroying it.

Nathan
Nathan
1 year ago

“Angry bald guy?” You aren’t referring to James Edwards? The guy is the happiest warrior we have. Listen to The Political Cesspool podcast.
https://www.thepoliticalcesspool.org/tpc-shows-archive/

David_Wright
Member
Reply to  Nathan
1 year ago

I thought the same, Edwards is not an angry warrior, far from it.

Teapartydoc
Member
1 year ago

I like the Chinese saying about crossing the river by feeling the rocks under your feet. You try out different footholds until you find the ones that work and advance you toward your goal. Life is not waltzing across a series of bridges. As far as the Buckley right going wrong, I think it was when they used the Cold War to react to Communism and make a god out of capitalism, which facilitated the entry of libertarians into the leadership of the conservative movement, displacing the Southern Agrarians and traditionalists to the margins, and eventually out altogether. All, of… Read more »

Toddy Cat
Toddy Cat
Reply to  Teapartydoc
1 year ago

Yeah, us anti-Communists were willing to take on almost anyone as an ally, as long as they opposed the Commies. This was understandable, and perhaps even necessary at the time, but it pretty much poisoned the “Movement” as anything but an opposition to the Soviets. Buckley and his people needed to fold their tents and go home after 1991, making way for a new kind of conservatism that would address the actual challenges facing the country. This didn’t happen, so we now have the spectacle of these guys trying to re-start a conflict that they won over a quarter-century ago,… Read more »

Babe Ruthless
Babe Ruthless
1 year ago

I think that a lot of our guys went to libertarianism first because they (correctly) sensed that there was a lot wrong with leftism, but they couldn’t renounce the Sin of Sins of the establishment worldview: racial awareness (or race realism, racial solidarity, whatever you want to call it.) That sense of the Sin of Sins has been so thoroughly instilled/brainwashed/bluepilled that a lot of people simply can’t de-program it; indeed, for some it seems so obvious that they mistake it for a feature of reality itself. That’s why they’re stuck with the pathetic DR3 business. People will tie themselves… Read more »

De Beers Diamonds
De Beers Diamonds
Reply to  thezman
1 year ago

I’ve always seen the use of “libertarian” as a shield against being lumped in with evangelicals. Support of Ron Paul was rare in my high school peer group, upper-middle class. I can only think of maybe five people from those years. Anti-war activity basically ceased after the election of Obama and his Iraq pullout in 2011. Of course, libertarianism doesn’t perform well in decaying Rust Belt metros, its base has always been rural Westerners.

Citizen of a Silly Country
Citizen of a Silly Country
Reply to  De Beers Diamonds
1 year ago

Yep. I was living in DC in the 1990s. I was conservative but not religious. Although I agreed with much of libertarianism dogma, calling myself a libertarian was as much as about letting my “moderate” and liberal friends and co-workers know that I wasn’t a Christian Conservative as it was about my belief in free markets.

Libertarianism is often a refuge for non-religious conservatives, at least, until they figure out that libertarianism is the coward’s way out.

Andy Texan
Reply to  De Beers Diamonds
1 year ago

I met Ron Paul in 1982 and have been aware of his politics since I was a young Reaganite. Ron Paul’s fault was in speaking badly of America while assuming that the America Firsters of that era had the background to understand that it was really his opposition to the post war one-world-ism that American elites were leading. Most Americans just do not understand the issue of Globalism and the role of America in leading this parade until very recently.

Member
Reply to  thezman
1 year ago

Libertarianism is found in Silicon Valley still for that reason. You can be against big government but are finished if you come out against any of the cultural jihad du jour. Even someone as powerful as Peter Thiel had to leave for being a thought criminal

Wolf Barney
Wolf Barney
Reply to  Babe Ruthless
1 year ago

I can remember, a long time ago, how good it felt to be against affirmative action, quotas, special treatment of minorities, etc, because I was against discrimination. I was proud to be more anti-racist than the liberals, who who were in favor of discriminating against Asians, for instance in college admissions, etc. Being color-blind was the purest way to be anti-discrimination and anti-racist, which of course was the highest ideal. Now, I don’t give a shit about racism and cringe when I see Dinesh D’Souza, Charlie Kirk, and Tomi Lauren out there preaching color-blindness and DR3. You can see how… Read more »

Epaminondas
Member
Reply to  Babe Ruthless
1 year ago

With the election of Dubya, I knew what was coming and just needed a safe harbor. I drifted over to the Ron Paul crowd out of desperation. I wanted to see things in libertarianism that simply were not there. It took years for me to understand these guys were just another flavor of liberalism.

Drake
Drake
Reply to  Babe Ruthless
1 year ago

I went libertarian first because so many “conservatives” turned out to be full of shit. The libertarians of the time really did believe in freedom and small government – not just slogans about them for the rubes.

Member
1 year ago

Alinsky’s tactics work, but then we get into the argument about reasoned discourse, parliamentary rules, not stooping to the level of the demented left, etc. Right now, I am willing suspend earlier thinking completely, and support Trump without reservation, after all what’s our other option?

Dutch
Dutch
Reply to  erp617
1 year ago

Yup, the “reasoned discourse” is out, and “don’t stoop to the level”. While the deep state, behind the scenes, is deadly serious and pretty good at moving the ball along, the antics of the Proggy left are really ridiculous. Having endured MSNBC in my house during the holidays (The lack of self-awareness here is amazing. I would never in a million years go to someone’s house and turn on Rush), I realized that the level of discourse is about seventh grade. It consists of media types vying with each other to come up with the most odious Trump stuff they… Read more »

tljhound
tljhound
1 year ago

We live and learn. With good luck we learn the right lessons.

Glenfilthie
Glenfilthie
1 year ago

Bravo. This is probably going to be a shooting war before it ends too. I tell everyone – AR15’s for the family, at least 4 high cap mags each – and stock up on ammo. But you are still making mistakes yourself, Z. This may be picking the fly chit out of the pepper, but you keep forgetting that the world is not run by the US, and that other players are on the board too. And you seem to forget their virtues and vices make the average Jewish globalist multibillionaire look like a saint. They are the reason the… Read more »

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  Glenfilthie
1 year ago

Glen, funny you should mention AR’s. Guess what was given out to family members this Christmas. 😉 Of course, this is a gun friendly state—just about everyone (non-Lefty) has one. Sort of like in Yemen where every male gets an AK as a right of passage.

Member
Reply to  Glenfilthie
1 year ago

Glen, have you seen or thought about a statement of principles (dare I say manifesto) to express our side? Like in 100 words or less? I’ve been trying to get people I know to dip their toe in the river in the hope they may someday cross over to our side, but get tangled up in trying to express “our thing” as eloquently as Z and others. I either say too much or too little and come off as a nut or worse. In that regard, I would like to offer some vision of what comes after Lefty beyond just… Read more »

Compsci
Compsci
1 year ago

Right on, Z-man. 20 year card carrying Libertarian here, no apologies, just a regret for being so naive for so long. Bush did indeed open my eyes with his silly (and plain ideological) ideas wrt universal democracy, equality, and civnat insanity. By the time Obama rolled around, I was wary—but still hopeful—that we might have turned the corner on the great question of our racial divide. Instead another illusion was lifted and the threat of the Left became obvious, if not ominous. And so here I post today. 😉 Christmas family get together was interesting however. There is a lot… Read more »

De Beers Diamonds
De Beers Diamonds
Reply to  Compsci
1 year ago

For the cost of the wars since 2010, we could have paid for a “public option” for health insurance, and funded the training of more doctors in medical school to obviate the need to import South Asians. The true cost of lolbertarianism was its ascendency during the recession as a fusion with populist anger at Wall St. Conservatives were tripping over themselves to praise the Silicon Valley types for being “entrepreneurial” and resisting regulation. Now we are stuck with hostile monopolies. The stock acquired in the banks by TARP would have returned hundreds of billions in dividends had it not… Read more »

Bob Smith
Bob Smith
1 year ago

I was right on 9-12- 2001 and I still am. Send the Air Force. And very publicly fire the failed leadership of the entities that failed to stop the attack.

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  Bob Smith
1 year ago

Bob, sounds about right. No heads rolled and the organizations involved got more staffing, greater funding, and even more authority. What’s wrong with this picture?

De Beers Diamonds
De Beers Diamonds
Reply to  Compsci
1 year ago

Polling data usually indicates that Islam is the most unpopular religion in the United States, but this has never led the political class to slash immigration from their countries. Part of the reason is that Anti-Islam sentiment is concentrated in white evangelicals, and the establishment loves pissing on them. Anti-Islamic movements led by Sikhs and Hindus would have far more efficacy than the movements led by Zionists with the support of Evangelicals. The contrarian view is that if Evangelicals started praising Islam, we actually might see immigration slashed.

De Beers Diamonds
De Beers Diamonds
Reply to  De Beers Diamonds
1 year ago

Anti-Immigration sentiment increases after a terrorist attack, but leads to nothing other than an increased security state. Steve Sailer has written many posts about the “backlash”. US conservatives and Euro nationalists are guilty of “chasing the stick” as the proprietor put it. “Not All Muslims” is a low-IQ and effective argument that happens to be true. Fearmongering about terrorism only sees the security state grow. The best reaction to a terror attack is silence.

Dutch
Dutch
Reply to  De Beers Diamonds
1 year ago

The hilarious thing about bringing in all the Muslims is that the people supporting it are just fine with it, as long as the new guys don’t live in their neighborhood and take their jobs. The imports are some sort of pets that live in a far-off zoo. Maybe we all need to put loudspeakers up in the middle class neighborhoods we live in, and blast out Muslim calls to worship five times a day. Freedom of religion and all.

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  Dutch
1 year ago

The problem with the attitude that you describe Dutch is common across the board in a myriad of social ills. Folks just don’t connect the dots and perceive the big picture as to how Muslims or other third world immigration affects them in their little slice of the “world”. Not a discussion goes on for 10 minutes or longer where I don’t need to digress to draw the point as to how the current discussion is not simply academic, but affects those in the room—sometimes directly, but always indirectly.

De Beers Diamonds
De Beers Diamonds
Reply to  Compsci
1 year ago

Somalis and other invaders are ethereal to many white liberals, elsewise they are pets, restaurants, etc. What is not ethereal to white liberals are their conservative relatives. White liberals have primal fears that the Handmaiden’s Tale will come to life, and non-whites will be expelled. Terrorism also doesn’t kill anywhere near enough people to disrupt daily life to the extent of the Second Intifada. Trump in the White House does disrupt the daily lives of liberals.

Member
1 year ago

Thomas J. Watson, legendary president of IBM, said, “The way to succeed is to double your failure rate.”

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  Henry_Lee
1 year ago

I use to start some meetings with the phrase: “Anything worth doing is worth doing wrong.” Everyone would remain/become quiet. It was meant as a jumping off point to discuss the need to reduce endless committee discussion—usually designed to avoid responsibility and risk. In short, the order of the day was to move forward and solve problems and accept the risk/consequences of being wrong. Those unwilling needed to be somewhere else.

Brooklyn
Brooklyn
1 year ago

“I know in my my case, I still remember when it dawned on me that the Bush people were serious about the spreading democracy stuff.” I don’t think people should be too upset with themselves because they had different perceptions of the situation in the past. As you mentioned, a lot of much more serious people with much more to lose also got swept up in the situation. I mean, think about a guy like Hosni Mubarak. There’s no way he though in his wildest dreams that we were really serious about what we were saying about democracy and the… Read more »

Milestone D
Milestone D
Reply to  Brooklyn
1 year ago

I remember the exact moment I realized I had made a mistake with GWB – I vividly recall listening to his 2nd inaugural address with all its Wilsonian messianic rhetoric and exclaiming “he really believes this!” Until then I thought all the idealism was just a cover for an exercise in pure power politics. But just like in 2000, I remained blinded by Team Red/Team Blue. I loathed (still do) the Democrat party so I just assumed that anything the GOP did must be good. By 2008 I was moving away from that view – my vote for McCain was… Read more »

Larkin Lover
Larkin Lover
1 year ago

I agree that you can’t hold every little error against someone, nobody is an Oracle, but for something the magnitude and importance of Iraq or the neocon wars in general is different. Also, a young person whose worldview is still forming could be mistaken—like myself. It was a key moment of catastrophic import. Talking heads and political officers who supported Iraq can never be fully trusted because how can we know, when the chips are down that they will not stand with Sauron again, behaving like the mind weaponized Shia, who blend in with the Sunnis until key moments of… Read more »

Alzaebo
Alzaebo
1 year ago

Libertarians were the original dissident right, trying to tell conservatives and leftists that they were building their own prisons.

Hoagie
Hoagie
1 year ago

My problem is I’ve figured out I was wrong but have no right answers. I’ve become a fucking moron trapped in an ideological warp between what I know is true and what every person, institution and organization in my life said was true. I kinda joined this rag-tag group at Zman because I don’t know my ass from a hole in the ground anymore and at 67 that’s not a good place to be. I’ve fought, bled and killed for my country in Nam. I built businesses all my professional life and employed a couple thousand people. I’ve paid to… Read more »

Truthspeaker
Truthspeaker
Reply to  Hoagie
1 year ago

A high percentage of those kids you “helped” may have been racist. Have you ever considered that?

Toddy Cat
Toddy Cat
Reply to  Truthspeaker
1 year ago

So what? Sorry, pal, screaming “racist” doesn’t work any more. Try again.

ronehjr
ronehjr
Reply to  Toddy Cat
1 year ago

I think he was trolling

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  Hoagie
1 year ago

Hoagie, you are my doppelgänger. And I suppose that means we are both obsolete. But how much do we need to whip ourselves in atonement? We were both lied to. We both did what the script said and were successful at it beyond our dreams or at least for me, beyond what I deserved.

Member
1 year ago

I always believed the Bush admin for its fervor for Mid East democracy. They pushed it hard, with major “Churchillian” speeches. In our age of 24 hour media focus, he wouldn’t have been permitted to then unabashedly install a puppet dictator in plain sight. This should’ve been obvious to everyone, except cynical ideologues who are great on big picture theory, but are empirically and perceptually limited.

De Beers Diamonds
De Beers Diamonds
Reply to  Frip
1 year ago

Karzai was a dictator, but he was a puppet of Iran, Pakistan or whomever was the highest bidder that day. The plan was to use Chalabi in the same fashion, but he had no constituency in Iraq. The reluctance to co-opt Baathists was also a major problem. There was a claim, made after the man had fallen into a coma, that PM Sharon of Israel told Bush that Arabs wouldn’t accept democracy and it would be a long war of occupation. I tend to doubt it as a self-serving claim for a domestic Israeli audience to make Netanyahu look foolish… Read more »

Chris_Lutz
Member
Reply to  Frip
1 year ago

Actually, things blow by so fast anymore it would have worked. Let’s say we installed our guy, made sure our European allies got a piece of the oil lucre, and made sure the country was reasonably stable, it would have blown over. Within a year, only a small number of Lefties would have cared. The Left might mention it, but it would simply be a rote statement necessary to move on to what they want to talk about.

Citizen of a Silly Country
Citizen of a Silly Country
1 year ago

“This is not a game you win by mastering the other side’s rules. There are no rules, just force.” This is something that I believe the Dissident Right is still figuring out. It seems that many prominent members still believe that if we just show normie whites and Jews the facts and logic, they’ll change their minds and we’ll be able to pull ourselves out of this. They continue to act like we’re in a college debate when it’s obvious that we’re in a bar fight. The other side doesn’t care about your arguments. They want to punch you in… Read more »

Wolf Barney
Wolf Barney
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
1 year ago

For all the talk and admiration of those old paleos, that’s one thing they didn’t talk much about, that our foes play by different rules. There’s a rapidly growing realization that we can’t rely on logic and facts. We all need to spread that message far and wide to our conserva-normie friends.

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
1 year ago

I’m glad you expressed some sympathy for Spencer. Until Cville, public demonstrations were a reasonable idea to explore. We didn’t know of the treachery of the police and the courts. Now it is there for all to see.

One thing we have learned, as you say, is, “There are no rules, just force.”

De Beers Diamonds
De Beers Diamonds
Reply to  LineInTheSand
1 year ago

The specific idea for the Cville torch march came from an Estonian nationalist movement, a movement that is tolerated in its own country because of its anti-Russian platform. In contrast to post-facto claims it was inspired by the Klan, this part of the demonstration had not been predicted by the left.
Experience in Western Europe should have clued anyone in that the establishment would not allow the march to take place without violence. There was also a larger participation of blacks for the left in Virginia, an element absent in the Milo riot at Berkeley.

Random Dude on the Internet
Random Dude on the Internet
Reply to  De Beers Diamonds
1 year ago

I would say if the Charlottesville march was limited to just the surprise torch rally, it would have been a huge hit. The mistake was holding and attending the next day rally.

Wolf Barney
Wolf Barney
Reply to  thezman
1 year ago

Good point about Spencer. And regarding Charlottesville, it’s usually referred to as an obvious mistake. I have to admit that at the time, I had no idea that what happened would happen. Maybe a lot of wiser folks than myself saw it coming, but they must have kept it to themselves, because I didn’t hear them.

De Beers Diamonds
De Beers Diamonds
Reply to  Wolf Barney
1 year ago

The initial expectation is that Alt-Lite figures would also make speeches, and supposedly Pax Dickinson was expected to appear. That was in the name “Unite the Right” after the Heilgate fallout.

Everyone knows who Richard Spencer is, but how many heard the name Wes Bellamy.

Random Dude on the Internet
Random Dude on the Internet
Reply to  Wolf Barney
1 year ago

Despite the Monday morning quarterbacking, nobody at the time believed that the police and the government would assist antifa like they did. The alt right at the time was still naive enough to assume that the police and city would do their job, even if it was the absolute bare minimum. Most in the alt right at the time were conservative and had trust and faith in institutions like the police. Not anymore.

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
Reply to  Random Dude on the Internet
1 year ago

To support your point about the attitudes towards the police of the people at Cville, some chanted “Blue Lives Matter” at the beginning of the day before things went bad. We got an education.

ronehjr
ronehjr
Reply to  thezman
1 year ago

I give him an A for courage and C for intelligence. However, someone who is much more intelligent, Greg Johnson, is starting to irritate the hell out of me because he reverses those grades, and ultimately nothing can be accomplished of lasting import without courage.

DLS
DLS
1 year ago

“This is not a game you win by mastering the other side’s rules. There are no rules, just force.”
So true! The early seeds of this reality were planted with Roe vs. Wade, which was a pure exercise in raw political power. Whatever your view of abortion, to pretend the constitution addresses this issue one way or the other is ludicrous. Today, both parties will flip on an issue 180 degrees in one second, depending on how it effects their power.

Lance_E
Member
1 year ago

To some extent, you are mixing up the “they”s. The Uniparty model is OK for domestic politics, but when it comes to foreign policy you want to look at the Red Empire/Blue Empire model. If the Red Empire (mainly the Military-Industrial Complex) had its way, we absolutely would have installed a dictator. However, because the permanent bureaucracy has way more power than the nominal government, the Blue Empire (especially State) always gets its turn at bat. The invasions and occupations were Red; the “democratization” and expansive refugee programs were Blue. This is just the sort of thing that happens in… Read more »

Al from da Nort
Al from da Nort
Reply to  Lance_E
1 year ago

Lance; An excellent and original exposition. Certainly, *one* of Bush II’s errors was not recognizing this reality, IMHO. Supposing the aptly named internal Blue Empire was actually on his side because of his veiled membership in the Globo-Uniparty was, in retrospect, the height of folly. But now we can see the truth. Trump appears to get it at some level. I hope he’s thought long and hard about workarounds. One hopeful sign is that the leaked complaints about his management style center around not listening to ‘his’ ‘experts’. Ms Conventional Wisdom, Peggy Noonan’s wistful trolling for credible leakers in this… Read more »

Dutch
Dutch
Reply to  Lance_E
1 year ago

Lance, we also need to keep in mind that once Trump is gone, whenever or however it comes to pass, expect a “slash and burn” of anything and everything he has stood for. The military will be wearing high heels, the energy companies will be banned, and small business will be all jammed up. The border wall will be physically destroyed, piece by frikkin’ piece, with the fragments put in museums next to the pieces of the Berlin Wall. Guns will be banned, and the door-to-doors will commence. Rush will be taken off the air, and sites like this one… Read more »

Epaminondas
Member
1 year ago

The white middle class Californians who are fleeing that state are probably stumbling out with “their faces sicklied o’er with the pale cast of thought.”

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
Reply to  Epaminondas
1 year ago

I hope you are right. Someone I am close to is fleeing Portland, OR, which her politics helped destroy, to a mid-sized town in WA. Once there, she will be an activist for the same policies the effects of which she is now fleeing. If only stupidity was painful.

Epaminondas
Member
Reply to  LineInTheSand
1 year ago

California liberals still blame all of that state’s problems on Republicans. It’s been a one-party state for decades, and yet they still manage to get away with that. I’m not sure that an utter and complete collapse would change their minds.

tonaludatus
tonaludatus
Reply to  LineInTheSand
1 year ago

In the past twenty years Southern New Hampshire got destroyed by the same kind of bozos invading from Boston, MA.

ronehjr
ronehjr
Reply to  LineInTheSand
1 year ago

When we were poorer stupidity used to be fatal. We might be blessed with those circumstances again in the near future.

UpYours
UpYours
Reply to  Epaminondas
1 year ago

The loser locusts swarm to find a new field to ravage.

Pursuvant
Pursuvant
1 year ago

Your basis philosophical point is well known but always in need of pointing to – it’s the impermanence of all things, the constant change, the only thing that does not change is that everything will change.

That’s why you reach an age where you see the destination is always getting further away, and you have the realization that it is not the destination that is the goal, it is the journey. Play your hand well with what you understand, take your stand with decency and honor, and be ready to sacrifice even life for an idea or a people.

Dutch
Dutch
Reply to  Pursuvant
1 year ago

Seeing where this is going is difficult to accept, but necessary. Being face to face with people who hate what I stand for, over the holidays, has both made things clearer for me, and has further radicalized me. To top it off, they like to spout, “I wish people were more tolerant and could get along better”. Really? Liars.

tz1
Member
1 year ago

What seems to have happened is a slow erosion where it was hard to recognize where or when our country was betrayed. There was the 1900 immigration, where they assimilated or went back. Even by 1986, we assumed the amnesty grantees would assimilate and we would get border security. Trump’s wall dates to Reagan – like the tax cuts traded for spending cuts. It would be like having a friday night card game for years, but suddenly two players you knew started cheating. It has sunk so far everyone has to rewind and go on a quest to discover the… Read more »

Drake
Drake
Reply to  tz1
1 year ago

We used to expect immigrants to assimilate into American society. Now we are supposed to import savages and assimilate to their society.

Tony Lawless
Tony Lawless
1 year ago

This is an excellent piece. The bit about “exploiting their vices” is key. I hope people take note of it and start working on ways to make this a reality.

sirlancelot
sirlancelot
1 year ago

If the bulk of your info comes from main stream media how could any of us have known? Until fox news. Loved it !

Bought their books, cheered them on and then came 2016. Suddenly most became Never Trump Loons.

Now it’s easy to see. The left has infiltrated everything and their playing for keeps. Someone mentioned a kind of ” mission statement ” and think it’s a good idea.

Let people know what we stand for. Asage any fears of being “bad whites”. Just fellow americans looking out for one another 😉

Issac
Issac
1 year ago

Motive on the part of the neocons was purely self-interested. That essentially all of the elite fell in with them says all one needs to know about the number of gentiles left in the US elite who dare cross Zionists. Bush senior likely had the last row, accidental though it was, with the lobby. No telling when the last true rival to diaspora power made it into national prominence.

LineInTheSahttp://thezman.com/wordpress/?p=15968nd
LineInTheSahttp://thezman.com/wordpress/?p=15968nd
Reply to  Issac
1 year ago

Isaac, with all due respect, how do you get away with speaking so truthfully? I like you buddy, don’t endanger yourself…

Steve
Steve
Member
1 year ago

Z Man, I just sent an email related to this subject to Derb. In short, do folks on our side limit our appeal by clinging to the “Right” label? The Buckley right was 1) religious conservatives, 2) economic libertarians and 3) Cold Warriors. The economic libertarians brought us the so-called “free trade agreements” (e.g., NAFTA — 900+ pages), outsourcing, and the addiction to cheap foreign labor. The Cold Warriors quickly moved on from anti-Communism to the never ending war on Islam and the “Democracy for All” crusade. The religious right, who I tend to sympathize with on many issues, also… Read more »

TomA
TomA
1 year ago

The journey you describe is (or should be) more properly described as a gauntlet. Those that survive to reach the other side are more likely to be robust and uniquely able to weather future storms of uncertainty, hardship, and threat. The weak and stupid are supposed to perish and the smart and strong are supposed to prevail. Otherwise, evolution’s path leads to degeneracy and extinction.

Saml Adams
Saml Adams
1 year ago

Have to admit getting fooled by Dubya, despite the “little voice” in my head, the legacy of the clear eyed Realpolitik types that taught me in school. But having a few dozen friends, colleagues and neighbors vaporized in a morning will cloud one’s thinking. And while raised on Buckley missed the shift, once the Soviet Union fell and we emerged back into a multilateral power structure. But the real positive from the last few years is that so much of the agenda of the Left has come into sharp relief, masks dropped and claws visible. Even here, well behind enemy… Read more »

wholy1
wholy1
1 year ago

I prefer “In Defense of ‘Repentance/Redemption’”. Perhaps One’s personal acknowledgement of “errors” is the precursor to the aforementioned, but only a continuing “limbo” until . . . PERSONALLY “resolved” thru each and every very special/unique One’s DYNAMIC, DAILY “pursuit” of One’s individual path to One’s personal SALVATION as restored/ “justified” by the Redemption. What JC “did/accomplished/finalized” is DONE. The on-going “legacy” of said is being daily REaffirmed in the PEACEFUL deeds/ “demonstrations” of said special/unique One’s CHOOSing NOT to be a “ZERO” and thereby remaining “One of the Manifest[ed]”. So, this being the eve of another, what will most likely… Read more »

Guest
Guest
1 year ago

I came here via the libertarian leaning Maggie’s Farm blog, which posted this video yesterday: http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/archives/32690-US-National-Anthem,-by-7-year-old.html I see this video as something of a Rorschach test. To the civnat libertarians at Maggie’s Farm this video is an awe inspiring rendition of the national anthem. But once you swallow the red pill the video looks more like a eulogy for a long-dead nation than a celebration of patriotism. The kid is cute as a pin and she sings beautifully and with emotion, but she’s Asian. The Star Spangled Banner is *not* of her history. The chance that anyone in her family… Read more »

UpYours
UpYours
Reply to  thezman
1 year ago

Good, I agree now go home to Mother Russia. This is a Nordic not a Slavic country. You have no place here. See how easily how your own ethnic philosophy can be used against you?

Epicaric
Epicaric
Reply to  Guest
1 year ago

It is possible for non-white immigrants to assimilate fully. But there are severe limitations. They must see their present and future as inextricably linked to the future of the majority population, and be willing to forsake their own ethnic past. If they have viable alternatives to doing so, they will not take the necessary steps to subjugate their identity to the majority identity. It is psychologically possible to appropriate the history and ancestry of the majority as one’s own. But today the centrifugal forces are too great, and the conditions that made this kind of assimilation possible no longer exist.… Read more »

UpYours
UpYours
Reply to  Epicaric
1 year ago

The question that every minority I know asks is “If I forsake my identity and adopt a majoritarian view, will the majority reciprocate by treating me fairly?”. The answer to that is not a clear “YES” judging from the history of the country. Every immigrant group even the “white” ones such as Poles and Italians have been at the receiving end of severe ethnic and racial prejudice.That combined with aggressive tribalism inherent in Asians and Hispanics make for a very bad combination. The best outcome was for the US to remain close to 100% Nordic but that ship sailed in… Read more »

UpYours
UpYours
Reply to  Guest
1 year ago

Sure, and what sacrifices did your family make, Kemosabe?

Most white families have made ZERO sacrifices for the country since the end of ‘Nam. A pitiful 2% of white America serves and dies in the military. And BTW, unless you are of English and Scots-Irish descent, the star spangled banner is not of your history either.

And ROFL about soccer, sure those fine guys kneeling for the anthem be Amurrican but not some girl who sings the anthem with pride and emotion. Colin Kaepernick and LeBron James are as American as Apple pie.

Al from da Nort
Al from da Nort
1 year ago

Z Man; ‘I’s OK to be white’ is excellent rhetoric for use on the ‘normies’ as it jars their emotions, creating cognitive discomfort for future use. I see your post as a parallel effort in that direction for those now ‘noticing’. Maybe something like ‘it’s OK to be a second order noticer/perceiver’ would be good rhetoric using better words What I mean is that it was (maybe) Machiavelli who said something like ‘first order minds can see situations clearly through all the chaff, flares and countermeasures put out by TPTB to disguise their actions and motivations. Second order minds can… Read more »