Religion Versus Capitalism

A peculiar feature of the West over the last half century or so is the sudden decline in church attendance among Christians. In some parts of Europe, church attendance has declined into the single digits. France and Belgium have church attendance rates of around ten percent and it is mostly among the old. Estonia is at two percent, which makes it the least religious country in Europe, at least until they invite in enough Muslims. Even in the United States, religiosity is in steep decline, especially outside the South.

These declines have not been uniform. Quebec, for example, had high church attendance rates until fairly recent. They also had a relatively high fertility rate. Then all of a sudden, both went into steep decline. Similarly, Poland had very high church attendance rates, even under the yoke of communism, but then it started to fall. As in Quebec, this recent drop in church attendance is with the young and corresponds to a drop in fertility. As David Goldman observed, all over the world, religiosity and fertility follow the same path.

One assumed cause is social cycle theory, where a society goes through a process of birth, life and death, with falling fertility and religiosity in the late phases. Another explanation is that one causes the other. That is, when women get jobs instead of getting pregnant, church attendance falls. Alternatively, the drop in church attendance causes a drop in fertility, as other traditional modes of life also decline. Still others argue that multiculturalism crowds out both religion and normal family life, causing the decline of both.

A better, less popular explanation for both the decline of religion and the drop in fertility is the spread of what we call capitalism. In the two examples of Quebec and Poland, the drop in fertility and religiosity both coincided with their inclusion into the global economy starting in the 1990’s. Quebec was not communist, but somewhat disconnected from the emerging global economy, until the independence movement was defeated. One result of that process was the greater integration of Quebec into the global economy.

Poland, of course, was in the Soviet Bloc until the collapse of the Soviet Union. It was then quickly and suddenly integrated into the emerging global economy. Poland joined the West and then stopped going to church and stopped making babies. Polish church attendance dropped from 80% to 40% in a generation. The fertility rate in 1980 was 3.0 and by 2000 it had dropped to 1.37. The opening of Poland to capitalism and the global economy corresponded with the closing of Polish churches and the Polish womb.

If you think about the nature of capitalism, in theory at least, and the nature of religion, it is not hard to see the conflict. Capitalism not only assumes certain things about people, it imposes them. The marketplace is a competition to attain informational asymmetry between the buyer and seller. The seller wants the buyer to over value the good or service, while the buyer wants the seller to undervalue his product or service. It is only in this way that either can expect to make a profit from the transaction.

In a system where the highest good is a profit, then all other considerations must be secondary. Lying, for example, is no longer strictly prohibited. The seller will no longer feel obligated to disclose everything to the buyer. The seller will exaggerate his claims about his product or service. Buyers, of course, will seek to lock in sellers into one way contracts based on information unknown the other seller. The marketplace, at its most basic level, is a game of liar’s poker, where all sides hope to fool the other.

Religion, in contrast, also assumes certain things about people, but seeks to mitigate and ameliorate them. Generally speaking, religion assumes the imperfection of man and sees that imperfection as the root cause of human suffering. While those imperfections cannot be eliminated, the negative effects can be reduced through moral codes, contemplation and the full understanding of one’s nature. Religions, outside of some extreme cults, are not about altering the nature of man, but rather the acceptance of it.

Further, religion is a closed system, while the marketplace must be open. In order to be in the sect, one has to adopt a certain lifestyle and a certain set of beliefs. Most of all, the person has to be accepted by the other members. The marketplace, in theory, is open to everyone and the participants cannot exclude new entries. An ethos based on extreme openness cannot peacefully coexist with a system based on exclusivity. Not only has religion died in the West, but so have social organizations like fraternal orders.

Now, to be precise, what we call capitalism is closer to what prior age would have called corporatism or even fascism. The West is not living in an age of free markets and open competition. Instead, it is in a period of tightly controlled markets that are ruled by state protected oligopolists. Finance is controlled by a relatively small number of major banks and technology is run by a handful of global giants. Healthcare is a government controlled monopoly. The neo-liberal order is a global public-private partnership.

Since this arrangement lacks natural legitimacy, libertarians have been brought in to create a civic religion based around worship of the marketplace. It is why otherwise sensible people can support internet censorship by “private” entities. People have been condition to accept whatever private business does as morally legitimate. This new religion in support of the neo-liberal order, like all secular religions, is covetous and intolerant. It has to anathematize and marginalize any alternative religion.

The rise of this new fusion of capital and state authority, centered in Washington, does track with the decline of religion, fertility and local institutions. Whether you call it globalism, neo-liberalism or neo-conservatism, all of these terms describe the same system of rule by a corporate-government partnership. It is hostile to religion, both explicitly and implicitly, particularity Christianity. Faith in the marketplace is inimical to faith in God. When man loses that, he loses the will to go on and fertility rates plummet.

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ConservativeFred
ConservativeFred
1 year ago

The current system is openly hostile to religion, and not-so-subtly hostile to family formation. Consume any sort of media and within 2 minutes the mockery of religion is plain to even the lowest of the low IQ. As for family formation: – Women in the work force – [sarcasm] all women must have careers. – Student loans – [sarcasm] all people must have college degrees. Listen to me whine. One of the most difficult days of my life occurred shortly after I was married. My wife and I had enormous student loans. One day I found myself in the children’… Read more »

ConservativeFred
ConservativeFred
Reply to  ConservativeFred
1 year ago

As a postscript, I fully admit that I was oversold the value of a college degree. I bought the story.

Even though I paid my loans in full, I completely advocate student loan forgiveness concurrent with the abolishment of student loans. Sand in the gears, sand in the gears . . .

Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
Reply to  ConservativeFred
1 year ago

The presidential candidate who runs on student loan forgiveness–a debt jubilee–will win in a landslide. Bet on it.

A.B Prosper
A.B Prosper
Reply to  Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
1 year ago

The Democrats won’t let him or her do that . No one like Bernie pr in the Social Democratic wing will be allowed into power till the rest of the old guard dies off. Normally this would be a good thing but a lot of the current Democrats are loons and worse believe their own B.S. They could easily provoke a crisis the US can’t recover from . Truth is if we got a slew of low to no immigration, pro gun Democrat who didn’t hate Whites and could be trusted on those basic issues and were willing to spend… Read more »

bilejones
Member
Reply to  A.B Prosper
1 year ago

Largely agree but the Dems are currently worse on war,
We need a burning of the Republican party so that a genuine conservative party can rise from the ashes.

A.B Prosper
A.B Prosper
Reply to  bilejones
1 year ago

I agree with you here too.

Issac
Issac
Reply to  ConservativeFred
1 year ago

The current western system is not particularly hostile toward mainstream or orthodox variants of Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, etc. All of these religions are more or less given the same leeway by western nations that was once afforded to Christianity and, later in the post-enlightenment era, Judaism. The only instance to the contrary that I am aware of is the attempts at prohibiting circumcision in some of the Nordic countries, and to the best of my knowledge, none of them succeeded without making an exemption for religious reasons.

Glenfilthie
Glenfilthie
Member
Reply to  ConservativeFred
1 year ago

In case anyone missed it, it’s actually openly hostile to capitalism too. Who can forget Obutthole telling Joe The Plumber on how he never really built his own company.

I think ya got that one bass ackward Z. What you are talking about is crony capitalism… and the market will eventually correct that too.

roo_ster
Member
Reply to  Glenfilthie
1 year ago

“What you are talking about is crony capitalism… and the market will eventually correct that too.”

What an odd statement of faith.

Throughout my life I have seen systems defy “the market” and keep on truckin’. But I am to deny my lyin’ eyes and believe in your faith?

Hoagie
Hoagie
Reply to  roo_ster
1 year ago

Can you give an example or two of “systems(?) defying the market and keep(ing) on trucking”?

Educated.Redneck
Educated.Redneck
Reply to  Hoagie
1 year ago

Hoagie: sure, here are some examples. US sovereign debt, us student loans, us health insurance, us public pensions, japanese sovereign debt…. Etc. The system keeps alive that which the system needs in order for the system to survive. There is no God of the Market to save you and re-assert the “natural order.”

Glenfilthie
Glenfilthie
Member
Reply to  Educated.Redneck
1 year ago

Good grief. The system did not force you to take student loans. Health insurance is a scam that exists in defiance of capitalism, and is the construct of socialists. Get a grip.

Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
Reply to  roo_ster
1 year ago

Well, you might consider that the future is never what anybody expects. Whatever it is will be a surprise to nearly everybody.

Vegetius
Vegetius
Reply to  Glenfilthie
1 year ago

The boomer is strong with this one.

Glenfilthie
Glenfilthie
Member
Reply to  Vegetius
1 year ago

LOL. And I see the angry young cellar dwelling incel is doing well too. Part of the reason you little ones hate Friedman is that you can’t tell the difference between capitalists and socialists. I’ve heard Z say that the old paradigm of left vs. right no longer applies. He’s only half right about that; those forces are still alive and well and they act on our leaders every day on the street level. He and you are being influenced by them every day… but as often as not you’ll ascribe the effects off to eeeeevil joos, the deep state,… Read more »

james wilson
james wilson
Reply to  Glenfilthie
1 year ago

When the line was crossed and money and government suddenly shared the same DNA, the capitalist slide began. Fifteen years of world war and boom, fifteen years of depression and world war, and finally the present. Garrett said it best long ago–The shivering ghost that now inhabits the words laissez faire was once an unconquerable fighting spirit. It did not belong to capitalism. It belonged to liberty; and to this day its association with capitalism is valid only insofar as capitalism represents liberty.

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Glenfilthie
1 year ago

Crony capitalism is redundant. Humans are biased by nature. “The market” is only an aggregate of biased people. The rise of Woke Capital shows if anything that Market God is dead.

Al from da Nort
Al from da Nort
Reply to  Glenfilthie
1 year ago

J.S.; What resets crony capitalism is *disruption*, not the ‘the market’. The crony capitalists know this at some level or other. That’s why they pay off the crooked pols to maintain ‘da fix’. The point of and value in ‘da fix’ is to deal with any potential economic disrupters (and other predatory pols) using purchased political power, not market innovation. Otherwise it would be a pointless waste of money. This situation can go on for years and usually does. But what this situation ensures is that, when it comes, the disruption will be more destructive. It will be more destructive… Read more »

Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
Reply to  Al from da Nort
1 year ago
Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
1 year ago

MVR, again read carefully. Payments reduced, not stopped in worse case. Not that SSI is not a Ponzi scheme and a poor way to “invest” for retirement, but as long as a work force generates new funds to be input, the boomers like me continue to get a monthly check.

bilejones
Member
Reply to  Al from da Nort
1 year ago

Number pedant here.” Used to be worth millions. Along comes Uber and they lose 10X or 20X their value.”

Nope.

miforest
Member
Reply to  ConservativeFred
1 year ago

fred you should have had the kids and let them chase you for the debt. you can always pay later , but you cannot go back to the past and have the kids you missed. I speak from experience.

ConservativeFred
ConservativeFred
Reply to  miforest
1 year ago

miforest – Student loans present an interesting dilemma because they are not dischargeable in bankruptcy and professional licenses can be suspended for non-payment. Good luck finding a job (or keeping a job in those circumstances). In other words, they have by the . . .

SidVic
SidVic
Member
Reply to  miforest
1 year ago

yeah nobody can afford the kids. You just have them and things will tend to work out

SidVic
SidVic
Member
Reply to  SidVic
1 year ago

But that does piss me off. The naturally conservative will put off the kids. I see it in my own family. The lowest IQ Branch are having babies like crazy.

Wkathman
Wkathman
1 year ago

Even as an agnostic, I can’t help but observe that the decline of traditional religiosity in our culture seems to have transformed many people into soulless zombies. The vast majority of humans are sheep and it is likely necessary to social functioning that they be sheep. They will follow a religion one way or another. They can follow a religion that provides them a larger metaphysical meaning and purpose with connection to the cosmos (Christianity) or they can follow a religion that reduces them to hollow economic units (Corporatism). It’s no surprise that the latter religion offers them little incentive… Read more »

Citizen of a Silly Country
Citizen of a Silly Country
Reply to  Wkathman
1 year ago

Yep, I’ve mentioned before that I grew with zero religious teachings, though no antagonism toward religion either. But I’m slowly moving toward becoming more religious if only because it seems the only thing powerful enough to get white people off their ass and fight.

Hoagie
Hoagie
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
1 year ago

It worked during the Crusades.

A.B Prosper
A.B Prosper
Reply to  Hoagie
1 year ago

No it didn’t at least as well as folks want to think Crusaders spent a lot of time liberating cities in the Middle East, Outremer as they called it and preying on other Christians along the way There were important exceptions that removed Islam from the West like the Battle of Vienna (and the Winged Hussars arrived duh duh duh duh duh duh) but the Crusades were far from the best thing that ever happened and if we go down that path again, its being in the Middle East forever and ever. Our native religion is more about nature worship… Read more »

bilejones
Member
Reply to  A.B Prosper
1 year ago

Jordan Peterson has done a bunch of work on the origins, purpose and current applicability on religeon, particulary Christianity.
He’s got dozens of hours of Youtubes here:

https://www.youtube.com/user/JordanPetersonVideos

I’ve been downloading them, converting them to mp3’s and listening in the car,
Best stuff I’ve heard in a long time.

Go thou and do likewise.

Malicious Moniker
Malicious Moniker
Reply to  bilejones
1 year ago

Thar be Peterson bashers here.
I’ve done exactly what you are doing, the Maps lectures, the Genesis lectures, all of his podcasts, 12 Rules and starting MoM audiobook. That last one has me stopping and writing notes like mad. In the introduction to a book he wrote decades ago I found out why the Left Can’t Meme. And all of these clowns think he’s talking about politics. Only peripherally.

SidVic
SidVic
Member
Reply to  Malicious Moniker
1 year ago

Peterson is the enemy of white identitarians. He also definitely will not name the Jew. But he does have his good points.

SidVic
SidVic
Member
Reply to  SidVic
1 year ago

Oh, and also Peterson is a grifter.

Malicious Moniker
Malicious Moniker
Reply to  SidVic
1 year ago

whatever that means

Malicious Moniker
Malicious Moniker
Reply to  SidVic
1 year ago

I agree on all counts.

BadThinker
BadThinker
Reply to  bilejones
1 year ago

Peterson is theologically incompetent and mostly in way over his head. He *sounds* good, then 20 minutes later you say… wait, what did he actually *say*? He’s just another Shapiro – approved opposition.

There’s an excellent intellectual critique of Peterson here: http://theagonist.org/essays/2019/04/15/haywire-jordan-peterson-and-marie-mondo-self-help-for-last-men.html

Malicious Moniker
Malicious Moniker
Reply to  BadThinker
1 year ago

I don’t have trouble following his lines of reasoning. Maybe I’m a grifter, too.

Zeroh Tollrants
Zeroh Tollrants
Reply to  bilejones
1 year ago

It’s not often I wish for someone to get ball cancer, but let’s just say Lil Benjy Shapiro are duking it out for the top spot.

Citizen of a Silly Country
Citizen of a Silly Country
Reply to  Hoagie
1 year ago

I think the Muslims pushing militarily into Europe and stealing people off the coasts to sell as slaves was enough to cause the Crusades.

A.B Prosper
A.B Prosper
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
1 year ago

Embrace the power of “and”. One can start a crusade for worthy purpose, killing Saracen invaders and it can easily turn septic

In any case , keep Christianity and you keep parts of the West and its soul in the Middle East . Is the benefits worth the trouble ?

We’ll still need to be purposeful and ruthless in defense but the West can live without embracing a Jewish splinter religion and might even do better in this day and age.

Badthinker
Badthinker
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
1 year ago

To be fair the knights of St John, venetians and genoese all had large slave markets as well.

John Hume
John Hume
Reply to  Wkathman
1 year ago

It saddens me when so many people slip into materialism – and I don’t just mean corporatist consumption, but actually seeing all the world’s problems as needing only a material solution to be resolved (“UBI will make people overdose on opiates less”). The West’s biggest war is spiritual, but besides crazy depressed millennials seeking ayahuasca treatments while humping through the Peruvian rainforest, I don’t see many people reconnecting with anything resembling a religious compass.

One exception: the dissident right is chock full of people with spiritual, in addition to material, motives. I wouldn’t underestimate the power of that alignment.

Citizen of a Silly Country
Citizen of a Silly Country
Reply to  John Hume
1 year ago

To a degree, I’ve found a religion of sorts: My people. I now view the world much differently than in the past. I’m part of something much larger than myself, something much more important than myself, something that was here long before I showed up and something that I hope will be here long after I’m gone. Before I limited those feelings to my immediate family. Now they extend to my people. My material well-being – while not unimportant – is no longer a main focus. Whether I earn more money or my portfolio grows a bit means little if… Read more »

Calsdad
Calsdad
Reply to  John Hume
1 year ago

“Materialism” isn’t some flaw induced by the market and capitalism – it’s a natural function of being a living thing. There’s plenty of animals that are “materialistic” – within the confines of their species and their own ability. Or maybe you haven’t seen the stories online about cats that steal things from the neighbors, birds that decorate their nests with all sorts of cast of human trash, monkeys that steal shit from tourists – or the squirrels that go all OCD with acorn storing – to the point where they fill up entire walls and cell antenna housings with acorns:… Read more »

BadThinker
BadThinker
Reply to  Calsdad
1 year ago

And all those stories are about *dysfunction*. Cats, monkeys, and squirrels that do those things are outside the bounds of normal behavior for those creatures. Many cases those behaviors will *prevent* successful reproduction, which is, after all, the goal of biological life.

PatS
Member
Reply to  Calsdad
1 year ago

Your analysis is flawed from the start. Animals act upon instinct and training by man. Man is separated from animals by the ability of reason and free will. Animals cannot sin for the same reasons Martin Luther falsely reasoned “faith alone” (acts of good not needed) and that resulted with a paraphrase (some say quote) from him that “God loves a sinner so sin boldly”. “Faith alone” denies free will. But It is free will that allows man up to lift our actions above nature to God (the supernatural) and therefore elevate us above animals. The submitting to excess material… Read more »

John Pate
Member
Reply to  John Hume
1 year ago

Ephesians 6:12 KJV

dad29
Reply to  Wkathman
1 year ago

“Soulless…..” Yup. Look, e.g., at Ralph Northam and Tony Evers, both (D), both Governors, and both very casual about post-birth abortion–infanticide to most of us.

But “soulless” also applies to many Vibrant Yout’s, to whom murder as revenge for “diss” is expected and ordinary.

These are two other expressions of the Complete Materialism worship.

A.B Prosper
A.B Prosper
Reply to  dad29
1 year ago

Young nobles killed each other over disrespect in staggering numbers in the Elizabethan Era and violence was so endemic that sword schools were banned and rapier length regulated as well.

Parts of England banned weapons in cities

. Gang and other violence was common and lethal in the 19th century too

The reason this seems so odd is we’ve been spoiled by modernity and efficient policing . The historical norm is far different and once the state erodes enough, the norms return

Bil
Bil
Reply to  A.B Prosper
1 year ago

There weren’t enough nobles for there to be “staggering” numbers of killings.

Cities in England of that era were not nearly as large or populous as modern cities.

This is significant exaggeration to the point of lying.

A.B Prosper
A.B Prosper
Reply to  Bil
1 year ago

Its all about percentages and there were a lot of duels and lethal violence for such a small population. Also violence among the commoners was also endemic, This blog has some notes https://jessnevins.com/blog/?p=89 Homicide rates in Elizabethan England were noticeably lower than those for the medieval centuries, but still far higher than contemporary figures. Spontaneous violence was still common among rural people…few of the killings investigated at assizes during this time resulted from calculated violence: ‘rather, they occurred during acts of sudden, unpremeditated aggression and results from attacks with a variety of knives and blunt instruments. Fatal quarrels could originate… Read more »

Hoagie
Hoagie
1 year ago

This paradigm seems only hostile to the Christian religion. Seems the Jews and Mohammadans are getting along just swell. The Jews are making plenty of gelt and the Mohammadans are pumping out babies like they were manufacturing future bombers or something.

Perhaps we’ve reached that point where capitalism has procured the rope and now we’re on our own gallows.

Nunnya Bidnez, jr.
Nunnya Bidnez, jr.
Reply to  thezman
1 year ago

Don’t forget to include the Amish.
They don’t reject capitalism and commerce per se,
but they do reject much of the modern society’s norms and behaviours.

bilejones
Member
Reply to  Nunnya Bidnez, jr.
1 year ago

All three of them.

Badthinker
Badthinker
Reply to  bilejones
1 year ago

They’re all building houses in the white suburbs near me.

Cardinal Fang
Cardinal Fang
Reply to  thezman
1 year ago

What’s more, many fall for the siren’s call of the shiksa, increasingly in my observation, especially non-white, to seemingly improve their tolerance bonafides.
I know one that went for a shegetz/ shvartzeh combo platter.

Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
Reply to  Cardinal Fang
1 year ago

Dear God.

Hoyos
Hoyos
Reply to  thezman
1 year ago

Fun fact the more religious a Jew is, the more republican/conservative/right wing they vote world wide. There’s some weirdness about the state of Israel with Religious Zionism representing orthodox support for the state, and many orthodox groups who refuse to accept the legitimacy of the state (for entirely religious reasons) to this day.

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  thezman
1 year ago

Can confirm. All three children of one family of Right non-Orthodox Israelis I work with have out-married, all kids involved are far more liberal than their parents. I cite Jewish resistance to market modernity below, but the non-Orthodox are still suffering its effects, particularly in SoCal, even where the parents were Israeli-born and raised.

Zeroh Tollrants
Zeroh Tollrants
Reply to  thezman
1 year ago

Also, the out marriage rates for Secular Jews is extremely high. 100 yrs ago the Jewish pop of the US was 3.1%, (full Jewish, non Mischling), today it is around 1.7%, with huge Mischling numbers included).
Other than the Orthos, they are getting more mixed by the day.
Only American Indians have higher outbreeding rates, which are astronomical, btw.

Pat
Member
Reply to  thezman
1 year ago

It wasn’t so long ago that Monty Python and the world joked about Catholic birth rates in the western (white) culture….
Catholics indeed had some of the highest TFR and some 3rd world communities of Catholics still do. The fall of Catholic TFR is aligned with the infiltration of the Church and the erosion of the traditional teachings, which not ironically leads to modernism which embraces Capitalism instead of God above all (as your article describes).
See my previous comment to Calsdad above to know the starting point when Christian values were undercut to humanism = modernism = capitalism…

Bill
Bill
1 year ago

Another factor influencing the positive correlation between traditional religion and fertility may lie in the nature of religious beliefs: To the extent that a person believes it to be true, a belief in the existence of a benevolent loving God, who watches over you and has your best interests in mind— and who is guaranteed to prevail in the end— will naturally tend to produce an optimistic frame of mind in the believer. This effect will happen, regardless of whether the particular religious beliefs are in fact true; what’s important is that the believer believes them to be true. It… Read more »

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Bill
1 year ago

Good point. I hear in Cali all the time “why would you bring a kid into this world” etc. Kids are a bet on the future. However, TomA below (re: existential threats and birth rates) isn’t wrong either. If our social “scientists” weren’t so obsessed with bogeymen, we might get some hard numbers on how those two influences correlate or otherwise relate to fertility.

A.B Prosper
A.B Prosper
Reply to  Bill
1 year ago

The old Norse had plenty of babies but they hardly had an optimistic world view. They have a gloomy afterlife Hel for most too which was basically Sheol . Well unless Varg Virkirness is onto something An appreciation for ones people and culture and a stable way to live (in modern cities ) is what brings the babies not one religion or another Problem there is our corporate leaders want us rootless amoral strivers like them Hell I’ve seen them write freak out articles when people stop moving around chasing jobs because they need family nearby to get by saying… Read more »

the Russians
the Russians
Member
1 year ago

Obstacles and distraction effective enough to keep the fertile occupied until it’s too late. The recent spat of “climate emergencies” is just another example of the myriad of machinations hard at work (behind the scenes) being rubbed in our faces. Most effective, I must say.

Member
1 year ago

>The seller wants the buyer to over value the good or service, while the buyer wants the seller to undervalue his product or service.

You’re wrong about the market. The market wants to bring together a person needs a shovel, but has a sack of potatoes with a person who has a shovel but needs a sack of potatoes.

Anything outside of that is caused by regulation of the market– always done by people who despise markets and want them to fail (for the best-sounding reasons).

Member
Reply to  thezman
1 year ago

No. I have overcome the brain virus of libertarianism. But to blame “the market” for the excesses of socialism is EXACTLY what their last 90 years of infiltrating education was for.

(Edit) Additional note: The conversion of the trader’s market to the liar’s market is also a factor of just mixing too many nations with too many competing goals.

Member
Reply to  thezman
1 year ago

Every time you tell a buddy, “hey, come help me move this couch and I’ll give you $20” you are engaging in that mythical market. Problems start when your wife steps in and says “but I need to get fresh flowers for the table, so pay him $15 and give me $5.” Now, human nature means that the wife is always present… but nobody rational thinks that adding wives will solve the problem of wives. What needs to happen, on a society level, is society’s men need to spill something in the kitchen just before the transaction so the wives… Read more »

dindu nuffin
dindu nuffin
Reply to  Sunspot
1 year ago

So in your analogy the man needs to artificially control market participation? And we need to do this on a society scale?

Perhaps we could achieve this by placing rules on the market. Maybe we could call them “regulations”

Rod1963
Rod1963
Reply to  Sunspot
1 year ago

Yeah, yeah “the market” solves everything. Been hearing that from RINO’s and Libbies for decades. But in reality it doesn’t exist, and what we have is a rigged system that favors the wealthy and powerful.

Calsdad
Calsdad
Reply to  Rod1963
1 year ago

The wealthy and the powerful are only able to rig the system – thru government.

Yet according to A.B. Prosper – unless we let the government run shit – the private sector is full of waste and corruption.

Seriously – if this is the mindset of the people lurking here – we’re screwed. Feel like a must repeat for emphasis: I get the sense that all that’s going on here is a I’m watching a bunch of dis-affected lefties congregate to bitch about how their grand progressive project – has been taken over by the monkeys.

LOL

A.B Prosper
A.B Prosper
Reply to  Calsdad
1 year ago

There are no Libertarian societies anywhere outside of a frontier but many with a functional and large state in the West and of a different sort on the East What does this tell you? The government can run things pretty well examples it does charity cheap and better than anyone else could and often utilities My home town had city power which was inexpensive, reliable and had enough surplus capital to scale up. It went private and got expensive. What does that tell you Same with private water. The Feds basically brought modernity to Appalachia and much of the US,… Read more »

Calsdad
Calsdad
Reply to  A.B Prosper
1 year ago

The “West” is pretty much universally covered with large states. Which ones are actually “functional” ? If they were functioning the way they were supposed to function – then we wouldn’t be here on this blog in the first place. You apparently call what is going on these days “functional” – I call it thoroughly dysfunctional, again – when considered in the light of what is happening across MULTIPLE Western countries – and is driven BY THOSE GOVERNMENTS. The government doesn’t run a single goddamn thing well in my experience, and unlike the private sector – when it runs out… Read more »

A.B. Prosper
A.B. Prosper
Reply to  Calsdad
1 year ago

Other than immigration issues and the multi cult every single State in Western and Northern Europe is functioning very well for clown world thank you. They have much lower early death rates of all types and good life expectancy , usually a bit higher than ours . White fertility is roughly comparable , at times a bit higher among Whites in Scandinavia The caveat here, the UK doesn’t take burglary and home invasion seriously and thus have a lot more of it. The US even California tends to regard this is a very serious offense, multiple offenses are essentially a… Read more »

Dinothedoxie
Dinothedoxie
Reply to  thezman
1 year ago

When I was a young apprentice, a wise old journeyman told me that the only thing wrong with this craft is that everyone’s a liar and a cheat. By which he meant that people will take shortcuts and claim to have done or checked things when they haven’t. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve come to realize that applies not just to a specific building trade, but all areas of life. It’s a universal flaw of human nature that is only overcome with strict formal rules enforced strictly to the point of internalization and continuous oversight. It’s not a feature of… Read more »

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  Dinothedoxie
1 year ago

As an aside, but relate to your comment, there are a couple of guys on YT who live in China and report from there on their observations. One episode was on building in China and the extraordinary bad workmanship and the deterioration of all those new shiny apartment buildings and skyscrapers. Scary and fascinating at the same time. I believe their channel is “advchina”.

Badthinker
Badthinker
Reply to  Dinothedoxie
1 year ago

These rules are why we have had safe air travel for years. Pilots must follow the checklists and rules. But now the old guard is retiring and vibrancy is taking over….

Calsdad
Calsdad
Reply to  Dinothedoxie
1 year ago

If everybody is a liar and a cheat – then why the hell do we want to have an organization standing over us that is weaponized and given free reign to force us to do whatever those who are running it want us to do? Governments INEVITABLY are run by those who are the worst among us. Yet listening to the logic of people like A.B. Prosper – we should welcome that kind of societal organization. Sorry – I’m old enough to remember the Soviet Union, Chinese commies killing people by the tens of millions, Waco, Ruby Ridge, Kent State… Read more »

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  thezman
1 year ago

Worse, Libertarians ignore reality. When you ignore reality, you can not adjust your model. Hence when the model falls short, they simply ignore the problem and continue to wander in fantasy land.

Member
Reply to  Compsci
1 year ago

It’s impolite to continuously refer to me as a libertarian when I specifically said I had overcome the mind virus. What I am seeing more and more on the right-wing side of things is– as always– a determination to be “democrats lite.” I.E. If they promise a lot of socialism, the right counters with– less socialism. What this is convincing me of is that the progressives are perhaps the only people smart enough to actually run the world. They Trump’d you– they threatened you with so much socialism that your defense mechanism is to accept “a little socialism, as long… Read more »

SidVic
SidVic
Member
Reply to  Sunspot
1 year ago

impolite? Well fuck off then! hahaha

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  Sunspot
1 year ago

Sunspot, I hear ya—but you must not be reading this group long enough. I was a card carrying Libertarian for over twenty-five years and it still stings when Z-man chides me. ;-). However, for the rest of your comment, folks here I believe are wise to the feckless faux conservatives who “conserve” only Leftist gains in the political sphere, rather than truly push back the clock.

pimpkin\'s nephew
pimpkin\'s nephew
Reply to  Sunspot
1 year ago

Impoliteness is a terrible thing, which is why progressives should run the world.

That’s your point, right?

Rogeru
Rogeru
Reply to  thezman
1 year ago

“That’s always been the problem of libertarianism. they conflate theory with reality.”

I’ve come to the conclusion that libertarians have never met actual people.

John Pate
Member
Reply to  Rogeru
1 year ago

I think fundamentally Z has it nailed, most libertarians focus on the being able to smoke weed and pretending everything will be fine if everyone leaves everyone else alone and somehow never notice the absurdity of the Non-aggression Principle. The only way you get to be left alone to do your own thing is if they’re too scared to steal your stuff. The one thing they have got right is that taxation is theft.
If I had gunships in high orbit things would be a lot different, for sure.

Mark
Mark
Reply to  thezman
1 year ago

I must disagree. Ebay couldn’t exist in a world such as you describe. The whole “I send you crap, you send me a rubber check” paradigm would have killed it off as a platform for ecommerce years ago. The majority of these transactions must be worthwhile. You would run out of suckers eventually.

BadThinker
BadThinker
Reply to  Mark
1 year ago

The amount of scams of ebay are only limited by the absolutely *massive* effort that ebay goes to weed out scams. I get two calls a day on my cell phone from folks that want to talk about a problem with my credit card or auto warranty.

Calsdad
Calsdad
Reply to  thezman
1 year ago

LOL. When I read things like this I realize that there are no real solutions being offered here on these pages – and that my suspicion that most of the denizens here are nothing more than dis-affected lefties who are butthurt that the POC are horning in on their free shit party – is probably right on the mark. The market exists. If you’re going to claim that it doesn’t – you had damn well come up with a better explanation than just sounding like some progressive from 1910 bitching about how capitalism is screwing the people. “In reality the… Read more »

bilejones
Member
Reply to  thezman
1 year ago

Yet your bullshit is belied by the success of Ebay,
It’s the perfect example of an invitation for fraud: you send me crap and I send you a bad check and for a brief couple of months a facilitator class willing to guarantee both sides of the transaction for a 10% fee appeared. They vanished because the West (and certainly the Anglo-Saxon West) is rightly a high trust society. Thing may of course be different among those from the Russian hell hole from which you hail.
Genes will out.

3g4me
3g4me
Reply to  thezman
1 year ago

It’s not just a libertarian fallacy, but a paleocon one too. My husband, otherwise quite based, still parrots this fiction of the mythical, magical market. Our older son and I have tried every argument to make him realize it’s merely a theory disproven by human nature and reality, and he just retreats to muh government intervention – i.e. the real market economy just hasn’t been tried yet. Amazing which beliefs die hardest.

Federalist
Federalist
Reply to  Sunspot
1 year ago

Sunspot, you’re talking about all of the great stuff that happens in the free market, but the “free market” doesn’t exist. Even you seem to acknowledge this when you blame socialism. Whether you call it socialism, crony capitalism, oligopoly, corporatism, or something else, that’s what actually exists – not the free market.

pimpkin\'s nephew
pimpkin\'s nephew
Reply to  Federalist
1 year ago

You give Sunspot too much credit. He (or she) doesn’t know what all those intermediate ‘isms’ refer to, any more than Sean Hannity does.

Member
Reply to  Federalist
1 year ago

Any time you trade your buddy $20 for help moving a couch, you are engaging in the free market.

Any time you call your wife over and say “Honey? We can’t figure this out… will you help us decide how much money to trade and how we should move the couch” you are engaging all your isms.

Be a man, for God’s sake.

BadThinker
BadThinker
Reply to  Sunspot
1 year ago

Your buddy helps you move the couch because he’s *your buddy*. If you have to pay someone $20 to help you move the couch, they’re not your buddy, they’re your employee.

Note – pizza and beer are not *payment*.

Do libertarians have any friends or just “fellow economic units”?

Jack Boniface
Jack Boniface
Member
1 year ago

Even in capitalist countries, fertility does remain high among those most religious: Traditional Catholics, Fundamentalist Protestants, Orthodox Jews, orthodox Eastern Orthodox, fanatical Muslims, the most religious Mormons. They keys are, first, convincing young women to get married, stay married and have a lot of babies; second, to convince young men to marry the women and stay married to them. Third, for a religious group to support these young families above all with reasons to live such a life no matter what.

Yves Vannes
Yves Vannes
Member
Reply to  Jack Boniface
1 year ago

My grandparents lived in an ethnic neighborhood in a big city; life revolved around the parish church and school: 11 kids total Paternal+Maternal. 1920s-1950s. My parents started out in the same ethnic neighborhood in the same city around the same parish church and school: 4 kids, 30+ nieces and nephews. 1950s-1970s. I was born into the same ethnic neighborhood and went to the same parish church and school. We moved to the burbs when I was in Junior High School.Vibrancy chased out almost everyone over a 15 year period (1 square mile of European Catholics who had built and inhabited… Read more »

ConservativeFred
ConservativeFred
Reply to  Yves Vannes
1 year ago

I had a somewhat similar experience. My parents moved from the old megapolis ethnic neighborhood to a small town in the Upper Midwest in the early 1970’s. I think they saw the rising vibrancy and decided to leave before putting down their roots. Grandparents #1 held on a for a few years before selling and moving to a nondescript suburb. Grandparents #2 stayed in the same house until the late 1980’s. Visiting them was a 3d world experience (they were only mugged 3 times with 2 hospitalizations). In 2000 my sister was married in the old family church. It was… Read more »

Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
Reply to  ConservativeFred
1 year ago

Do it anyway. introduce your children to that part of their past. DO IT.

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
1 year ago

Agree, do it. Don’t let the bastards have the last word. Take the chance. Kids might think you an old fogey….but just perhaps in time, they’ll remember.

ConservativeFred
ConservativeFred
Reply to  Compsci
1 year ago

I went online and confirmed the parish and church are officially closed. I am not sure we could get inside without permission. All we would be doing at this point is driving by the edifice. Maybe some day . . .

Yves Vannes
Yves Vannes
Member
Reply to  ConservativeFred
1 year ago

The loss of the care and treasures they put into those old churches for generations is depressing. Like the great churches of Europe our families invested in beauty they assumed would last for ages. And now they are closed off or overrun by savages.

Range Front Fault
Range Front Fault
Reply to  Yves Vannes
1 year ago

Yves—good example and sad to hear for your family. Brings to mind Robert Putnam/Bowling Alone, reviewed by Derb. If I remember correctly, Putnam thoroughly documented and demonstrated the corrosive effects of multiculturalism on our communities, the destruction of trust. Putnam could not give name to the obvious and danced all around to avoid saying the name multiculturalism. My state of Utah is experiencing explosive growth. With the high tech jobs in Salt Lake and boomers, younger retirees and workers leaving other states to come here, you cannot get the transplants to admit many are escaping the decline of their old… Read more »

Bob
Bob
Reply to  Range Front Fault
1 year ago

My favorite is hearing the blame for housing prices doubling and pricing the young out of a house pinned on the high Utah birth rate and those darn mormons breeding too much.

Range Front Fault
Range Front Fault
Reply to  Bob
1 year ago

Ha! Bad news from Mormon World. This last Christmas neighbors exchanging gifts changed the pattern and turned a defined corner. Received only one batch of baked goods. Most LDS women work full time now. They gave foam hand soap, bar soap, candles, boxes of cocoa, and tellingly…a box of brownie mix with a little poem attached paraphased “I’m stressed. Here’s a box of brownie mix. Bake it yourself!” Watch LDS fertility rate begin to go down also.

Bob
Bob
Reply to  Range Front Fault
1 year ago

Economic pressures certainly exist to push people away from traditional family life. And sadly, LDS people often bow to them.

Yves Vannes
Yves Vannes
Member
Reply to  Range Front Fault
1 year ago

I have a friend who converted to the Mormon faith and married a Mormon girl 10 years ago in SLC. Around 5 years ago they moved to a smaller Mormon community in Wyoming. Cal-Pozz had infected The I-15 corridor

Range Front Fault
Range Front Fault
Reply to  Yves Vannes
1 year ago

Indeedski!

Range Front Fault
Range Front Fault
Reply to  Bob
1 year ago

It’s the lefties from the SF Bay Area moving into Salt Lake corridor, and retirees (often squishy left) from Las Vegas moving into southern Utah. Lesbian mayor of Salt Lake….points the direction Utah is going.

Educated.Redneck
Educated.Redneck
Reply to  Range Front Fault
1 year ago

RFF: similar story, but we Escaped Dodge to a bit further east. If you think pigs and turkeys are a pest, get some coyotes and mountain lions.

Range Front Fault
Range Front Fault
Reply to  Educated.Redneck
1 year ago

Actually, we did! We just about lost our old boy cat yesterday as he appears to have had a run-in with a “ferocious woodland creature.” He came within seconds of being chomped on. He’s a wee bit dusted up, but still squirting gallons of adrenaline and very overwrought. He’s our gay son who pumps iron then freaks out with lots of arm waving and talking about it. Either a coyote, or that red fox that goes hunting by, a bobcat or a waddlie but fast badger! Metaphore: The girl cat who leads with her nose took one wiff of Ollie’s… Read more »

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  Educated.Redneck
1 year ago

Well, I’m out West. Problem is not the rattle snakes, coyotes, cougars, javelina and what else, but the people also moving here. At night the coyotes call and yip in the wash behind the house and it would wake the dead, but hey, it’s Nature. Sometimes the dogs get at the pigs, you sew up the dogs and toss the pig carcass. Sometimes the coyotes get at the dogs—buy a bigger dog next time. It’s Nature, but tell the neighbors that. They keep asking for the Game and Fish folk to remove the native wildlife. Mostly it’s the wives. Annoying… Read more »

Badthinker
Badthinker
Reply to  Compsci
1 year ago

Friend of ours has two Ridgebacks. Fantastic dogs.

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  Badthinker
1 year ago

Yes they are. I’ve had three. Few years back, when they were younger, they use to go out into the field with the group looking for IA’s at the border. They’re big and stand-offish. Never had a problem with illegals in the field. They get some respect. Border patrol uses dogs selected for abilities, such as tracking. Fine, but you don’t get much respect having a great big Lab romping up and down the trail. 😉

Yves Vannes
Yves Vannes
Member
Reply to  Range Front Fault
1 year ago

I’ve spent the last almost 40 years years living in your old haunts after leaving the East. I live a 10 minute walk from the DiMaggio Bros. playground in North Beach. The entire Bay Area is pozzed central. It’s even dug it’s claws into the Sierra Foothills, has worked its ways up to Ukiah and down to route 152. Unfortunately what happened to my family over a few generation happened to millions of families in every urban setting and it is still going on. Any white community no matter how far off the beaten path is being targeted. We’re at… Read more »

Range Front Fault
Range Front Fault
Reply to  Yves Vannes
1 year ago

Yves….wish you luck and fortitude squared! I can visualize the areas you describe. Miss North Beach Pizza, exploring Chinatown, don’t miss people crap and psychotic crazies. The DiMaggio family haunt is closer to the delta in Martinez along the Carquinez Strait. The DiMaggio Bakery is still in operation on Main Street in Martinez, an old Italian fishing village. Yes, the whole state is pozzed. That’s why I abandoned ship and set sail for Utah. Would have gone north, but too much snow for too long. At 5,600 ft, we’re a half-hour from snow line and a walk in high desert… Read more »

Calsdad
Calsdad
Reply to  Yves Vannes
1 year ago

Who paid for the vibrancy to take over that neighborhood?

It wasn’t “capitalism” that gave out all the money to the non-Europeans that occupied your families former neighborhood.

The invading hordes sure as hell couldn’t have afforded to buy into that neighborhood without “help”.

What happened in 1965?

Bob
Bob
Reply to  Jack Boniface
1 year ago

Fun fact: Since about 1999 or 2000, the fertility rate in the LDS church has been decreasing. In the 90’s, the tone changed from parents and families held up as examples and praised to lonely old maids who keep on coming to church, to now where homosexuals who keep the faith are praised. Families are still encouraged, but aren’t given status over the childless, singles, or gays. I see a lot of unmarried women in my church who want to be married and have kids, but were told to wait for the very best and pushed into a career. I… Read more »

Rod1963
Rod1963
Reply to  Bob
1 year ago

Chances are if you trace back to who is promoting this suicide juice you will find the answer. My guess there are some closet “progressives” at the top pushing it..

If anything it looks like the LDS has been infested with the same sorts of people at the top that helped kill off a lot a protestant denominations by promoting a Lefty agenda. First it seems harmless enough but slowly they start changing more and more. Promoting more lefties into positions of power and then boom!! the church dies because people leave.

Range Front Fault
Range Front Fault
Reply to  Rod1963
1 year ago

As I have written before, the church became more members outside the US in the 90’s. Largest membership outside in Mexico and Brazil with temples up and down Central and South America. These people pay tithing. Their politics are Marxist to Marxist-lite. The church 1) knows which side the bread is buttered, and 2) is desperate to keep tax exempt status. That translates to open borders and ignoring national sovereignty, and …when the 2nd Amendment assault ramps up, think this church will fall over and wet on itself…oops…I mean take a stand. They’ll opt for the side which grants them… Read more »

Bob
Bob
Reply to  Rod1963
1 year ago

I can’t say you’re necessarily wrong, but I’d like to say it’s a little more nuanced than that. For BYU, that is 100% what you’ve described. Kevin Worthen is at the top of the school and is pushing everything to the Left. As for the actual Church proper, there is pressure to poz from the liberal element of general membership, especially the bureaucrats, but whenever anyone asks the leadership, they will say something like, “Women’s primary mission is to have children.” It appears to me that rather than signs of poz, the leadership thinks the gay agenda isn’t actually a… Read more »

Range Front Fault
Range Front Fault
Reply to  Bob
1 year ago

Bob, of course it is nuances and 7 card stud. Additionally consider this book title just printed last month: The Next Mormons: How Millennials Are Changing the LDS Church Book quote: “For a growing number of Millennials, the tensions between the Church’s conservative ideals and their generation’s commitment to individualism and pluralism prove too high, causing them to leave the faith-often experiencing deep personal anguish in the process. Those who remain within the fold are attempting to carefully balance the Church’s strong emphasis on the traditional family with their generation’s more inclusive definition that celebrates same-sex couples and women’s equality.”… Read more »

Bob
Bob
Reply to  Range Front Fault
1 year ago

The younger generation is more progressive. But it certainly is not a majority. Most of my millennial friends at BYU weren’t progressive and are married with kids. It was 2013 before I met my first sjw (of only four) on campus. My Utah ward is mostly millennial renters and has progressives, but again, they’re not the majority. The boys in the scout troop in my ward (not long ago) in the east bay area (not Martinez, sadly) were vehemently anti-feminist, anti-anti-racist.

Range Front Fault
Range Front Fault
Reply to  Bob
1 year ago

Bob….duly observed and well said. That is the current truth of the church.

Bob
Bob
Reply to  Range Front Fault
1 year ago

Don’t get me wrong, it’s not like the church is pozzed. I tried to explain in a reply to Rod1963.

Range Front Fault
Range Front Fault
Reply to  Bob
1 year ago

It is a gradient of pozz for the church to stay alive.

Bob
Bob
Reply to  Range Front Fault
1 year ago

The pozz started with the Enlightenment ideas of the equality of man, so everyone is on the gradient.

imnobody00
imnobody00
1 year ago

Great post, as the previous one. I think you have a part of the story. Capitalism makes obtaining money as the supreme value so it is in conflict with religious values. But democracy is also a very open system, where no opinion is better than another opinion, so we have to count to make a decision. Both go against religion.

In addition, as ConservativeFred says, it is not that the culture is open and, therefore, against religion (which is closed). It is that the culture is promoting an anti-religious ideology (liberalism), because this ideology is a tool to obtain power.

TomA
TomA
1 year ago

All species that experience high predation (or more generally, existential threat) are incentivized to reproduce in larger numbers in order to continue to exist. And this proclivity gets wired into DNA. Conversely, the extinction of existential threat (or more generally, the culling of the diseased or adversely mutated) leads to insidious genetic deterioration, which ultimately manifests as a fertility decline or colony collapse. Therefore, it may not be that capitalism per se is the culprit, but rather it’s handmaidens; affluence-driven extinction of hardship and culling.

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  TomA
1 year ago

Tom, good observation.

Yves Vannes
Yves Vannes
Member
Reply to  TomA
1 year ago

From the early days of the industrial revolution up until late in the 1800s the most affluent produced the most children. Yes, there are many structural problems with the way capitalism has evolved, but there are also other forces at work:symbiotic in-group relationships have decayed into destructive competition, outsiders have accelerated this trend(they didn’t start it but they have made things worse, a lot worse), the inversion of the natural order of being: biology>culture>institutions>politics>economics have been completely inverted. You’re spot on about the tempering that hardship performs…something we’re already getting a taste of and should expect a lot more of… Read more »

Tacitus
Tacitus
1 year ago

Don’t underestimate, Z, the effect of “educating” women. Whenever a globalist wants to globalize a new victim, one of the first talking points is “female empowerment” and female education. Women busy on school and careers in their most fertile years will squander their youth, and become barren and bitter. A quick Google search will yield numerous articles about the inverse relationship between education level (generally that of the mother, as a dominant factor) and fertility rate. Education, particularly the new college experience, makes a complete mockery of religion and morality. It is very, very hard to be religious or otherwise… Read more »

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  Tacitus
1 year ago

Good observation Tacitus—a small addition however. The negative effect you speak of has nothing to do with STEM (or non-STEM) per se. A STEM major is a proxy for high IQ and conscientiousness. Prior to WWII and the GI Bill, we had something like 6% of folk who went to college. Now that’s low—but not entirely off the mark wrt how many folk should be in post secondary education. A rigorous STEM course of study requires an IQ somewhere around 120 give or take. 10% of the country are at that level, but 40%+ last I read are attending post… Read more »

Tacitus
Tacitus
Reply to  Compsci
1 year ago

Compsci: I agree with most of what you said, it is your last statement that I take exception to (for which I will give my reasons). First, even though it is indiscreet, I was a (multiple) STEM major that culminated in a master’s in your name. Yes, absolutely there is a filter on the stem fields of intelligence. Physics is (in my opinion) the single hardest major at a university. That has an inoculating effect, especially when coupled with the tendency of those types to be narrow-but-deep interest spergs who don’t want distractions. These majors require a serious commitment outside… Read more »

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  Tacitus
1 year ago

Tacitus, not sure I follow you so I can’t disagree with specifics. My post is meant to speak to statistical averages, standards of education, and the numbers of folk within a first world country (such as the USA once was) who can meet such standards. When higher ed maintained its standard of rigor it meant that only a certain percentage of the population could meet those standards in the classroom, hence the bulk of the population was not accepted into the university. We have an idea of that percentage as I’ve stated. More than that number of individuals being accepted—and… Read more »

Gravity Denier
Gravity Denier
Reply to  Tacitus
1 year ago

It is disappointing to read that so many here seem to believe fertility and population increase are unalloyed improvement.

When you believe fertility is a value in itself, regardless of context, you are playing the corporate capitalist sucker’s game. The corporations aren’t out to see you lower your birth rate — they’re happy for you spawning like crazy. More customers. More demand for limited resources they can sell you.

Life on an overpopulated planet won’t be a free person’s dream.

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Gravity Denier
1 year ago

No one here is arguing for greater non-White fertility. Fertility is a value relative to that of other tribes. Only K-selected Whites & East Asians give a damn about “overpopulation.” If we get zerg-rushed out of existence by R-selected Obubus & Pajeets, nothing will ever be done to meaningfully limit population.

Gravity Denier
Gravity Denier
Reply to  Exile
1 year ago

No one here was arguing for greater non-White fertility, but until your comment no one was arguing against it. Of course population limitation for “Obubus & Pajeets” should be the priority, but if Whites assert their right to breed to infinity, how can they morally deny brownskins the same right?

Through various legal, economic, and cultural pressures we can discourage non-White fertility. We aren’t going to get away with population stabilization for them but not us.

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Gravity Denier
1 year ago

I agree. Where the relative numbers of racial poulations are more important short to mid-term than the overall, we need a multi-front approach. If we have means to limit out-group overpopulation, we should use them. Pushing feminism and atheism for non-Whites are soft-power options. Norplant-style reversible sterilization for public dependents is a hard-power option long overdue.

Mike_C
Mike_C
Reply to  Exile
1 year ago

I take your point, but strongly suspect that a world entirely brown and black would solve the problem of overpopulation in a few decades. It takes a nontrivial core of brains, technical ability, and integrity to keep running a complex society capable of producing sufficient food and other resources to support the population we have today.

Bob
Bob
Reply to  Gravity Denier
1 year ago

A capitalist who encourages fertility won’t get a bonus at the end of the year.

Tacitus
Tacitus
Reply to  Gravity Denier
1 year ago

Fertility rate and population increase are not identical. As another commenter pointed out, it isn’t whites or East Asians leading the population spike (anymore). There is a serious demographic crisis brewing due to the rate at which the decline is projected to occur. European people need to start having more children, or any. Children are the means through which tradition and culture are propagated organically. The ones who do have children are the lower fitness individuals responding to a very broken incentive structure. The ones not having children are generally higher fitness (intelligence). This will lead to a massive dysgenic… Read more »

Bob
Bob
Reply to  Tacitus
1 year ago

I grew up hearing how education prevented brainwashing. Look past the typical leftist projection and you see how their “education” institutions are 90% brainwashing. Even if you think religious instruction is also brainwashing, at least it doesn’t create crazed, blue-haired, tackle-faced, cat ladies.

BadThinker
BadThinker
Reply to  Bob
1 year ago

First time I’ve heard “tackle-faced”. Gonna steal that one.

Issac
Issac
1 year ago

It is the “western” elite, inimical to western people and religion in particular, which solves the puzzle. No characteristic of capitalism, communism, democracy, or oligarchy can be blamed for the neurosis of that ruling class.

Dinothedoxie
Dinothedoxie
1 year ago

To trite.

Iran – a literal theocracy has had a similar collapse in fertility. As has China, Vietnam and Cuba. The last vestiges of official communism on earth.

Whatever is causing the decline is a global phenomenon and transcends “capitalism”.

John Hume
John Hume
Reply to  Dinothedoxie
1 year ago

Iran’s fertility level is climbing again after a reversal in policy by its government, which at one point called for a “20 million man army” created by a baby boom, but started to introduce sexual education programs in the 80s and 90s. Khamenei has changed the gov’s mind again and, because large swaths of the population see the Iranian theocracy as legitimate, they are actually going along with it. Interestingly, Iran presents a case for how easily propagandized sexual education can be, as long as the recipient population is socially primed to accept the official narrative (perhaps because they see… Read more »

Nunnya Bidnez, jr.
Nunnya Bidnez, jr.
Reply to  Dinothedoxie
1 year ago

Check your facts…
Iran had a population of ~20million just prior to the revolution of the mullahs; it went way up to ~70million in the ensuing 4 decades. The “collapse” of their birthrate is a very recent phenomenon, coinciding with a disillusionment with the terrors of islam.

A.B Prosper
A.B Prosper
Reply to  Nunnya Bidnez, jr.
1 year ago

Or people in the industrialized world have just reached social carrying capacity. The difference between physical and social carrying capacity is that in social you may have shelter and calories but lacks civic participation of value and in physical, you aren’t eating Both are required for humans to thrive. The last couple of times the West overshot its capacity were the Black Death (too many people even for the complex feudal system to manage) and in early modernity with its colonies and mass executions We are actually doing exactly the correct think in the developed world to prevent a catastrophe,… Read more »

dad29
Reply to  A.B Prosper
1 year ago

…West overshot its capacity were the Black Death (too many people even for the complex feudal system to manage)…

Really? It was “overpopulation”? Not rats, totally inadequate sanitation systems, seriously inadequate personal sanitation…..

OK, then.

A.B Prosper
A.B Prosper
Reply to  dad29
1 year ago

Yes overpopulation. If you have too many people sanitation issues are a far bigger problem than you might see otherwise Also people were pretty clean in the 14th century outside of cities. It was the Middle Ages not the Dung Ages The situation was exacerbated by the sudden climate shift to a little ice age and the repeated famines caused by same . In the warm period, the land was at capacity with little surplus and when it got cold suddenly there were more people than the land could support. So people were hungrier than normal and with lowered resistance… Read more »

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  Dinothedoxie
1 year ago

Perhaps, but I’m for trite. Capitalism enables wealth, wealth enables Hedonism—a natural inclination in humans. Hedonism can basically be considered concern with maximizing pleasure. Raising children is not pleasurable, it takes time/resources away from practicing Hedonism. Reducing the number of children you have reduces this adverse effect. Prior to the industrial revolution, children had some value as family economic units, plus they had a tendency to die off a lot, so you needed a large number of them. This is no longer the case. Today we have Social Security. 😉 The only exceptions to the above I see in modern,… Read more »

Bob
Bob
Reply to  Compsci
1 year ago

Take Peru as a counter-example. They have very low income, but also a lower birth rate than the US when we had their level of income. More than wealth and hedonism is at work.

Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
Reply to  Compsci
1 year ago
Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
1 year ago

Once again MRV, the article dos not say what you imply. It says specifically that SSI will continue payouts, but at a reduced rate when the surplus runs out. This is by statute and currently estimated at this time to be about 75% of current payout.

Range Front Fault
Range Front Fault
Reply to  Dinothedoxie
1 year ago

Am wondering if this is a game of 52-card pickup, with multiple factors colliding leading to world decline in birthrate. As stated in threads above, we can recognize many cultural reasons for decline. This may sound a bit retrograde, but so many of the advances in modern society over the last 150 years may be leading to decline, and come with a price. Nothing is either/or….complex as always…unintended consequences. Examples: Pesticides in us, can’t think of the word for the chemicals in plastics that mimic estrogen, absorbed into body and turns men into weedy Euro weenies and women into blobs.… Read more »

Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
Reply to  Dinothedoxie
1 year ago
Clayton Bigsby
Clayton Bigsby
1 year ago

I dunno, I think like constellations, or global warming you can connect dots into almost anything in your imagination. To my mind advances in science, communication and education have led to more critical thinking and people realize or believe they are finite creatures. There haven’t been any advances in religion….no demonstrable Miracles like walking on water, or parting great bodies of water with the wave of a hand lately, Thus many try to get the most out of the here and now…men and women both…with no “consequences” to scare them into “acting right” its up to the individual….they are either… Read more »

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  Clayton Bigsby
1 year ago

I agree. And here I would add that oft quoted saw, that the problem is not so much a lack of belief in God for the disbeliever, but an insatiable need to replace such with a belief in all sorts of pernicious things.

BadThinker
BadThinker
Reply to  Compsci
1 year ago

Maybe Z is our generation’s Chesterton… an uncommon common man.

The Babe
The Babe
Member
1 year ago

Great, after Woke Govcorp locks us out of the financial system for our political views, God will reveal Himself to us in all His glory, and a heretofore unseen army of svelte, nubile tradgirls will spring out of the bushes directly into our arms. Eden awaits, gentlemen!

Dutch
Dutch
Reply to  The Babe
1 year ago

I, for one, am looking forward to all those Sears catalogue models from my junior high days to fall into my lap.

Educated.Redneck
Educated.Redneck
Reply to  The Babe
1 year ago

The Babe: YMMV, but I hear those sour grapes make lovely vinegar to wash down those blackpills. What alternative does a guy have – try to get a non-hambeast trad wife without shit I her face by trolling at an athiesm+ conference?

Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
Reply to  The Babe
1 year ago

What time will that start?

Rod1963
Rod1963
Reply to  The Babe
1 year ago

According to RT the SEC had approved MasterCard to cut off Right Wingers from their system. If this gets traction then VISA and the banks are next and guys like Z who want to go public can kiss their a** goodbye.

No more Digital Gulag but a Economic Gulag where you are rendered penniless.

Bob
Bob
Reply to  Rod1963
1 year ago

We all become Mennonites and live an actual trad life. TIL Mennonites like their guns.

Rod1963
Rod1963
1 year ago

It’s really says something when pre-WWII Polish peasants had a higher birthrate than their urban descendants. It says a lot about how terrible modern capitalism is. They did not have to contend with a modern market place and goods from all over the world. They did not have to put up with taxes, hordes of government officials and other parasites. Compare the American worker of circa 1975 to one in 2019. The latter works more hours for less pay when adjusted for inflation, pays much more in taxes, has little to no job security, In terms of raw purchasing power… Read more »

Dutch
Dutch
1 year ago

Observing my own young adult kids and their friends, I see a couple of things. One is that the old diversions, cars, sports, and the pool halls/pinball parlors, were mostly hangouts for boys, and that the girls eventually pulled a lot of the boys away from all of that and into establishing households (and babies, and church attendance, and so on). The movies were a diversion for both sexes, but they also represented a platform for courtship (among other social behaviors). Most of that is gone now, and boys don’t have their own places and things, quite so much. Two… Read more »

AltitudeZero
AltitudeZero
Reply to  Dutch
1 year ago

Yes, the United States had far more wide-open capitalism than today back in the 19th Century, and fertility was very high indeed. The Hasidim also have high birth rates, and are most certainly capitalist. Whatever it is in capitalism that suppresses fertility seems to be peculiar to modern capitalism, rather than the more traditional variety. There seems to be a synergy between capitalism and other factors in the modern world that have produced this situation.

A.B Prosper
A.B Prosper
Reply to  AltitudeZero
1 year ago

The US was a nation of business owners and a frontier. Outside of cities there were a plethora of ways to make a lousy living and more than a few good ones too. There was demand for strong backs and strong minds and often farmland for the taking Nowadays your job can be done with a machine or by some guy on Romania or Vietnam for much cheaper or by an immigrant for that matter We don’t have a yeomanry and we don’t have serfs since you can’t fire serfs . We have e employees whose families future is determined… Read more »

Cali
Cali
1 year ago

“Will to go” in the last sentence–is that a typo or am I just not parsing something?

Exile
Exile
Member
1 year ago

Proposition religions are ultimately no more viable than proposition nations. Universalist religions are particularly vulnerable to “market modernity” as they can’t be closed by definition. Anti-materialist religions will always be a tough sell in the material world. Christianity and Islam share both vulnerabilities. Both also depend on an elaborate faith and miracle-based theology that’s incredible in light of modern science. Judaism’s ethnocentric, materialist system that leaves theology more to the priestly caste and bonds the faithful through social and economic pressure has better weathered the storm of market modernity. While Jews are losing religious faith at a comparable rate to… Read more »

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Exile
1 year ago

Are there studies which break down the elements of religiosity related to fertility? I’ve seen sources correlating church-attendance with fertility but little else. I’m wondering what the “active ingredients” for fertility are within religion. Those are obviously the points I’d emphasize. As to social cohesion, there are certainly examples where intense faith has torn societies apart (the inconoclasm spasms, Reformation, etc). I’m not sure whether I’d prefer a society with religion at its center or periphery depending on those specifics.

John Hume
John Hume
Reply to  Exile
1 year ago

That’s a good point, we need both spirituality and an understanding of cold, hard material reality to make progress. The universalist, immaterial worldview of modern Christianity (including, sadly, my own Catholic faith) has turned into a massive Achilles’ Heel for the West.

The spirit needs a vessel – and tribes, kin, and soil are some of the best vessels around.

Bob
Bob
Reply to  Exile
1 year ago

I doubt any study would be possible. For starters, any study could only find correlation between fertility and x, unless you can create identical-looking congregations and teach them all the same doctrine, except for x, y, or z. Second, how could you pinpoint the “active ingredients”? Some churches might teach every week that you need to be married and have kids to go to heaven. Others might only give leadership positions to men who are married with kids, giving families status and prestige. Others might have customs/institutions that push young adults into marriage and have lots of support for families,… Read more »

Gravity Denier
Gravity Denier
Reply to  Exile
1 year ago

Both also depend on an elaborate faith and miracle-based theology that’s incredible in light of modern science.

You are confusing a primitive, superstitious level of religion with its spiritual core. Institutions and rituals are helpful to some in their search for God, but blockages when they become ends in themselves. At deeper levels, there is no conflict between spirituality and science.

Range Front Fault
Range Front Fault
Reply to  Gravity Denier
1 year ago

Per Derb, when taking the evening walk with the dear departed Toby, EVEN our dear math geek DERB had a favorite tree on that walk that he would pat! The moment Z landed in St. Petersburg and set foot in a taxicab, the cab driver unnervingly reminded him of his grandfather, almost a greeting and welcome home from his ancient motherland. These are a reminder I loving call “the great mystery.” I don’t want to attribute them to space aliens, don’t want to dissect them, analyze and write books about them, don’t want to attribute them to God or Jesus… Read more »

dad29
Reply to  Exile
1 year ago

2,000 years later, the “proposition religion” of Catholicism remains–and 5,000 years later, the “proposition religion” of Orthodox Judaism remains.

Next?

Vegetius
Vegetius
1 year ago

The perfectability of man against and/or outside nature seems the assumption shared by all major post-Enlightenment worldviews, however they differ on the means to accomplish this impossibility.

imnobody00
imnobody00
Reply to  Vegetius
1 year ago

The perfectibility of men is derived from the blank slate or tabula rasa. The tabula rasa is derived from the god of the Enlightenment, who is the SELF.

Instead of serving God, the Enlightenment serves the SELF (that is, the selfish biological impulses programmed by natural selection, which were adaptive in the Stone Age and they are maladaptive now). Therefore, it produces an atomistic society where everybody fights against everybody.

The different Enlightenment worldviews (classical liberalism, communism, political correctness) differ on the MEANS to serving the SELF. But the goal is the same.

Al from da Nort
Al from da Nort
Reply to  Vegetius
1 year ago

Vegetius;
Yes. It’s truly amazing to see that The Depravity of Man, the Christian tenant with the absolute most historical evidence to back it up, is so blithely cast aside. Yet another example for the great Thomas Sowall’s capsulation of Progressivism: Throwing out what works in favor of what sounds good.

BadThinker
BadThinker
Reply to  Al from da Nort
1 year ago

Just so long as we don’t go all the way to Total Depravity. The ‘elect’ are all busy inviting pedophiles and lesbians to preach in their reformed churches.

DeBeers Diamonds
DeBeers Diamonds
1 year ago

Off topic: My prediction about the media recruiting defectors from the Alt-Right has been confirmed. They even threw in a mention of deradicalization. Time will tell if they whet her appetite for attention, or they leave her to rot.

https://twitter.com/ScottMGreer/status/1123765477883416577

https://thezman.com/wordpress/?p=15977#comment-85516

DeBeers Diamonds
DeBeers Diamonds
Reply to  DeBeers Diamonds
1 year ago

https://t.co/7Q2qvZwfqu

Fwiw, I thought she was “odd” when I heard her interview with KMG Victoria 2 years ago.

Da Booby
1 year ago

What’s this “decline of religion” everyone’s harping about? Last time the Booby checked environmentalism, feminism, and multiculturalism are doing just fine. Not to mention all the other spoiled white kids who dabble in Buddhism, except when it causes them any inconvenience, or demands sacrifice or humility. What we’re seeing now is religion for the rich. The old religions demanded discipline, sacrifice, and humility. That was necessary for poor people trying to make their way in the world. And it all looks so silly to their spoiled-ass children and grandchildren, who see their new religions as exercises in moral superiority, narcissism,… Read more »

Dirtperson Steve
Dirtperson Steve
1 year ago

In The Fate of Empires and Search for Survival, Glubb notes that religion is strong in early/ascending empires but at the peak it weakens being replaced by Commerce (Capitalism) and decadence.

Near the end of the empires he observed, there was a resurgence of religion into those societies as they grasped for the values that once made them great…but it was too late. The Empire would soon cease to exist.

Gravity Denier
Gravity Denier
1 year ago

A feeling for transcendence will reassert itself in humanity sooner or later. The sun still shines behind the clouds.

NITZAKHON
1 year ago

It was several (!) months ago when I read an Art of Manliness (great blog IMHO) post about how we’ve switched – under the relentless slowly-slowly pressure of the Left through the popular culture – from having a life built as a shared venture between a couple married early, and having marriage being the thing you do as a capstone after you’ve built your career as a single. As to religion, I concur with most of the posters. I was an atheist* for many years; it was while my wife and I were seriously discussing children that my faith came… Read more »

JR Wirth
JR Wirth
1 year ago

Religion and children have something in common. Sacrifice. A firm belief in the future, and wanting to be part of it and pay a price to do so. With religion the real future begins after your death, an eternal one, that’s worth sacrifices in your life. With parenthood, you sacrifice your time and money for this child, who will be part of a future that you will never know. Who would sacrifice for this society? What are we sacrificing for? So Starbucks can come out with a new latte next year? Today’s society isn’t worth sacrificing for. Most churches are… Read more »

Al from da Nort
Al from da Nort
1 year ago

Z Man; If by ‘capitalism’ you mean the deification of ‘the marketplace’* in place of God, then you might well have a point about its malign influence on fertility. But Christianity is not anti-business or anti-market per se.** The First Testament, in particular, has a lot to say about the proper regulation of markets (e.g. no false weights and measures) but does not condemn them. It condemns *cheating* in the marketplace and makes it part of Godly rulers’ duties to police it. One striking thing about the discussion here is that many commenters seem to take the idea that Christianity… Read more »

JR Wirth
JR Wirth
Reply to  Al from da Nort
1 year ago

The absurd trend of “prosperity theology” in Christianity is one of the most destructive things I’ve seen. It spread all over, like dandelions. It’s already not aging well. This country is one big self-help section of Barns and Noble that’s gone terribly wrong. It’s driving everyone mental. And it’s precisely because of the insertion of the perfectible man into Christianity generations ago.

Al from da Nort
Al from da Nort
Reply to  JR Wirth
1 year ago

JR;
Right you are, but ‘prosperity theology’ is nothing new. It’s a damnable heresy because it implies you can buy God’s favor, thus denying His Justice and Impartiality: I.e. God’s no different from some pagan god who is powerful, arbitrary, capricious, and greedy (just like your king on earth).

It likewise implies that lack of prosperity or having misfortune means you are a particularly bad sinner (and we are all sinners). It’s partially what The Book of Job is about. IOW, sometimes troubles are one’s own fault: But not always.

BadThinker
BadThinker
Reply to  Al from da Nort
1 year ago

So many folks ignore one of the big points of Job – God seems to be even angrier with Job’s friends than with Job himself, since they keep telling Job he must’ve done something to anger God.

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  BadThinker
1 year ago

My summary on Job—derived from a Rabbi no less—is that: We (human beings) are meaningless in the Cosmic scheme of things; Justice, fairness and such are human concepts based on a limited/faulty understanding of the Universe; God is the only one great enough to understand the Universe; therefore Job concedes (the argument) by saying: “… therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.” and is forgiven.

My favorite book.

Badthinker
Badthinker
Reply to  Compsci
1 year ago

Chesterton had a great introduction to the book of Job as well.

Juri
Juri
1 year ago

Low birthrate is natural mechanism of purging bad genes and weirdos out. In current climate only strongest of us reproduce. Does anybody really want more liberals ????

JR Wirth
JR Wirth
Reply to  Juri
1 year ago

That would only be true if we didn’t have welfare, especially WIC. The only people multiplying have either the very best genes, about 5% of the population at most and the complete trash of society, that should absolutely not be replicating. It’s mostly imbeciles from Chiapas that are pushing strollers right now.

Juri
Juri
Reply to  JR Wirth
1 year ago

Normal gene white people would kick Chiapas out. Or better never let them in like big family born boomers.

Member
1 year ago

Problem is, everybody knows the marketplace is real while Christianity demands belief in supposedly historical tales that could not possibly be true. In the age of science, faith in the existence of invisible gods who live in the sky is hard for most intelligent people.

BadThinker
BadThinker
Reply to  Gary
1 year ago

What Christian gods live in the sky?? Not the unmoved mover of Aquinas, surely. Maybe the silly god of the American rapture-awaiting fundamentalist snake handler. Your midwittery is showing.

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  Gary
1 year ago

I love “anti”theists. They insist on arguing about religious beliefs, of which they have not the slightest formal knowledge of.

Cerulean
Cerulean
1 year ago

There was a long period of time when the U.S. was pretty much capitalist and pretty much Christian, with high church attendance. I think this is a problem for the thesis of this article. In spite of that, interesting reading as always.

A.B Prosper
A.B Prosper
Reply to  Cerulean
1 year ago

There were no computers than and automation was in its infancy.

The first time the US went low fertility was in the 30’s and funny enough, we had entered modernity .

As for the 50’s , we were socially democratic at the time with a demand bubble do to WW2 . Its not the same

Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
1 year ago

First of all, religion has not “died.” And it’s not going to. That’s a simple overstatement. But we know what you mean. Second, excellent article, as always. Hard as it is for me to believe, I am going to quote Noam Chomsky. Not quote, but paraphrase, I guess. Anyway, he said some years ago that capitalism, being about profit alone and nothing else, is profoundly anti-human and would therefore always forcefully support things like political correctness in all its incarnations. And he was right. Third, there is another explanation for the decline (which is by no means the first of… Read more »

NordicGoats
NordicGoats
1 year ago

Something occurred to me while reading the various anecdotes you described as a relatively common theme. It isn’t whether falling birthrates begat lower religiosity or vice-versa, nor is it whether increasing capitalism begat decreasing religiosity as the phenomenon appears to peculiarly afflict the nominally “Christian” people. Increasing globalism causes decreasing birthrates and decreasing religiosity. It is merely coincidence that globalism has been nominally capitalist in the past 75 years as it was through American hegemony that the globalism spread. Twenty-five years prior it could have easily been Bolshevism. Twenty-five years from now it could be Han communism. Or Russian Orthodox… Read more »

dad29
1 year ago

A better, less popular explanation for both the decline of religion and the drop in fertility is the spread of what we call capitalism.

Better word than “capitalism” is “materialism.” More to the point, worship of the wrong god.

Ursula
Ursula
1 year ago

Head-exploding post, Z Man. Surely blasphemy to many a good American Capitalist. Thank you.

Lance E
Member
1 year ago

Globalism != capitalism

Abelard Lindsey
Abelard Lindsey
1 year ago

Christianity is a fine as far as religions are concerned, and I know many fine, outstanding Christians. There may be a lot to recommend it. However, I have three fundamental issues with Christianity. First, its refusal to recognize the concept of individual self-ownership in the Randian/Rothbardian context. This concept of self-ownership has been the foundation of my self-identity and worldview since my teen years. I simply cannot and will not except any “meme” that does not recognize this principle. Second, along with this is the failure of Christianity (and all other religions) to differentiate between negative and positive rights (and… Read more »

BadThinker
BadThinker
Reply to  Abelard Lindsey
1 year ago

The worship of the self – ‘self-ownership’ – is the most common religion practiced today. Someone who is focused on their ‘self-ownership’ will not sacrifice for the family, the community, or the nation. Such a person has no place in a society where sacrifice is required (all human societies). A modern military of self-owned individuals would shatter against backwards mountain folk with a sense of nation (tribe) and purpose (we’re getting there in Afghanistan). This is why people hate libertarians (and why Ayn Rand sells so well to teenagers, who worship the self). I was there once too. Being hit… Read more »

Abelard Lindsey
Abelard Lindsey
Reply to  BadThinker
1 year ago

The purpose of a military is to kill large numbers of “the enemy”. Let’s just say I can think of more efficient methods of killing large numbers of “the enemy” that do not require me to join any military, and we can leave it at that. Let me give you a hint. Everything in this universe is about doing stuff, task accomplishment. If I want to do a fusion power start-up, I will work with a certain group of people. If I want to develop the bio-engineering to cure aging, I work with another group of people. If I want… Read more »

Badthinker
Badthinker
Reply to  Abelard Lindsey
1 year ago

To be clear, in your magical world there is no such thing as family or friends.

Abelard Lindsey
Abelard Lindsey
Reply to  Badthinker
1 year ago

I’ve got my friends. The difference between them and you is that they respect my long-term life objectives rather than criticize and judge them. Let me give you a hint. A true friend offers moral and emotional support in your pursuit of life objectives. If they don’t, they’re known as “fair weather” friends.

BadThinker
BadThinker
Reply to  Abelard Lindsey
1 year ago

So… “A true friend is a tool to be used in furtherance of my objectives.” Modernism at its finest.

I’ve already responded to you far to much than you deserve. Cure yourself of the brain virus. Your life is *not* your own. You do not exist in a vacuum. You are part of a nation and a family. If you cannot sacrifice for the good of your people, or at *least* sublimate your desires and turn them to the good of the group, then you *will* be cast out. It’s simple human biology – we are social animals, not individuals.

Abelard Lindsey
Abelard Lindsey
Reply to  BadThinker
1 year ago

I think we’re talking past each other. I did not say that I “use” other people to further my personal objectives. I don’t believe in using other people. What I meant is that a true friend will encourage you in your endeavors. Say I started a new business in nanotechnology, or I got that VP of Sales “dream” job that required me to relocate to Singapore. A true friend would say “right on, go for it, dude!” and would encourage me to do these pursuits. A true friend would not try to discourage me from these pursuits unless they thought… Read more »

Abelard Lindsey
Abelard Lindsey
Reply to  BadThinker
1 year ago

I tried to find a pdf I wrote a couple of years ago on this issue but could not find it. So, I will sum it up here. In short, all of the myriad misfortunes that can befall a person fall into four and only four categories: medical, financial, legal, and being a crime victim. A person has less chance of experiencing any of these events in a libertarian society than in any other kind of society. More importantly, a libertarian society offers more options enabling one to overcome any of such misfortunes than any other kind of system. This… Read more »

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  Abelard Lindsey
1 year ago

Your Libertarian society exists only in your head. It does not exist in the real world. No society has ever even approached your theoretical Libertarian ideal. Nor, given Libertarians ideas about how to accomplish such a society, will it ever exist. As such, you remind me of a Physics professor who continuously discussed “frictionless planes” in his examples on motion and computation of speed.

Abelard Lindsey
Abelard Lindsey
Reply to  Compsci
1 year ago

Based on my personal experiences, I stand by my previous point. If I could find the pdf I mentioned previously, I would post here so that you would get the point. I think you’re not getting the context of the argument.

Abelard Lindsey
Abelard Lindsey
Reply to  BadThinker
1 year ago

BTW, the group identity thing has never worked out for me. I tried it starting in high school. I found that I have the “Groucho Marx” problem with it. The groups I wanted to join would not have a thing to do with me and I would never join the groups that would have me.

Religion has never worked for me either.

BadThinker
BadThinker
Reply to  Abelard Lindsey
1 year ago

I don’t suppose you’ve tried looking inward to see how you’re relating to people? Maybe stop trying to be the smartest one in the room, shut up and listen for awhile. You might learn something. It’s a hard skill, especially for folks on the higher end of the IQ spectrum.

https://voxday.blogspot.com/2019/03/mailvox-getting-past-gamma.html

Abelard Lindsey
Abelard Lindsey
Reply to  BadThinker
1 year ago

Its not about pretending to be the smartest guy in the rooms. Its about being in that room when you could be out doing something else.

tz1
Member
1 year ago

Maybe “crony capitalism”, but the competition is supposed to be between buyers or between sellers, not between the two. A seller offers a good or service at a price. The buyer accepts it or finds a different seller. If a seller isn’t getting enough sales, he can lower the prices – there is a value to maximize profit. Too high and people will go elsewhere, too low and you don’t make enough, the rest is helped by heterogeneious things like delivery, packaging, service, return policies, etc. That can only work in a high trust society. Generally there is no haggling.… Read more »

Gravity Denier
Gravity Denier
Reply to  tz1
1 year ago

Make it some kind of equal thing, make it for careers or emotional fulfillment insead of children, and marriage loses its sacramental, life-giving meaning.

A loving commitment to a husband or wife has no “sacramental, life-giving meaning”? I guess for you individuals are just production machinery, for producing offspring.

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  Gravity Denier
1 year ago

Well, yes GD, that’s exactly the reason and history of marriage—the production and raising of children. All societies, no matter how primitive, have a form of marriage. The similarities all revolve around children and their upbringing. Without such, the society would in short order cease. Every other benefit is secondary. Yes, marriage can form certain legal and economic benefits for a couple, but that was always the case—even outside of marriage. It’s the children.

Abelard Lindsey
Abelard Lindsey
Reply to  Compsci
1 year ago

In other words, someone who does not want to have kids should not get married. Is that what you’re saying?

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  Abelard Lindsey
1 year ago

No. If children are not your thing, you need *not* get married. However, I recognize that marriage is a shortcut to a legal arrangement (contract) which provides certain rights and safeguards to both parties in the arrangement (as well as children if they arrive). Such safeguards would require a lot of language and agreement between two individuals intent on working outside of “marriage” and perhaps would not transfer from State to State or outside the country. So I can see “marriage” as being a convenient way to reach a contractual agreement. None of the above negates that marriage was historically… Read more »

BadThinker
BadThinker
Reply to  Compsci
1 year ago

Marriage is innate to human biology – all societies have some form of it, either 1:M man-woman, or 1:1 man-woman. 1:1 marriage provides a large number of civilizational benefits – less attractive men getting a mate typically means less violence. Marriage cannot be simply a State contract since it existed far before contracts were enforceable by the State. Marriages were how civilizations maintained themselves, hence why the celebrations of marriage in traditional cultures are typically very long and involved. The advent of ‘free love’ that has showed up on the scene recently is the herald of the death of civilization,… Read more »

Abelard Lindsey
Abelard Lindsey
Reply to  BadThinker
1 year ago

The “free love” thing lasted only about 3 years, ’68-71. You can imagine why it didn’t last long.

BadThinker
BadThinker
Reply to  Abelard Lindsey
1 year ago

Um… have you been alive the past 40 years? No-Fault Divorce *is* free love.

James_OMeara
Member
1 year ago

Huh. Was reading this just yesterday: “It is understandable why post hoc stories about religion as adaptation are popular, even among well-informed people. Intelligence is not a good predictor of having sensible views where political matters are concerned, since politics is about group loyalty more than anything else. Adaptive stories about religion seem to appeal an awful lot to European traditionalist-nationalists who are hoping to use Christianity as the conduit for some kind of renewed ethnocentrism to uplift the European spirit. The Chinese do not seem to need it, oddly enough. Nor even the Czechs, much closer to home. It… Read more »

BadThinker
BadThinker
Reply to  James_OMeara
1 year ago

The religion of Julian was prettty much completely lost when he tried to get it back. Christianity is not yet lost.

Sextus Empiricus
Sextus Empiricus
1 year ago

It may seem like changes are happening rapidly, but we may still be living in the world Nietzsche foretold in part – after the Christian God could no longer provide a common worldview and value system for the West (damned Enlightenment!), a multitude of new competing secular religions sprung up because, as Ed Dutton says, 80% of people have the “religious gene” and if there is no handy ubiquitous religion available, they will join up with libertarians, identitarians, socialists, narcissists, instagrammers, fascists, conservatives, etc. I think what Nietzsche wouldn’t have seen is that, for Islam, God is still not dead,… Read more »

BadThinker
BadThinker
Reply to  Sextus Empiricus
1 year ago

When I go into the office, I have a short trip on a train. The number of dour but relatively attractive (not fat) young women being pressed into the service of mammon makes me angrier and angrier every time I take the ride. I want to shout and scream at them…

Bob
Bob
Reply to  BadThinker
1 year ago

No, no, you have it wrong; they are liberated! Free to be corporate drones and #3 on some alpha’s boot call list. Far better than nurturing her children in a home she runs with a man who flatters her body every night. Obviously.

BadThinker
BadThinker
1 year ago

There is an excellent essay on capitalism at The Agonist. It describes how modern capitalism destroys all the bonds that hold us together (religion being a part).

“The stable family structure based on traditional sexual identities—in generation-to-generation transmission of heritage, embedded within a larger community—must be broken down and reconstructed into the image of Homo-Neoliberal Man, of whom the homosexual—childless, self-determined and autonomous—is the ideal archetype.”

The Great Pozzining the *goal* of unfettered capitalism.

Old Vic
Old Vic
1 year ago

I didn’t leave the church (ELCA Lutheran) it left me. The left destroys everything

B W
B W
1 year ago

Correlation does not equal causation.

Michael Bradley
Michael Bradley
Member
1 year ago

Most of these changes could be related to sex and reliable birth control. When one can have sex without procreation, the “need” to get married early disappears. Once they get use to serial monogamy or whatever arrangement, the inertia works against marriage and kids. It is also hard to reconcile this lifestyle with church, so people just quit going.

PhysicistDave
PhysicistDave
1 year ago

You said: In [capitalism] where the highest good is a profit, then all other considerations must be secondary. Lying, for example, is no longer strictly prohibited… Religion, in contrast, also assumes certain things about people, but seeks to mitigate and ameliorate them. Because, after all, clergymen almost never lie. Unless, of course, you count Catholic pedophile priests (and the bishops who covered up for them), mainline Protestant clergymen who systematically lie about what they actually believe (see Rev. Jack Good’s The Dishonest Church), the fundamentalists preachers who lie about almost everything (I remember the preacher at the church my family… Read more »

Michael Bradley
Michael Bradley
Member
1 year ago

Capitalism as a system were buyer and seller lie to each other, is accurate only in the case of two people who never have to deal with each other again. But markets consist of many participants who by their own desire to trade will undercut the bad high offer or low bid. It self corrects, and if that alone were not enough, it beats the alternative of each of us stealing the other guys stuff

Badthinker
Badthinker
Reply to  Michael Bradley
1 year ago

It only self corrects in high trust societies. It has not self coreected in China, a notorious bandit culture.

Michael Bradley
Michael Bradley
Member
Reply to  Badthinker
1 year ago

Go to China and try to sell rice for a five dollars per pound. You’ll feel the correction immeadiatly.