Democracy

When I did the podcast on libertarianism, I re-read Democracy: The God That Failed, as a refresher on the more responsible brand of libertarian thought. I wanted to be fair and I wanted to address their best arguments. It had been a while since I read the book and I was reminded of some things I really liked about Hoppe’s treatment of democracy. I reject his materialism, of course, but some of his language is useful in discussing democracy in the modern age. As is always the case, there are useful things in every book.

Democracy has become an almost esoteric concept since Hoppe wrote his book. That’s one of the things he missed in his treatment. It is something the paleocons picked up on in their analysis of the managerial state. Government needs legitimacy and that can only come though a foundation in or an attachment to the transcendent. Democracy in the modern age has matured into a religion of the state, but a religion with a mystical sense of the supernatural, one that goes unspoken, but is always hovering on the periphery.

Anyway, I have not written much about the topic, so it seemed like a good subject for a podcast. It also dovetails in with some other stuff I plan to write about in the coming months. It’s also a good way to introduce the walking dead on the other side of the great divide, who need help coming over the river to our side, to some of out critiques of the modern age. As with the show on libertarianism, this one could have easily been three hours, so I had to take many shortcuts and a fair amount of artistic license.

This week I have the usual variety of items in the now standard format. Spreaker has the full show. I am up on Google Play now, so the Android commies can take me along when out disrespecting the country. I am on iTunes, which means the Apple Nazis can listen to me on their Hitler phones. The anarchists can catch me on iHeart Radio. YouTube also has the full podcast. Of course, there is a download link below. I’m now on Spotify, so the millennials can tune in when not sobbing over white privilege and toxic masculinity.

This Week’s Show

Contents

  • 00:00: Opening
  • 02:00: Why Democracy
  • 12:00: Expansionism
  • 22:00: The People’s Money
  • 32:00: The Fate of Religion
  • 42:00: Conservatism In Democracy
  • 52:00: The Managerial State
  • 57:00: Closing

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Guest
guest

What happened to episode #56?

Tax Slave
Guest

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Member

She has Crazy Eyes in every picture I see of her

Moran ya Simba
Guest
Moran ya Simba

She’s not per se bad looking. But she is crazy looking as hell.

CAPT S
Guest
CAPT S

You’re on a roll Z-man … thanks for your monumental efforts; this is time-consuming work. Will listen to the podcast later, and maybe you’ve already done this, but I recommend very carefully defining terms; e.g. democracy vs republic vs libertarian … socialist vs fascist vs communist. Of course these aren’t interchangeable terms, and while there is often some intersection and overlap, defining the terms is necessary to educate “the walking dead on the other side” … in a world of postmodern relativists, objective definitions of opposing worldviews is the all-important entering argument. Again, I look forward to the podcast, but… Read more »

Moran ya Simba
Guest
Moran ya Simba

Z is pretty strong in the no taboos common sense department. It’s pretty rare, even among the ‘woke’ to be willing to look critically at democracy as a concept, do it publicly and not be a nutjob, all at once. I dont agree w everything he says but then again I dont agree w my past self always and my future self will probably find today’s edition of my views pretty damn blue pilled.

Member

Kings didn’t own all the land in the country. Broadly speaking, from the Middle Ages until the French Revolution, the land was owned by the nobility – of which the king was one, of course – or yeoman farmers. As a child, Louis XIV was one of the poorest noblemen in France, with his sheets in tatters and his robes in rags.

Member

On the contrary, dunno about the Sun King, but William the Conqueror absolutely owned all the land of England. Cash flow is a different issue, dependent on expenditures and rents.

Member

William did not own all the land in England, even then the Church was a landowner,

Member

“Cash flow is a different issue.” Fair point, but Louis didn’t own all of France, he didn’t even own all Bourbon lands, not even close. And, as bilejones said, neither did William. William paid off his army by granting land to his noblemen, but that doesn’t mean nobody else owned land. The Domesday Book tabulates land ownership in England quite meticulously. I forgot to mention that the Church usually owned large tracts of land, and it’s only when the kings start to confiscate church property that they start to get really wealthy. The best book I’ve read on the subject… Read more »

Dover Temerson
Guest
Dover Temerson

This (and the right wing in general) is nothing but mere lamentation by mediocre middle aged white men about their loss of unfair privilege.

How much of the anger expressed here is disappointment in the self, I wonder?

I have found that most of the white men in the right wing tend not to have children. Why is this? Why do white women increasingly look to Men of Color to give them offspring? Why are you guys so ineffectual?

The truth is “western civilization” NEEDS People of Color to add courage and vigor to a dying stale past-seeking stale pale decaying society

https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2017/01/30/trump-immigration-ban-the-americans-we-need/

Shane
Guest
Shane

Guess this is trolling but it’s kind of been done to death. The truth is that women bless em tend to be th audience, informers and enforcers of the prevailing moral order. With the current one which is psychotic, it tends to make the ladies a bit so. Overwhelmingly the case when you see the clerics of the new faith (((Judith Butler perfect example))). In reality as much as it’s promoted INCESSENTLY race mixed couples are very rare. Those that are increasing are one’s that go against the tenents of the Cult of Dildolech, White Man & North East Asian… Read more »

Shane
Guest
Shane

Meant to say reversed.

Member

A good troll doesn’t look like one. Tiny has lost his fastball.

Member

Yawn…

Juri
Guest
Juri

“””…I have found that most of the white men in the right wing tend not to have children. Why is this? …”””
Instincts. Men feel that great hunt after communist is near and they don,t want anything to disturb them going after white communists. People in the west just conditioned this all equal crap and don,t understand the invisible side of war.

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

DT, some women do ride the carousel, and they do prefer men of stability and making a good economic living. But after midnight and too many drinks, all cats are grey…

Men of color, they are great opportunists, I will give you that.

Mike_C
Guest
Mike_C

>mediocre middle aged white men
How dare you presume I’m white?
Triggered!

…still trying to use up that 50-lb bag of Purina Troll Chow. Sigh. Note to self: “Just because it’s on sale doesn’t mean it’s a bargain.” Write THAT on your hand in Sharpie, dumbass.

Moran ya Simba
Guest
Moran ya Simba

Dover Temerson, Im pretty sure you misread this. Plenty here Im sure have good jobs, careers, gfs, wives, kids etc. To me, this blog and others like it, are white men, and a few women and maybe Asians etc, sticking their cyberheads together saying ‘do you also see it? Arent we collectively going in a fucked up direction??’ The end of other regimes began this way and so will the end of the cultural marxist stealth regime. Or why do you think they re so busy trying to shut places like this down, if it’s just a ‘pale loser sausage… Read more »

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

When all you got is the Hammer, everything starts to look like it needs to be nailed

Member

Make of this what you will but in Victoria Canada they removed the statue of John MacDonald, first prime minister.

DeBeers Diamonds
Guest
DeBeers Diamonds

When the regime changes, the statues get toppled. It’s ludicrous for us to expect the left to extend us courtesy. We are supposed to “reconcile” ourselves to the new order, and the left is justifiably enraged that YT isn’t assimilating into multikult. If the statue isn’t on private land, it’s doomed. If anything, we should covertly encourage removal of as many of them as possible for accelerationist purposes.

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

DeBeers, I don’t think a statue’s being on private land will help it much, unless it is hidden. Assimilation does not respect private property.

De Beers Diamonds
Guest
De Beers Diamonds

Correct, Antifa vigilantes will not allow the presence of anything problematic. I was speaking in terms of city councilors and judges, neither group is yet willing to overturn property rights in Anglo countries in favor of socjus, though we are on that trajectory.

wjkathman
Guest
wjkathman

Two from H.L. Mencken:

“Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage.”

“Democracy is the worship of jackals by jackasses.”

It shouldn’t require much thinking to realize that democracy caters to high-time preferences and thereby inevitably paves a road to suicide. Yet, under democracy, skepticism toward democracy is exceedingly rare. One does not question the faith.

Great podcast as usual, Z-man!

Drake
Guest
Drake

Kids going back to at least my school days in the 70’s learn the Athenian Democracy was something really great. The never get the lesson that it was never stable and constantly in crisis. It was prone to colossal blunders and stupid mistakes at the most critical of times. It kind of worked when it was just the city-state of Athens in peace time (kind of like a New England town meeting system can work for a town). But as soon at they tried to expand themselves in a Mediterranean Empire, the cracks started showing and it was just a… Read more »

Member

“Government needs legitimacy and that can only come though a foundation in or an attachment to the transcendent.”

To say it needs it is not to say it deserves it. If the “transcendent” is bogus — which it is — then all you’ve done is state a deficiency that must be lived with.

gwningod
Guest
gwningod
Member

It’s a free country. You can believe nonsense without proof if you want to. But I don’t have to see the absence of unearned legitimacy as a “problem”. Things that can’t be fixed aren’t a problem.

DeBeers Diamonds
Guest
DeBeers Diamonds

Bad news here: three-quarters of those polled agreed with censorship by the Silicon Dons. It’s a low marker of our character that our people haven’t moved en masse to Gab, for fear of accusations of backing a long vanished German workers party. Many of our most effective people have been banned from mainstream social media, along with the Russian trolls sowing division within the left. We must adjust our tactics accordingly.

DeBeers Diamonds
Guest
DeBeers Diamonds

Source poll, probably the best not to give the Hill any clicks.

https://www.freedomforuminstitute.org/first-amendment-center/state-of-the-first-amendment/

Juri
Guest
Juri

“”…along with the Russian trolls…””

Well, I am Eastern European troll but never mind. Russia is scared like hell with all the rest of the planet also. The problem is, when US descend to complete madness and anarchy, what will happen to US WMD ?
Who are the people controlling US WMD ? Probably they are people appointed by lunatics like Obama and Brennan. When things turn ugly, are they ready to push red button by their own initiative to put end to Nazism and racism on the planet Earth forever ?

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

Juri, I wouldn’t worry too much. Kong, Ripper and Turgidson have it covered.

Moran ya Simba
Guest
Moran ya Simba

I need an ‘lol’ button now

Member

Don’t worry. I’ve got your US WMD right here.

Pimpkin's Nephew
Guest
Pimpkin's Nephew

It’s sensible for people of the world to be scared of the USA. It’s no longer a state ruled by mature actors.

The “democratic socialists” now claiming the wheel of our bizarre and dying country will end up firing missiles on anyone and everyone, including their hated fellow Americans, to save the whales, or the icebergs.

Moran ya Simba
Guest
Moran ya Simba

Not sure I agree but I accept the premise of Juri’s concern here. Leftie in America is nuts and feels omnipotent, more or less. Some of them are batshit crazy. No one, except for maybe them, believes a cold-balled power guy like Putin, or the collective tough guys in charge in Beijing, are gonna go on a rampage and fire their doomsday junk. No one really believes modern Britain or France would ever have the spunk to fire anything. But take a self-righteous leftie SJW in the Oval…..well, could get dicey. A sheltered life and Hollywood induced blind belief that… Read more »

De Beers Diamonds
Guest
De Beers Diamonds

The British, after the Boer War wanted to settle large numbers of Chinese in South Africa to work in the mines. The Afrikaners thought that blacks would be easier to control, and so got the Chinese immigration stopped for fear they would be just like the Indians. At this point, the PRC has a higher regard for property rights, and even minority rights, than the ANC. A fractured America would likely see its West Coast become a PRC vassal.

Moran ya Simba
Guest
Moran ya Simba

As someone who used to be ‘blue pill right of center’ (there’s a word for that but I hate using it about myself even in past tense lol) and accordingly that ‘apartheid was wrong and had to go’, I saw an interview not too long ago w, I think Botha or one of the other old school Afrikaaners, explaining apartheid. Frankly contemporary SA is proving they were fundamentally right. Remove apartheid/white control of the state, you get banana republic, ie you let ‘Africa win again’. There are smart individual blacks, just like there are individual competent female leaders. But, as… Read more »

De Beers Diamonds
Guest
De Beers Diamonds

You are more optimistic than I am, there’s a Judean People’s Front phenomenon that occupies dissident politics. And that’s before we get around to facing the problem of police informants. The South African Right has a bit of an advantage in that there aren’t enough white leftists anymore that can spy within the Afrikaners, the police/military have severely degraded. By contrast, the BNP and UKIP were easily infiltrated by MI5, and MI5 informant even became leader briefly.

Moran ya Simba
Guest
Moran ya Simba

As someone who now believes it is not ‘paranoid’ to buy more ammo than you intend to shoot on the range or hunting Im not sure Id call myself ‘optimistic’ but maybe I am still somewhat bluepilled? I do believe that as the situation sinks, our ranks will swell but we ll see I guess :-/

De Beers Diamonds
Guest
De Beers Diamonds

I wouldn’t say..uh…that we are facing any kind of weapons problem here. If anything we should be trying to encourage the armament of similarly inclined dissidents in other countries. Guns don’t matter as much unless people are going to use them. Our people face the peril of being reduced to postal money orders for fundraising, no one has yet found a solution to get us back into causing the disruption we were doing from 2014-16.

Moran ya Simba
Guest
Moran ya Simba

You mean we re being booted from cyberspace?

Agree about guns. People who mean business about standing for freedom should supplement range time by studying WW2 SOE manuals or similar.

A.B Prosper
Guest
A.B Prosper

The West still thinks its a high trust society. Once they stop doing this, it will become much harder to infiltrate and they infiltrators will find them selves infiltrated I mean the entire US security clearance database was leaked back in 2014. Its was probably the Chinese but who knows, its arguably the most valuable intelligence haul in the world and we can do nada about it. Of course once we realize that we are no longer a high trust society, the West comes to an end and breaks up into its historical norms, several hundred small homogeneous polities This… Read more »

Rod1963
Guest
Rod1963

Yes if things go against they may get the “football” and take the world with them. Our only hope is that there are enough sane heads in the military to shut down that avenue for them. I think there is. Sure a lot of generals are lackies, but they do have enough brains to realize launching nukes is flat out insane. Once the military disobeys a sitting president, it’s over for the ruling regime for allowing it to go this far. I do not think the ruling class is any shape to say “no” to a Harris or Biden doing… Read more »

A.B Prosper
Guest
A.B Prosper

The USSR was nearly as whack as we are now and they didn’t use nukes. Happily our nukes probably aren’t going to work in a couple of decades so all we have to do is make sure they don’t decide to use them or lose them If you are wondering why, we have a severe shortage of tritium for triggers and no means to make more. The resupply will be out in around 7 or so years and tritium itself has a half life of 12 years We might be able to buy more, maybe but few people want to… Read more »

Moran ya Simba
Guest
Moran ya Simba

Roughly halfway through. Voters as ‘customers’ who, instead of buying, or renting, your product, pay w votes, and they become customers w the stroke of a pen. Interesting analysis, I buy it. It explains why democracy is expansive in nature and why leftists etc dont see it as ‘treason’ to just let ‘everyone, even deep in the Amazon, vote for, say, mayor of Bumfuckingville, Nebraska.’ It’s not about ‘national identity’ or anything like that, hey, they’re just selling a product. It inflates the value of voting, and of citizenship. But, those pointing that out can easily be accused of being… Read more »

Al from da Nort
Guest
Al from da Nort

M. y S.

Seems to me that the casualty in the coincident decline of religion and the spread of complete democracy could as well be that the decline in religion, most especially Christianity could run the other way. I.e. that it was the decline of religion that resulted in the collapse of moral and political standards that, in turn, caused the mindless spread of complete democracy based on rank emotionalism.

Love
Guest
Love

Hans Hermann-Hoppe pointed out that Marx got the inspiration for his bungled up class analysis from the classical liberals which had already identified the oppressors and the oppressed as those who tax and those who produce.

Classical Liberal Roots of the Marxist Doctrine of Classes
https://mises.org/library/classical-liberal-roots-marxist-doctrine-classes

Marxist and Austrian Class Analysis
https://mises.org/library/marxist-and-austrian-class-analysis-1

Marxist and Austrian Class Analysis
https://mises.org/library/marxist-and-austrian-class-analysis-0

Ben Wagner
Guest
Ben Wagner

Would the US be more durable politically if we had stuck with Constitutional federalism instead of states ceding their 10th amendment rights to the feds? Seems like the present day uneducated masses are always looking for national solutions to every problem.

Moran ya Simba
Guest
Moran ya Simba

Some form of rolling back democracy seems necessary. Right now, its a slow mo train crash. I dont yet know what I think should be done. So for now Im sucking in ideas etc.

Member

Do you mean you’re taking in ideas, or that you suck at having ideas right now?

Moran ya Simba
Guest
Moran ya Simba

I did mean the former. But, both I guess. Taking in ideas in the sense that Im interested in reality- and logic based discussions of both democracy’s deficiencies and suggestions for its improvement or even replacement, that acknowledges race and gender realism and hence fundamentally that life is a darwinian game at the end of the day. And ‘suck at having ideas right now’ in the sense, that while I could easily suggest replacements for democracy, none of them seem likely to work out better, and most far worse, than democracy. W the exception of ‘make me the f*cking dictator,… Read more »

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

Frip’s a bad doggy. No treats!

Rat poison? Interesting.
Stalin’s daughter, Anna, died in her humble cottage in Wisconsin a few years ago.

She was the one who held her father’s office door shut, refusing all entry, while he laid on his desk, his face turned black from choking on his own tongue, for 10 hours until he was dead.

That little white-haired old lady glared suspiciously at the photographer from her dirt driveway. A princess in exile, the daughter of an emperor.

I thought to myself, nobody realises that this was a brave lass who once saved the world.

Moran ya Simba
Guest
Moran ya Simba

I didnt know she blocked the door, interesting!! I thought Khrushchev, Beria and the others were fearing another purge. Btw, Im not sure he was killed but it seems plausible and there are certainly rumours about is.

You wouldn’t happen to have a link to her story?

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

(Heard it on John Batchelor, WABC New York)

And thanks Frip, bringing up and pinning Rotten Chestnuts now. Severian is always a hoot

Moran ya Simba
Guest
Moran ya Simba

Thanks, both. I ll check out that blog.

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

*update*
Judas. H. Preist, Rotten Chestnuts is *seriously* smart and witty fun.

It’s the perfect corollary to the Z blog.
I’m going to start reading both daily, in tandem.

Stop 1. The Z blog
Stop 2. Rotten Chestnuts
Stop 3. @HappyHectares

Member

Simba, seems you’re often looking for solutions. There’s a blog Z’s mentioned a few times called Rotten Chestnuts run by a semi-wackjob man-with-a-plan type named Severian. It’s often strategy/solution themed.

Moran ya Simba
Guest
Moran ya Simba

Im liking it so far, thanks.

http://www.rottenchestnuts.com/

dad29
Guest

Patrick Deneen is also rather queasy about democracy as practiced in the USA, with (I think) the same underlying premise: it will lead to the demolition of Western Culture, or the Christian tradition (you can include Judaeo- if you prefer.)

Hmmmm.

John Smith
Member

I might be wandering off into the trees again, Z. But something doesn’t jive with the notion that ‘democracy is killing Christianity’. I am new to the faith, and at best – a theologian of outhouse credentials. But Christianity is based on democracy. It took off like wildfire because it did away with the need for circumcision, special diets and other traditions that drove the Joos of the day up the wall. Didn’t matter what colour you were, who your parents were or what your social status was – if you accepted the faith, you accepted the lord as your… Read more »

Cerulean
Guest
Cerulean

Glen, I’m not sure I would say that Christianity is based on democracy. (The big caveat is that there are many Christian traditions with many different takes on details of theology and church governance. ) Probably most Christians through history would have said — with various qualifications when you get down to it — that respect for other people is a big part of Christian life. Most Christians would say that anyone can become a Christian. That’s not necessarily the same thing as democracy. The denomination I belong to teaches that among Christians there are not varying degrees of worth.… Read more »

Dupont Circle
Guest
Dupont Circle

Another wrinkle: One hundred percent Democrat DC council now wants to enfranchise 16-year-olds at all levels, including presidential, after rejecting fhe same proposal 2 years ago. Reading a few articles it appears they want them for gun control following Parkland. And I would lay odds to eventually eliminate the electoral college after Trump’s victory.

Member

I’m going to watch the Matrix for the first time tonight. Am tired of hearing all the Matrix references on the Alt-Right and not understanding. I gather a red pill will be involved. Got the 3 disc trilogy on Blu Ray.

Shane
Guest
Shane

It’s aged terribly. What was it about the late 90s that every ‘edgy’ place had a series of tools looking like a NIN tribute band. The first one is fairly entertaining but it’s a seriously bad nose dive afterwards. The pill terms when used on our side are a reasonably good analogy. I reckon a lot of our first experiences to contradict the Narrative, the first red pill particularly the younger lads came from Game and the PUA lads. Return of Kings is legitimatly pretty tabloid but it leads on to deeper waters. Then comes the nature of sexes, and… Read more »

BestGuest
Guest
BestGuest

LOL. It’s been a long time since I saw the first movie (#2 & #3 were horrible) but your review/comment really made me laugh. I think it would be great to have a Dissident Right MST3K-like vehicle for commentary on iconic movies/TV/etc.

Shane
Guest
Shane

Pretty good idea actually, bunch of normies or chads, irreverent but smart talking about general popular culture giving people non pozzed entertainment options. Z had an idea about a sportsball show with a not to human biodiversity. I’m watching The Terror at the moment, seems promising.

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

A visual delight, right from the first few seconds. The movie itself was the red pill.

Don’t listen to the sniffy dilettantes.
Like the Terminator, this one left a mark.

Whenever I was having a bad day, I’d think to myself “Bah, this is just the Matrix”.

Shane
Guest
Shane

Have to say I was always a big fan of Terminator, we’ll the first two. In fairness any of James Camerons stuff up until Avatar. Aliens was my favourite film as a kid. To this day it and Robocop would be my default films. The 80’s was a golden age for sci fi. Robocop as a satire is spot on, from the amoral corporatism, the crass consumerism. Starship Troopers is a guilty pleasure. As I’m heading towards 40 I’m starting to admire it’s politics…….

Member

First is the only good one, the rest well I warned ya.

Shane
Guest
Shane

Terminator or Matrix Dave, although it’s somewhat applicable for both

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

*ahem*
Monica Bellucci, the Montagnard’s wife.

YOWZA.

(Looking her up, I see the second movie was directed by Lilly and Lana Wachowski, not the Wachowski brothers themselves.
Perhaps it was a movie… in transition?)

Issac
Guest
Issac

Democracy in the US is more charade than fact of politics. The problem has more to do with the fact that the US elite is not interested in being a national elite. They are all-in on the notion that they will share in an international elite. As their nations wane with demographic pressure, it will become increasingly clear that they will simply be viceroy to the new geopolitical elite in Asia. Democracy never displaced aristocracy. The Western aristocracy simply became too diaspora laden to maintain its health. Once most of the elite decided to defect and sell, the entire elite… Read more »

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

Some thoughts on “The People’s Money” segment. Expanded extension of credit leads to near term growth, but consumes the currency. Similar to democracy passing out the freebies in the short run, but consuming everything social/religious/political in the long run. The selective extension of credit allows the financial managers to choose winners and losers, financially, just as the late-term democratic managerial class picks the winners and losers in other realms of the culture. The Federal Reserve prefers to hold the reins of the credit system in the unaccountable and secretive hands of a few mega-bankers, rather than in any kind of… Read more »

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

That was excessively good stuff, Dutch. Social credit illustrated by e-credit. It seems that the divorce from risk correlates to a divorce from reality, until Reality comes barging back. But who pays first? Here’s where I’m afraid it will go, because I’m tempted myself: (True story) A biker hit the lottery; a friend told him, “if you get noticed by the wrong people, you’re going to have to spend $100,000 on a lawyer. Aren’t you worried?” The biker replied: “Worry? Why? When I can just give fifty bucks to some meth-head to break in, break his legs, fuck up his… Read more »

Yak-15
Guest
Yak-15

This podcast is one of the most fascinating and critical thinking inspiring pieces you’ve done. The music at the end is still kind of gay though.

Paul Scott
Guest

Great. Right up there with the single issues Rome, and the Trump evaluation.
I did a memory test and found I can recall the single issue series almost at the level of being able to write an essay on each one a week or so later, and that is good retention for me.
Reading my notes even more so. I can attack New Zealanders and Australians with the utter conviction of a plagiarist.

Paul Scott
Guest

Great. This compares well to the single issue “Rome” and Trump an assessment. I find I can remember these single-issue series at a very high level.,
taking notes even better and I can introduce good argument to Australians with reference back to the article
eg see Zman
.http://thezman.com/wordpress/?p=14768