Who And How Many

The immigration debate in America, and maybe the West as a whole, is not much of a debate, at least as far as public policy. Instead, it is something of a meta-debate, in that the facts and important decisions are talked about indirectly. For example, in the US, everyone sort of thinks it is about Mexican immigration, but no one ever explicitly speaks to the facts about Mexican immigration. Details about who is actually coming over the border or gaming the anchor baby system remains a mystery.

As is always the case with big issues in America, immigration is debated on purely moral terms and even there, the morality is not explicit. No one ever bothers to explain why America is a “nation of immigrants” or whether that’s salient. For that matter, no one can seem to wrap their head around why immigration of any sort is morally good. Even immigration hawks go to great lengths to speak well of legal immigrants. Ours is a meta-debate about the morality of undefined policies stripped of facts and details.

Imagine a public debate over building a bridge across a local river. The salient facts would be the cost, where to put it and who benefits from the bridge. Instead, one side talks endlessly about the morality of building bridges. It’s who they are. By extension, those who oppose bridge building in the abstract are immoral in some way. The other side, in contrast, spends its time trying prove they are not opposed to bridge building, but simply have questions about where to put this bridge and how much to spend on it.

Even when someone tries to talk about the economics of immigration, putting aside cultural preferences and demographic reality, the debate soon veers into a weird sort of romanticism. It’s just assumed that jobs are going unfilled due to the lack of labor. There’s never any examination of the claims. Further, it is assumed that temporary labor shortages in one area of a continent sized country are immoral. Rising wages are treated like an insult to the economy, this vaguely understood thing we must worship.

The fact is though, the reality of all public policy is that it is and will be a debate over the facts of the issue. That reality can be wished away for a long time, but eventually the reality comes home. That’s what we are seeing with the stand-off between Trump and the Cult of Brown Ascendancy. We’re slowing creeping up on the fact that immigration is about who and how many. That is, who will we accept and how many of them will we accept. Immigration has always been about who and how many.

Those are not a questions most Americans are equipped to answer. The how many part is the easiest, especially if you start with zero as the default. No one is walking around thinking to themselves, “We really need more Eritreans around here.” If immigration was capped at zero, no one would notice. In fact, if there was a moratorium and the government started to aggressively deport people, even those in the system, most people would not care. In other words, the how many number is a small number.

The tougher question is what sorts of immigrants will we accept, even in limited numbers. In the Mid-Atlantic, where a large Korean community exists, most people would be fine with Korean immigration. Unlike the Chinese, Koreans are not fleeing political oppression or economic uncertainty. Koreans come here for lifestyle reasons, so they assimilate rapidly. They also take pride in being the model minority, despite what what some lefty advocates claim. Koreans came here to be Americans.

At the other end, no one would want any Muslims from the Middle East, as they simply don’t fit a modern Western country. Everywhere Muslim migration has been high, we see terrorist barriers, armed patrols and absurd security measures. In fact, most Americans could be convinced that we make an exception to the First Amendment and ban Islam, maybe even deport all Muslims. It has not worked and it can never work. The Western policy toward that part of the country should first be containment.

Similarly, sub-Saharan Africans are a no-go. America has a long history of trying to integrate Africans into a Europeans country. It does not work. Most people can accept the moral obligation to the descendants of former slaves, even if their ancestors were not slave holders. Bringing in a new population of unassimilable people, with a natural hostility to Europeans makes no sense. Again, no one is walking around wondering how things are going in Chad. That and American blacks don’t like African migrants.

One of the interesting things that happens when you start to think “from where and how many” is the how many becomes an easier question the more you think honestly about the “from where” part. For Americans, the real issue is how many South Americans we will accept. That quickly reduces to a much simpler question. Do we need any of them? For most people, the answer is no, we don’t need more people. Therefore, the only question left is are we morally bound to take anyone in for permanent settlement.

That, of course, is why the open borders crowd prefers to keep this a meta-debate about meta-morality. Once you start thinking about the facts, the default on immigration swings 180 degrees. The default becomes zero and building a massive barrier to entry makes complete sense. The debate is over the exceptions and more important, the conditions for those exceptions. The moral authority becomes the will of the people, rather than a self-selected cult of true believers divorced from daily reality.

162 thoughts on “Who And How Many

  1. “Imagine a public debate over building a bridge across a local river. The salient facts would be the cost, where to put it and who benefits from the bridge. Instead, one side talks endlessly about the morality of building bridges. It’s who they are. By extension, those who oppose bridge building in the abstract are immoral in some way. The other side, in contrast, spends its time trying prove they are not oppose to bridge building, but simply have questions about where to put this bridge and how much to spend on it.”

    The paragraph is contradictory. The “other side” by asking where to put it and how much to spend IS addressing the salient facts of cost, where to put it, and who benefits from it. You say there are salient facts, and that the other side is arguing those salient facts as if there is no opposing view.

    It would be more correct, in light of your column, to state that the opposing view is “why do we need a bridge in the first place”. Sometimes that is obvious – there’s a town on the other side and we would like to exchange goods and services with them but it is 20 miles down river and 20 miles back and we’re tired of running an expensive ferry. Sometimes it is not obvious – the local politician wants a landmark, gets a bunch of townsfolk to jump on board, and then accuses the opposition of being regressive luddites for not seeing the benefits of a shiny new bridge and all the jobs and economic growth it will bring. Later, when the town is overrun by the morons in the town across the river, nobody will realize they should not have built the bridge.

    As far as immigration goes, immigration is a public policy response that tries to get the idea of a “nation state” to conform to 10,000 years of human migration patterns. People move. Sometimes they move inside their nation state. Sometimes they move outside of it. Nation states have decided that sometimes this is a good idea, and sometimes not. In our present situation, the American People have pretty resoundingly decided that some immigration is ok. About 1,000,000 per year in a nation of 330,000,000. But, that mass immigration is not okay, as we are seeing on the border, and that mass immigration from all corners of the world is not okay.

    The entire immigration debate, to the extent there even is one, is between the American Public which has been pretty reasonable and constrained vs. their Rulers who have been unreasonable and unconstrained. Don’t like the law? Just don’t enforce it. Don’t like the law? Vote for it, take the money, then refuse to build it.

    The Ruling Class in this country has lost the immigration debate. That is undeniable. Trump’s election is proof…much like gun control which is dead as an issue in this country other than as a fundraising tool. The issue is that the Ruling Class is in rebellion against its citizens, and whether its citizens will choose to fight back. The extended phony “government shutdown” tells you that the American Public hasn’t given up the fight yet. They’ll stand an extra 45 min in line at the “wall” at airport security in favor of a real wall on the border…because people might not be able to define irony, but they know it when they see it.

    • You misread that paragraph. One side wants to build a bridge, but refuses to discuss facts, instead demanding to focus on the morality of bridge building. The other side, more skeptical of the bridge project, ends up trying to prove they are immoral for asking about the particulars of the bridge.

      There’s nothing contradictory there and it is a useful metaphor for the immigration debate.

      • I’m not seeing it. Are there some people who want to get on the right side of Lefty by saying “No, no, you’re right, it’s immoral to oppose you. We’re not immoral, we just want to know how you plan to spend the money”? Sure, those people are out there. It’s the “I’m not a racist” brigade…desperate to prove they are not racists when, in fact, just about everybody is a racist on some matter or another. I have friends who pull that crap, and I remind them what neighborhood they live in and how far it is from the ‘hood. It’s kind of funny, actually.

        But simply arguing how much the bridge costs, the benefits of it, and why exactly it is needed…lots of people do that without running around trying to prove they are not racists. As I’ve said for years, the word racist really lacks any meaning other than “it’s a sin”. That’s why so many people now just roll their eyes at the accusation. I don’t have to play the “I’m not a racist” game because “racist” simply means I don’t agree with Democrat/Lefty public policy ideas or somebody simply has decided they don’t like me. Big deal.

        I had a guy at work try to pull that crap on me. I made a comment to several people about my daughter having to decide whether to apply to college as a white girl or as an Asian girl. She’s 50/50. In CA, she is better off checking the “white girl” box because Asians are quota’d out, and there are a lot of Asians in CA. In Texas, Asian, mainly because white girls are a dime a dozen. Anyway, the dude flipped his gourd (black guy) accusing me of saying white boys have it harder than anybody else getting into college…which I never said. He screamed and yelled and ranted and raved at me for 10 minutes, threatened to report me to every Witch Hunter under the sun.

        He almost lost his job over it. I simply said that I spoke the truth, and he can take it or leave it. Two apologies later, and I haven’t seen him in 4 months. I took him out at the knees, and never once had to play the I’m not a racist game. I just rejected him out of hand. There are still sane people in the world.

        Anyway, I still think your ‘graph is contradictory. And I think you’re missing a movement in this country that no longer sees the term “racist” as something to be worried about. The word is losing its meaning due to over-use…so why run around trying to prove to Lefty that you’re not immoral when their main accusation of immorality is a word that has no meaning?

  2. I have been following this discussion thread, and a whole herd of “elephants in the living room” have been spoken of here. That is, topics which absolutely, positively all Americans know, and which absolutely, positively all Americans lie to God’s face about “for fear of the Jews.”

    There is, however, the largest “elephant” of them all, which everyone else seems reluctant to directly address. That is the fact that white, Anglo women hate their men and refuse to bear their children. To me, that is the “topic of all topics.” You can be as “race realist” as you want, you can take as many bottles of “red pills” as you can swallow, and you can sing as many silly little songs about how “Tomorrow Belongs To Me” as you please, but if your own women hate your guts and refuse to bear your children, it’s all over.

    And, yes, it really is all over:


    “Tomorrow” belongs to the people who show up for it. And white, Western European peoples (descended from the races north and west of the Hajnal line) are not showing up for it.

    Furthermore, this is not a new problem. As Oswald Spengler pointed out in his 1934 book, The Hour of Decision, this problem dates all the way back to the middle of the 19th century:


    Mr. Z Man, I think this subject is worthy of an entire, one-hour, dedicated podcast. If you have a compelling, practically achievable strategy to address and answer this issue, I would be interested to hear it. Otherwise, you may as well shut down this blog and go away. I am serious.

    If your own women hate you and refuse to bear your children, it really is all over. Nothing else matters. Nothing.

  3. From twitter (Steve Sailer):

    ” is there some point at which we don’t need more immigration”?

    “Yes. They haven’t quite turned AZ, TX, FL, GA, reliably blue yet. Another 12 to 15 million should do the trick.”

    “The Superpower of the World needs immigrants….”

  4. A possible break to reverse our moral definition of the just and the damned, from Heartiste:

    “Mockery Or War, No Other Choice:
    Leftoids are an emotive species, and react to challenges to their authority on a continuum from hysteria to genocidal bloodlust.”

    Libs love the catfight in comfort.
    Perhaps this is how we turn the national crowd?

  5. When too many come here from there, soon here becomes there. The problem is no one from here wants to live there, except those from there.
    Even Heaven has a border and an angel at the gate.

  6. I think a 25 year freeze on immigration would be a good thing. That would allow the current generation of new immigrants to assimilate as much as they are willing/able to do.

    • The many Rotherhams in Britain were done by legal immigrants. Ones who’ve had their 25 years to “assimilate”.

      • I don’t think Muslims should be allowed to immigrate to the US at all. We’re stuck with the legal Muslim immigrants we have but we can close the door to any more. Islam and Sharia is just not compatible with western democracy.

    • After 50 million or so repatriations with a permanent limit of a few thousand and those prioritizing White/Right sure.

    • Assimilation is as much of a thoughtless common myth as ‘nation of immigrants.’ The vast majority of immigrants, even if they wear jeans, eat pizza, and learn some variety of English, cannot and do not change their DNA or inherited native culture. Instead they gradually change their host and amalgamate with it or conquer it or annihilate it. That’s what the Ellis Island immigrants and their descendants did. Who do you think rewrote American history? Who voted for FDR FOUR times in a row?

      Assimilation is a canard, and – regarding other races – another, slower, gentler version of White genocide.

  7. Z – I don’t get why the democrats are into all this. They didn’t need all these immigrants to build a majority. Look at how many state legislative, congressional, gubernatorial and other downballot positions the dems held in the 70s. It was a lot more than it is now.

    • krusty, the Dems want people they can boss around, not people they need to convince. They are all about the stick, not the carrot.

    • They have no intention of looking a gift horse in the mouth. Also, the globalists are using the many willing useful idiots to remove the source of the only potential for *effective* resistance to their brave new globalized world–white people. That’s why this phenomenon is worldwide. Partially it has to do with social mood, which is going to change before too much longer, and partially it has to do with the globalists having seized the opportunity to make hay while the sun shines. There will be bloodshed, and it will be terrible, but the tide is turning. Look around the world at the electoral gains–electoral gains!–by populists everywhere. And the spread of the Yellow Vest uprising.

    • That’s a very good observation.

      Nitzakhon, above: “Throughout history, one side has invited in foreigners to help them deal with their opposition.”

      In Persia and Byzantium, the tax farmers brought in cheap labor: Arab vassal mercenaries. The civilized world got the Islamic Conquest and the Nestorian revolt (predecessor to Calvin’s Protestant Wars.)

      • Sorry, I meant to include the selfish kapitalist (slave)traders of the time as well- can’t let our own off the hook.

    • Back then the Democrats were the party of working people . These days they are the party of nuts with the leadership being as much corporate property as any chamber of commerce Republican

      They have to cheat

      • it seems like if democrats ran Joe Manchin types when/where necessary – they would win everything. Maybe the toothpaste can’t be put back in the tube – but if you at least listen to the WWC – all roadblocks will go away.

  8. Plenty of times in the country’s history, Americans have been strongly and even bitterly divided. Once it led to attempted secession and war. But never in the past was public opinion so utterly irrelevant to political policy.

    Suppose a Gallup poll were conducted tomorrow and revealed that every single respondent in the U.S.A. wanted an immediate end to all immigration and a permanent barrier at the southern border. (Obviously that is unrealistic, but we’re doing a thought experiment.) What would change?

    Very likely, nothing.

    Put that in your cup and stir it. The globo-crony-capitalist Establishment scarcely even pretends anymore to be moved by the will of the people. To the elite, ordinary folks are a nuisance to be ignored or at most tossed a few scraps as a bribe.

    Immigration restrictionists have a double task: not only making the case for repelling and reversing the invasion, but somehow letting the powerful feel the sharp edge of public opinion. The second will be harder than the first.

    It’s going to take something like an American version of the Gilets Jaunes. The French have two advantages over us. Their leaders are even more corrupt and contemptuous than ours (hence stir a greater anger), and the French still have a cultural memory of what it means to be occupied by a hostile force. Do we have the spirit in us?

    • The British are going through the same thing. How long ago did the citizens vote for Brexit? And their still not out of the EU. Their leadership is trying every trick in the book to nullify their vote. With US immigration, the problem is even worse. In a democracy, we are supposed to replace our leaders if they don’t reflect our will. Instead, our leaders are trying to replace us.

      • Replace our leaders with whom? They are ALL like that. And no, it can’t be reformed. And no, sensible and decent people are not going to run for office because there’s no point in it. Such people could never get elected anyway. Never. That’s how the system is now. ZMan has said it before: There are no *political* solutions to the problems wrought by popular democracy. And that’s just the way things are.

        • This boomer/TradCon default position (voting/send emails/put up candidates/reform the system) is what I see daily at purportedly alternative websites. There is just no fixing a system with foundations eaten away by SJWs and (((Americans))) for decades. There is no voting our way out of this. I’m hardly under any illusions that the alternative (gradual Brazilification and/or CWII) will be any great adventure or that many of us would emerge unscathed, but it’s barreling towards us regardless while people continue to duck their heads and prattle on about muh rule of law.

          I prefer to deal with reality, even if that reality means I see no future for my two White sons. And no, I’m not advocating that others do what I’m loathe to do myself. For one, I’m a 60 year old woman and I lack the skills or character to lead anything. For another, I support what I can with whatever I can (small financial donations, supportive comments, glaring at mystery meat kids in the store until they cry, etc.).

      • “In a democracy, we are supposed to replace our leaders if they don’t reflect our will. Instead, our leaders are trying to replace us.”

        Great gods above, I love you people.

      • “We want out. We want to leave. We’re tired of those guys telling us what to do.”

        “OK, you guys are racists but we’ll go ask them if we can leave.”

        “Why are you even asking? They’ll just say no.”

        “Because we can’t just LEAVE. We have to negotiate an exit. You racists don’t understand how this works.”

        (Two years later)

        “Bad news. They won’t let us out. I guess we are stuck. Now that we know we can’t get out, let’s have another election to you racists can change your minds.”

    • Gravity Denier, your second and third paragraphs are very important for everyone to understand. The “system” is a fig leaf, nothing more.

    • It is also a *fact* that *many* ordinary French people are *hungry.* That is never reported as one of the main sources of the fury gripping France right now. That’s one reason that there has not (yet) been a general strike in France.

      But to your comment: Think Spain in the 1930s. That’s almost certainly our future.

      Also, this might interest you:


    • The spirit is there but it means embracing madness and war on an unfathomable scale. Its war to the knife, knife to the hilt until the other side is dead or utterly suppressed.

      It also means throwing away our liberal ideas for many decades and ruling by brutal force if needed.

      We aren’t there yet since our side doesn’t do dial a violence (riots today, explosions tomorrow, war after that) but only all out war, we are trying to avoid it

      Also we don’t have an ideology to fight for

      The Dissident Right is still reeling from the fact that too few take Christianity seriously enough to use it for cheap social capital and to make that moral and religious people.

      Without that capital, modernity becomes very costly and while you can impose a Right Wing society on people via divorce reform and various other laws, this does not make people moral nor it any less expensive

      Our culture makes the economic reforms needed, family first last, always hard to make happen too.

      We can’t have modernity and a Right Wing society , as NrX often says Gnon and Cthulhu always swim Left and this means we have to keep pushing it Right

      No running, no cucking, just work

      If we can accept the responsibility , we’ll have reason to fight but thus far we want our cake and to eat it too. This can’t happen.

      Rule or be ruled and we have chosen the later

  9. An exasperatingly large number of Americans –not just leftists– have been acculturated (by who?) into thinking America is not really a nation, but rather a gigantic cookie jar full of self-replenishing magical cookies. And that it’s their moral duty to pass the cookie jar around the entire planet so that every set of brown fingers on earth can have a chance to grub for a magic cookie. They think it’s immoral to preserve their heritage and people, and just plain mean to not give away all the cookies to anyone who wants them — which is /everyone/. The math here, of course, does not add up.

    America and Europe are the most prosperous and pleasant places on Earth not by magic, but because they’re full of white people. (China is getting prosperous, but it’ll never be pleasant). And, for what should be perfectly obvious biological and socio-political reasons, white people can only breed and reproduce successfully in a supermajority-white breeding territory. Diversity means no more white people, as both a logical and a biological process. No more White people means North America rapidly turns into a gigantic continent-sized latrine, with all the turd people frantically paddling their canoes across the Pacific, in a desperate attempt to make it to New Zealand, and move in next door to the last five remaining White families on earth. Access to White people has apparently become not just a new human right, but a primal existential imperative.

    This process will not be undone by deportation or repatriation. These people have their meat-hooks sunk in deep, and they ain’t never gonna leave quietly.

    Partition and separation is the only answer. There’s a big enough chunk of both CONUS and Canada that can be cordoned off as a territory for say 100 million White European Christian (and ONLY Christian!) people to live in peace and quiet by themselves. After all, they’re incurable, inherently racist, remember? Everybody else SHOULD leave them to themselves.

    To achieve this peacefully is going to take a lot of thought, effort, and time, so it’s already past time to start discussing it practically and intelligently NOW.

    • The women have taken over the West, and they are nurturers, not defenders and providers. Provision is now the “magic cookie” and it is time to pass them all around, it seems.

      Along those lines, the task now, in the West, is to turn the men into soy-boys, nurturers. In the meantime, some wymyn want to be “fierce”. So choosing pronouns, cutting off body parts, and taking hormones is the thing. Most of us here are older, but this is a real and widespread thing among the younger. They see it as choosing from a menu. They are not planning for the future or laying up any provisions, physical, mental, or spiritual. These are the people for whom we are trying to save Western Civilization. Not all of them, but a good number of them. They are working from the set of choices laid down by the powers that be, and they are good little followers (“everyone gets to be unique”).

      • Wow, Dutch, just wow. Fantastic.

        Our poor, sweet dears, the sacred foundation of all that is holy.
        After millions of years, finally a race of men come along to give them more freedom than they’ve ever known– and they just don’t know what to do with it.

        “But there will always be guys around who’ll move my piano, right?”

    • Okay, I’ll try to start discussing it practically and intelligently.

      … cordoned off as a territory for say 100 million White European Christian (and ONLY Christian!) people to live in peace and quiet by themselves.

      You’ve just told me I have no place in your Whiteopia, since although I am white and Christian-friendly (and my wife is Christian enough to have gotten an advanced seminary degree) I do not label myself as such. Nor am I Jewish.

      So why should I give a toss about helping to create your white homeland on the steppes?

      And I assume you don’t figure on settling some frozen wasteland above the Arctic Circle, so you are planning to do your Brigham Young thing where there are already inhabitants, some of whom will not be white or Christian enough. A North American turf analogous to Palestine, to be fought over for generation after generation?

      Look, I agree with you that some kind of partition and separation is very likely the best deal we are going to get, and you’re right we should be talking about how to get there. But please don’t start the bidding by barring me and mine from your promised land for not meeting your theological criterion.

  10. One unspoken component of immigration is the Mormon Question.

    Virtue-signaling and conversion activities aside, Mormon wealth and political power is directly threatened by increased attention to the immigration issue. Hence the reflexive opposition to commonsense no-brainers such as E-Verify. This is particularly true in areas such as eastern Washington and the Snake River valley in Idaho.

    Like certain other Questions, when you turn over this particular rock, all sorts of little nasties scurry about in the sunlight.

    • The Mormons are converting a ton of Latin American types (all those years of missions are paying off). Follow the money, which follows the conversions.

  11. The amazing thing about immigration from the third world is it was proven to be a disaster years before it was implemented on a mass scale post -1965. Didn’t anyone notice that American blacks didn’t exactly excel at First World living?

    • Black culture of the segregation era was more subdued than it is today, the black elite had to police their community lest whitey do it for them. Marriages were much more common, and divorce and illegitimacy less common. Blacks were the beneficiary of a restricted labor market during periods of high demand during the World Wars. Liberal naivete presumed that the income gap would keep closing. Deindustrialization, drugs, degeneracy.

      • When the limitations (segregation) on Blacks were lifted, the best and brightest got out of their Ghettos, leaving the worse behind and their communities collapsed. Our import of the less than best and brightest is producing such in any number of communities today (if you think about it).

  12. Here, as in Europe, immigration is about kicking the can down the road. Politicians borrow money to bribe voters, run up vast debts, and don’t want to be held accountable when the butcher’s bill comes due. In theory, illegal immigrants will work their ass off and delay the onset of the inevitable financial collapse that will accompany the boomer retirement era (1.7 earners for every retiree). The modus operandi for a political career is go to DC, get rich selling influence, and then get out of Dodge before the SHTF. Illegal immigration is not about either nationalism or morality, it’s about simple greed.

    • Quite true, except that when TSHTF, it will be worldwide. We are going to find ourselves in a situation with no precedent whatsoever, to wit, the entire world will have a monetary crisis at the same time. Not, as in earlier monetary crises, where one part or several parts of the world have a monetary crisis while the rest of the world does not. This time–for the first time *ever*–it will be the whole world at once. Everything will change. And that’s not even to mention the current Grand Solar Minimum and the global cooling that is already underway.

      • Mysteerious, I see what you are getting at and it is a good way to bet, but trashing the Dollar seems like a bad move when most of it is held by the elites. I sense more of a deflationary type of squeeze where everything slows down and there is nothing for anybody, unless you have a bunch socked away. The African model, though their local elites bail on their own currencies, which inflate to thin air, and instead cash out into the Dollar. If the Dollar is going into the hopper, what will the elites cash into to dodge the bullet? Seriously, I wrestle with this all the time.

  13. You live in a bubble.

    Most people want open borders because it dilutes the white male patriarchy (the great evil of our time) and leads to a better society.

    Look at the reaction to Steve King. Nobody wants white racists running things.

    • If the white male patriarchy (which built the most successful country in history) is the problem, why aren’t American women and minorities migrating to Mexico, rather than doing everything possible to get closer to the white men.

      • Black and Brown imports won’t cut the mustered wrt maintaining and building a highly technological civilization. It is only a matter of time until the critical fraction is breached and the number of highly skilled individuals falls below the level of numbers needed. Brazil, here we come.

    • T.D. those guys represent the Chamber of Commerce and the Left not the actual people. NPC’s all of them.

      Anyway people stupid enough to start a multi-ethnic empire quickly become terrified of the unrest that the natural and healthy tribalism ensures

      If you rise that tiger, its damned hard to get off.

      Do to domestication under feudalism and recent prosperity Northern and Western Whites tend to be less tribal than some other groups but this is changing fast/

      Heck the Chamber of Commerce Republicans are demonstrating tribal loyalty to the Capitalist Left they serve and class loyalty against the lower classes who aren’t supposed to have in group loyalty as well

      This tribing up is not however something they can stop only slow a tiny bit. Conflict is coming

      All that said if no one wants White Supremacy than why not let the I don’t know 50% of Whites or so that seem to go for it have their own nation?

      The Left may think they are moral betters but its getting expensive to suppress the White Right

      Let them go and may best ideology win.

  14. Actually, the South Asian, i.e. Filipino and Indian immigration is rapidly starting to become nearly as salient as the Latin American question, it seems to me. The “powers that be” saw how effective Hispanic immigration was in destroying the American blue collar worker, and thought that El Cheapo medical, accounting, IT, engineering, dental, etc. degrees from New Delhi’s College Degrees R Us could do the same to American white collar workers.

  15. If even the talk is false then a true solution is out of reach, at least through normal channels…


    No bitterness: our ancestors did it.
    They were only ignorant and hopeful, they wanted freedom but wealth too.
    Their children will learn to hope for a Caesar.
    Or rather–for we are not aquiline Romans but soft mixed colonists–
    Some kindly Sicilian tyrant who’ll keep
    Poverty and Carthage off until the Romans arrive,
    We are easy to manage, a gregarious people,
    Full of sentiment, clever at mechanics, and we love our luxuries.

    by Robinson Jeffers

  16. Well, I think we can answer some basic questions:

    According to the US Census Bureau, there are 59 million people living the US who are Hispanic, and 37 million of them are Mexican. That means that 22% of Mexicans (not including those living in other foreign countries) live in the US. I’d say we have enough Mexicans to satisfy our “need for diversity.”
    In addition, 62% of Puerto Ricans (we can’t do anything to stem this tide), 27% of Salvadorans, 17% of Cubans, 16% of Dominicans, 9% of Hondurans and 8% of Guatemalans live in the US. And so on. I’d say we have enough of all of these various types of “diversity” and “vibrancy.”
    Other than Columbia (1.2 million) no South American country has graced the US with more than 700k immigrants. That said, I’d say that our immigration quota from the South is full. Halt all immigration from the Caribbean and Central and South America.
    Oh, and also halt all immigration from the 57 member states of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation.
    And from everywhere else.

  17. I’ve found most normies think our immigration policy has always been this way. After all, “we’re a nation of immigrants.” They don’t know about the 1965 Hart-Celler Act, or the 1921 and ’24 Acts, or the Chinese Exclusion Act, and certainly not the Naturalization Act of 1790. They think the immigration we have is natural and an integral part of America and it’s “who we are”, as long as it’s legal.

    “Who and how many” needs to be how immigration is discussed. For the “who,” Trump opened that door with his talk of a Muslim ban. (unfortunately he said, “temporary.”) For the “how many,” Tucker Carlson has been great at asking that question.

    “How many” is an easier sell than “who,” because most people have a hard time discriminating based on race and ethnicity, thinking “that’s not who we are.” That taboo needs to be broken real soon, or we’re all going to be asking, “who are we?”

  18. Sure, he’s besieged, but why doesn’t Trump step-up and unabashedly defend representative King while denouncing the likes of Charles “the cuck” Grassley, Mitt “the marsh-mellow” Romney, and Kevin “the kike kissing” McCarthy?

    • Because he is a civic nationalist and has Jewish family. He doesn’t hate White people at all but he feels uncomfortable with being pro White too.

      He is about as good as elections will get and partially on our side but President Trump is not one of us

      • Trump is trying to navigate treacherous ground, but he is fundamentally not a “burn the house down” kind of guy. He does like setting small fires here and there, in the right places at the right moments.

  19. Unfortunately, the pyramid schemes of social security and medicare, along with a white birthrate below replacement, has created the need for more young people to prop it all up. If you don’t procreate the next generation, you have to import them or do the hard work of reforming entitlements. Whether the welfare given to immigrants overtakes it all and bankrupts the system is an open question. But it’s a fair bet that once whites are the minority, cuts to their promised entitlements will be inevitable. There are several possible ways this all collapses, but until then it’s not about bringing in workers for jobs Americans won’t do. It’s about creating the young people that Americans won’t.

    • Do you really believe that we need to import black and brown hordes in order to pay for social security, social security disability, Medicaid, Medicare, and other welfare programs?

      Financing entitlements is just a matter of digits.

      • Not at all. I’m saying we need whites to procreate more. But if they don’t, the liberal idiots that created the system will try to prop it up with young brown people. I am not saying this will work or that it is good policy. I believe this will further expand the bloated state until it collapses. I’m just saying it’s one of the rationalizations the elite are using to justify the invasion. And financing entitlements might be a matter of digits, but do you think any of our current politicians are capable of that?

          • I like this.

            Its also possible that the developed world has reached its social carrying capacity. 60 million people in the UK which historically supported well under 10 million is nuts. Germany has over 80 million crammed into a nation the size of New Mexico which has a population of two million, granted its desert but still

            Urban societies always lose population either to disease or to conditions as logic dictates smaller families.

            As we are now an urban society and our suburban escape route no longer works, it makes sense for some population decline

            I do think roughly 30% of it is social, caused by marriage laws mostly and changing those would slow the decline a bit

            It won’t however reverse it not should it. The Malthusian Green are correct humanity is way past its healthy carrying capacity

            Our goal is to keep foreigners out, Leftist Cuckoos away from our nests and let nature takes its course.

            In time we’ll reach a jobs/comfort/tech equilibrium and better for it.

        • Whites can’t and won’t outbreed the Africans, mestizos, and Allah the others. Think again.

        • I think the procreation issue would be self correcting if left to our own devices.

          If we allowed the population to fall naturally we would expect to see rising wages along with rising productivity over the long term.

          The rising wages would make two incomes less necessary. I realize this is an oversimplification but it is pretty hard to have a herd of children when you both have to work.

          • The problem is that rising wages puts us at a severe competitive disadvantage with the rest of the world.

            The problem is that we have a “logistical tail” that is FAR too large.

            It’s why I keep saying that – if you look at the ENTIRETY of the tax load – and where that goes , then you look at what the average taxpayer’s tax load is (it’s been estimated by some of the taxpayer advocacy organizations at 65%) – the the solution starts to become apparent.

            And that solution is to RUTHLESSLY cut out all the waste. The means a whole bunch of people lose their EBT cards – and probably die in the streets. That means dozens of government agencies go out of business. That means no more immigrant families on the dole. It means no more empire.

            You get rid of all that burden that is loaded onto the backs of the middle class American taxpayer – and you could have them be competitive wage wise with the rest of the world – AND able to support themselves.

            It’s the burden of the welfare state that is dragging down the entire enterprise. The fact that the elite are bringing in the brown masses is an effort to sustain the entire rotten edifice.

            And there might be a chicken and egg problem here – which came first: the religious deification of the brown faces – or the realization that their financial empire rests on a ponzi that needs more bodies to throw into the grinder.

            I constantly smell the stench of lefties in the comment section here. The fact that so many seem to be completely unwilling to give up the welfare state – points me to where the stench comes from.

          • A pro tip, the US is a resource rich continent and does not need to trade with anyone. At one point our economy was 93% domestic and it can easily go back there with good stewardship and without greatly impoverishing its people .

            Money cucks who put corporate profits above the health of society are as bad if not worse than the Cultural Marxists

            Oh its OK if no one will have children because they don’t have stable work, Proctor and Gamble made record profits this year

            Fuck that.

            The wages must fall crowd is also responsible for mass immigration , the decline of the family and the permanent low fertility. They own it maybe more than the Left

            Now sure the Cultural Marxists are complete loons who end up doing evil because its like having the Joker as a politician but the Chamber of Commerce Right is pure evil incarnate

            And as for the burden of the welfare state helping wages , bullshit, its less than 15% of the GDP in Federal revenue and its all rapidly redistributed .

            If somehow we could get the Federal tax rate to zero we’d have a 20% increase in income that would all go to the top . If anything the overall 38% GDP we pay in taxes from every level is propping up the economy, not holding it back

            Social Security is more efficient dollar for dollar than nearly any private charity and all of it is spent on living and consumer goods

            Same with WIC, EBT and all that Welfare is recoupable.

            A caveat, only US citizens on US soil should be getting it which would save money and of course there are plenty of things that can be cut like the NEA for example.

            However no amount of tax cuts will improve wages otherwise the Trump tax cuts would mean everyone is making more money. Wages will never go up again ever if US business has any choice

            Trade control can help but it has to be near autarky like it was in the 20’s to work.

            Even so if we did that as automation increases wages will go down and taxes will go up.

            Once you put in self driving trucks and kiosks and more on-lijne ordering. You’ve just guaranteed President Ocasio Cortez or if you are very lucky a Commie who doesn’t hate Whites

        • The state is not going to collapse, okay? There *will*, however, be a currency crisis–worldwide–which will collapse the currency (although the US dollar will be the last to go, since it’s the best house in a bad neighborhood). The state will survive, though, at least outwardly (as a hollow shell). But there will be *other* states that will arise within what used to be the (current) state’s territory, and *that* will be a problem. Think Spain in the 1930s.

        • Assuming removal of most Non whites we’d have 250 million or so White people

          I’m mean really, how much is enough? 300 million, 5000, a billion , a billion five?

          Too many people makes for a lousy society.

          They key is not building anything predicated on constant growth and consumption whether its a business model, social security or the whole economy .

          People only want and need so much and when the wants are met which is easy to do , we need to find deal with the efficiency

          Now if we really want more people its going tor require patriarchy and massive economic reform . This will have to be imposed by force as the later will take power from people who don’t want to give it up

        • DLS, this is not about propping up the system. It is actually twofold. One is cheap labor with no workplace rights (as per the C of C contingent) and the other is replacing us with a more pliable and dependable constituency (as per the Progs). The “propping up the system” thing is a smokescreen.

        • There is a mechanism within humans that adjusts male vs female birth ratio to keep them roughly equal. It also adjusts for resources – humans aren’t the only ones that do this , animals have built in mechanisms to bring down birth rates in times of scarce resources.

          I would hypothesize that – white people, having evolved in a harsher environment than other races with brown skin – have a birth rate mechanism that is more refined , in that it is more ‘sensitive’ to the influences of environment and population than other races.

          The Japanese are also having low birth rates – and they have lived in a similar environment for a LONG time.

          After WW1 wiped out almost an entire generation of males – the birth ratio adjusted to spit out enough males to start the war up one generation later.

      • Financing entitlements is first and foremost understanding who uses them and how much they contribute toward their maintenance (pay into the system). I’d say, 90% of the current immigrant crowd use more tax dollars than they will ever contribute and their children into the second and even third generations show no better promise in this regard. That is the inevitable result of importing low level 3rd world intellects ito a first world highly advanced technical society. Sooner or later something has to give.

    • Big Foot, honest government and jobs Americans won’t do are three things that don’t exist, but people talk about them anyway. The whole “jobs Americans won’t do” meme is just another way to decorate the moral argument. No one ever asks, “why will Americans not do these jobs?” It’s just assumed that those jobs are bad or undignified. The reason American teens don’t cut grass anymore is because the people in charge have decided that it’s not who we are, so we bring in 80-IQ Hondurans to do it.

      A pretty good rule of this age is that all political arguments are moral arguments about separating the just from the damned.

      • It’s not that Americans won’t do them, it’s that they won’t do them for the price the whole corporate/chamber of commerce cabal is willing to pay. So you end up with all Democrats and 50% of Republican politicos destroying the country while getting rich in their gated communities, rather than engaging in actual capitalism and paying the market price for labor.

        • I saw some tech CEO complaining about how the cuts in H1-B visa holders was hurting his company. Awww. His six-figure bonus might become a five-figure bonus.

          I bleed for him. I won’t say from where.

        • Yep, then we get the argument along the line of, “So you want to pay $5 for a head of lettuce?” Of course not, but the reality is that we are already paying $5 per head of lettuce when the total societal cost of the cheap farm labor is taken into account.

          • And God forbid that anybody should learn to grow at least *some* of their own vegetables!

        • DLS, the meat packing industry used to be white and blue collar. Pay wasn’t great, not a lot of benefits, but a guy who knew how to skin and dress a deer had the skill set to take on some work. Now that work is done by imported labor who work for the bare minimum. It is also a highly dangerous sort of work, and the imported folks are much less likely to report an injury or complain about working conditions. All brought to you by the Chamber of Commerce crowd.

        • It’s like the old questions of:
          Why isn’t there…? Money, that’s why
          Who doesn’t anyone do….. Money
          How come we don’t have? Money

      • Right. Or the way I put it is, “Jobs Americans won’t do *at that rate of pay.* That’s what we’re talking about, I think. There is no end of Americans who would do these jobs–at an American pay rate.

    • “once whites are the minority, cuts to their promised entitlements will be inevitable.”

      As sure as gravity.
      That’s DLS’s point.

  20. Americans (White, Christian, Nationalist) who have already woken up know that they answer to who is “nobody” and the answer to how many is “start massive deportations now”. But no one in power gives a shit what Americans think. Steve King is off his committee assignments because is says “It’s OK to be white”.

    Agree with whoever said that “Americans” basically have no political representation in their own country. Trump is as wrong as often he is right.

  21. Thee left as usual conflates illegal and legal immigration so they can accuse everybody against illegals and The Wall of being racists. Most people hate being called a racist. Not me. I know as soon as that word is thrown about I hit a nerve and they’d rather curse, scream and cast epithets than discuss, debate or compromise. IOW, I won.

    To even the casual observer today’s immigration policy does not exist. Today’s illegal alien defense and deportation plan also does not exist. And since the only immigrants currently coming in any amount noticeable are Mohammedans, Africans, Asians and Hispanics. You notice the decidedly non white pattern?

    Immigration was used in America to fill in needed workers or to bring in educated, or rich, or people with something of value to bring to the country. Now they bring in colored to suck at the teat of the taxpayer and ultimately become the majority.

    The election of Moslems (who shouldn’t even be allowed in this country) to Congress is a sign we are a doomed country unless we stop allowing every ignorant self hating white clown in America to bring in white hating non assimilating cultures and races.

    They are using the very Constitution made by white men to destroy white en. And white women are the Dr. Kevorkians in this assisted suicide pact.

  22. I think the most difficult idea to wrestle is the comparison made by both sides out of immigrants of today, who come from Mexico/Central/South America, and the immigrants that came during the period of big waves after the Civil War, who were exclusively European.

    By definition, our ancestors were immigrants during that period of time, but in practicality they were really settlers because America had almost no utilities or public resources to leech off of, they helped build everything that we see in our big cities like NYC and Chicago, the roads, the bridges, skyscrapers, and basically everything out west. To say the new immigrants, who are real immigrants by definition and practically, are in any way like the old is a gross comparison that is insulting, but for some reason good whites just don’t want to even tackle it like that.

    The old ones were investors who sacrificed time and saved in order to build something better, like a family or group of people that help start and build up a neighborhood. They start the initial foundation of houses, put in a pool and playground, keep the sidewalks shoveled, pave the drive ways, keep lawns trim and tidy, all the things to keep a neighborhood from depreciating in value. The new ones are buyers, the ones that move in after the house is sold, who do nothing besides reside and become a pest to others, making loud noise and de-beautifying the community with a horde of misbehaved kids.

    No wonder the rich managerial class love gated communities!

    • You seem to be touching upon the concept of the Welfare State. Strictly enforce who can collect (in whatever form that takes) and 80% of today’s problems go away (with 80% of the immigrants, legal and illegal). 😉

      • The welfare state should be COMPLETELY done away with. You want a handout? Go to church or go back to your own family.

        The welfare state is a feature of socialism/communism – not capitalism.

  23. There are three classes of immigration: Third-to-Third, Third-to-First and the largely unknown First-to-Third. The first class attracts little attention, Westerners don’t care if there is movement of Congolese to Nigeria. Locals do care. The second attracts opposition in the First World, but is supported by transnational elites in the First and Third World. The third is unheard of, aside from a few “expats” that don’t typically form sustaining communities. It would be a good way of exporting some troublesome over-credentialed lefties.

    • The waning of Christianity took with it the chance to send the zealous off to the fringe as a missionaries. The Saudis used to send their zealots to Afghanistan to fight the infidel for the same reason.

      • Now the perverted forms of Christianity allow people to stay at home in comfort and affluence and welcome in the illegals against their own country’s laws, implicitly aiding in their fraud, and pretend they are participating in the Great Commission.

        • One of the major swindles is various church/other groups doing “service trips” in a Third World country. In places with mass unemployment, sending cash to pay locals would go much farther than wasting several K on airfare and lodging. But gotta virtue signal.

          • Some of them mix vacation plans in with their “mission”. They take the family along at church expense.

          • LOL.
            I’ve always thought it was comical that church groups and the Peace Corp and other leftist type virtue signallers would take treks to Africa to dig wells for the locals.


            The Africans haven’t figured out how to dig a well after a few millenia? So they need a bunch of white chicks to fly over there and dig the wells for them?

            To take a cue from Sam Kinison: why don’t we just send them shovels and a set of instructions on how the use the shovel?

          • Because shovels have too many moving parts for them to operate effectively or even safely. No, let’s send them spades.

          • The soft racism of low expectations strikes again.

            Africans won’t build a modern developed society but they can handle any of the basic things and develop on their own

            Wakanda? no. Greater Zimbabwe. Yes .

        • My wife has family in Arizona who are literally dumb leftists. They can’t explain why they feel the way they do, they just dumbly repeat talking points from Colbert and Good Morning America. Like, against their better wishes, they KNOW they are dumb, but they keep doing what they are doing because they feel obligated to be “nice”.

          They attend a Presbyterian church with a gay minister. One thing members of this church do for “service” is wander off in the desert and leave jugs of water for the illegals passing through. The first time I heard about this I expressed some surprise and my wife’s aunt said, “Yeah, I know they shouldn’t be there in the first place, but it wouldn’t be very Christian to let them die in the desert.”

          “Have you thought about that maybe if no one left them water they might be less likely to try and walk across the desert?”

          “I’m just trying to be like Jesus. I’m not worried about politics.”

      • Christian missionaries I know seem barely cognizant of the kinds of discussions we are having here. And if you bring up the matter, their eyes glaze over and they smile back at you. They’re zombies.

        • Last weekend, I became informed on a sort of Underground Railroad here in Southern California, running hundreds of Central Americans through “refugee centers” per week, and putting them on buses to various destinations north and east. This is tens of thousands per year. So the “refugee centers” house hundreds of people a night in “undisclosed locations” (hotels? Churches? Gyms?), and need to move every week or two due to “widespread death threats”. I assume the death threats stem from these people overrunning other people’s communities with this stuff.

          Once again, people virtue signal at the expense of others, and with no personal sacrifice of their own. The church members “oooh” and “aaah” all of this, while throwing money at it, so they can be peripherally involved in something edgy and dangerous, all from the comfort of their easy chairs, while others deal with the damage.

          This is operated by late middle aged and older upper middle class white women. I believe that this is some sort of perverted maternal instinct at work, as these women do not have children or grandchildren close by, or at all, and pour their nurturing instinct into this weird displaced version of things. Yet another side effect of the breakdown of the white family.

          • Seems like relatively easy problem to solve.

            Track down the “undisclosed locations” – and burn them down.

            That’s the tactic the Swedes have resorted to when the government started dumping “refugees” into their towns.

            The govt. would dump a bunch of Africans into a local house – and mysteriously the house would burn down a few days later.

            NO threats should even be issued.

            Once a sufficient number of churches burn – everybody will see the message clearly.

          • Alzaebo, I think it might be larger than we suspect. And here is the interesting thing. Unlike most church work, where the hands are always out for donations to the food bank or for the orphaned children, this thing was not about asking for donations (though they got some). This was more a “hush, hush, don’t tell anyone but this is what we are up to” sort of thing. All buttoned up and paid for. By somebody.

        • I read a very interesting article somewhere on AmRen about missionaries in Africa. Some of the old guard that went over from roughly 1965 – 1985 are still there, and according to the author many of them are alcoholics. They went over full of zealous ideals, then found out the African villagers were largely cultural followers stuck in violence and squalor, generation after generation. It literally breaks their minds. They went there because their Christian conversion was transformative and they expect everyone else to have the same experience. But then the mission of explaining the Triune God meets the reality of people with 80 – 85 IQ.

    • If the US had an interregnum they could do this, strip troublesome parties of their citizenship and send them to live in the third world.

      They’d have to pay off the nations accepting them but could use the funds we levy for sedition if they feel sadistic or just use the general fund

      And note this means no developed world especially Europe for them

      Its probably better to not wound an enemy though and just deal them out.

      Doing so would also require desiring and using power and our sob sister “right” and the liberty cucks would rather suicide than rule.

  24. It was Jack Straw, former Home Secretary in the UK, who was said to have favored mass immigration as a way of “rubbing the Right’s nose in diversity”. So sadistic-sexual humiliation of your enemies is an unspoken premise of the left’s position.

    In the same vein, the Right is held collectively responsible for its foreign policy failures. Such that Central American wars that ended nearly three decades ago are held as a justification for “asylum”. Here we have some responsibility, if we don’t stop the war machine we will get more invaders invited. If anything, the Pentagon budget should be slashed and the funds used to pay them to go back.

    • Throughout history, one side has invited in foreigners to help them deal with their opposition. History is replete with the failure of that tactic.

      You’d think those uber-educated elites would study history…

    • That’s similar to an argument I’ve made with right wingers for going on 20 years now.

      Whenever we get involved overseas , and especially when we go to war in one country or another……. you can GUARANTEE that is going to open up the floodgates of immigration from that region. It’s happened over and over and over again.

      Unfortunately – it appears that pointing out facts to right wing dimwits does nothing to change their Neocon influenced “opinions” , or their lust for sending US troops overseas, nor their bitching about the immigration that follows.

      Hey dummies – if you keep putting your hands on the hot stove it’s going to keep hurting. How many times do we need to do this before you learn?

      • A different view to consider: The Neocons are NOT right-wing conservatives. The Neocons are Trotskyites, that is, progressive communist liberals who insinuated themselves into the Republican Party to, ironically, “fight communism.” All wars since and including World War One have been leftist wars to root out and destroy “monarchy” in all its myriad manifestations.

    • DeBeers, perhaps—or perhaps we use the military to take over these countries and colonize them as the British did 100 years ago. Replacing the elites in these countries might send a powerful message for reform to the other surrounding crap holes to get their act together and not dump their “surplus” population onto our shores. And no, I don’t necessarily see this as nation building and spreading democracy.

  25. I think it’s more complicated. Greg Hood has noted that the debate over immigration is really a coded debate over the racial composition of the United States. Immigration advocates are not pushing for greater immigration from Europe. Immigration opponents sense what Mestizo and Amerindian migration, both legal and illegal, is doing to the racial makeup of the United States (i.e., the dispossession of white Americans), but they cannot publicly say this, for fear of being labeled racist. Insofar as even Korean immigration is concerned, I see no more reason to import an overclass than an underclass.

    • No European nation-state has a TFR above replacement. The highest fertility rate among Indo-Europeans is in Chechnya.

      South Korea has a basement-level TFR, we are importing people that are shirking conscription.

      • The highest White Fertility rate is among the Amish and its at I don’t between 5 and 7. The current Chechen TFR is estimated to be at 2.5 or so and declining

        In a few years at current rate and note projections can hold over a few years to a at most decade or so, it will reach replacement or maybe lower

        That has self corrected

        No developed nation has high fertility mainly because of urbanization and economic incentives not to have children

        If we want to fix this and be stable if not grow it will require taking capitalism and its incredible efficiency out behind the proverbial chemical shed and shooting it. Markets yes, modernity and capitalism. No.

        Instead you get an authoritarian Right Wing state with an a family first economy that eschews large scale industry for smaller family owned shops and is less efficient .

        This can still give us a strong defense but it won’t be 1 or two big companies but many smaller partnerships like it was during peak America and no one will be buying anyone

        It also means wealth and work sharing and a lot of other things “Capital” hates

        Most importantly it means mass repatriation and a near ban on immigration, homogeneity and no cheap labor

        Our ruling class would rather burn the nation down or die rather than give up their position or ideology which means if the Dissident Right decides this is what they want, they’ll have to take power probably the hard way

        • Sorry – but I don’t see “capitalism” as the problem.

          The money taken out of my pocket BY FORCE thru taxation is not a feature of capitalism.

          Speaking as somebody who actually has an 8 week old infant sitting at home – I don’t see the problem being “capitalism” – but rather a completely over-reaching government (socialism) that takes what wealth I create – and redistributes it to a bunch of people who don’t do a damn thing.

          What is the birth rate of immigrants and the black underclass? Just read an article that said that 65% of immigrant households – were taking government assistance.

          How many kids does a black welfare mother spit out – ON MY DIME? Didn’t Vox estimate that the average black welfare recipient sucked something like $700k of taxpayer money out of white taxpayers?

          It seems to me that far too many non-thinkers have fully sucked up the definition of capitalism shoved down their throats by the left.

          How many hours a week would I have to work – if I didn’t have to support all those members of the free shit army? How many hours a week would I then have back – to raise my own children?

          Sorry – but I see the birth rate issue thru the lense of time vs money. Since I only have so much time – I have to take a hard look at where my money goes. And a FULL evaluation of where my hard earned work disappears off to shines a very big light on the entire do-nothing class of all those living off my tax dollars.

          If I paid NO taxes – I could cut my work hours in HALF (at least) – and have all that time back to raise children – while still having the same amount of income.

          To most people raising children (or not raising them) is purely a practical matter. Ideology falls WAY down on the list.

          • Not likely as I’ve never seen this before. Its interesting though.

            And as for Carlsdad’s hard work, well yes however running a society that allows your work to reach its potential requires the right conditions and these are costly.

            Propriety is not created in a vacuum while yes by individuals (the persons deserving the most reward) in conditions that require inputs that must be paid for

            There is plenty of room to cut waste as the shutdown shows but you are still going to pay taxes and lots pf them

            Also you are coming from an assumption that you have rights. You have no such things and the idea you have them much less God granted ones is risible. One look at reality and you’s d know better

            What you have is a decaying social contract that was built around the assumption of certain rights and built for a certain population with a limited franchise

            You don’t have that anymore and there is no way to get it back. You neighbors are expecting you to abide by a different set of rules and if you don’t, you die. Its as simple as that

            Feel free to resist the IRS , they’ll happily kill you for it.

            And nope you aren’t voting your way out of it and since you don’t have an ideology, won’t be able to get anyone help you shoot your way out either.

            Almost no one is willing to fight for a minimal state, me included.

            I’ll fight for a pro family one and for some limits but I want things lie the FDA, EPA and very possibly Social Security and Medicare as well. I’ll fight to make America more homogeneous too and for some Social Conservatism as well

            Unlike the “no state” crowd I know better than to trust corporations, trusts, or any other business too far. I won’t fight with people who want to directly or indirectly help the oligarchs and getting rid of the State does just that . The State needs to be tamed and made to work for us, not gotten rid off

          • LOL.

            I never said no state. And you’re probably one of the reasons why I keep coming away from the comment section here with reaking stench of leftism coming out of my browser.

            The fact remains that (as you pointed out) – I cannot escape the state and it’s taxation. And what is going on NOW – is that that state is raping me financially to support my enemies.

            All of those crying about white birth rates completely fail to pay attention to this – while yelling and screaming about wanting to keep their welfare state (as you just did) – yet fail to see that their welfare state is now sucking them dry and being fed into the already full bellies of their enemies.

            I read an article recently that said the wars in the Mideast have consumed $4.5 trillion. Seeing as how only about half of the people in the US pay any taxes – that means that $29k has been pulled from pocket to just for failed wars in the sandbox.

            That’s ONE kid I couldn’t afford to have.

            Then there’s the article that Zman linked to – which estimates that hundreds of thousands are pulled from my pockets to support the diversity.

            There’s a few more kids I couldn’t afford to have.

            Yeah – “society” costs money. What it doesn’t need however is a massive welfare class – or dozens upon dozens of government agencies who contribute nothing but making my life harder.

            There’s quite a bit of public infrastructure around the Boston area and it’s surrounding towns – that was built in the late 1800’s or early 1900’s – BEFORE the implementation of the progressive welfare state. For some reason people were actually able to afford well designed and long lasting public infrastructure BEFORE government dollars went into the maw of the free shit army – but once the bulk of your tax dollars started flowing into the do-nothing class – we started getting fall-down bridges and crap infrastructure.

            All you turds who constantly argue for government oversight – AND a return to a health West – completely fail to acknowledge that the West started going down the shitter once it implemented the welfare state – and was in fact more healthy and growing – when it had NONE of that.

            Show me on the doll where corporate America is screwing me anywhere near as badly as the government sector is.

            I can avoid corporations by simply not buying their shit. That option is simply not open to me in any practical form in regards to the government – unless I want to go all Ted Kazinski.

          • You can avoid some taxes pretty easily, cut your income and standard of living as low as you possibly can without causing injury to your family.

            In any case the way the economy works, mostly because of automation, any gains you think you’d get from lower taxes would just go to the top 10% of wage earners, more likely the 1%

            The global demand for labor is much lower than the population and automation allow for. This is structural and global BTW, cheaper labor and machines took good paying jobs (or is that jerbs)

            Now mass repatriation of all illegals, nearly all H1B green card types and anyone else we can might increase the demand for labor some and eventually wages with it.

            This would also have to be serious import controls and tariffs to keep China and everyone else from destroying US industry by undercutting prices

            You pay less taxes but somewhat higher prices for good and done right, wages might go up faster, Maybe.

            If machines are cheaper though, you wages go down,

            I’ll note though during this supposed Trump boom caused by tax relief, wages are still flat .This suggests that tax relief won’t raise wages and its unrealistic to assume any level of plausible tax cuts will

            Getting rid of the 19% or so GDP the government gobbles up isn’t possible and won’t give you a pay raise.

            Now one point we might agree on is tax reform, going to a simple flat tax of 5% social security (plus 5% from employers) plus 20% above minimum wage is certainly better than the current system for wage earners.

            It probably won’t cause wage growth though. The only way that will happen is either heavy economic nationalism or serious population decline, both quite possibly with technology controls

            And guess what without that pay bump, you get no babies,

            As Cappy Cap says “Enjoy the Decline”

          • I keep hearing that argument – and it’s horseshit.

            As I already said: I can’t escape the grasp of the taxman unless I want to live like Ted Kazinski.

            Making the argument that I should give up any standard of living at all – just to avoid the taxman – is basically agreement with my point that there is no escape from the government. Whereas there IS escape from corporations – because I can simply refuse to buy their shit (unless I’m forced to by Obamacare) – and there isn’t a goddam thing they can do about it – UNLESS they get the government involved.

            The “corporations are worse!” crowd is demonstrably full of crap.

    • Greg’s not wrong, but there’s more to it. The old divide between Cavalier and Roundhead is the root of it. The Cold Civil War, as Derb puts it. It’s evolved into a weird new divide. The two halves of the Judeo-Puritan over-class see immigration as an unalloyed good, but for different reasons. The former is emotionally committed to cosmopolitanism as a part of their group identity. The latter sees themselves as shepherds, protecting non-whites from the predations of bad whites.

      The reason the Left has evolved so quickly on the immigration issue is not practical politics. I’ve always thought that was just a repeat of the old error the Right always makes when evaluating the Left. What’s happened is the American Left has evolved into a purely spiritual identity movement. Practical considerations are, at best, decoration. They are for open borders, because that’s who they are.

      • Yep, which is why bringing up facts and logic don’t help – at least with them. As to normie white Americans, they are massively influenced by the media, which is more or less controlled by the Judeo-Puritan coalition.

        As long as the media frames the immigration debate as a debate about whether you’re a good, moral person (pro-immigration) or a nasty, bigot (anti-immigration), a huge portion of white women and a fair amount of white men will be pro-immigration.

        Large numbers of whites are utterly addicted to the feeling of moral superiority over their neighbors, and they’ll get that drug wherever they can. It’s why so many people post about how great they or their kids are on Facebook. It’s a way to show how much better they are. The same is true with parroting the media’s moral marching orders.

        TV, movies and daytime talk shows are the most power propaganda tools ever invented. While whites may no longer trust the news, they still watch hours of propaganda a day, absorbing its definition of good and bad.

        • The moral creed most Americans – who are completely controlled by the media and don’t even know it – is, “Just be nice and if you are racist you are mean.” All of our political and cultural problems flow from that: the obsession with buggery, blacks, crime, government debt. All of it.

      • The task of the Righteous is to bring the Kingdom of Heaven to Earth. So America must become like the Kingdom of Heaven. And the Righteous believe in Universal Salvation, especially for the Lowly, who will be lifted up. So everyone gets in, and the Lowly get the Priority Lane.

        The only exception to Universal Salvation is those who do not believe in Universal Salvation. They can go straight to Hell.

        • Which is why these people believe that Badwhites need to be destroyed. Not negotiated with, destroyed.

          What most Goodwhites don’t understand is that there are no Goodwhites in the eyes of these fanatics. All whites are bad, tainted by racism – either conscious or unconscious. Proof that white racism exists is the continuing achievement gap and crime statistics.

          I keep telling people that the only logical endgame for the Cult of Equality theocracy that we live under is the elimination of the white race, either through miscegenation or elimination. You can not eliminate racism without eliminating white people.

          In their minds, whites had their chance to repent over the past 50 years. We refused – the proof being the continued various achievement gaps. Now, we must pay the price.

          • Well, there *are* other logical endgames. Look at Spain between 1934 and mid-1936. Then look around America. Then look at Spain from July 1936 to April 1939. I rest my case.

      • All the same, I maintain that they are the tools of the globalists, although whether witting or unwitting tools, I can’t say.

      • That’s not who many are. In fact I can’t name one of my relatives in New York or Chicago who does not believe in open borders for any other sort of (eg. Non-Western) country and totally reject the concept for our homeland here in Israel. And, to be perfectly honest, I don’t think this is a uniquely diaspora opinion. The ruling elite of the US wants to be the ruling elite of the globe. They know full well they will have to make exceptions for people like mine. They know they don’t have to make any exception for yours.

        The progressive religion is for bougie middle class rubes. Anyone with elite status knows the score. If they didn’t, they would be incapable of actually wielding power.

  26. Last week Trump announced this:
    H1-B [sic] holders in the United States can rest assured that changes are soon coming which will bring both simplicity and certainty to your stay, including a potential path to citizenship,”

    So even he caves on some part of immigration. Actually he caves on a lot of things.
    The U.S. has had long moratoriums on immigration before in our history, step one is starting another one. Then soft deportations and the like to follow. I know, wake up.

    • The woke take on this is that H1B rules have been tightened by the admin and this tweet was a “troll,” due to the fact H1B already allows a green card and citizenship application. Ergo the intended message is something like “most of you are going back and you know it.”

      Whether or no this is true, “skilled,” visa immigration is vastly more harmful to the US population than unskilled peasant laborers, in the long term. The latter drains the public coffers and increases crime. The former gains control over vital institutions and turns them against the host population.

      • Brahmins take over IT leadership positions at large corporations, and suddenly TATA, Infosys, and WiPro are getting all the contracts. And no Americans are promoted to management positions. I’m sure it has nothing to do with ethnic nepotism at all. They posted the job in the back of the journal of mainframe engineering after all and no Americans applied!

      • It’s not a cave.

        Trump is supposed to making it harder to bypass US citizens as well as pay H1Bs less.

        FTN looked at this over the weekend.

  27. An Engrish teacher friend of mine talks about teaching refugees while he was in College in the early nineties. He was working for Catholic Charities and started out teaching Vietnamese refugees Engrish. He claims they were great. Wanted to be Americans. Wanted to start their own businesses. Came to every class offered. Cried like babies when they got their citizenship. Then, they started to get Somalis and he quit. They had multiple wives and countless children which allowed them to game the system for “assistance”. None of them gave a rat’s ass about learning Engrish or about job training. His descriptor for the Somalis was arrogant retards. He’s a good bit older than me so the world was still in deep denial, but I suspect that’s when he got woke.

    • Well I think a lot of people are waking up to the realities of this. I read a horror story from a young mom who just wanted to take the family kids swimming one day. They all load up, go down to the pool – and find that admission is now $20.00 a kid. While they’re hashing this out – a bunch of happy, jubilant brown kids go swarming past the cashier and flash red wrist bands. They were ‘pore n’ starvin’ so they got to go for free. That mom had to pack her kids up, and take them home because she couldn’t afford to pay for her own 8 kids. Those are the demographics that need to wake up.

    • For some reason, thousands of Somalis immigrants were dumped in Lewistown, Maine. Not sure if it was a kind of a joke to settle them into an bankrupt old mill town with long harsh winters, or just a place nobody thinks about – out of sight and mind.

      Of course crime, welfare, violence, trash on the street, and all the other benefits of vibrancy spiked upon their arrival. Good thinking people all purposely don’t notice any of it.

      • Out of sight and out of mind – in a bankrupt mill town in Maine – means they’re all here living on “public assistance” of some form or another.

        Which brings about the question that I keep asking immigration activists over and over and over again:

        Why the hell are we IMPORTING people – to put them on welfare? Can you explain the logic of that to me?

        So far – over a number of years – NO TAKERS.

        There was a story circulating a week or so ago – that said something like 65% of immigrant households were reliant on government assistance.

        Again – can somebody explain the logic of that to me?

        The numbers always mean something to me – because it means I can actually quantify the screw job that I’m on the receiving end of.

        • Ahhhh, Carlsdad. There’s your problem.
          You’re off using that pesky LOGIC thing again.
          Pathological altruists cannot be fought with logic. It simply doesn’t work. Emotion is where it’s at.
          (I myself am still working on how to address this seemingly un-winnable “discussion” that they like to have [lecture] with us.)
          Maybe something like: “My brother was mur dered by an Eritrean or Chadian Musloid just looking for a better life. To remember him by, I have scanned some of the crime scene photos and carry them with me. Wanna see?”

          • Yes – I realize that.

            That’s why when the logic thing falls flat – I go directly to the argument:

            ” why is it that there are so many people that keep doing things that make me wish they were just dead ? ”

            And then you just smile at them.

        • The rejoinder I commonly see is “Who are we to keep them out?” These people are completely lost. The dude probably has DeAndre come over to impregnate his wife.

        • Okay, this is not something that is simply “happening.” It’s something that is being done. We are being replaced. So are the native populations of ALL white countries. Because the globalists must remove the only peoples of the world capable of offering *effective* resistance to their brave new world. And yes, it really is that simple. It is working at present because of the social mood, which is founded, although unconsciously, upon the easy and cheap availability of ALL resources. But that is going to change, as it must, and then, and only then, will this stuff be stopped. But the social mood will have to change first, and that will happen when resources are no longer easily obtainable (and seemingly inexhaustible) and cheap. That process is now well underway.

          For the world-wide currency crisis is already underway (in Europe, although most people have not yet noticed it) and because the sun has now entered another Grand Solar Minimum, so the earth is now in a cooling cycle, which is FAR more destructive than a warming cycle.

          • That’s my point of asking the logical question of “why do we keep IMPORTING people and dumping them on welfare?”.

            It FORCES the issue and makes the lunatics admit that they’re engaging in their lunacy based on emotion.

            You’re correct – this is something that isn’t just “happening”

        • The logic is that all of these welfare recipients really do add to GDP. They are consumers of the best type-they spend every dime you give them and save nothing. We live in a debt fueled, consumption driven economy in which the rate of growth must be ever increasing or the whole house of cards comes crashing down. The mess is not sustainable, but our elites have done pretty well in perpetuating this mess so far.

      • The US Department of State purposefully resettles blacks and Muslims in majority white areas to alter the gene pool and get Democrat votes.

    • Here in south Louisiana back in the early 80s we got a ton of Vietnamese transplants at the end of Vietnam war. For some reason carter decided to bless our community with them! “Just dump it on those dumb southerners.” I personally like Asians too, but they rapidly outcompeted the local shrimpers. Of course, they are willing to work their fingers to the bone, evolved as they are to survive in the hyper competitive, densely overpopulated environs of Southeast Asia. There were actual fire fights with machine guns between native Louisianan fishermen and Vietnamese trawlers over fishing turf. My point is to question the stewardship of those bringing in peoples with a competitive advantage over the locals. Thanks for doing this to us northeastern elites! Hope you are enjoying your college degrees and swanky cars. What out for the Chinese…

      • “outcompeted” is a subjective term. Part of the problem was that methods of fishing were different, and locals felt like the Vietnamese were overfishing. Another big part of the problem was that the Carter administration financed their boats which gave them a large competitive advantage over the locals

        • You will find virtually any such instance of “highly competitive immigrants,” is accompanied by a federal grant in aid, special dispensation, or otherwise putting a state finger on the scale. The only myth is the understanding most Americans have, that immigrants are naturally hard working.

          • I do get a little bit sick of that argument. The entire argument seems to rest on a foundation of American myth – where the feats of settlers were probably completely exaggerated to almost superhuman levels.

            I have seen some of that “work the fingers to the bone” behavior out of Vietnamese I worked with in the early 80’s – but these were people who escaped the commie takeover – and then lived in refugee camps for years before getting here.

            Working 14 hours a day to them was *relative* luxury. They also worked from a basis of a large family that supported them. The males didn’t do laundry or make their lunches – the womenfolk took care of that. One family of ten would share ONE car.

            Quite a bit of a different dynamic than the typical American who’s wife doesn’t do shit for him and has to support himself – as well as work 12 hours a day.

          • Oh they’re still like that. I work at the casinos where they are numerous. Their wives pack them dinners and the menfolk will often work two or more jobs.

          • I worked in a printing plant right out of high school.

            We had quite a few Vietnamese working there – and I got along well with them. There were one pair – who you simply couldn’t STOP from working. We used to call them the Amphetimine Twins , because they seemed to have so much energy.

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