The Problems Of Design

Whenever the subject of Intelligent Design turns up, it is always in the context of believers in ID attacking evolutionary biology. The ID’ers have a list of claims about “Darwinism” that they insist make evolution impossible. A popular one now, for example, is that there is not enough time for natural selection to produce enough gene mutations to explain the fossil record. A fair description of ID is that it is a list of arguments and assertions about evolution wrapped around a set of central claims.

One of those claims is that creation, as we observe it, must be the result of design and therefore a designer. They never describe the designer, as most people just assume they mean God, but the designer could be space aliens, in theory. A certain type of self-described Christian finds this appealing. They assume the designer is God, as they have an understanding of God that is much more personal. They believe God is highly involved in the granular details of human existence.

Now, it should be pointed out that this understanding of God is outside Christian tradition and perhaps even anti-Christian. Early Christians, like the Jews of the period, were highly influenced by the Greek understanding of the world. For them, the universe was an orderly place operating by fixed rules. You can’t have a covenant with God, after all, if the universe is a lawless place controlled by a fickle creator. That would make God’s covenant with man just another trick played by him on mankind.

Intelligent Design is occasionalism. While the natural world seems to operate along a set of knowable rules, God often intervenes to change results. He is always in that space between cause and effect, ready to alter the relationship according to his design. God created the platypus for reasons only known to God. If he chooses, he can make the Nile flow south or the sky turn pink. The proof of this, according to Intelligent Design, is the variety of species alive today, as well those no longer in existence.

In fairness to the ID’ers, occasionalism did creep into Christian theology in the Middle Ages, as the Christian West came into contact with Islam. Nicholas of Autrecourt was a 14th century French theologian, who was a critic of the orderly view of the natural world and a proto-occasionalist. David Hume dabbled in the ideas, but stopped short of claiming a creator or designer. Modern ID’ers can therefore claim they are not way outside Christian tradition, but they would have to defend against it.

Another central claim of Intelligent Design is that the natural world is either the result of chance or design. This is the keystone of their theory, as Intelligent Design is not an affirmative argument in favor of a designer. Instead, they frame the debate as between two competing theories. Therefore, if one is shown to be invalid, by default the other must be true. It is a bit of rhetorical sleight of hand to avoid the central problems of Intelligent Design, which of course is that it can never be proven.

This aspect of Intelligent Design relies on a characterization of natural selection as random chance, like rolling of dice. It’s the claim that a football game is either the result of random chance or the game is fixed by the officials, either in advance or as the game proceeds to its conclusion. Obviously, this is ridiculous. The result of a sports match is not random and it is not predetermined or fixed. The result of a sportsball game, is the result of the players acting and reacting to one another, within a known set of rules.

That’s the case with evolutionary biology. Random mutations in the genome are one aspect of the evolutionary process. Environment obviously plays a role here.  Sexual selection is another. Human intervention is another. After all, people have killed off whole species. People have killed off whole groups of people. Like the sportsball game, there are multiple actors, acting and reacting, within a set of rules that science does not fully understand. Evolution is not an argument in favor of chance.

The point here is Intelligent Design is built, in part, on a false dichotomy. Natural selection is not random chance, at least not how most people understand what random chance means. Further, even if natural selection is unable to explain everything, there are other forces, like sexual selection, that come into play. Even if everything about evolutionary biology is wrong, it does not make Intelligent Design true. It simply means we have no good answer understanding the natural world.

This again comes back to the question as to whether Intelligent Design is at odds with Christian theology. The Sphynx cat exists and we know why. The ID’ers would argue that it is an example of design, but that presupposes the breeders were either directed by God or compelled by God to create the breed. That means man has no agency and that sin cannot truly exist. This argument for Intelligent Design comes dangerously close to the argument that man has no free will, which is heretical on its face.

This is why ID’er focus all of their energy on the negative argument, making various claims about evolutionary science. That way, the discussion is always on the science, rather than the theology. This rhetorical sleight of hand is also dishonest, which raises another theological problem for ID’ers. How can something be in line with Biblical teaching if it is based on a falsehood? Maybe the ID’er have a way to explain this, but it is not something they choose to address in their books and articles.

The most serious issue with Intelligent Design is what it implies about God. A designer that is endlessly tinkering with his creation is not a designer with foresight. Alternatively, it is a designer that is a fickle trickster, tinkering with his creation for his own amusement, without regard for his creation. It is a designer that purposely makes flawed creations that harm his other creations. This is a designer burning army men with a magnifying glass and blowing up the model train trestle. That’s not God. That’s the Devil.

From a mainstream Christian perspective, Intelligent Design has some serious theological problems, with occasionalism being the main one. The one way to solve the theological problems is to move the designer back to the beginning, where the Bible writers preferred to place him. The classic watchmaker model, where God sets the universe in motion, according to a fixed set of rules, with evolution possibly being one of them. That leaves room to debate evolution, but does not make God a villain.


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Desert Rat
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Desert Rat

When creation is taken as God simply conjuring things from nothing then the idea of a process unfolding over time becomes anathema. When creation is seen as an act of organizing toward an ideal with God using the elemental building materials which are themselves eternal then the idea of “evolution” makes sense. The use of the word “day” in Genesis has led to all kinds of difficulties. If the translators had used “time” or “period” it could have led to a lot less pointless argument and contention.

Exile
Guest
Exile

We have to ditch the literalist interpretation of Jewish-plagiarized Mesopotamian creation myths and reassert a Christian, not Torah/OT-by-proxy concept. You’re using a good example of the rethinking process. If Christianity is going to survive modernity, and I hope it does, it has to break with the black-letter-Book (and much of the Chosen OT in general*) and take those ideas as what the understanding of that day permitted. *Judaic identity is almost entirely atheistic now but it’s chugging along pretty well compared to Christianity. Judaism by design is materialistic and can much better withstand the death of transcendent belief. Judaism can… Read more »

Member

Couldn’t agree more.
They were Story thieves before they were land thieves.

Compsci
Guest
Compsci

The problem is not the use of the term “day” but the literal acceptance/interpretation of figurative expressions. The Bible is replete with such. Do folks really think that “7 x’s 70” or “40 days and 40 nights” just keeps cropping up? Look, the Bible was written (actually compiled) over the years by men inspired by God (at least that’s one interpretation/explanation). These folk had an ancient’s understanding of time and numbers—much less an ability to express such in writing. Look to the moral teachings, take the rest with a grain of salt.

c matt
Guest
c matt

The 7×70 is a good example of symbolic sense. It does not mean you don’t have to forgive the 491st transgression against you. The trick is figuring out when symbolic sense is intended, and when it is not.

Larry
Guest
Larry

As regards the new eisegesis of Yom

http://kolbecenter.org/meaning-yom-genesis/

Donald Cavaioli
Member

Don’t biologists propose spontaneous generation themselves with life somehow appearing about 4 billion years ago out of molecules called organic that have some special property of becoming alive unlike the other atoms and molecules? When you think about it, what is a cell other than a machine, a computer with a self replication program? An extremely complex machine created by a chance series of chemical reactions in the right environment that take place just in the right sequence to make the machine come into existence and function. What are the odds of that? And this doesn’t even take into account… Read more »

Ant Man Bee
Guest

Z: “A designer that is endlessly tinkering with his creation is not a designer with foresight.” This is a mistaken perception of the nature of God. You are speaking from the perspective of a character in a movie, who does not know how the story will end, rather than from the perspective of the director, who has already finished the film and sent it off to Cannes. God is omniscient, and presumably sees the universe from an outside perspective. From God’s perspective, the whole history of the universe is already a done deal. God knows how the universe begins and… Read more »

LineInTheSand
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LineInTheSand

I’m pro-Christianity but…

“God is omniscient, and presumably sees the universe from an outside perspective. From God’s perspective, the whole history of the universe is already a done deal.”

Then why the whole original sin testing of each man, the Judas betrayal and Christ crucifixion, and the micro-managing of ID? Why did He have to watch the whole bloody drama unfold if He knows how it will end?

If a man is eventually going to prove unworthy of God, why not just immediately consign him to Hell, instead of going through the whole drama?

Member

Apparently, He enjoys the bloody struggle. The devastating diseases are quite a nice touch to the stage scenery.

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

Maybe God stepped outside for a quick smoke, and things got completely out of hand very quickly. 🙂

Karl McHungus
Guest
Karl McHungus

especially the sexually transmitted ones 😛

Rod1963
Guest
Rod1963

That’s why he provided us with rules in regards to sexual conduct which don’t follow and get a diseased pecker because of it.

JR Wirth
Guest
JR Wirth

He enjoys our spiritual growth as humans as we endure the bloody struggles. Otherwise we would be born in Heaven as very shallow, sheltered people, who turn to doing lines of coke by a crystal clear brook, dabble in Satanism, and crash new Acuras into trees up there because we wouldn’t know how good we have it, being totally unappreciative of our good fortune. In other words, my former prep-school.

Member

Well, that doesn’t say much for angels, does it?

JR Wirth
Guest
JR Wirth

Different beings all together. No human nature there. Although we know of at least one that didn’t make the cut.

Member

There is a section in Milton’s Paradise Lost where God sees Satan making his way up from hell toward earth. Basically The Son asks, “Aren’t you going to stop him?” But God is in one of his “moods” and decides to let Satan proceed. Just to see what will happen. I guess God gets bored, too.

Al from da Nort
Guest
Al from da Nort

Epa;
Milton is (I guess) great literature, but not scripture. Now, I ‘know’ you are joking…

Member

If you are making sausage, the process may be unpleasant, and you know exactly what will happen and how it will end, but if you want sausage, you still have to make the sausage.

Bruce
Guest
Bruce

Because it is all in the eternal present from God’s perspective – the perspective of past, present, future represents our limited perspective. We make every free willed decision affecting our destiny all at once from God’s perspective.

c matt
Guest
c matt

Because, as explained above, He is outside time and it is His nature to perceive all time at once. Even those things which to us can only be perceived sequentially. If you are asking in the sense of what’s the point of it all, why not just save us all, bypass this sin testing thingy, etc., it is because if God is true Charity, and seeks true charity in return, then Charity demands the option of rejection. For Judas to truly love God, Judas has to have the freedom to reject God, otherwise his “love” is simply programming, not agency.… Read more »

Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
Guest
Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman

Your questions assume that you know what is going on. But do you? If so, how? What if we are only stage props in a drama for observers that we know nothing of? Why do we have to be the center of the whole thing?

Member

Isn’t that the point of creating something? To watch it work and unfold? I know I would personally love to set something in motion knowing how it all winds up, but get to enjoy all the twists and turns along the way that lead to that conclusion. I mean, I’ve done things in my life that I’ve known from the start were going to turn out a certain way (sometimes good, sometimes not), but that didn’t mean I stopped enjoying the journey. I mean at a real simple level, I drove my daughter to college last weekend for the first… Read more »

Larry
Guest
Larry

God created everything for His Glory and He created man to know Him, Love Him, serve Him in this world and to be happy with Him forever in the next world.

Man is created for Happiness but many men (apparently TheZ Man too) prefers the fiction of darwinism because it, supposedly, releases him for his culpability of sin.

If one is a product of evolution, then a man has no choice. That includes the Z Man.

He is what he is and believes what he does because he is just the product an outrageously long succession of mutations and adaptations.

Exile
Guest
Exile

When theology descends to this level of debate, which you see in both Catholic church fathers like Augustine and Aquinas and Prots like Calvin, it ceases to have any real meaning to those of us operating in “human scale logic.” It’s effectively saying “shutup, this is above your head, just do what we say.” It won’t work with modrens. Look at church attendance and belief. Those who can be satisfied with this mindset are a dwindling minority. It’s a reactionary mindset and negative identity that only serves to illuminate what you stand against rather than what you stand for –… Read more »

R7 Rocket
Guest
R7 Rocket

@Exile

“It’s effectively saying “shutup, this is above your head, just do what we say.” It won’t work with modrens. Look at church attendance and belief.”

“Those who can be satisfied with this mindset are a dwindling minority.”

LMAO. Have you observed any of the SJWs? The Climate Change True believers? Those who preach that “systematic racism” and “white privilege” mantras?

Exile
Guest
Exile

That nonsense, what Chesterton called “believing in anything,” has filled the void left by Christian theologians who had nothing better to say than “argle-bargle so STFU and do what we tell you.” We need to have better answers. If your strategy for beating globshlomo relies on SJW-AGW-grade propaganda, you’re going to need the Megaphone to make your nonsense more popular than theirs. And Shlomo’s not handing you the Megaphone. We have to think deeper than simply saying “the stupid public will believe anything.” They’re obviously not believing in Christ or any established Church, they’re making the churches believe in poz… Read more »

R7 Rocket
Guest
R7 Rocket

@Exile
The Churches of Poz (the Universities) are quite full because they have power and the dumb bovine masses will believe anything power tells them (as long as those in power avoid too many mistakes).

JR Wirth
Guest
JR Wirth

Christianity is now a shallow earth cult. Most churches have nothing going on.

Member

The have nothing spiritual going on. It’s been replaced by cultural marxism

c matt
Guest
c matt

Hence why the first goal of public education is to dumb down the populace. It is not above the intelligence of the average human unless said human being has had the intelligence ground out of him.

Rod1963
Guest
Rod1963

Most denominations committed suicide by adopting modern progressive values that people like you advocate. It drove out many faithful and left people like yourself, nice progressives who embrace post Vatican-II values of anything goes. Then they watch their church curl up and die.

The faithful don’t want your gumbo of nihilism and scientism that so many moderns peddle, especially SJWs. If that stuff was attractive,Christians would embrace it. They don’t.

It’s not life affirming, it respects nothing , It’s the culture of death in a post-modern package.

Daniel
Guest
Daniel

Hard questions require hard answers. If you want to talk about the meaning of life, the universe and everything, it’s going to defy human scale logic. The first cause of time and space has to exist beyond time and space. Some Christians will not be interested in such things, but those who are find such explanations worth debating.

Karl McHungus
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Karl McHungus

anyone who claims to know “god’s” intent can safely be ignored. All religious texts are the work of man, not god.

Karl McHungus
Guest
Karl McHungus

“Aunt Bee”

Bruce
Guest
Bruce

The Christian understanding is God is in the “eternal present” not the past or future.

Desert Rat
Guest
Desert Rat

You are a liar.

LineInTheSand
Guest
LineInTheSand

You’ve got to do better than that. C’mon, try harder (unless predestination implies that you can not try harder).

Member

I’m trying to think of anything in this long running debate you failed to misstate. You do say ID doesn’t mention God which is accurate, then go on a bit about how it would be a bad God that would do occasionalism. And somehow Men were able to guide the Cambrian explosion a billion years before they existed. Have you read in depth either, much less both sides of the debate? And there are more sides! It is hard to find something to specifically criticize because nearly everything is simply wrong – strawmen made of strawmen. I would say you… Read more »

Exile
Guest
Exile

When you find yourself in a tiny minority asserting a theory whose only refuge is “you can’t prove me wrong,” the burden’s on you. The “climate deniers” who oppose the modern AGW scam maintained by sham consensus can point to very strong evidence in their favor. AGW’s a strawman built on strawmen because evidence shows it. I can’t prove you’re not wrong, but that’s all you have to defend yourself on a shrinking island of non-evidence. The window of plausibility for your theory keep shrinking, and unlike climate realists, you have nothing to push back with except sophism & theology.… Read more »

Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
Guest
Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
R7 Rocket
Guest
R7 Rocket

@tz1 The Bible writers wrote a lot more about men and women than they did on the Beginning. They and the Church Fathers would’ve easily passed the RedPill on women test. Let’s see if you can pass it. I’ve made it easier by making it multiple choice: “Complete the following the sentence: Women misbehave because ——————“ [A] Capitalism makes them misbehave, by economically incentivizing reckless high time-reference behavior over long-term planning. The capitalist class benefits from one night stands and sterility, as it benefits from third world immigration of spendthrift cheap labor to replace frugal whites. [B] The Jews make… Read more »

Member

Z, I think this is the most wrong you’ve ever been. Not taking position for or against ID, where you are wrong is to think this is may be heretical. Also you are wrong that God does not affect outcome of football games or other events of the world. The Bible is littered with God’s interventions from small personal interventions, such as Sara being barren (Genesis 11:20)) and then God told Abraham that Sara would have a child (Genesis 17:15, 17:16). To more cataclysmic such as God destroying the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19:24, 19:25), and of course… Read more »

Karl McHungus
Guest
Karl McHungus

what does the bible have to do with evolution?

Official Bologna Tester
Guest
Official Bologna Tester

Karl McHungus said: ” what does the bible have to do with evolution?”
What does evolution have to do with moral instruction?

Exile
Guest
Exile

TuNes’ citing the Bible to establish real world events/miracles, not as allegory or parable, etc… Relying on belief in miracles is a huge part of what’s killing Christianity today. When people don’t see miracles, they conclude that either a) God doesn’t exist or b) God doesn’t care enough about them to intervene with “small daily miracles” for them. It’s why preachers rightfully condemned Lou Holtz and others back in the day for “coaching God” in football games.

c matt
Guest
c matt

Let me ask you this then: If the miracles are only to be taken as allegory or parable rather than real world events, why bother? Why not just read Freud or Jung? Why not just skip the allegory and parable bs, and just get on with it?

By the way what are the allegories/parables the miracles supposedly represent? Sara having a kid late in life means what, allegorically?

Karl McHungus
Guest
Karl McHungus

“What does evolution have to do with moral instruction” nothing.

Al from da Nort
Guest
Al from da Nort

Karl McH; Your point is more subtle than maybe you intend. You’re very right that The Bible does not speak of evolution at all, much less either positively or negatively. The man behind the curtain is that *evolution* has been used for a 150+ years to speak negatively about The Bible. The materialists brag that since Darwin they have no need for God to account for the variability of natural world as though this is dispositive. For some reason, it is assumed that God could not work through evolution as well as through creation ‘ex nihilo’ (i.e. from nothing) if… Read more »

DLS
Guest
DLS

Juxtapose the current state of scientific knowledge about the creation and evolution of the universe, and more specifically earth, with the Genesis account of creation. Genesis identifies the exact correct sequence from the big bang, to the dark earth covered in water, surrounded by dense clouds, to the creation of the atmosphere, to plate tectonics, and finally to the evolution of life – from plant life and sea based creatures, to birds, to land based animals, to humans. How did the writer of Genesis get the exact sequencing correct 3000 years ago? It was not until the big bang was… Read more »

Exile
Guest
Exile

This is exactly the kind of argument that’s been progressively emptying churches of modrens since the 19th century. This is what we have to get past if Christianity is to live to the 22nd century and beyond. Love Christ enough to put the Jewish Torah down, please. Do you see the Jews running around doing this? When’s the last time you saw a Jew argue in a public forum using their supposedly holy Torah? It’s Talmudism, all the way down, and they laugh all the way to the bank and the other corridors of power when Christians do this.

Ris_Eruwaedhiel
Guest
Ris_Eruwaedhiel

One early Christian section was Marcionism, which rejected the Old Testament and only used the Book of Luke and 10 books attributed to Paul. Marcion of Sinope’s argument was that wrathful god of the OT was not the same god as the all-loving and forgiving god of the NT.

Exile
Guest
Exile

I do some digging into NT-only/ascendant contra-Semitic Christian heresies when I can. All information appreciated, keep it coming. I think that’s one area we need to work on in the Dissident Right. We need to offer Christians a third way between going Odin and following noxious doxing XtiCucks like Katie McHugh right back into the (((fold))).

A.B Prosper
Guest
A.B Prosper

Muscular Old Testament Christianity would work if you can keep it from being infiltrated but it might not work on people who are lapsed and worse it still ties us to the Middle East. Personally I think a society full of Heathens, Asatru, followers of the Dodeca or any of the other Pagan pathways even more Conservative forms of Wicca would be perfectly workable. It would also have the advantage of greatly lowering the connection to the Semitic world which should reduce the amount of troubles our society has with that region and its peoples. Why would my Godi care… Read more »

Exile
Guest
Exile

Fourteen words are all the scripture I require. We can work the rest out among ourselves.

Ris_Eruwaedhiel
Guest
Ris_Eruwaedhiel

“We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.” Steven McNallen, founder and former head of the Asatru Folk Assembly, has spoke out in favor of this statement and been called a racist for it.

Ris_Eruwaedhiel
Guest
Ris_Eruwaedhiel

James Russell wrote “The Germanization of Early Medieval Christianity” about how the Catholic Church reinterpreted Jesus and the Bible to make it appealing to the Germanic people. Jesus as a warrior chieftain instead of a meek lamb dying for the sins of the world. You put your finger on one of the issues that I have with both Christianity and Islam – a believer is expected to identify with an alien people. Even as a child, I wasn’t interested in the history of a bunch of middle eastern nomads. On the other hand, I loved the stories of the old… Read more »

c matt
Guest
c matt

If it is true that Z-man attended Jesuit high schools in the early to mid 80s, then this corruption by the Jebbies is a given. Went through the same experience myself, and it has taken years of patient self-study to undo the damage. Rediscovering the scholastics whom the Jesuits revile is the ultimate redpill.

Exile
Guest
Exile

I’m not losing much sleep over Z’s “corruption” by the Jesuits. The Scholastics have their moments, but it’s mostly a similar mountain of sophistry to that produced by the dual-Loyolists.

c matt
Guest
c matt

The Scholastics are not easy reading. But then anything worthwhile rarely is. We are working off translations written in languages used 1000 years or more ago. Not an easy task. I like Ed Feser’s work on it – makes it accessible to even idiots like me.

Member

There is a pretty wide spectrum of theories around intelligent design, from the watchmaker to the every aspect under His control, 6000 year old young earth creationism. I am not sure that a brief treatment like this does anything to shed any light on a very complex topic.

Member

The Z-Man is really talking through his hat on this one. If you folks are interested in the origin of life the very best source I have found is a book that just happens to be written by Stephen Meyer, the real brains behind ID. It’s a bit of a slog at 628 pages but you’ll end up knowing more about microbiology and combinatorial mathematics than 99% of the kids at the malt shop. This link is to the Amazon Kindle page: You can click on the picture of the book for a look at the introduction and chapter 1.… Read more »

Fish man
Guest
Fish man

I am increasing skeptical of natural selection, while having no interest in ID. Fred Reed is strident on this, without the God element. David Berlinski’s remarks seem reasonable: evolution is both great science and incomplete on random mutation. I happened to see the wiki on the Cambrian explosion says it lasted 13–25 million years.

Karl McHungus
Guest
Karl McHungus

who’s to say that evolution isn’t hard coded into all DNA?

Mark Taylor
Guest
Mark Taylor

Who says it is, I’ve never heard that.

Larry
Guest
Larry

Excellent point. God programmed randomness.

And you laugh those who believe the Bible

Member

This was very good, Zman. It tracks with what I’ve tried to explain to people about the god they worship. I have always refused to believe in a sadistic god who places humans in compromising positions or puts them under intense pressure in order to test them. To their credit, the Calvinists saw right through that and came up with the idea of predestination. But that makes their god even more sadistic, as he has purposefully placed defective humans on the world stage to interact with the “saved” ones. I think the 18th century Deists had it right: God created… Read more »

BadThinker
Guest
BadThinker

The traditional Church generally operates along similar lines – Orthodoxy and Catholicism both have a much more nuanced view of God than the fundamentalists and evangelicals. To the evangelical, God is constantly either ‘testing’ them himself, or allowing the devil to ‘test’ them. The problem of evil is a *huge* problem for the Evangelicals’ God “who has a plan for YOU”. Yes, there are strains of this in Orthodox Christianity, but I don’t think it’s nearly as pronounced as the some of the ridiculous things that show up in Protestantism. Like most other modern things, the problem of modern Christianity… Read more »

Exile
Guest
Exile

Pre-Protestant faiths have the advantage of not overly “personalizing” God in the bespoke, just-for-me sense. They have the disadvantage that when the hierarchy loses legitimacy, God loses legitimacy with them, thus Protestantism and its eventual logical end-point, loss of faith entirely. I worship as a Catholic but rage against the hierarchy like a Protestant and approach theology like a pagan. We need a new syncretism if Christianity is to survive.

Member

Spot on!

Member

This

Eric Davenport
Member

Spot on about protestants. Its possible, that since the 60s, those who appear to be the Catholic Hierarchy are in fact protestants and have no authority over Catholics.

Larry
Guest
Larry

It is FAR worse with the Orthodox, especially their embrace of the gnostic Theology of Gregory Palamas who teaches that God is not a simple spiritual being (no parts) but a collection of various energies and it is those energies which we are called upon to worship. But it gets worse, far worse.. In Orthodoxy there is no such event as the eternal Beatific Vision as a reward for a life of Faith. In eastern orthodoxy, there is only darkness for God, according to Palamas, God its not to be identified with His will, His Intellect, His Love, His truth… Read more »

Karl McHungus
Guest
Karl McHungus

This is my position; the universe exists, and something (outside of the universe) created it. More than that is still unknown.

Member

Deism defined.

Member

I have always refused to believe in a sadistic god

That’s a pretty emotionalistic way to reach a conclusion. Why would you think that of all the ways reality might be organized, the true one would be one you would like?

Member

I have no idea what the “true one” might be. I suspect there are many paths. And they all lead to the same destination. Excuse me if I don’t take that rocky path strewn with booby traps.

JR Wirth
Guest
JR Wirth

People think God is “testing” is. We’re not lab equipment. He’s developing us. No pain no gain.

Member

The Knut Rockne Theory.

Rod1963
Guest
Rod1963

Free will . We make hell on Earth. We white males made it so our women and soyboys dominate us. No one else did. And all our side does is prey for a Pinochet to rescue our cowardly asses. Talk about being children and helpless. This wish for a a Pinochet encapsulates it nicely. BTW no one takes Calvinism seriously except atheists who use them as a club against Christianity. Also those Eastern religions you find so attractive have always been the watering hole of sexual deviant upper class whites with nothing better to do. Worse many are outright cults… Read more »

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

Do you recall that time when your five-ish year old child punctuated every interaction with “but why?”. Just sayin’ 🙂

Member

“No true Darwinist” indeed. Your talk about what ‘random’ “really” means would be more plausible if the Darwinists didn’t revel and gloat so much about chaos being so wonderful and how “brave” and “mature” they are to “face up to meaninglessness.” It’s just like SJW’s saying “of course, there’s no White replacement or genocide,” while simultaneously rejoicing in “our inevitable brown future.”

BadThinker
Guest
BadThinker

“Random” in the truest sense means “Unknown”. If we were to know all of the causes imparted to a die roll (*all* as in *all* of the initial physical conditions), it wouldn’t be a random roll. We talk far too much about ‘random’ things as if they are somehow ‘uncaused’.

c matt
Guest
c matt

at least in statistics, random refers to selection without bias (each value in the event has an equal opportunity of being selected, to use pozzed terminology).

BadThinker
Guest
BadThinker

This idea that events can be ‘random’ is one of the reasons that stats has so many problems right now. Statistician WM Briggs wrote an excellent book on the subject called Uncertainty. There is *no such thing* as ‘selection without bias’ – essentially events that are treated as having ‘no cause’. Causality is real. All frequentists (and lots of Bayesians) forget this. In some constrained cases (e.g. gambling), the relative frequency of an event sometimes is close to the probability of an event. But there is nothing such as ‘randomness’ *except* in the sense that ‘we don’t know the cause,… Read more »

G P
Guest
G P

Honestly haven’t looked at ID for quite a few years, but I believe that those who research ID at various institutes do put the creator at the beginning and do not posit that the creator intervenes after creation. If I remember correctly, they don’t claim that the creator is the Christian God or any god. And they do raise interesting and important problems with evolution. For example, how does evolution account for the creation of a complex system such as sight that relies on multiple types of cells that all need to be present and working together at just the… Read more »

Member
Felix_Krull

If I remember correctly, they don’t claim that the creator is the Christian God or any god. Would they all happen, by chance, to be religious and, again by chance, happen to actually, on a personal level, believe that God is the designer? I am genuinely curious. Apart from one or two alien-proponents, I’ve never met an ID’er who was not religious, but then, I haven’t met many ID’ers. For example, how does evolution account for the creation of a complex system such as sight that relies on multiple types of cells that all need to be present and working… Read more »

Exile
Guest
Exile

I give some credence to the problem of natural selection accounting for structures like the eye that would require mutually supportive successive mutations which in and of themselves, step-by-step, would have no inherent survival, sexual selection or other adaptive value. We’re missing some very important subtle mechanisms in the process of evolution. But that doesn’t change the fact that ID relies just as much on non-falsification as pure deism does for “proof” – that is, solely.

BadThinker
Guest
BadThinker

One thing I find interesting is the idea (I think I read Michael Crichton talking about this) that maybe life is kind of like crystal – it organizes itself because of its nature…

Exile
Guest
Exile

I read a little bit of “convergent evolution” stuff years ago, I think that’s in his line of thinking – always liked that guy. I think there are deeper patterns, and that our present understanding of evo-biology is more on the Newtonian level than quantum. Lotta room for debate over the underlying mechanisms, but the overall effects are observable and verifiable.

Eric Davenport
Member

what are the observable and verifiable effects?

R7 Rocket
Guest
R7 Rocket

@G P

Have you ever heard of light sensitive eyespots, directional cup eyes, pinhole camera eye?

The Creationist Eye argument was debunked decades ago.

Exile
Guest
Exile

It’s not a “creationist” argument, it’s a legitimate question about one part of Darwin’s theory. If the eye argument is right, it shows natural selection is an incomplete explanation for evolution – it says nothing about other theories. This is New Atheist-tier dualism and illustrates what Z says repeatedly here – he’s questioning ID, not “proving Darwin.” Attacking creationism is attacking the weakest critical basis for “anti-Darwinism,” which is itself an overstatement of legitimate critics’ intentions in raising these questions. As for “debunked decades ago,” that’s in the eye of the debunker. Plenty of recent credible academic-grade science disagrees.

c matt
Guest
c matt

The sense I get from ID is that it is a criticism of certain assumptions of MACRO-evolutionary theory, not so much a theory in itself. But it is difficult, particularly for scientists, to say “I don’t know.”

Jack Boniface
Guest
Jack Boniface

In Humani Generis (1950), Pope Pius XII had a good take on faith and evolution: “The Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God.”
http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html

Drake
Guest
Drake

The biggest issue with evolution as currently taught in school is the species problem. We can take a bunch of wolves and selectively breed them for speed and end up with Greyhounds in a few hundred generations. Same way we can turn wild horses into Clydesdales and buffalo into heifers. But they are still genetically wolves, horses, and buffalo. They still have the same number of chromosomes and can still breed viable offspring with their wild ancestors. We’ve never created a new species and have no idea how it’s done. Maybe DNA and RNA runs like an actual computer through… Read more »

Karl McHungus
Guest
Karl McHungus

they used to say separate species could not produce viable offspring, then we get Ligers and so forth (and mules). Guess what, some mules are not infertile!

Drake
Guest
Drake

Something on the order of 1 in a million mules and hinnies are fertile. Lions and tigers are more closely related than horses and donkeys as they both have 38 chromosomes.

Karl McHungus
Guest
Karl McHungus

they have pictures of monkeys — in the wild — copulating with deer! so i think maybe what is possible through random boinking is a non-negligible part of speciation. and you know africans will fukk anything moving slow enough. evidently asians will fukk a shaved orangutan, too.

james wilson
Member

A Dachshund to a Great Dane in few dozen generations, at most. Dog to a cat, theoretically possible in a few tens of million generations. But only theoretically. Extinction events of all sizes put a crimp in such possibilities. Strangely enough, wiping the slate clean appears to open the gate for new designs, appearing out of a mysterious soup. That soup is so not understood that we can’t say the truth is between two things we do not know to be true.

Dr. Mabuse
Guest
Dr. Mabuse

Isn’t “occasionalism” another term for “miracles”? Christians believe that those happen, and that God does intervene in response to prayers. I don’t see why the idea that God might step back into the story after he’s set it going is so contrary to Christianity. Christians are not Greek pagans, no matter how influential those earlier ideas were.

Sleepy
Member
Sleepy

I don’ think Occasionalism means “miracles.” It’s not a term I was familiar with (philosophy is not my bag), but I looked it up, and the idea doesn’t seem to be that “God ‘occasionally’ makes things happen.” I read other references, but I think this is a good place to start: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/occasionalism/ A quote from it: “A full-blown occasionalist, then, might be described as one who subscribes to the following two tenets: (1) the positive thesis that God is the only genuine cause; (2) the negative thesis that no creaturely cause is a genuine cause but at most an occasional… Read more »

John Smith
Member

I am not here to convert anyone or refute anyone. What our esteemed blog host says is doubtlessly true. As a new convert to the faith I struggle with classical Bible doctrine and mythology every single day. Often without success. All I know at this point is that there IS a God. I can feel it. You can too – but for many, they have been cultured, conditioned and indoctrinated not to. Much the same way that girls are growing up thinking they are boys and vice versa. We will see what happens when those trains derail. Despite its complexities… Read more »

LineInTheSand
Guest
LineInTheSand

Sincere question: When you say “All I know at this point is that there IS a God,” do you mean:

1. Creator of all things
2. Moral lawgiver and ultimate judge
3. Universal comforter
?

All of these roles are logically distinct. I am curious.

John Smith
Member

I can’t answer that, LITS. I am a new convert and believe me – as a former atheist/agnostic… the idea of a creator leaves me uncomfortable. I know He’s there, and that’s it. I know we are here for a purpose… and that’s it. I was raised by pozzed proggies and hurled into the void when I refused to accept their stances on stuff like socialism, homosexuality, feminism and all the BS that goes along with that As you can imagine our families all started to implode as reality met ideologies. I looked around and committed another crime by noticing… Read more »

3g4me
Guest
3g4me

John Smith: Beautifully said. I, too, was raised a liberal and was an atheist agnostic, and I, too, noticed that the best people I knew or met – the ones who could truly be relied upon in hard times, the ones who always conducted themselves with dignity (which is not to imply they were always serious, but had an inherent respect for themselves as made in God’s image) were Christians. Over the years things percolated in my head and my heart, and then I turned to an old college friend who sent me books and tracts. It was while reading… Read more »

John Smith
Member

Yep. I can see how Christians get frustrated with guys like these. Our Maker is in plain sight, right under our noses… and yet they can’t see. Or maybe it’s not that they can’t… but that they won’t. They get caught up in the minutiae and details and miss the forest for all the trees. Most will never be able to shed the blinders and chains that they put upon themselves. They see Christianity as limiting and constricting and fail to grasp the incredible power and freedom it gives. It’s like watching blacks blame Whitey for all their own failings… Read more »

Compsci
Guest
Compsci

The question I would pose to our illustrious host and fellow commenters here is, “How does the ID argument figure in to our current discussions centering about White survival in an increasingly non-White world?”. Are we being diverted by delving into this matter? Perhaps I’m slow on the uptake, but heretofore I have found postings and comments from (I assume) atheists, agnostics, and devote Christians which seemingly put aside such fundamental differences and agree on the above matter. I found this quite refreshing, since the history of man is often described as one of strife based on religious division. Hate… Read more »

JR Wirth
Guest
JR Wirth

Whenever a missionary comes in to raise funds for the African mission, I tell them I believe in the Curse of Ham, so it’s pointless to raise funds for this. I really don’t, but I like watching them turn purple.

c matt
Guest
c matt

It is tangential, and it is not. Have you ever seen Force Ten from Navarrone? Great flick. Spoliers: There is a scene where the heroes go to blow up a dam to take out an enemy bridge downstream. Two of the heroes set the charges deep within the bowels of the dam, thinking they will not survive the blast and ensuing wreckage. The charges go off, and although knocked down, the two heroes survive noticing no damage to the dam. They curse the engineer who designed the charges and where to place them. On the hillside, the engineer and another… Read more »

Ris_Eruwaedhiel
Guest
Ris_Eruwaedhiel

IMO, the Bible, a book of faith and morals, not science and history, is like an inkblot Rorschach test. It can be interpreted many different ways. There are Christian warriors and Christian pacifists, Christian Communists and Christian Capitalists, Christian feminists and Christian anti-feminists, etc. Albert Schweitzer published “The Quest for the Historical Jesus” in 1906 where he pointed out that previous quests for the historical Jesus dating back to the late 18th Century changed with the times and reflected the personal proclivities of the authors. Schweitzer was also the first to propose that Jesus was an end-of the-world prophet who… Read more »

JR Wirth
Guest
JR Wirth

I know what you’re saying. I tried so hard to be an atheist at one point, but the truth is right there, staring us in the face. The way I look at the bible, God knows that we’re creatures of myth and stories. This is why Jesus spoke in parables. He took mostly Jewish myth, which contained a historical sketch of the Jewish people, and built on all of that, completing all of the signs. It was the only way. So in a way, he allowed the myth to be created by humans, and then completed the promises of the… Read more »

MikeCLT
Guest
MikeCLT

Perhaps it would be helpful to think of evolution as we think of Newtonian physics. Newton answers 99% of the questions. But we needed relativity to complete the picture.

Drake
Guest
Drake

Micro evolution versus Macro.
Micro = breeding faster-growing corn and bigger cows.
Macro = Entirely new species quickly evolving. Primates to humans / dinosaurs to birds.

Micro is easy and has been proven for centuries. Macro is impossible to explain and has never been witnessed.

Mark Taylor
Guest
Mark Taylor

Perhaps that would be useful but from what I’ve seen evolutionary biologists and their followers are incredibly sensitive to any criticism. So any indication that you find their explanation incomplete will likely be met with an accusation that you’re an anti science medieval Jesus-fag.

It’s one of the more off putting aspects, a theory that’s adherents find perfect and settled. Sort of like the global warming crowd. I don’t know, maybe evolution explains the mechanisms for the creation of all life. It’s not very important to my daily life.

james wilson
Member

Except that relativity did not complete the picture either. A box in a box in a box. Science and religion may be the same quest but with dishonest practitioners everywhere to muddy it.

TomA
Guest
TomA

Science is a never-ending process that seeks a better understanding of the world in which we live. Nothing is ever “settled.” Some aspects of our understanding are quite useful because we have a very high probability that our knowledge corresponds accurately with reality. We like to call this kind of knowledge “laws of nature” simply as a shortcut for saying high probability of being an accurate perception or conception of reality. Religion is now, and always has been, a social institution that aids in passing down wisdom from one generation to the next. That is not a trivial thing, and… Read more »

Karl McHungus
Guest
Karl McHungus

what muddies the water is that religion *was* science in olde days. and now, science has become religion (for some)!

Ryan
Guest
Ryan

The IDers should study biochemistry. It’s hard to find the best way to put this, but life, as in carbon based life mostly revolving around RNA, is an inevitable result of water, energy and the physical reality of how the elements interact with each other. A lot of scientists get this, and their usual go-to is the multiverse idea. Every conceivable set of laws of physics exists in its own universe, we by happenstance happen to live in one in which the laws of physics dictate that water+energy+chemicals equals life. IMHO God created the universe such that life would exist… Read more »

Member
Felix_Krull

A lot of scientists get this, and their usual go-to is the multiverse idea.

It is one theory among many, and a very fringe one, borderline non-scientific because there’s no way to falsify it.

IMHO God created the universe such that life would exist is a less kooky explanation.

And how was God created?

Member

And how was God created?
Oh gee Felix, never contemplated that before.

Member
Felix_Krull

Oh gee Felix, never contemplated that before.

Glad to be of help. Would you have a suggestion?

If you posit God as the Occam’s Razor of creation, you’ve just shifted the conundrum away from the real, scientifically observable world and into your hypothetical one, you have not made the problem itself less confounding.

Exile
Guest
Exile

Spot on. It’s theological can-kicking, and theologians have had to resort to some of their worst “logic” to account for it. The brutal truth is that even with our present quantum level understanding, we’re stuck with barely-informed speculations as to the “how,” and wholly uninformed guesses as to the “why,” of creation. The fallacy-ridden pretzel logic of the Scholastics on this is painful to try and wade through, worse than Marx, for all that I use them against “Prog Catholics” preaching kumbaya-Jesus when necessary.

Member

Every time I try my head hurts. I await the second coming to fill in the blanks.

c matt
Guest
c matt

Felix, God is not a hypothetical, but rather a logical necessity. The scientifically observable (i.e., empirical) world is not the sum total of reality. Science itself relies upon non-scientific meta-physical presumptions (e.g., the law of non-contradiction, law of identity, etc.).

To ask how was God created is to demonstrate you do not understand the concept of metaphysical necessity. I would commend you to Ed Feser’s explanation of the argument from contingency, which is one of the most straight forward explanations I have encountered.

Member
Felix_Krull

God is not a hypothetical, but rather a logical necessity.

Not at all. If you feel that a creator is a “logical necessity”, I could propose that, rather than a god, the universe was created by a giant, universe-building robot, and my hypothesis wouldn’t require magic.

“Logical necessity” doesn’t exculpate me from explaining where the robot came from.

c matt
Guest
c matt

We are asking/answering two different questions: (me) whether the g.u.b. robot exists, (you) how or why the robot is. If you want an answer to the second question, you are basically asking to be the mind of God. Good luck with that, even in the next life. Whether the g.u.b. robot or God exists is answered by the argument from contingency – God, a g.u.b. robot, or some non-contingent being (NCB) must exist: Contingent things exist: A contingent thing cannot be its own cause::A NCB must exist. While the how or why of the NCB is certainly interesting, it is… Read more »

Exile
Guest
Exile

Theology is the libertarianism of religion. Scholasticism is the Objectivism of religion.

Karl McHungus
Guest
Karl McHungus

you do realize that you are saying inanimate material can spontaneously become alive? now that is true faith! it is far more likely that a machine based “lifeform” would spontaneously arise, than what did come along (us).

Ryan
Guest
Ryan

I’ve never understood the metaphysical distinction between machines made out of atoms with lots of protons and machines made out of atoms without many protons. Study biochemistry, life is machinery.

Mark Taylor
Guest
Mark Taylor

“RNA, is an inevitable result of water, energy and the physical reality of how the elements interact with each other“

This is not my understanding, where are you getting this from?

Karl McHungus
Guest
Karl McHungus

Mary Shelley’s “Frankenstein”

Ryan
Guest
Ryan

At a baseline the experiments whereby you mix water energy and basic chemicals and the result is the more complex molecules that are the building blocks of macro molecules like RNA. At a more complex level the fact of how SN1 and SN2 reactions work, how the nature and structure of water perfectly facilitates them.

Exile
Guest
Exile

Intelligent design and predestination suffer from similar assumptions and flaws. Interventionist, revision-prone, high-controlling gods who determine the fate of every human effort and every breeze that blows arise from an Eastern/Orientalist mindset, not a Western/Occidental one. As skeptical as I am of deified “Progress” as we see it used today, I’m not a trad-fanatic or NRX LARPer. The Western mindset is the one that’s given us a vastly more detailed mechanical understanding of the universe, significant health and quality of life improvements and that points the way to living on other worlds in the future. This is transendence in a… Read more »

Member

That’s a really good post. I’m not a religious guy myself, but it sure seems to me that Christianity was a far more pro-civilizational religion than what has replaced it — cultural Marxism. I don’t see how it’s possible to reject the idea of natural selection and the survivorship principle, and remain a viable belief system — yet somehow the Left can make up all types of BS and the outer party never questions it. All the crazy stuff the left believes in now — are we sure it’s Darwin that stuck the knife in Christianity?

Paul
Guest
Paul

Intelligent Design? LOL, unworthy target. Not worth the time or effort.

But for a guy who produces high-quality content almost every day (more than every day if you count the podcast segments individually), we’ll give him a few mulligans.

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

To say that we can figure out the answer to the evolution/ID/??? question is a bit hubristic (by all means keep trying, I’ll hold your coat for you), but to give up and assume it is beyond our ken, that God knows and we don’t get to, is not what being human, asking the questions and looking for answers, is really all about. So here we are, stuck in the middle. Carry on.

Be prepared. If you get a good answer, it may be wildly different than your expectations.

Sean Detente
Member

I have to be honest, I’m not at all clear what you’re talking about in “occasionalism”. I mean, I’ll look it up myself, but some sources you used for the day’s blogging could provide some context, too. Probably not your fault, I just don’t grasp it.

Karl McHungus
Guest
Karl McHungus

Mr Derbyshire is a proponent of ID, I believe. Clearly evolution exists, we just don’t know how it works. We know about some things, like inherited traits etc. But we don’t know how speciation occurs, or how life began. For me, Darwin is a distraction, would love to hear exactly what he contributed by way of new knowledge. What’s interesting to me, is how viruses act as a transport mechanism, moving genes from species to species. As a S/W engineer it is pretty clear to me that DNA is a ‘program, and the amino acid pairs are ‘code’. You see… Read more »

TorontoTraveller
Guest
Karl McHungus
Guest
Karl McHungus

thanks for the link. I guess I conflated him talking about it, into him believing it.

Official Bologna Tester
Guest
Official Bologna Tester

Attention Z People! As it turns out, I’m quite the amazing fellow. With one brilliant stroke I solved the whole problem forever. Because I just invented, faith!

Official Bologna Tester
Guest
Official Bologna Tester

Matthew 16:4: “Only an evil, adulterous generation would demand a miraculous sign, but the only sign I will give them is the sign of the prophet Jonah.” Then Jesus left them and went away.” Creation Science and Archaeology that attempts to prove the Bible is historically accurate or that neo-darwinism and Christianity can be reconciled, are just make work projects for people who don’t really believe that God is a man of his word. Are these “miraculous signs” their looking for? No. But signs none the less. That’s just playing the worlds game. Are they sincere? No doubt. But sincerity… Read more »

Exile
Guest
Exile

I’m not sure this kind of belief satisfies modern thinkers in and of itself but it’s one way to declare a mutually honorable and lasting truce between religion and science. Trying to take science on in its own arena is bound to fail, just as futile and counterproductive as demanding belief in present day miracles. Love is the dangerous element in that scripture though – the primacy of love is what Pope Francis claims to lend scriptural authority to his Pozzed NuGospel. “Love over Justice” is what allowed Anthony Kennedy to kritarch us with gay marriage. Charlemagne’s Christianity was not… Read more »

Official Bologna Tester
Guest
Official Bologna Tester

Exile said: ” Our modern Aquarian interpretation of Love is being hijacked to destroy faith and hope for non-pozzed Christians. We have to push back against love.” Wow. If your talking about “The Aquarian Gospel” I haven’t thought about that kind of stuff since I was a teenager. The Fox sisters, Madem Blavatsky, Rudolf Steiner, Aleister Crowley. Man, that takes me back. When “The Aquarian Gospel” talks about love, it always sounded more like maudlin sentimentality, rather than a deep commitment to compassion forbearance and forgiveness. Anyway, like I say. I haven’t read that kind of crap in 50 years.

Range Front Fault
Guest
Range Front Fault

The message of the Vedantists and the Buddhists is to look inward and stop getting tangled up in complicated theological arguments.–Epaminondas Then there are lots of folks like me who approach this subject by not…..and stay out of the deep weeds. “A woman uses her intelligence to find reasons to support her intuition.” ― G. K. Chesterton. So my arguments are screwed to begin with. Due to lack of exposure to church Christian teachings except for Micro) a Presbyterian neighbor kid got an Attaboy Ribbon for bringing me, a heathen, to vacation Bible school, and Macro) mainstream culture. Christian culture… Read more »

Exile
Guest
Exile

They’re onto something – damn those Aryans are some awesome ancestors.

Theology is the libertarianism of religion.

Orthodoxy is superior to Roman Catholicism for its greater appreciation of mysticism and de-emphasis on temporal hierarchies and glass-faerie-castle theologies, and snake-handling hillbilly Prots are superior to Marxist Methodism and Prog Baptists because they live in their faith rather than intellectualize and LARP it.

Range Front Fault
Guest
Range Front Fault

Hi Exile! Huh? Damn, I’m getting literal as I get older.

Alter Kocker
Guest
Alter Kocker

The Earth has a natural history, recorded in the rocks. Things which happened that are beyond the scale of pre-scientific human understanding. But you can see them in the rocks. Folded-thrusts. Magnetic reversals recorded in the spreading sea-floor. Hotspots and island chains (Hawai’i). Impact craters. Speaking of which, there’s one in the Yucatan peninsual, Chicxulub. 65 mya a meteor or comet, greater than 11km diameter, slammed into the earth at 62 times the speed of sound at a 45 degree angle. Bad day for the critters on planet earth. In killing all the dinosaurs, once things settled down, it opened… Read more »

Karl McHungus
Guest
Karl McHungus

psshaw, whatever created the “hole” where the Pacific ocean is, now that was an impact!

Alter Kocker
Guest
Alter Kocker

The size of the impact is not important. It could have been volcanoes. What’s important is that a random event opened the path to human evolution.

Member

These arguments presuppose that we should have mandatory biology classes in public school and use those biology classes to attack the Christianity of the kids. There is absolutely no reason to do this. It is completely dishonest and the only reason 10th grade biology exists is to further weaken Christianity in America and Europe. You could teach a hell of a lot of biology without needing to harp on evolution. I am pretty sure this stuff just would not come up without this public school attack on Christianity. Christians use ID to defend against the harmful effects of secularism and… Read more »

Alter Kocker
Guest
Alter Kocker

Sorry, you can’t put the genie back in the bottle.

Exile
Guest
Exile

Agree. Just what I’ve said above on not driving conflict where it’s not needed and leaving the evo debate for the colleges of choice rather than public schools of compulsion. Anti-evo needs some space to either improve or die off, and the Darwinist crusade to pogrom all unbelievers reminds me far too much of the Yankee fanatics in the Civil War re: slavery.

JR Wirth
Guest
JR Wirth

I’ve always considered myself to believe in intelligent design, but not in a God who’s always fine tuning things. All laws of nature were set in motion at the beginning of the universe. All life came from one cell, containing every permutation that life allows, that was placed in the ocean through divine will. At some point, half assed monkeys developed big enough brains to look at their reflections in the water and say “what the hell am I doing here?” – And that was Adam and Eve. People gravitate towards “free agency” because they want to be in control.… Read more »

Bruce
Guest
Bruce

“A popular one now, for example, is that there is not enough time for natural selection to produce enough gene mutations to explain the fossil record.”

Geneticist JC Sanford of Cornell believes that mutations + selection cannot even maintain the genome (subject to “Genetic Entropy” the title of his book) let alone add more information to the genome to drive speciation. He believes we (and I assume other species) were created perfect by God and are decaying (I assume with some fortuitous mutations and “fine-tuning” built into the design).

Red Forman
Guest
Red Forman

In the future, all right-wingers will be 7-day young earth creationists. I say this based on demographic trends. Rightly or wrongly, these debates won’t be occurring much longer.

Here’s an exercise: everyone participating in this discussion starts his post with the number of children he has.

Bruce
Guest
Bruce

8 children (6 boys, 2 girls, ages 18 to 8 months). 44 years old, my wife wants more children and seems to have the fertility and reproductive health to pull it off.

R7 Rocket
Guest
R7 Rocket

@Red Forman

Based on present demographic trends, we will be Muslims… or members of some other religion that put women in their damned place in much the same way the Taliban does.

Bruce
Guest
Bruce

Don’t count the Mormons out – geographically they might control vast areas of the Western US – who knows?

Range Front Fault
Guest
Range Front Fault

Bingo! That’s why I’m coat-tailing on the Mormons. That’s why I moved to Utah. Back at EBMUD in the Bay Area, the best, kindest and Smartest IT guy who I’d call on graveyard shift to get the SCADA system up post crash/Mormon! Best Supervisor of Orinda Treatment Plant, fair, smart and knowledgeable and kind, a leader of men and women and I’d fight in a foxhole for that man/Mormon! Utah has an unemployment rate of 2.8% and people from out of state are filling up the Salt Lake Corridor to enjoy job growth and the hip urban lifestyle. Polygamy Porter… Read more »

A.B Prosper
Guest
A.B Prosper

This is probably true. They will also probably live at a vastly lower level of technology since the highest fertility group is Amish and our tech base is eroding

Also this doesn’t apply in Europe where even their Right, while it can be natal (FN’s Marine La Pen for example has three children) are seldom very religious even in places like France

Ireland for example went from devout Catholic to secular in a generation or so.

Exile
Guest
Exile

People’s Square (Striker) at TRS had a recent (8/9) long (4hr+) podcast with Irish Nationalist Keith Wood – good guy, interesting takes. He lays heavy blame for the wreck of Irish culture on Woke Capital. The Irish gov’t let Google, Faceberg et al turn Ireland into a tax-haven Port Royale for global pirate ships far too big for Ireland to influence, much less police, and gave them a stranglehold on their national economy. They moved cheap labor in, Irish kids moved out, Dublin became the world’s 3rd highest-rent city and any attempt by the Irish to resist globoshlomo was met… Read more »

A.B Prosper
Guest
A.B Prosper

Very much so. If there is to be an organized future, capital will have rigid controls on every facet of it and the entire economic structure will have to be forced away from finance to a steady state or something similar Harkets? Yes. Private ownership and production? Yes. Financialization? Hell no. This will be brutally difficult to plan and implement though especially when dealing with the nature of modernity where out technology essentially destroys good wages for productive work forcing people into finance and service BS Mind you this is not entirely a new problem , Medieval Guilds existed in… Read more »

Sleepy
Member
Sleepy

Wow Z, last week the “Jew thing,” this week God and the origin of life on earth. I’m not sure what the cause is, but you are like a boy with stick looking for another hornet’s nest poke!

I’m going to mostly pass on this one, but I will take exception to one thing you said:

“The Sphynx cat exists and we know why.”

We know “how,” but I don’t think we know “why”…. 😉

Member

All of this stuff falls under the umbrella of we really don’t know for sure. We can logically look at data, review history, study the current state of our existence. We hopefully make conclusions that are anchored in the reality of what we see. Usually in conjunction with what makes sense and what doesn’t. Free will and the not knowing for sure works within the framework of our thinking, our existence. If we knew everything it would not be much of a life. Discovery becomes knowledge. Knowledge should then become wisdom. The best part of our existence are the discoveries… Read more »

Bruce
Guest
Bruce

More on latest state of evolutionary theory in this book review:
https://orthosphere.wordpress.com/2019/08/11/evolution-2-0-by-perry-marshall/

Steve
Guest
Steve

Would someone fill in what appears to be a missing part of the syllogism, please?

“The Sphynx cat exists and we know why. The ID’ers would argue that it is an example of design, but that presupposes the breeders were either directed by God or compelled by God to create the breed. ”

It looks to me like it’s saying:

A. Sphynx cat exists.
B. Sphynx cats were designed.
Therefore:
C. God intervened to, uh, convince people to design them?

–Steph

Drake
Guest
Drake

The Species Problem. Points out some of the giant holes in current evolutionary theory.
https://www.newgeology.us/presentation32.html

ConservativeFred
Guest
ConservativeFred

The Z Man has been hanging out with the Derb.

Severian
Guest

I feel about ID the way an early Russian critic of Lenin’s felt about Marx: Marxists, he said, are like astronomers, who are mathematically certain that an eclipse will happen… but then form a Party and start murdering people, to make sure it does. I prefer the metaphor of billiard balls on a table (apologies to David Hume) — there’s no way of predicting where all the balls will come to rest after the break, even though we understand every aspect of the physics involved.

Karl McHungus
Guest
Karl McHungus

that is a self-negating statement.

HamburgerToday
Guest
HamburgerToday

The weakest part of Darwin’s argument (and those that follow him) is his claim about the origin of species through the process of natural selection. The problem is that natural selection can be observed and, in fact, performed by humans but, at no time, has natural selection resulted in a new species *unless you fudge the notion of ‘species’*. The entire current argument regarding ‘origin of species through the process of natural selection’ plus ‘random mutation’ (neo-evolutionary theory) doesn’t hinge on ‘random mutation’ or ‘natural selection’ *but what constitutes a species*. Since the notion ‘species’ itself is a human invention,… Read more »

Karl McHungus
Guest
Karl McHungus

One thing to keep in mind is that all organisms that share the same set of amino acid based DNA, are related. The concept of ‘species’ is arbitrary and fluid. Evolution occurs at the gene level, and genes can be spread by viruses and other mechanisms.

Homer Hinkley
Member

I love it when political analysts inevitably wade into scientific waters and stir up the mud. That’s when when we find out if the gas bags really know anything or not. The Zman has stirred up the mud, and the amateurs are jumping in to get dirty with him. Ostensibly, the Zman’s perambulations on Intelligent Design are meant to expose the contradictions between ID and traditional Christianity, and to expose the misunderstandings of ID as they relate to the meaning of randomness and natural selection. I’ll leave the theology to others, but I will comment on the ideas of natural… Read more »

R7 Rocket
Guest
R7 Rocket

@Homer Hinkley

You’re talking about abiogenesis, something that’s separate from natural selection.

Exile
Guest
Exile

The point is that ID doesn’t “offer us anything intelligent about the true nature of how we got here.” It’s anti-Darwinism dressed up in a cassock with gaudy pseudo-scientific costume jewelry. It doesn’t have any provable claims. It’s an anti-theory which relies on some legitimate questions about Darwin’s theory to bait-and-switch that flawed theory with that of an intelligent designer. Actual ID doesn’t even limit itself to claiming an inherent/emergent pattern rather than “intelligent” design. Claiming ID isn’t scientific is not the same thing as “proving X variant of Darwinian evolution” but that’s the tire you’re trying to necklace him… Read more »

Homer Hinkley
Member

Exile, as I explained in my response to Zman, you too have made the mistake of thinking that I’m defending ID. You’ve been conditioned to believe that anything remotely sounding like a legitimate question to Darwinism is actually an “anti-theory” used to “bait-and-switch that flawed theory with that of an intelligent designer.” That’s nonsense. The explicit point of my post was that before you can even talk about Darwinism, you have to explain the origins of abiotic chemistry that produce the building blocks of life. This is a legitimate area of scientific research, where the answers are unknown. In fact,… Read more »

Member

Too big a bite, Zman; the comments show you choking on it. Too many ways to beat it about like a pixelated piñata and watch the innards dribble out. No claim of, “You all did not understand ME,” is going to cut it as the topics have been wrassled with by folk with bigger feet than you or I. As another poster wrote above, this sort of topic is best avoided until we have our enthostate or what-have-you. Plenty of time then to stab identitarian allies in the neck. ============== As for the guts of the post, I am not… Read more »

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

The conversations come from watching the innards dribbling out of the pixilated piñata. A good blog host puts things out there that stir the pot. If there is one obvious correct answer, the discussion is not going to go anywhere. I like the mixing up of the topics, even though I don’t feel like I have much to add to the religious or JQ convos. They seem to quickly head on over to Monty Python skit territory.

Karl McHungus
Guest
Karl McHungus

there are worse places for a discussion to head to 😛

Karl McHungus
Guest
Karl McHungus

evolution proponents are wwwaaaayyyyyy down on my list of things to worry about. oops, they just fell off entirely!

PapayaSF
Guest
PapayaSF

The core problem with ID is that it just moves the problem one step back. It says the universe is too complex to have just occurred, so it must have a Designer. “But then, who designed the Designer?” “Nobody designed Him, He just occurred.” Sorry, that’s not very convincing, for reasons that should be obvious.

For insight into how evolution (and much more) works by a combination of simple rules and random chance, I recommend the book The Laws of the Game: How The Principles of Nature Govern Chance by Manfred Eigen and Ruthild Winkler.

Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
Guest
Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman

Read Yockey (Imperium) on “Darwinism.”

Spud Boy
Guest
Spud Boy

“This is a designer burning army men with a magnifying glass and blowing up the model train trestle.”

Well said Zman.

I’ve not read the comments yet, but I’m sure you’ll be flamed for this piece.

onezeno
Guest

The problem that both sides miss is that there aren’t nearly enough genes to do what they claim genes do. During the Human Genome Project the number kept getting reduced, and now sits at around 19,000. It’s small enough a number itself, then we are told that humans are all 99.8% similar or whatever, so then the entire spectrum of inherited human variance must come from a handful of genes. It’s not feasible. So you have both sides bickering about how the genes got there when the genes can’t possibly do what they assume. Something else is at play in… Read more »

Karl McHungus
Guest
Karl McHungus

i think the 3B base pairs is a better metric than counting genes.

onezeno
Guest

What is the biological significance of a base pair?

Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
Guest
Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman

“Now, it should be pointed out that this understanding of God is outside Christian tradition and perhaps even anti-Christian.” This is breathtakingly false. Observably false. Is the ZMan drunk? Did his evil twin write this? “Intelligent Design is occasionalism.” Oh, puh-leeze. An “-ism,” ZMan? From YOU? Unworthy. “It simply means we have no good answer understanding the natural world.” You can’t say “good,” but the point is well taken nevertheless. A bit of common sense. “A designer that is endlessly tinkering with his creation is not a designer with foresight.” Well, as far as you know, which is not at… Read more »

Bart
Guest
Bart

Above my pay grade and I don’t really care, but if I were concerned with the theological implications of Intelligent Design, I would explore this Thomist philosopher’s musings. https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/search?q=Intelligent+design Feser appears to lean towards Zman’s outlook of ID being outside Christian tradition. “The Thomist’s problem with the arguments of Paley and ID theory is not – NOT (See that? It says “not”) – that they are merely probabilistic, or that they don’t get you all the way to the God of classical theism. There’s nothing wrong with that. The problem with these arguments is rather that they don’t get you… Read more »

Joash
Guest
Joash

“A certain type of self-described Christian finds this appealing. They assume the designer is God, as they have an understanding of God that is much more personal. They believe God is highly involved in the granular details of human existence. Now, it should be pointed out that this understanding of God is outside Christian tradition and perhaps even anti-Christian”. Have you actually read the Bible Z? The whole thing is stuffed full of God boasting He made everything… and massive records of all His interventions into human affairs…. and claims to specifically track and punish everything done by any human… Read more »

Unknownsailor
Guest
Unknownsailor

It is simultaneously possible to doubt both ID AND macro evolution AT THE SAME TIME.

Macro evolution fails the time span test for mutation probability, this is not in doubt. This is not to say that ID is automatically the alternative answer. The correct alternative answer is “this cannot be it, just like that can’t be it, so i don’t know, let’s keep looking for a hypothesis that fits the facts.”

Member

I didn’t notice this, but I think he is talking from knowledge
https://www.claremont.org/crb/article/giving-up-darwin/

Donald Cavaioli
Member

the ID supporters really should give the omphalos hypothesis another look.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omphalos_hypothesis

It cannot be logically refuted or falisfied.

Senator Brundlefly
Guest
Senator Brundlefly

“They assume the designer is God, as they have an understanding of God that is much more personal. They believe God is highly involved in the granular details of human existence.” Pardon my ignorance as I’m certainly no Biblical scholar, but in what way is this outside of the Christian tradition? Don’t Christians believe in a God who banished Adam, flooded the world, spoke to Moses through a bush, razed down Sodom and Gomorrah (salting a lady who looked at it), and sent Jesus as a personal emissary? Does it not sound like some pretty granular involvement in these instances?… Read more »