Medieval Jewish Policy

The standard narrative, with regards to relations between Christians and Jews, is one of constant conflict. The Jews have been subjected to various forms of repression, ranging from marginalization to genocide. The underlying assumption is that the Christian majority was either motivated by religious fanaticism or ignorant bigotry. Of course, the events during World War II loom large in this understanding. The Germans are just assumed to have gone insane and followed an anti-Semitic madman.

That’s what makes the book Early Medieval Jewish Policy in Western Europe such an interesting read. Instead of the modern practice of working backwards to force history into the current narrative, it is a review of the polices toward the Jews, in the centuries following the fall of the Western Roman Empire. It’s an old book, published in 1977, by a now retired scholar of the period. It’s also a short book, just 140 pages. The style and brevity makes it a good introduction to the period for the casual reader.

The book starts with a review of Jewish policy under the Visigoths, who ruled what is now Western France and most of what is now Spain. Both Gaul and Iberia had large Jewish populations by the end of the Roman Empire. The Breviary of Alaric was a collection of Roman laws that applied to the Hispano-Roman and Gallo-Roman population, living under Visigoth rule. It was within this body of laws that official policy regarding the Jews was established in the Visigoth kingdom.

Under the Visigoths, the Jews had a great deal of autonomy. They maintained their own courts, were permitted to own slaves and conduct trade within the kingdom. More important, the Jews were rich and powerful, so they played a large role in the internal politics of the kingdom. The main area of conflict was over the Jewish habit of proselytizing to the Christians as well as the pagans. The Church would tolerate the Jews converting pagans, but not the converting of Christians.

That’s the most interesting aspect of the book. Throughout the early medieval period, the Jewish populations in the former Western Roman Empire were endlessly proselytizing to the Christian populations. This was not just under the Visigoths in the early Christian period. This continued through the Carolingian period, despite very strong objections from the Church. Even the Church, however, was forced to overlook these violations of the law, as the Jews had a lot of power.

If one were to search for a starting point of anti-Jewish sentiment in the West, it would not date to the time of Christ, but to the medieval period. Jews not only competed with the Church politically and culturally, they were very aggressive in their approach to Christians. For example, in the Carolingian period, Jews widely circulated the Toledot Yeshu, which is an alternative biography of Jesus. It describes Jesus as an illegitimate child, who practiced magic, was an adulterer, and died a shameful death.

The Church, of course, was not happy about this behavior, but lacked the power to do much about it, other than train better priests. That’s another interesting aspect of the period. Jews and Christians regulars celebrated feats together and Christians tended to prefer the Jewish sermons to that offered by the Church. Many Bishops also had good relations with the Jews in their area. In other words, into the Middle Ages, there was not much in the way of antisemitism, at least not as we understand it.

It was these twin realities that drove the development of anti-Jewish policy in the Church during this period. Many important churchman, individually and collectively, not only feared the proselytizing of the Jews, but worried about the fact Judaism was very attractive to both pagans and Christians. It was in this period that institutional opposition to Judaism developed and evolved, despite the fact that the secular authorities were pro-Jewish in their policies. Antisemitism was a reaction to this.

Another aspect to all of this is the fact that Jews used to be aggressive proselytizers, working hard to convert pagans and Christians. Today, the opposite is true. While anyone can become a Jew, that’s like saying anyone can become a physicist. It is technically true, but conversion is not common. Jewish law requires the rabbi to try three times to discourage the convert. This policy may have been a response to the conflicts with the Church over the conversion of Christians.

Probably the most surprising thing in the book is just how pro-Jewish most secular rulers were in the early medieval period. Charlemagne and his son Louis the Pious were extremely favorable to the Jews in their domains. They actively encouraged Jews to immigrate into their lands and gave them special privileges to conduct trade. They also had many Jews serving in administrative roles, holding power over Christians. The Jews were treated better than the Church in many cases.

The reality of the early medieval period is that the secular authorities maintained a very tenuous grip on their holdings. The king relied upon the local landowners and community leaders to maintain control. In many cases, those wealthy and powerful people were Jews within large Jewish communities. As a result, the Church was often the least influential institution. In many cases, the local bishop relied upon Jewish support to maintain his position. The Jews had a lot of power.

Probably the most telling point in this regard is the fact that the most successful monarchs of the period all had pro-Jewish polices. Charlemagne, Theodoric the Great and Gregory the Great pursued pro-Jewish polices. The Jews were literate, wealthy and maintained well-organized, long-standing contacts with Jewish communities throughout the West and East. As such, they were a powerful ally. In return for Jewish support, successful Christian rulers protected Jewish interests.

As much as this reality contradicts the current narrative, it also contradicts many anti-Semitic narratives as well. For example, it is popular with modern anti-Semites to claim the Jews worked with the Muslims in conquering Christian Spain. In reality, the Jews were willing to work with whoever looked like a winner. Jews also worked with Christians against the Muslims and sided with the Viking raiders when they sacked Bordeaux. They also worked with the Franks against the Vikings.

One final bit of interest is it seems that the beginning of Jewish hatred for the Catholic Church began in this period. This hatred turns up today in modern Zionism. In Yoram Hazony’s book, The Virtue of Nationalism, he repeatedly claims that Catholicism was a form of empire, which he condemns. It’s a strange tick, given that the Catholic Church holds little influence in the modern world. It was the Church, however, that managed to reduce Jewish power in the West, starting in the medieval period.

The book does not address this issue, but the fact that Church policy was separate, often at odds with official policy, in the kingdoms of the early medieval period, made it possible for Jews to carve out special privileges. Once Church policy became entangled with official policy, this was no longer possible. Jews were then marginalized and isolated, in order to prevent them from influencing the secular authorities and proselytizing to the Christians. The Catholic Church was bad for Jews.


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The Babe
The Babe
Member
4 years ago

But the thing is, none of this matters. All that matters today is that the people leading the genocide of whites through mass immigration, systematically denigrating our culture, and destroying our legal and political systems, are jews.

Cultivating a strong and healthy anti-Semitism is an absolute necessity for the survival of white people. Racism, of which anti-Semitism is one type, is the immune system of a people. By lobbying against it, the Zman is attacking the immune system of our people, and hastening our destruction. What happened to you, Zman?

ronehjr
ronehjr
Reply to  thezman
4 years ago

I understand we need to be pro us, but would that include being anti those who are trying to weaken us. It seems like there is room for both.

Wolf Barney
Wolf Barney
Reply to  ronehjr
4 years ago

I was thinking similar thoughts. I agree that it’s necessary to promote a positive identity for our group, but we know what that brings in response, and one certain group is always (Every. Single. Time.) there to swat us down.

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  thezman
4 years ago

Wherever we have a problem, I find Jews working to make it worse. Whites don’t do this to blacks – it’s wholly fictitious. Tennessee Coates can’t cite NYT-level articles by Whites crowing about Black replacement. He has to reach 50 years back to find anything to credibly bitch about. We can’t spend 15 plugged-in minutes without getting slapped with a gefilte fish. NAJALT x 100, but there’s a major segment of that tribe that needs to be brought to heel, by their own or by us, since their own won’t do it. It’s the same problem as jihadis vs. “vast… Read more »

Rod1963
Rod1963
Reply to  thezman
4 years ago

Well it’s pretty damn hard to develop a positive group identity of any kind when the Tribe is there to smash us into the ground. The tribe has made it clear they don’t like us and want us dead and gone. They either say this directly among their own kind or use 3rd world proxies in MSM to get that message out or by the policies they support. And any pro-Western movement they are apart of, they invariably sabotage at some point by screaming “anti-semite” to friendly ears in the MSM. My own policy is to simply recognize them as… Read more »

MemeWarVet
MemeWarVet
Reply to  thezman
4 years ago

Z, I can’t say I agree on “negative identities always end in failure.”

I’d go so far as to say it’s worked out pretty well for the People Who Shall Dwell Alone. Their whole identity is bound up in being the leaders of “not Whitey.”

ronehjr
ronehjr
Reply to  MemeWarVet
4 years ago

That is observably not true. They say they are chosen by the deity whose name shall not be spoken. Sounds like a fairly positive identity to me.

Mark Taylor
Mark Taylor
Reply to  thezman
4 years ago

How is Jewish criticism any different than criticizing blacks?

Would you consider the currently widespread holocaust obsessed Jews as establishing a negative identity?

A.B Prosper
A.B Prosper
Reply to  thezman
4 years ago

Think “Hereditary Enemy.” as vs a negative identity. Certain groups will be and always have been at odds, “had conflicts of interest” as it were and acknowledging that can be part of a strong healthy outlook It’s highly doubtful the West will go NDSAP or full Socialist at any point so an escalation to crazy town is unlikely and the animosity can be kept in check and used for social capital iff desired/ This of course presumes the West is Christian in its culture . It may not be and may outside the US and Eastern Europe revert to a… Read more »

BTP
Member
Reply to  The Babe
4 years ago

I think there should be two sides to the sword: to love the things that help us and hate those that hurt us. You need both, I think

Reply to  The Babe
4 years ago

Unfortunately, about 1/3 of whites are fully onboard with the anti-white agenda that so many Jews propound. Yes, we need to realistically assess the Jews, but we would also do well to understand and address the pathologies within our own ranks. The Jews can’t do it alone.

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Ostei Kozelskii
4 years ago

Failing to realistically assess the Jews is one of our pathologies. Manson couldn’t do it alone – he didn’t even go in the house. Thank God he still died in jail for it.

Lars
Lars
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

If we believe that women have moral agency equal to that of men, then the women who physically committed the crime should have been punished more severely than Manson. If women lack this moral agency, then they have no business voting, participating in government, or otherwise exercising authority over men in any sphere, especially the church and the miilitary.

The feminist movement is one of many sinister weapons wielded by jews to fracture White families.

Member
4 years ago

When it comes to the Jews I know one thing for certain. I am not a Jew. If anything, after self identifying as a person of the dissident right I am a White Anglo Saxon American. It’s OK to be a White Anglo Saxon American. Live with me in peace and prosperity. History tells us what we need to know. If we can get the real truth of it all. We are not the same. We are not equal. They are not like me. That’s OK too.

Nathan
Nathan
4 years ago

ZMan’s critique of “negative identity” is framed against Black identity, how we need a positive identity in contrast. I don’t recall his ever noticing how much of Jewish identity is also negative. Being Jewish means always being on the edge of another pogrom. This persecution complex increases Jewish cohesiveness and helps them maintain a separate identity. This serves two purposes. It prevents assimilation, which I can respect to a degree. The problem is that it also justifies doing anything to the goyim to prevent another genocide. “Oy vey, we had to slaughter millions of goyim or there would have been… Read more »

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
Reply to  Nathan
4 years ago

“Why are so many Jews shite people and why do so many dissident right people have a weird fetish for them?”

Because the J3w versus White conflict is the most consequential conflict of the last 100 years, yet most people are blinded to it by the media/academia. We’ve lost almost every battle.

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Nathan
4 years ago

TRS’s “Third Rail” touched on this last week, two of the podcasters are going to do a separate piece on it in the near future. Particularly for modern Jews whose foundational myth begins and ends with the Holocaust (95% – yes 95% – polled recently in Europe said the Holocaust is very important to their identity), they are bonded together by opposition to the hostile Others, particularly Christians (see Michael Medved’s piece in Commentary’s symposium on why Jews vote liberal years back – American Jewish identity is primarily anti-Christian – Medved got Shoah’d hard for that one, much “shh –… Read more »

Larry
Larry
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

There is no connection between OT Judaism and Rabbinical Judaism which formed in 70 AD after the destruction of Jerusalem as punishment for Deicide.

Rabbinical Judaism formed as opposition to the Catholic Church established by Jesus and it remains that to this day. It is the Synagogue of Satan.

Rabbinical Judaism has no priests, temple or worship. It is an arguing society intended to keep the Jews in the rabbinical camp

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Larry
4 years ago

Talmudic rabbinical Judaism has legs even when most American Jews are barely religious and many are Dawkins-style aggressive atheists. In function if not in theory, Jews worship their race as God. There are lessons for us to learn there (counter-Semitism, I know) in fashioning a stronger belief system based on White identity that can withstand modernity the same way Jewish identity, if not exoteric religious practice, has.

Larry
Larry
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

The war crimes committed against the Jews (and them alone, of course) has aught to do with Holocaust which were the worship types taught to Hs people by God for His people in preparing them to accept Jesus as messiah. There were four different types of Holocausts – sacrifice in worship of the the sovereignty of God; sacrifice of propitiation, to appease His anger irritated by our countless sins; sacrifice of Impetration, asking for His bounty; sacrifice of thanksgiving (eucharist) thanking Him for His bounty and it was Jesus and His pluperfect self sacrifice which alone is worthy of the… Read more »

Rogeru
Rogeru
Reply to  Larry
4 years ago

Or did the jews sacrifice their own for power? It was jews who coined the phrase wasn’t it?

Larry
Larry
Reply to  Rogeru
4 years ago

I think the Jews use the war crimes committed against them (and them alone) as a way to advance their supremacy – “We have unjustly suffered more than any other people/race in history”

MemeWarVet
MemeWarVet
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

>>>The Holocaust is a phantasmagoric update and amplification of the Exodus with totatalitarian tentacle porn (masturbation machines, gas chambers, ovens, cattle cars).<<<

Don’t forget the pedal-powered brain-bashing machines, electric floors, Bear/Eagle pits, and (my personal fav) the Roller Coaster of Death.

The Last Stand
The Last Stand
Reply to  MemeWarVet
4 years ago

Damn, roller coaster of death and masturbation machines?

One of the rumors I have heard about Epstein’s private island is that it had a dental chair in which girls were strapped in and had their braces removed. Perhaps their own proclivities lead them to ascribe the same behavior to others.

MemeWarVet
MemeWarVet
Reply to  thezman
4 years ago

>>>The holocaust stuff has been a huge negative for Jewish identity<<<

It was the excuse they needed to dispossess us of our lands, our heritage, and ultimately our lives, so I can’t say I agree.

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  MemeWarVet
4 years ago

In the short term they’re winning, but Whitey’s an opponent with advantages they can’t match – competitive IQ levels coupled with a sense of transcendence, aesthetics and creativity that the materialist shopkeepers and scientists can’t match, vast numbers as well as superior social charm and captivating shiksas. In the arena of social advantage alone, the only reason Jews have been able to manipulate other races to use as cultural and demographic weapons against us is that we’ve been too honorable and/or unaware to fight them on that basis. As Z often notes, Blacks literally can’t live without us. No race… Read more »

Exile
Exile
Member
4 years ago

The 109 historic expulsions and self-deportations of Jews suggest either a common pattern of Jewish behavior or a common pattern of non-Jewish behavior. Blaming the Jews requires that we accept that a tiny diaspora group of insular, in-marrying cultural and religious fanatics behaved in similar ways that angered diverse host populations. Blaming the goyim requires that we blame the other 99% of the human race. Social policy and research is based on patterns and averages, not exceptions and outliers. The Edict of Alhambra, one of the 109 above, tossed the Jews out of Spain because of their converso shapeshifting into… Read more »

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

When I look back at my education in history classes, I am amazed at my credulous acceptance of the teaching that J3ws were often treated awfully by Europeans, due to the evil of the Europeans, without ever asking, “Wait, is it possible that there are two sides to this story?”

MemeWarVet
MemeWarVet
Reply to  LineInTheSand
4 years ago

Kind of like the question of “what could these people have done in the 1920’s that pissed Germans off enough for what (allegedly) happened in the 30’s and 40’s to take place?”

3g4me
3g4me
Reply to  MemeWarVet
4 years ago

Meme: For those who’ve often thought the same, here’s a link I saved from Vox ‘s blog a number of years ago, that provides a brief but compelling summation of some important numbers: WWII a Jewish Creation

Penitent Man
Penitent Man
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

Exile, I dont actually disagree with your theory above, but I’ll play Devil’s advocate for a moment. What non-Christian group was the medieval to Renaissance Church actually sympathetic with? Even the Cathars, a strange heretical sect of quasi-Christianity, were eradicated. Did all of these groups carry the same come kick me then kick me out gene? Shape-shifting and infiltration, skills I will admit are refined in the repertoire of the Jewish people en toto, were not unheard on the chaos of pre-Reconquista and Reconquista Spain. The great El Cid fought for Muslim warlords against fellow Spaniard Christians at times and… Read more »

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Penitent Man
4 years ago

None of those errors is mutally exclusive – I can see a number of mutually reinforcing social maladjustments stemming from the common root of Chosen-ness. A sense of superiority, particularly moral and intellectual superiority, holier and smarter than thou, lack of empathy and unwillingness to cut losses and compromise with lesser competitors. A constellation of adaptive and maladaptive behaviors that on balance ends up in incompatibility. While the Christian Churches were all intolerant, they co-existed with Jews and Muslims where circumstances necessitated it. For example, no one doubts the Templars devoutness and fanatacism, but they co-existed often peacefully with both… Read more »

Rogeru
Rogeru
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

“converso shapeshifting into the higher echelons of Spanish Christian power ”

I think this might be a key concept. The Jewish mind solves problems sideways instead of head on. I think western man finds this duplicity offensive or dishonorable on some level and that’s why jews don’t get the respect other opponents do. Just loathing.

I think I’m going to start referring to conservatism inc as conversos.

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Rogeru
4 years ago

It’s part of our Western legacy – I point out elsewhere that Romans scorned the Greeks for being foxes rather than lions. While Romans borrowed much from the Greeks, the Empire still ended up splitting on Greco-Roman cultural-political lines centuries after Rome conquered Greece. There was an oil-water aspect to their mix.

Matt
Matt
4 years ago

it is popular with modern anti-Semites to claim the Jews worked with the Muslims in conquering Christian Spain. In reality, the Jews were willing to work with whoever looked like a winner. Jews also worked with Christians against the Muslims and sided with the Viking raiders when they sacked Bordeaux. They also worked with the Franks against the Vikings.

This doesn’t make them look any better. In fact, it confirms that they cannot be trusted.

Rod1963
Rod1963
Reply to  Matt
4 years ago

Indeed they fly under the flag of the Jolly Roger by all accounts. It would be foolish for whites to have deals or alliances with them given their history of betrayals.

Rogeru
Rogeru
4 years ago

I’ve always viewed jews is simply another competing nation with their own priorities, cultural values and goals. If its in their interest to undermine the host nation they will. They will also lobby for benefits that give them an advantage. Politics is a zero sum game, somebody’s got to be on top. I read a short treatise from the 16th or 17th century outlining the history of conflict between jews and Christians in England drawing from court records. I can’t remember what it was called or where I found it online, but it showed a back and forth between the… Read more »

Glenfilthie
Glenfilthie
Member
Reply to  Rogeru
4 years ago

Me too. Then, as now, all tribal conflicts were all about money and power. If Jews put money in your pocket you will be amenable to them, if they threaten or work against you, you will reciprocate. I no longer accept historical accounts at face value; it’s safest nowadays to assume all the authors all have at least some bias. My historical take on the Jews is that when they work within existing power structures of their hosts and play ball… they do well. When they don’t, they get the punt or they get cleansed… same as any other tribe.… Read more »

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
Reply to  Glenfilthie
4 years ago

John, give me a reality check. What “better enemies to worry about” do we have?

Glenfilthie
Glenfilthie
Member
Reply to  LineInTheSand
4 years ago

Liberals, for a start…

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
Reply to  Glenfilthie
4 years ago

I appreciate your answer and it illustrates an ongoing debate in my mind. What is more powerful at a deep psychological level, a political ideology, like liberalism or conservatism, or tribalism?

Certainly both are powerful, but if an ideologue has to choose between his ideology and his tribe, for example being colorblind or favoring his tribesman, what is the most common outcome? Does a non-white ever choose an ideology that disadvantages his tribe over what is good for his tribe?

These are difficult questions and people of good faith can disagree.

MemeWarVet
MemeWarVet
Reply to  LineInTheSand
4 years ago

The Tribe is the final boss in Satan’s video game. SJW’s, Feminists, Jihadists…they’re the underbosses you have to clear on the lower levels.

Glenfilthie
Glenfilthie
Member
Reply to  LineInTheSand
4 years ago

“What is more powerful at a deep psychological level, a political ideology, like liberalism or conservatism, or tribalism?” I personally believe that both can be trumped by self interest. This is at the heart of the JQ today – on a national level, are these guys a liability or an asset? As our esteemed blog host has pointed out, historically they have been both to their host countries. Time and time again, they’ve proven that they can be very powerful friends and enemies. To counter Exile, for example – Judaism gave rise to the most powerful religion in the history… Read more »

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Glenfilthie
4 years ago

Jews “gave” us Christianity by crucifying Christ and persecuting his disciples. The Talmud of their modern rabbis says he’s drowning in excrement in Hell. According to very much Jewish GOP’er Michael Medved, American Jewish identity today is primarily anti-Christian.

Jews gave the atom bomb to Stalin.

Jewish technical and industrial espionage against the US includes stealing their fissile nuclear material and the Jonathan Pollard case which resulted in serious enough damage to US intel and interests that AIPAC needed 30 years to spring him.

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
Reply to  Glenfilthie
4 years ago

John, thanks for the thoughtful reply. I will consider your words.

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Glenfilthie
4 years ago

Just based on voting patterns alone, there’s a 70% overlap in Jew & Liberal. And voting GOP is hardly a 100% indicator of conservatism – tell me the neocons who run almost every GOP media site don’t value their tribe more than their politics (cough, NeverTrump, cough).

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Glenfilthie
4 years ago

Name one of those “better enemies” and I’ll name 3 Jews who’re providing aid & comfort to them if not outright scripting their moves.

bilejones
Member
4 years ago

“…As much as this reality contradicts the current narrative, it also contradicts many anti-Semitic narratives as well. For example, it is popular with modern anti-Semites to claim the Jews worked with the Muslims in conquering Christian Spain. In reality, the Jews were willing to work with whoever looked like a winner”.

Logical error here:
The third sentence – in confirming the second, belies the first.: that the Jews DID work with the Muslims is the “anti-Semitic narrative” is confirmed not contradicted.

Also, how is the fact “that the Jews worked with the Muslims” Anti-Semitic?

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  thezman
4 years ago

I’ve heard very little of the Muslim collaborationist angle with respect to Spain. Jews were used by the Ottomans and later Balkan Russian and Eastern European rulers as administrators and tax farmers. Check out Andrew Joyce’s stuff at TOO on this, particularly in the Pale of Settlement. Similar to England, the local kulaks and petty lords eventually got fed up with usury and special royal privileges and the usual irrational aritrary superstitious anti Semitic expulsions occurred.

3g4me
3g4me
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

In addition to (and as part of) being administrators and tax farmers, Jews often were given sole license to run bars/saloons in Europe. They ensured the locals paid through the nose for a brief break from their miserable lives and simultaneously kept them drunk and in debt. Usurious loans were peddled along with beer.

Drake
Drake
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

Jews were definitely valued administrators and accounts for Muslim rulers of Spain. It caused a lot of resentment and a backlash when the Reconquista finally concluded. Muslim rulers in other areas gladly took them in.

Murray
Murray
Reply to  thezman
4 years ago

If anything, it illustrates another antisemitic canard: that Jews will take up whatever tools are ready at hand to advance their own interests, over and above those of other affected peoples.

To be fair, this is true of almost every other ethnic group apart from whites; it’s just that the Jews tend to be better at it than anyone else.

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Murray
4 years ago

A canard is an unfounded rumor or narrative. You can either claim Jews don’t do this or that they exemplify it. You can’t do both simply b/c “anti-Semitic.” Pick one.

Murray
Murray
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

I was using “antiisemitic canard” ironically, Exile.

Ris_Eruwaedhiel
Ris_Eruwaedhiel
Reply to  Murray
4 years ago

I have no objection to Jews acting in their self-interest – like everyone here, I wish that Whites would, too. What aggravates me is their phony concern for humanity, tikkun olam (“repair the world”), which just happens to serve Jewish interests and satisfy their lust for vengeance against the White goyim. Blaming Christian persecution of Jews on religious bigotry, economic envy or jealousy of supposed moral superiority (snort) willfully ignores the fact that at least sometimes White Christians had/have a legitimate gripe with them.

Ursula
Ursula
Reply to  thezman
4 years ago

“Anti-Semites claim Jews are purpose built to undermine host populations. They use the Muslim conquests as an example. The reality is, Jews were as much the host populations in Iberia as the Christians.” Dear Z Man, I’m a dummy compared to you and pretty much everyone else here so please just bear with me. I’m not sure I’d say they’re “purpose built to undermine host populations,” so much as their ways/actions have emerged from their religion, which is focused on the Old Testament *laws*. They pride themselves in violating the spirit of the laws while not technically violating the law.… Read more »

Cordell
Cordell
Reply to  bilejones
4 years ago

Saying “the Jews worked with the Muslims” is not antisemitic unless used as evidence of an innate Jewish tendency to disloyalty which exceeds the ordinary human tendency to disloyalty in comparable circumstances.

Larry
Larry
Reply to  Cordell
4 years ago

! These. 2; 14 For you, brethren, are become followers of the churches of God which are in Judea, in Christ Jesus: for you also have suffered the same things from your own countrymen, even as they have from the Jews, 14 You took for your model, brethren, the churches of God which are assembled in Judaea in the name of Christ Jesus. You were treated by your own fellow countrymen as those churches were treated by the Jews, 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and the prophets, and have persecuted us, and please not God, and are adversaries… Read more »

Yves Vannes
Yves Vannes
Member
4 years ago

So they ingratiate themselves with corrupt princes and churchmen so they can do the dirty work for an elite of fleecing the general population by whatever means they find most effective. Sounds familiar. The Jewish descriptions of their ancient neighbors and their decrepitudes is more than likely an inversion. Cicero found them unpatriotic, sacrilegious, backward, and alien. Tacitus found them to be…”perpetual corrupters, luring people away from their religions, their families, and their patriotic duties on purpose, as though Jews had a singular devotion to destroying all civilizations but their own”. You can find similar descriptions in the late empire… Read more »

Rod1963
Rod1963
Reply to  Yves Vannes
4 years ago

it is not a irrational impulse. the very fact that Jews will destroy any white who brings up the Jewish domination of education, banking, media,politics and dominating our culture.

The only irrational people are those who bullshit themselves that this dominance isn’t real and a mortal threat to whites and Western civilization.

Now this isn’t to say we should be obsessed with this tyrannical gang, we shouldn’t, we just need to be aware of the power they wield and that they are our enemy and comport ourselves accordingly.

Epaminondas
Member
4 years ago

“In reality, the Jews were willing to work with whoever looked like a winner.”

Faithless bastards. I don’t need religion to dislike them.

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Epaminondas
4 years ago

In ancient times, Romans looked down on Greeks for having entirely situational ethics, and Greeks looked down on Jews for the same. The Greek vs. Jew riots during the Second Punic War in Alexandria were epic.

Official Bologna Tester
Official Bologna Tester
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

Exile said: “In ancient times, Romans looked down on Greeks for having entirely situational ethics…” The satirist Juvenal hated the greeks. Check this out. Start at 10:01
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG8OAXMbfYw

JR Wirth
JR Wirth
4 years ago

Judaism forbids usury with other Jews, but it’s perfectly kosher between Jews and non-Jews. Jews were able to easily capture medieval money markets, built the best lending houses, and lent to each other at much lower rates. Christians had this taboo on usury all together and believed that charity was the best approach. It got so bad that all interest was forbidden by the church in 1179. How interesting that anyone who taxed the church was ex-communicated at the same time. Jewish power resulted from Christian misinterpretation of the bible. Christianity gradually reformed this misinterpretation. To this day Christian charity… Read more »

JR Wirth
JR Wirth
Reply to  JR Wirth
4 years ago

One can even say our un-policed border and benefits for illegals and their children is an outcropping unique to Christian charity. Although our western societies became post-Christian long ago, they still contain the social construct of Christianity, where one is expected to take in complete strangers like stray cats, including people who would murder you in your sleep and rape your daughter.

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  JR Wirth
4 years ago

Most of the theology cited to mandate infinity dindus is (((OT.))) The NT cites can be resolved by reminding the audience that Joseph always planned to and eventually did take his family back home.

TheLastStand
TheLastStand
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

OT also commands them to stone transgenders and homosexuals. Funny how they overlook those parts.

shadowbass
shadowbass
4 years ago

The Jewish question always brings me back to what I notice is the same problem history has had with American Indians. Once historically, they were “savages” who needed to be civilized, now the are saintly people who lived in matriarchal societies, who had a “special” relationship with “nature” and lived in harmony with the enviroment, bla, bla, bla,… Instead of excepting them as a hugely diverse group of peoples with often very different lifestyles, we lump everyone together, and by doing this we miss a lot. Aztecs built sophisticated cites of stone… and mass executed hundreds of people day, ripping… Read more »

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
Reply to  shadowbass
4 years ago

“Jewish people varied a lot too, depending on where they lived. Some were prone to greed and dual loyalties, others just ran their trades.”

What, would you guess, are the relative proportions of these sub-groups? What if we confine our analysis to the members in each sub-group who are influential and powerful?

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  shadowbass
4 years ago

Social policy is based on patterns and averages, not exceptions and outliers. Every social policy question presumes a NAxALT, but unless you can demonstrate that the group in consideration is so diverse it can’t reasonably be called a group, the exceptions are irrelevant to the problems being considered. It’s a persistent taxonomical issue, but it’s also used as a deflection from inconvenient truths about accurately defined groups.

In the case of Jews, particularly those in Current Year America, we’ve accurately described the group and the issues.

Corn
Corn
4 years ago

Great post and very informative. I had no idea Judaism was once encouraging of proselytization.

James_OMeara
Member
Reply to  Corn
4 years ago

“Read your Bible!” as the preachers say. “”Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.” Matt. 23:15

Murray
Murray
Reply to  James_OMeara
4 years ago

Well, sure. But it runs counter to the narrative the Jews tell about their history in Europe, which is of a marginalized minority in perpetual danger of being pogrommed by ignorant Christians for no reason at all.

Moran ya Simba
Moran ya Simba
4 years ago

I did not know that Jews once proselytized aggressively in Europe, in fact I thought they largely did not. But that certainly explains why many Ashkenazi Jews look so European, genetically they probably largely are. Also makes me wonder if hybrid invigoration, between European and ME Jewish stock, could play a causal role in their high IQ, in addition to the other explanations about more or less active selection for it.

Ris_Eruwaedhiel
Ris_Eruwaedhiel
Reply to  Moran ya Simba
4 years ago

Jews also engaged in the forced conversions of pagans and Christians:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_conversion

Jews played a prominent role in the Soviet Union before WWII when millions of people were executed, exiled, imprisoned or starved to death:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

In the 1970s, after they were pushed out of power in the Soviet Union, they had the chutzpah to whine about “persecution” and the US let them in.

Larry
Larry
4 years ago

In the sixth century, Pope Saint Gregory the Great codified the modus vivendi of The Catholic Church with the Jews – Sicut Judaies non – in which he taught that no man could harm the Jews or disturb their services but that they not be allowed to ascend to places of authority in Christendom or to corrupt Christian morals. I am not surprised that a Messias-Denier could not be trusted to write an accurate portrayal of The Church especially when he is writing about heretics and you are no help when you identify heretics as The Church. What is your… Read more »

Larry
Larry
Reply to  thezman
4 years ago

I am asking what your definition of “The Church ” is

That is not hair-splitting.

What his your definition of The Church?

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Larry
4 years ago

He’s talking about the main-line doctrine Roman Catholic Church, to re-state the obvious. Retreating into “no true Catholic” theological equivocations to rationalize the eternal perfection of the Church on all things is one of the most damaging and discrediting thing Catholics do, and it’s emptying your pews. When you find yourself obsessing over definitions like this, you’re turning faith into libertarian sperg-bait. No one can argue with someone in good faith when they do this, and no one wants to bother. They just ignore you after a few tries. If you try to engage someone’s arguments substantively, you’ll both have… Read more »

Larry
Larry
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

What are you talking about.

I retreated into nothing.

I asked him what his definition of The Church is as it seems quite apparent that he uses “The Church” to describe what any local community of Christians did or didn’t do.

He will not answer what his definition of “The Church” is because he prolly thinks “The Church” refers to something other than what it is.

When on refuses to define what it is they are really talking about, I get suspicious

Member
4 years ago

That’s an interesting piece, Z. I hope you’ll write more like it. I do have a question, though. The medieval period is 1000 years, roughly from 500 AD to 1500 AD. When, specifically, did the Catholic Church gain enough power and influence with the kings and nobility that it was able to act against Jews? Also, did the author address anti-Jewish pogroms, such as occurred in Strasbourg in 1349?

Penitent Man
Penitent Man
Reply to  thezman
4 years ago

The increase in Church power (post Carolingian) may also coincide with popularizing of sending second and third sons of nobility into the clergy. Prior to that some of the most famous or popular Christian leaders came from ignoble backgrounds. By the early Renaissance, it was not uncommon to see a young nobleman exit seminary and immediately step onto a bishopric slot. Further, by late medieval period the ability of nobles to enter into the trading/Mercantile class was more acceptable and even desirable. You see this occur particularly in the Italian states and Mediterranean coastal areas. Both of these factors placed… Read more »

Lorenzo
Lorenzo
Reply to  thezman
4 years ago

Rather like the British who used their Empire as a means to get younger sons out of the way and less likely to cause domestic mischief.

Reply to  thezman
4 years ago

Thanks. That’s about what I expected.

Sir Balin
Sir Balin
Reply to  Ostei Kozelskii
4 years ago

Supposedly the high Middle Ages, 1000-1200 AD, the church and states became more powerful and cracked down on the Jews for various reasons, probably mostly to get out of debt, as happened in England. At that time, most ashkenazi Jews migrated to Eastern Europe, hence the populations there. Gilad atzomon said that the real reason the Jews went east was because they were needed to replace the middle class which had been decimated by the mongols.

Penitent Man
Penitent Man
Reply to  Sir Balin
4 years ago

Sir Balin, That is interesting. I never considered the vacuum created by the Mongols in eastern Europe. The Russian boyars were nearly eradicated by the hordes and further west, the creme of the Slavic nobility and proto-prussian powers were decimated. There is even some genetic trace of the mongols as far west as Switzerland and you can still see that genetic heritage in the epicanthic folds above many Russians’ eyes. To point, that was contemporary with the late Crusades and the complete souring of the Western and Central European relationship with European Jewry. Why wouldn’t they migrate to a natural… Read more »

Sir Balin
Sir Balin
Reply to  Penitent Man
4 years ago

I read that in Being and Time, Unreferenced. Perhaps it is merely a tactic of Atzmon, you know how all narratives are distorted into a tale of grievance and victim hood, instead he changes the emphasis to white victimhood for a change!

Penitent Man
Penitent Man
Reply to  Sir Balin
4 years ago

Well, if it is a competition for victimhood the Mongols provide many top runners, making the Jewish holocaust just a holocaust notable mention. East asians and Southwest Asian muslims score massive victimhood points. Luckily for Europe, the Khan was informed that Europe held nothing of value and then shortly after contact the Mongols descended into internal dynastic warfare. If you compare the size of the Mongol detachment that wrecked eastern Europe to a full scale horde, the western armies were only matched against a Mongol reconaisance in force. Either way, I hadn’t ever looked at that as a possible explanation… Read more »

Monty James
4 years ago

Fascinating. Certainly not the story we usually get.

Moran ya Simba
Moran ya Simba
Reply to  Monty James
4 years ago

Nope, sure isn’t.

3g4me
3g4me
Reply to  Monty James
4 years ago

But neither is it the whole story. In most countries where the rulers favored the Jews for their money and connections and power base, they used them to squeeze the local populace through taxes, loans, exclusive commodity franchises, etc. The Jews were game because the host population was an alien people to them. Read about how/why the Jews were forced out of England – it was local pressure (and from the people, not just the local officials and landowners) which forced the king’s hand. The Jews’ absence allowed England to develop its own middle and merchant class and culture developed… Read more »

Nathaniel Bell
Nathaniel Bell
4 years ago

I’m going to nerd out for a bit here. I’ve had insufficient coffee so bear in mind this is an imperfect analogy. In the Dune series, the spacing guild was seen as all powerful, as they were the only institution capable of FTL travel, and thus controlled all commerce in the imperium. They were widely regarded as being above reproach and having the power to make or break anyone, even the emperor. Paul Mua’Dib realized that they could not survive on their own, and furthermore they lacked the stones to grasp the sword themselves and rule, have their glorious day… Read more »

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Nathaniel Bell
4 years ago

Can’t pass on Dune bait.

— Spoiler Alert for those who haven’t read past “God Emperor” ————————————————

Rebecca. Bene Gesserit. Frank was one of those woke guys with a soft/blind spot for the tenacious Chosen.

“But of course…” (((some))) have taken offense at Herbert’s preservation of the People who Shall Dwell Alone through another 5000 years of history – check out https://jewishreviewofbooks.com/articles/1633/jews-of-dune/

Herbert made a giant circumcision the three-eon God Emperor of the known universe and kept their actual religion around, but still couldn’t keep these people happy.

They have to go back.

david
david
4 years ago

Geneticists Gregory Cochran and Razib Khan have noted that ashkenazi dna is 80% old roman dna. Razib has publicized that ashkenazi markers dont exist before the middle ages, so the entire ethnic group commonly calling themselves ashkenazi was formed when fleeing roman elites took jewish women as wives and concubines, just after western rome was sacked. This population flourished and adopted jewish customs From then on, you were only jewish if your mother was jewish, how convenient. So the theory goes.

Whiskey
Whiskey
4 years ago

Missing the main point. Literacy and taxes. Dark Ages rulers illiterate themselves as their warriors had two choices for scribes and clerks. Jews or the Church. The Church demanded more resources mostly land in the post monetary era after the fall of Rome. Jews only protection. Growth of urban lay literacy in places like England made kicking out Jews and taking over the loan books a profitable policy for kings Here in the US White men are no longer needed. Chen and Kumar can replace us. White men are the new Jews absent wide deep war where Chen and Kumar… Read more »

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
Reply to  Whiskey
4 years ago

Every comment that I’ve ever seen from Whiskey on any website going back a decade that includes criticism of the J3ws involves him deflecting. Oy vey.

Lorenzo
Lorenzo
Reply to  LineInTheSand
4 years ago

Whiskey is not Jew obsessed like some here, I’d put it that way.

Official Bologna Tester
Official Bologna Tester
Reply to  Whiskey
4 years ago

Whiskey said: “Missing the main point. Literacy and taxes. Dark Ages rulers illiterate themselves as their warriors had two choices for scribes and clerks. Jews or the Church. The Church demanded more resources mostly land in the post monetary era after the fall of Rome. Jews only protection. Like I said. Business is business.

Larry
Larry
4 years ago

There is a lamentable habit of citing some action by some Christians and ascribing those actions to “The Church.”

How are a bunch off heretics (Arians) considered “The Church?”

James_OMeara
Member
Reply to  Larry
4 years ago

“How are a bunch off heretics (Arians) considered “The Church?””

Ah, the “No True Christian” argument.

BTP
Member
Reply to  James_OMeara
4 years ago

Except in this particular case, they really were not Christians.

BTP
Member
Reply to  Larry
4 years ago

Good point. The rulers in the West during the early Medieval period were almost all Arians. The conversion of Clovis was such a big deal specifically because all the others (Burgundy in France, Visigoths in Spain and France, Ostrogoths in Italy) were Arian. That Clotilde, Catholic princess of Arian Burgundians by some unlikely process, converted Clovis to Catholicism was widely seen as some sort of miracle. Which it was. This was a non-trivial distinction, Catholic vs. Arian, as the treatment of Clovis’ great-granddaughter, Ingund, by her Arian Visigoth mother-in-law shows. Attempting to get the girl to be re-baptized as Arian,… Read more »

BTP
Member
Reply to  thezman
4 years ago

Speaking just of the Visigoths, it seems reasonable to wonder. The Breviary of Alaric, which defines the Jewish rights to separate law courts and so on, was an Arian Visigoth document. As I understand, the Visigoths themselves had a different law from the Catholic Hispano-Romans over whom they ruled. The Visigoth conversion to Catholicism was 589, officially, and the entire kingdom was obliterated 120 years later by the Muslim invasion. The Jews famously opened the gates of Toledo to the Muslim armies, an act which was totally justified by the Visigothic mistreatment of the Jews, I’m told. In any case,… Read more »

Ris_Eruwaedhiel
Ris_Eruwaedhiel
Reply to  BTP
4 years ago

Originally, the Visigoths sought to retain their ethnic distinctiveness and independence from the Roman Pope by remaining Arian while ruling over Catholic Hispano-Romanos. In 587, King Reccared converted to Catholicism and his subjects followed, whether they wanted to or not, and the Visigoth version of the Cloud People ruling class assimilated with their Dirt People subjects.

CAPT S
CAPT S
Reply to  Larry
4 years ago

I agree w/ the premise of your question. As a Christian I often find myself diametrically opposed to establishment “church”, primarily because church professionals tend to frequently leave the biblical reservation in search of progressive acceptance. And this has been a problem throughout Christian history, and down through the ages of Jewish history back to Abraham and Lot. “Nothing new under the sun” comes to mind. The mark of the Christian is motive, and it doesn’t entail power, alliances, or politics. Yet the mark of “The Church” has often been (and remains) focused on those very things. Christians need to… Read more »

Larry
Larry
Reply to  CAPT S
4 years ago

Being diametrically opposed to the Church is to be diametrically opposed to Jesus who established His Church (matt 16:18)

I am still looking for someone to define “The Church”

One could begin by saying, for instance, that it is The Kingdom of God on earth and all outside it are part of the Kingdom of Satan but I am not likely to see that advanced as a part of any definition of what The Church is

Thorsted
Thorsted
4 years ago

By converting to judaism europeans could also avoid the church rules of marriage

bilejones
Member
Reply to  thezman
4 years ago

“both sides tries hard”

But the Jews’ stones were presumably harder,

Cockpit
Cockpit
Reply to  thezman
4 years ago

Mark Brahmin’s site The Apollonian Transmission discusses in great depth what he refers as Racial Esoteric Moralization, which is Jewish myth building and propaganda to win European breeding stock.

james wilson
james wilson
Member
Reply to  thezman
4 years ago

On the other hand, since Ashkenazi Jews are 50% Italian, French, and German, in that order, the men may have been afforded a greater reproductive freedom.

Official Bologna Tester
Official Bologna Tester
Reply to  james wilson
4 years ago

james wilson said “…the men may have been afforded a greater reproductive freedom.” Oh yah! I’ll take a dubble scoop.

Benjamin Weissman
Benjamin Weissman
Reply to  thezman
4 years ago

That’s factually untrue. Jewish courts have been forbidden by the High Court (Sanhedrin) from instituting executions or even lashes since the destruction of the Temple. That includes for such women.

Ris_Eruwaedhiel
Ris_Eruwaedhiel
Reply to  Benjamin Weissman
4 years ago

Vigilante justice perhaps?

Marko
Marko
4 years ago

…And how does the Orthodox Church fit into all of this?

Reply to  Marko
4 years ago

My guess is the author didn’t talk much about Byzantium and the other national Orthodox churches. Most medievalists specialize in medieval Western Europe.

Range Front Fault
Range Front Fault
4 years ago

The Black Death hit around 1350 and killed 1/3 of the European population.

How did that change the Church-Jews power and cultural dynamic?

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Range Front Fault
4 years ago

Happy Saturday, RFF. I just Googled “judaism europe black death impact population church” – first two pages are pogroms all the way down. It would be nice to find sources that simply stated things like what the Jewish population losses were, if physical separation or other Mosaic law customs worsened or mitigated Jewish losses, how the economic sectors of finance and trade were impacted, if the increased leverage of lower population labor effected Jewish businesses, etc but the minute you put the J-word into Google, you get firehosed with annudah Shoah. It would take a deliberate painstaking effort to cherry… Read more »

Range Front Fault
Range Front Fault
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

Pleasure to hear from you. Are you creek fishing? Good for you! May you have fish abundance for dinner tonight. You can multi-task! I did a little ferreting around and found ala The Great Courses: “The feudal society had begun to change by 1340. One was the rise of a merchant class, which was able to develop in part because of a population boom that occurred between 1000 and 1300. Over the course of 3 centuries, the population of Europe doubled from approx. 75 M to around 150 M, due to a few influences one of which was…….HA! …a period… Read more »

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Range Front Fault
4 years ago

I love Great Courses – have the Great Minds on my Audible right now – 40+ hours for a $12 credit was worth buying the WaPo snakes a couple of lattes. Thanks for the info. Urbanization puts a strain on our Dunbar Number social capacity and overall psyches. Selects for lower empathy groups better ability to compartmentalize & abstract thinking. Large cities will always be “Jewy” – in that sense Nathan Cofnas was right, but I think his critique of MacDonald’s Critique, so to speak, downplayed extreme nepotism and other distasteful aspects of Judaic identity. The “blood and soil” guys… Read more »

Lorenzo
Lorenzo
Reply to  Range Front Fault
4 years ago

RFF, read Belgian historian Henri Pirenne’s short classic “Medieval Cities” which describes commercial growth in the period you mention. People didn’t leave the land because it was scarce, they left it because there was more opportunity in the growing cities. “Stadtluft macht Frei” was the slogan of the time. Agricultural labor got scarce because of the migration. Merchants got rich and built churches, not synagogues. Jews were not prominent in development during that era. Not everything commercial is Jewish. The first big time European traders were Vikings.

We shouldn’t spend all our time playing cherchez le Juif.

Range Front Fault
Range Front Fault
Reply to  Lorenzo
4 years ago

I’m not wed to my narrative. Good input….Thank You.

Rogeru
Rogeru
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

“I’d rather stare at this creek and pray for trout.”

Wise man.

Official Bologna Tester
Official Bologna Tester
4 years ago

thezman said: “That’s what makes the book Early Medieval Jewish Policy in Western Europe such an interesting read. Instead of the modern practice of working backwards to force history into the current narrative, it is a review of the polices toward the Jews, in the centuries following the fall of the Western Roman Empire.” Interesting post. I’m sure professor bachrach’s book is a real eye-opener. For me. It’s perfectly understandable that the secular authorities woud use a more practical approach in dealing with the jews. Business is business. And it’s also perfectly understandable, that when the Church gained the upper… Read more »

BTP
Member
4 years ago

Interesting observations. St. Gregory of Tours mentions Jews occasionally in his History. Couple interesting interactions recorded. One is of a wicked bishop who, among other atrocities, buried a priest alive in an attempt to steal his property. St. Gregory records that this bishop was, “on familiar terms with the Jews and was much influenced by them, not for their conversion, which ought to be the preoccupation of a priest, but because he bought goods from them. He was easily flattered: and they knew how to keep in his god books…” This is from after A.D. 500 or so. He records… Read more »

Penitent Man
Penitent Man
Reply to  BTP
4 years ago

OT: The progressive or atheist penchant for pointing out the brutality of early Christians from Constantine’s era to the late Renaissance. It is their “Aha, gotcha hypocrite!” argument that makes me want to stop getting stuble-length haircuts so I’d have hair to pull out. It is hard for us to conceptualize early Medieval Church high clergy. We picture the almost effeminate purse-lipped, pencil-necked bishop ready to parse through theological obscurities… more of a modern take. Many of the early medieval Church higher ups were little more than well connected lords with close connections to the regional warlord… with probably no… Read more »

Tom
Tom
4 years ago

Z man wants to get medieval on the Jews.

Benjamin Weissman
Benjamin Weissman
4 years ago

I would, instead of saying Jews fought for the side they thought would win, instead say that they fought for the side that would be most advantageous. For example, in the Battle of Haifa during the First Crusade, Jews fought against the Crusader siege in spite of almost certain victory on the part of the Christians. However, during the Reconquista, Jews would fight for whomever was nicer to Jews at any given time and allowed them to bear arms, and that included Christians (as you note), including when such Christians were bound to lose.

Rogeru
Rogeru
Reply to  Benjamin Weissman
4 years ago

They are their own nation and pursue their own interests; “is it good for the jews?” is their guiding principle. Can’t fault them for that, but they have to be viewed as a foreign nation and treated as such.

Benjamin Weissman
Benjamin Weissman
Reply to  Rogeru
4 years ago

Well, sort of. Orthodox Judaism teaches conservative values for all of mankind and that one should pray for the government of the host nations; some rabbis go as far as to say one should serve in their armies, to uphold the honor of God. But yes, it also believes that we are separate. I think the modern phenomenon of secular Jews and “fellow white people”ism is entirely separate from what has happened throughout history because that simply is not what the Jewish nation has ever stood for.

Joe Six Pack
Joe Six Pack
Reply to  Benjamin Weissman
4 years ago

Benjamin, my concern, as a WASP, is that Jewish people very much look after each other. Of course, that can be said for any number of ethnic groups that are a minority. But, while very many Jewish people look like White people, they will still favor their own over a WASP. Everyone expects Blacks to look after Blacks, and Chinese to look after Chinese, but when Jewish people appear White, there’s some bit of subterfuge going on where only the Jewish people know what the score is. This fanaticism with looking out for each other is, perhaps, what has lead… Read more »

Alzaebo
Alzaebo
4 years ago

Another masterwork in miniature.
Kudos on finding a lost map coursing between Scylla and Charybdis.
So much to be examined here, hat tip to the readers!

Lolth
Lolth
4 years ago

Did Zman think the book was worth reading?

There are many peculiar contradictions in the historical record. For instance, they go on and on about how the jews were driven out of spain, but one of the enlightenment reforms in the early 1700s was that jews no longer had to wear yellow hats to identify themselves. So there must have been an existing, recognized Jewish population in spain. How?

vxxc💂🏻‍♂️😉
4 years ago

Thank you, adding that book to 2Do pile. Z

TomA
TomA
4 years ago

It took a while, but Homo sapiens ascended to the top of the organic pyramid, developed agriculture, and evolved from hunter-gatherer to civilized man. Various cohorts within the species evolved unique adaptations to local environment; some physical, some social/cultural. The diversity of religions is simply the evolution of what “worked” in any particular place. Into this cauldron of this religious diversity, fitness selection played it’s role and left it’s mark. What persists is what works.

Larry
Larry
Reply to  TomA
4 years ago

Religion mens “bond with God” and it was God who instituted religion and there has ever one been one true religion -the religion of Jesus Christ – and the OT is one long preparation for the incarnation of Jesus Christ and His Church, and the OT revelation is revealed very slowly and in the NT it is reveled as Jesus Himself. The only difference in the one religion is that n the OT the faithful had far less revealed to them then do the NT faithful The Bond with God began with Adam and Eve and then increased to include… Read more »

Mark Matis
Mark Matis
4 years ago

Do note this was BEFORE the tribe’s work with Lenin and Stalin to help them break those 50 million eggs. But most of those were only Goyim anyway…

Official Bologna Tester
Official Bologna Tester
4 years ago

Think about this. What if there is an ultra secret organization that has been in existence for god knows how many thousands of years. It was they who inspired man to build Civilization. The leadership of this organisation are beyond brilliant. Cunning, subtle and ruthless. Without the slightest thought of mercy or compassion. They have convinced all of humanity that is we who are in charge of planet earth when if fact, nothing could be further from the truth. From the very beginning they have been guiding, moving, manipulating and influencing our every decision. Everything humans have ever built was… Read more »

JR Wirth
JR Wirth
Reply to  Official Bologna Tester
4 years ago

What does free masonry have to do this this?…………

Official Bologna Tester
Official Bologna Tester
Reply to  JR Wirth
4 years ago

JR Wirth said: ” What does free masonry have to do this this?…………” The free masons are a wholly owned subsidiary of Amazon.com. Nothing going on there.

Sir Balin
Sir Balin
Reply to  Official Bologna Tester
4 years ago

Everything would suggest they are rather inept

Official Bologna Tester
Official Bologna Tester
Reply to  Sir Balin
4 years ago

Sir Balin said: ” Everything would suggest they are rather inept.”
That’s what they want you to think. Sorry, there is no escape.

Doo dad
Member
4 years ago

Jews are 1.14% of the US population. If so few can subvert so many perhaps that many deserves it for being so weak and stupid. Just sayin’ Oh, and all hail to the master cat herder who got all those Jews to do it.

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
Reply to  Doo dad
4 years ago

Yes we we were subverted and we deserve it, but what to do next?

Official Bologna Tester
Official Bologna Tester
Reply to  LineInTheSand
4 years ago

LineInTheSand said: ” Yes we were subverted and we deserve it, but what to do next?” Folks on this site constantly talk about the smart fraction. But most don’t seem, at least to me, to connect that with the lightly skinned. If the universe holds a steady course, around 20% of the people on this site will be smart enough to figure it out. The rest will spend the remainder of their short miserable lives, toiling in obscurity for a rich evil Jew.

Lorenzo
Lorenzo
4 years ago

“Probably the most telling point in this regard is the fact that the most successful monarchs of the period all had pro-Jewish polices.”

Maybe cooperating with the smartest people is a better policy than trying to suppress them.

A thought, anyway.

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
Reply to  Lorenzo
4 years ago

Until they overthrow you because they see you as belonging to a competing tribe.

Lorenzo
Lorenzo
Reply to  LineInTheSand
4 years ago

So you think they’re actively trying to overthrow the gentiles?

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
Reply to  Lorenzo
4 years ago

They played crucial roles in the 1964 immigration act, the founding of the NAACP, and the removal of Christianity from the public space, for example.

Lorenzo
Lorenzo
Reply to  LineInTheSand
4 years ago

So did ever other left-leaning demographic.

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
Reply to  Lorenzo
4 years ago

Lorenzo, your answer is clearly true. I wonder if the “left-leaning demographic” whites and j3ws should be treated as a single block, or are their motivations fundamentally different.

Maybe you’re right, all liberals are the same, but I can’t help but notice that different liberal sub-groups appear to have different motivations and end-goals.

Lorenzo
Lorenzo
Reply to  LineInTheSand
4 years ago

I think the left groups have the same goal: take power over everyone. Looking at the current anti-white agitation, I’d guess their idea is that white people, males anyway, are the last impediment to their success. My suggestion is to adopt Zman’s idea of positive identity rather than a negative one. The people with the JQ fixation spend their energy defining themselves as Un-Jews. It makes no points with persuadable normies.

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
Reply to  Lorenzo
4 years ago

I agree that many groups have the same goal of overthrowing traditional white male culture, but how will those groups fracture after their victory? Perhaps those fractures are relevant in our current analysis.

Secondly, what is our positive identity?

Lorenzo
Lorenzo
Reply to  LineInTheSand
4 years ago

Positive identity: The people responsible for what’s best in Western society, governance and culture, plus the greatest mass prosperity and material comfort in human history.

The left is trying hard to make people forget that, but there’s plenty of very visible and undeniable evidence that the left is wrong.

Lars
Lars
Reply to  Lorenzo
4 years ago

“The people with the JQ fixation spend their energy defining themselves as Un-Jews.” It makes no points with persuadable normies.” Since birth we have been force-fed jew-scripted lies, propaganda, and gas-lighting intended to dispossess us of our legacy, erase our ethno-racial identity, and criminalize White advocacy. Modern Christians and conservatives practically worship jews, do their bidding, and prioritize jewish interests over those of White children. This is the “JQ fixation” that needs to stop. From our side, Identifying the enemy, who seeks our extinction, studying his strengths and weaknesses, and endeavoring to correct our own weakness and to maximize our… Read more »

MemeWarVet
MemeWarVet
Reply to  Lorenzo
4 years ago

>>>So you think they’re actively trying to overthrow the gentiles?<<<

This is pretty much one of the foundational statements of the Dissident Right, yes.

Lorenzo
Lorenzo
Reply to  MemeWarVet
4 years ago

If that is a fundamental tenet of the dissident right, normies will lump the DR with the Bad Mustache Man and the left will whoop up the connection so that nobody ever forgets it. Once you’ve gone down the JQ rabbit hole, you’re out of business with the normal people you need to persuade.

Blaming the Jews has been the consolation of every loser–Muslims included–for a thousand years

I’d swear that a false flagger planted that one.

3g4me
3g4me
Reply to  Lorenzo
4 years ago

Lorenzo – if all you’ve taken from all the thoughtful, reasoned, and informed comments up to this point here today is that it merely amounts to an implied irrational “blaming the Jews,” then I think perhaps the problem one of your perception only.

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Lorenzo
4 years ago

We need to give normies a new normal. The idea that “losers blame Jews for their own problems” is a Jewish cope. Race realists have been hearing the same thing about muh rayciss for decades, but the reality remains – 13 do 50, 1 do 109.

Lars
Lars
Reply to  Lorenzo
4 years ago

“… they’re actively trying to overthrow…”

They already have.

Assuming that your question is sincere, that you are White, and that you care about a future for White children, you need, like most of us here, to get deadly serious about securing our very existence as a distinct race.

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Lorenzo
4 years ago

109 communities tried.

What’s more likely – that none of them came up with this cooperation strategy b/c dumb haters, or that there’s a problem with “cooperating with the smartest people” you aren’t taking into account?

Lorenzo
Lorenzo
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

If it’s option 2, what’s your plan to deal with the pronkem?

Lorenzo
Lorenzo
Reply to  Lorenzo
4 years ago

“Problem”

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Lorenzo
4 years ago

Step 1 – help other people notice there’s a problem. Step 2 -https://www.counter-currents.com/2014/06/the-slow-cleanse/ Not saying this is what you’re doing, Lorenzo, but as a relevant point for others, when dealing with these issues, JQ’ers should be prepared to deal with debate-ending strategies. One of these is to get you to state your 100 point soup-to-nuts plan for solving the JQ, then doing the Alinsky shuffle on your specific points. Greg Johnson’s plan is a good way to address that tactic. The point of the strategy from the anti-Noticing side is to get you into the weeds on details and deflect… Read more »

Lorenzo
Lorenzo
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

It’s the implicit details that are guaranteed to chase persuadable normies away.

Lorenzo
Lorenzo
Reply to  Lorenzo
4 years ago

“Slow cleanse”. That concept is so offputting that it might as well have come from a false flagger.

Jaysus wept

ronehjr
ronehjr
Reply to  Lorenzo
4 years ago

This is one of those ‘things change” concepts. More White people are becoming aware of the animus jews have for us. This may or may not reach a tipping point. If it does, as it has before, things will change.

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Lorenzo
4 years ago

There’s no more reasonable, civilized and humane way to express or approach the problem of multiculturalism. If someone is too “nice” to demand that uninvited guests stop trashing the house and leave, I don’t know how to help them. They can choose to help us or they can share tissues with Jaysus. It’s that simple.

Dr. Mabuse
Dr. Mabuse
4 years ago

Is it going to be Jew-stuff all the time around here now? I’m really not interested, and I’ll gladly make room for those who are if that’s the case.

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Dr. Mabuse
4 years ago

We spent the entire week on other topics. Signalling for Z-Man to “toe the line – no J talk or else” isn’t fair to the other readers/listeners. If you’re demanding a heckler’s veto on what we can discuss, it’s not appreciated.

Dr. Mabuse
Dr. Mabuse
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

I’m not “demanding” anything. I’m asking a question about the future direction of this blog based on recent discussions, and I’m stating where my own interests lie, in what I consider a pretty open and above-board fashion. Whether it’s explicitly stated in the title or first line, a great number of posts in the last month have swerved into Jew-stuff, and this is not something I wish to read or discuss. If that’s going to be a focus of conversation from now on, I will adjust my reading habits accordingly.

Lorenzo
Lorenzo
Reply to  Dr. Mabuse
4 years ago

I have a slightly different take. The Zman has a lot of knowledge, sound reflections on what he knows and a clear writing style. His podcasts are models of what podcasts should be. I’d like to refer his site to persuadable normies I know. Unfortunately, when the topics and comments get all Jewy as they are recently trending, it makes me look like a crackpot for recommending him. I still read him myself, but the Jooooo emphasis turns off other potential readers. Of course I’m happy for him to run the place as he sees fit, but the JQ stuff… Read more »

Minder
Minder
Reply to  Lorenzo
4 years ago

Made the same point recently in person to the ZMan. Didn’t seem he agreed with my premise or conclusion. While I continue to read his material, I no longer can recommend him to others.

Maus
Maus
Reply to  Dr. Mabuse
4 years ago

Agreed Doc. This emphasis on the JQ seems to have coincided with the recent push for shekels (pun intended). While the readership may be up, the commentariat has changed. Others may not share my opinion, but polymaths and Renaissance men are simply more interesting than obsessive kranks. I’ll just note that commenters whose insights I value, e.g. Lineman, seem to have disappeared or greatly reduced their commentary. Bitching about the relative perfidiousness of Jews is not going to lead Our Thing to solutions for the culture war.

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Maus
4 years ago

This comes off more as George Will-esque tone policing than as any legitimate concern with the level of discourse. The topic of the day is for Z to decide, not a self-appointed League of Concerned Gentlemen Scholars. This week we “obsessively kranked” over Nassim Taleb on IQ, the fake religion of anti-racism, intelligent design, monetary policy and an entirely J-free podcast where most of the comment page was about vacation and Woke Capital. How much more diverse do we need to get to meet the “Renaissance man/polymath” standard of approval? If you don’t like the J-talk, fine, but kindly just… Read more »

Maus
Maus
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

You, sir, (Exile) are the paradigmatic example of the quantity-over-quality, quick-with-ad hominems jackass who has recently infested the comments. I DGAF whether you approve of my tone or consider me a snob. I will continue to read Zman’s articles and listen to his podcasts, no matter what topic he chooses; but if the comments continue to deteriorate with contributions such as yours, it will be with considerably less profit and enjoyment. Sadly, I rather doubt you will STFU.

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Maus
4 years ago

You started this by big-leaguing us. Stop crying out as you strike us. We’re not hijacking threads, we’re addressing the topics the host gives us.

MemeWarVet
MemeWarVet
Reply to  Maus
4 years ago

Failure to admit we have a problem is what’s gotten us to the sorry state we are in now.

If you want to go talk about “Muh Freedumb” and post pictures of your half-Aztec grandchildren, I suggest the Facebook comments section for Breitbart.

Dr. Mabuse
Dr. Mabuse
Reply to  MemeWarVet
4 years ago

I beg your pardon? What grandchildren would those be? The ones produced by my 25-year old autistic son who lives in a group home? Or by my other autistic son, who’s 28 and lives at home? Or by my 30-year old Asperger’s Syndrome daughter, who also lives at home? Try a better tactic than flinging wild guesses about when constructing your “zingers”.

MemeWarVet
MemeWarVet
Reply to  Dr. Mabuse
4 years ago

So you don’t have a stake in the future and don’t care. Duly noted.

But the 30 year old proves you’re a Boomer. Also duly noted.

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Dr. Mabuse
4 years ago

Using disabled children we don’t know exist as victim shields to hide behind after you broadside everyone here you disagree with is a low Lefty tactic. If you’re being honest, everyone here sympathizes but we can’t and won’t let you play a victim card to shut everyone up.

Dr. Mabuse
Dr. Mabuse
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

I responded to a low slam about half-breed grandchildren hasarded by someone who was in entire ignorance of me or my family in the hopes of scoring a cheap victory. I’ve no power to shut anyone up on this blog, but I’ve no intention of allowing a snotty little gotcha remark like that to pass.

Michaeloh
Michaeloh
Reply to  Dr. Mabuse
4 years ago

“Shut up!” he asked.

ronehjr
ronehjr
Reply to  Dr. Mabuse
4 years ago

The Zman has stated his position on the JQ fairly definitively. So my guess is no, it will not be all Jew-stuff.