Integral Thoughts

Integralism, sometimes called Catholic integralism or Christian integralism, is the revival of one of the oldest concepts in Christianity. The very simple definition of integralism is that worship is essential to the common good, therefore political authority, in order to maintain legitimacy, much recognize and promote the religion of the people. Since this is primarily a Christian concept, at least in this context, the religion must be Christianity or in the case of Catholic societies, Catholicism.

At first blush this may sound like theocracy, but that is not the case. Instead, it is both a critique of and reform of liberal democracy. In the most general sense, liberal democracy is a set of rules that ensures that the general will of the people is expressed through the state. In theory, at least, liberal democracy is silent on the nature of the social arrangements of the people, as long as those arrangements are arrived upon through the mechanism of the ballot box and marketplace.

Integralism is first and foremost a critique of this definition of liberal reality. They point out that in every liberal democracy, an ideology evolves to limit the choices at the ballot box and in the marketplace. Homosexual marriage is the most obvious example. The public rejected it, so it was imposed. Often, the liberal-democratic ideology limits or removes choices within the family. For example, parents are forced to put their sons on mind-altering drugs in order to please the public schools.

For the integralists, the first line of critique is observable reality. Liberal democracy, whatever it claims in theory, results in degeneracy and the destruction of the social capital of the people. A system that is supposed to be devoid of morality is quickly consumed by a destructive civic ideology. This defect, according to the modern integralists, is the absence of morality. A system constrained by and subordinate to a Christian moral code would not make war on the people.

The aim of the Catholic integralist is the integration of religious authority and political power. This is not some fringe idea promoted by people living off the grid. Leading integralists include Edmund Waldstein, Patrick J. Deneen, Gladden Pappin, and Adrian Vermeule. Notre Dame’s main journal posted a long essay explaining Catholic integralism a couple of years ago. This was written by the aforementioned Edmund Waldstein, who is a Cistercian monk from Austria.

Catholic integralism has a traveling partner in the Protestant sphere that is called Christian reconstructionism. This is a 20th century movement, rooted in prior reform movements, which argues that modern government should be ruled by divine law, including the judicial laws of the Old Testament. The Christian Right in the United States, the home school movement and various other social conservative movements sprung from Christian reconstructionism in the last century.

The main criticism of integralism in all its forms is that not all people are Christian in modern Western societies. Jews, for example, would oppose any effort to integrate Christian ethics into secular law. Darren Beattie, the right-wing critic of multiculturalism, is very opposed to integralism, calling Vermeule a dangerous joke. Nationalist Yorham Harzony opposes any role of Catholicism in modern society. Neocons, of course, oppose anything with the hint of decency.

From the Jewish perspective, this is not a small thing. A society limited by Christian ethics, even broadly defined, is one that will encourage the inclusion of Christians and the exclusion of non-Christians. Mormons will support their fellow Mormons. Baptists will support their fellow Baptists. Being of the faith will be a qualification for access to power and authority. Jews understand all too well the nature of tribal identity, so they must oppose any role of religion in a society, other than Israel.

There are, of course, secular criticisms of integralism. Right-wing Progressives like David French argue that it is just Christian authoritarianism. It is a curious claim from someone who favorably compares himself to Christ. Civic nationalists and constitutional originalists oppose the idea of introducing morality into the law. They make rather curious claims about the nature of modern society, like we are governed by the written law, in order to defend the current kritarchy.

All of these criticisms of integralism miss the mark, because they refuse to acknowledge the reality of liberal democracy. America is now an ideological state, closer to a theocracy, rather than the liberal ideal. The debate is not about whether the state and its agents, private and public, will impose a moral order on the people. The question is the source of that morality and how will it be imposed. To pretend otherwise is to live in the realm of fantasy. Morality is part of what defines every society.

The integralists, however, come up short and for a similar reason. One big elephant in the room is the open society. You cannot, in fact, have an open society, as it is quickly overrun. The integralist insist that you can maintain the open society, just as long as it is governed by divine law. This is not a lot different from what civic nationalists argue with regards to immigration. If every newcomer agrees on the rules, then why not let everyone move to wherever they think is best for them?

America has a long experience with this reality, as the country has been multiracial and multicultural from the start. Blacks in America are every bit as Christian, more so, in fact, as whites, but the races continue to live culturally separate. The typical black neighborhood is nothing like the typical white neighborhood. Black culture remains stubbornly immune to modernity. The truth is, God may love us equally, but he gave us different continents as homelands for a reason.

The same critique of liberal democracy can be made of integralism, in that both have the same plank in their eye. That is biology. The Christianity of one people differs from that of another people because the people are different. They have a different past, a different set of ancestors and different sense of who they are as a people. The same is true of the people’s sense of civic duty and their relationship to their society. New England remains alien to Appalachia because of biology.

That said, given the choice between integralism and civic nationalism, biological reality will come down on the side of the former. If one accepts that the divine law of one people will differ from that of another, integralism is an excellent critique of liberal democracy. It offers a moral argument in response to the ideological claims of the current ruling elite. More important, those moral arguments are rooted in something with genuine moral authority, rather than the general will.


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Chris_Lutz
Member
4 years ago

Moral neutrality has always been a myth or a lie. It is impossible to be morally neutral. All laws have as their basis some level of moral reasoning. To say otherwise is to be a mindless libertarian on the side of the road waiting to be beaten senseless.

As it says in the OT: Choose this day which god you will serve.

Ben the Layabout
Ben the Layabout
Reply to  Chris_Lutz
4 years ago

As a rationalist (secular humanist, whatever), I must argue exactly the opposite. As briefly as possible: In Nature, in the Universe does morality exist without man? No, of course it does not. Why not? Because a person, place or thing can only be judged as being moral, good or evil by a human being. The awful truth is that the Universe is completely indifferent to our human whims and even needs. Why is it so hard for people to accept that the world is controlled by physical laws, which are fairly well understood, and that no amount of prayer, incense… Read more »

dad29
Reply to  Ben the Layabout
4 years ago

Would you like to post something that is RELEVANT to the discussion?

Ben the Layabout
Ben the Layabout
Reply to  dad29
4 years ago

forgive me. I would think that asking asking what is the origin of morality and laws is very relevant. I don’t claim to have any final answers, but I do claim that a failure to look at fundamentals is a primary cause of errors and disasters in human systems.

Joshua Shalet
Joshua Shalet
Reply to  Ben the Layabout
4 years ago

I agree, without an uncaused first cause, akaGod, all moral arguments are whimsical relatives

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
Reply to  Joshua Shalet
4 years ago

The prime mover, the creator, is not necessarily a law giver.

And even if the prime mover provides a morality, one can still examine it, although it may not be advisable if the creator does not suffer fools gladly.

Stranger in a strange land
Reply to  LineInTheSand
4 years ago

Always good to keep Job 38:4 in mind.

BadThinker
BadThinker
Reply to  Ben the Layabout
4 years ago

Consciousness is a complete mystery to us. The world is hardly well understood at all.

MemeWarVet
MemeWarVet
Reply to  BadThinker
4 years ago

RE: Consciousness- “The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light… Read more »

Al from da Nort
Al from da Nort
Reply to  Ben the Layabout
4 years ago

Ben; One thing for sure about the universe is that it is very finely tuned to support our existence. And it is also now clear that it was created ex nihilo (from nothing) in an instant, the twinkling of an eye, so to speak. The Cloud Folk have sent billions to Big U trying to refute these two claims to no avail. You are stealing a philosophical base here. Christians never said the *universe*^ cared about us, despite your claim (which is common in atheistic circles). We say that *The Creator of The Universe* cares about us. It is, literally,… Read more »

Penitent Man
Penitent Man
Reply to  Al from da Nort
4 years ago

Al del Norte, Good bullet point defenses on the fly. I’d boil it down a little further to squelch the inevitable preening secular humanist cycle that never leads to any conversions on either side and sidetracks the actual subject. The topic is fitting a society/morality/religious ethos model together that works for a specific People. Whether it’s the John Lennon Imagine drivel or the techno/atheist USSR murderfest… anything along that spectrum won’t work because real live humans are involved. Genocidal hilarity always ensues. Yup, religions can be murderous because they are also human-run, but the consanguinity of a religion (broadly)/ the… Read more »

Epaminondas
Member
Reply to  Al from da Nort
4 years ago

If God were just, He would not have put the forbidden fruit out where some silly woman could get it. Sort of like leaving a can of gas and a box of matches on the floor at a day-care center just to see what might happen. I’m inclined to think we are NOT being tested. Something else is going on. The ways of God are beyond our comprehension. Don’t make it complicated by trying to figure out why there is evil. Trying to write out the rationale for our existence is well above our pay-grade. It is enough to know… Read more »

Codex
Codex
Reply to  Epaminondas
4 years ago

By the same token a merciful God would not have put a pretty pair of T&A where the first Beta Male could fail to take up his leadership and pass on a stupid piece of fruit. Thirsty guys, amirite?

Men and women fail in distinctive ways according to their nature because of the first Epic Fail.

If you have kids, you get an inkling of why God did it. You can’t have real love without a tiny infinitesimal point of Now in a causal universe carved out of the inexorable and eternal divine will wherein we are free to chose

Penitent Man
Penitent Man
Reply to  Ben the Layabout
4 years ago

Ben, Meh. Go be a beast of the field then. Live, die, rut, eat and deficate. Curiosity, self-awareness and awe are merely expressions of chemical reactions. Pray to the science-gods; that either you are the baddest mofo on the block or so many of us are foolishly mystified by the Sky-man… that we dont cast aside those arcane made-up prohibitions of the imaginary Super-Santa and take what is yours, cast your corpse aside and furrow your women. Zman makes a salient point. I dont know where exactly he lies on the spectrum of spirituality. That’s not what he is talking… Read more »

BadThinker
BadThinker
Reply to  Penitent Man
4 years ago

The Libertarian Mouth Fart sounds like a good name for a rock band.

Penitent Man
Penitent Man
Reply to  BadThinker
4 years ago

Badthinker,

I would absolutely celebrate LMF’s entire musical catalog. Huge fan.

Chris_Lutz
Member
Reply to  Ben the Layabout
4 years ago

Your argument is a non sequitur. Even if morality only exists in the mind of man, man still wants morality. That does not change man will implement one moral system or another, and that he is incapable of moral neutrality.

Anyways based on your logic
1. The physical is all that exists
2. Man is caused by physical laws
3. Man creates morality
4. Therefore, physical laws have created morality

Horace
Horace
Reply to  Ben the Layabout
4 years ago

“… the world is controlled by physical laws, …” I think it is more correct to say that interactions within ‘the world’ are MEDIATED by physical laws. God the Tester has set constraint upon process, and how we deal with these are part of the test, both as individuals and as civilizations. Our forebrain behavioral choices, which we control, are manifestations of our moral code. That the outcomes of our choices will depend on natural law does not invalidate the moral component. We are literally patterns that ingest new atoms and expel old ones. What percent of your biomass at… Read more »

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  Ben the Layabout
4 years ago

yeah, man has moral agency unlike other creatures of God in the physical realm. so? yeah, the Universe is so indifferent, we can do anything with it. inert matter right? right? yeah of course humans have to interpret His designs. how else would we make it, if instead we couldn’t interpret anything? and if we can interpret, why so? why are we not just slugs, even if you are trying hard right now to reduce humanity to that with this comment? what and why made our genes so selfish? why would we not stay primordial soup forever? oh but humans… Read more »

Xman
Xman
Reply to  Ben the Layabout
4 years ago

Read Aquinas, ya douchebag. This was discussed in 1250, for Chrissakes. Don’t act like you know something about philosophy without putting forth the effort to plow through (and actually UNDERSTAND) Aristotle and the Summa Theologica first. People a hell of a lot smarter than the black-glasses-with-neckbeards-and-tats-at-Starbucks crowd have wrestled with these questions centuries before you should have been a f–stain on your mother’s mattress.

BadThinker
BadThinker
Reply to  Xman
4 years ago

Summa Contra Gentiles is even better, imho as well as Pascal’s Pensees.

Paintersforms
Paintersforms
4 years ago

Men are supposed to do God’s will. If God’s will isn’t being done, that’s men’s failure. Keep it simple. Don’t try to be God, don’t eat the fruit of the tree when women tempt and cajole you. Just do what you’re supposed to do, and things will work out. In other words, have faith.

Yeah that sounds fundamentalist, but look around at this feminized world, and ask yourself if it’s so bad to be a little fundamentalist.

KGB
KGB
Reply to  Paintersforms
4 years ago

Short and sweet, and that about sums it up. We can either listen to God or try to play God, there’s really no other choice. That’s what the story of the forbidden fruit is all about. Evil comes into this world through women, via the weakness of men.

Bunny
Bunny
Reply to  KGB
4 years ago

Sure, women are uniquely evil. Ackshually, the Fall is sometimes interpreted as a happy fault or Felix Culpa for all the Latin aficionados, the genesis of man’s free will and moral agency and the restoration of man to a better state of supernatural grace.

Sung at Easter vigil:
“O happy fault,
O necessary sin of Adam

which gained for us
so great a Redeemer!”

Paintersforms
Paintersforms
Reply to  Bunny
4 years ago

My inner nerd had to look this up:

Faust: We usually gather from your names
The nature of you gentlemen: it’s plain
What you are, we all too clearly recognise
One who’s called Liar, Ruin, Lord of the Flies.
Well, what are you then?

Mephistopheles: Part of the Power that would
Always wish Evil, and always works the Good.

It’s not that women are evil, but they seem susceptible to that kind of logic. Also Enlightenment soyboys like Faust, apparently.

KGB
KGB
Reply to  Bunny
4 years ago

That evil enters the world through the capriciousness of women is not to say that women are evil, only that they beguile men into holding open the door through which evil passes. You’re right, though. Man’s fall is necessary in order for us to fulfill our mission of learning how to love God. If we were merely animals, we would do what we’re programmed to do without the capacity to grasp His protective grace. By giving us the choice in Eden, God knew that although we would necessarily fall, we would then become aware of the difference between Good and… Read more »

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  Bunny
4 years ago

well of course Adam is mentioned in that chant, because Christ is the new Adam. i’d also argue that the Fall wasn’t happy, but that the chant considers it thus only insofar as the Redeemer came. as you say, it was the beginning of free will and moral agency, but the restoration was not instant – Patriarchs, Law and Prophets had to come, then the Redeemer. also, the chant doesn’t mean Eve was not the first one to sin, or that men aren’t meant to lead women according to the Apostle (and consequently proven by biology). *of course, in exchange… Read more »

G Lordon Giddy
G Lordon Giddy
4 years ago

Good essay. I think of my now deceased father who grew up in the 1940’s and 1950’s rural America. Neither he nor his father and mother went to church or attended Christian services, they ran a pool hall. Yet my fathers morality was immersed in Christian ethics and the ether of a Christian society. We have lost most of that now. Liberal democracy and its secular ethics, it’s diversity God , glorification of homosexuality and the multicultural religion has taken us into a different culture devoid of inner strength in my opinion. The screeching of the hysterical media over this… Read more »

tristan
tristan
Reply to  G Lordon Giddy
4 years ago

Unfortunately the new western religion appears to be a mass suicide cult, but rather than waiting for the end of the world, they are actively trying to make it so on earth.

We have arrived as we allowed our own openess to be exploited by a systemic attack on chrisitianity driven via mass media. It is no coincidence the rise of TV was used as an agent of intentional destruction.

Exile
Exile
Member
4 years ago

“Blacks in America are every bit as Christian, more so, in fact, as whites, but the races continue to live culturally separate. The typical black neighborhood is nothing like the typical white neighborhood. Black culture remains stubbornly immune to modernity. The truth is, God may love us equally, but he gave us different continents as homelands for a reason.” Kin > Tribe/Ethnicity > Race > Community > Ideology The first 3 = biology. The last 2 = religion, in the modern sense. Divorcing religion from kin, ethnicity and race can work – look at any modern denomination – but it’s… Read more »

MemeWarVet
MemeWarVet
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

Christianity differs from all other religions in that it is highly syncretic, meaning it can be practiced “correctly” in any cultural context so long as certain key doctrines remain intact.

Black churches will always be full of clapping, drums, and not a whole lot of intellectual depth.

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  MemeWarVet
4 years ago

The Voodeo-Christian canonization of St. King in America suggests a certain moral laxity and the native-African churches get up to some witchy stuff. The last real “African” Catholic was a Med from Hippo. This is why religion makes a bad First Thing to unite a society. The biology will tell over time. Religion’s well downstream from biology in the true order of things. Once your syncretism passes a certain unmarked, intangible point, it’s no longer “real” to more Trad believers – especially in the unifying sense. Likewise for the “heretics.” I’m not going to travel Nigeria alone armed with only… Read more »

MemeWarVet
MemeWarVet
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

All certainly true. The Orthodox get it correct here by having congregations with reflect shared biology and shared faith.

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  MemeWarVet
4 years ago

the problem with the Orthodox is that whenever ethnic disputes arise in the congregations, they divide further instead of uniting, which may keep the peace in the short run, but doesn’t help when faced with larger threats. thus the Orthodox end up not needing a pope, but a full blown Caesar, either in Constantinople or in Moscow/Petrograd, who can keep all the multiplying patriarchs and eparchs in check, but who also is resented by Orthodox of other lesser nations (example the nasty split between Ukrainian and Russian Orthodoxies due entirely political matters). Catholicism lost Morocco and Algeria, but then won… Read more »

Bunny
Bunny
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

“The last real ‘African’ Catholic was a Med from Hippo.” Cardinal Sarah begs to differ. “I’m not going to travel Nigeria alone armed with only a rosary, that’s for sure.” The Society of African Missions, The Spiritans (Congregation of the Holy Spirit, C.S.Sp.),The Augustinians (Order of Saint Augustine, O.S.A.), Missionary Sisters of Our Lady of Apostles, St. Louis Sisters, Salesians of Don Bosco Salesians of Don Bosco (SDB)], Missionaries of Africa, Pontifical Mission Societies of Nigeria (PMS Nigeria), Aid to the Church in Need, Missionary Society of St. Paul, Order of Preachers (Dominicans), Order of Discalced Carmelites, The Franciscans, Society… Read more »

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Bunny
4 years ago

None of these people refute the argument that Catholicism is being Africanized. None of this makes me any more inclined to travel in Nigeria b/c Cardinal Whosis or Father Somebody.

I knew there would be X number of Catholics here who would ackshually me on this – didn’t want to muck up the post addressing outliers or nominal exceptions. I stand on my points.

Bunny
Bunny
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

I’m not inclined to travel to Nigeria, either, but this does not negate the fact that there is still a strong Catholic presence and missionary activity there. Nor does it negate the fact that Augustine was certainly not the last real African Catholic. Why the disdain for the Paleoconservative Eminence? He’s on your side, ackshually. “Globalized humanity, without borders, is a hell. The standardization of ways of life is the cancer of the postmodern world. Men become unwitting members of a great planetary herd, that does not think, does not protest, and allows itself to be guided toward a future… Read more »

Ostei Kozelskii
Member
Reply to  Bunny
4 years ago

And, I must say, were it not for the no-votes of Third World-Methodist clergy, the First United Methodist Church would now be conducting heaumeaux weddings. And this gets to a point Eastwood made in Gran Torino–many Third World peoples are far more traditional than whites. Doesn’t mean we want to live in the Third World or that we want its inmates to inundate us here. But the Third World example should serve as an object lesson to whites who are blithely sauntering into Sheol.

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

absolutely everything is being Africanized. so who knows, maybe it would help rescuing white traditions, like Roman (!) Christianity. heck, even the white pagans make nice runes and stuff. secular white nationalism is so dry by comparison, which is why it never leaves the blogs and the telegram chats and the stats. are memes and Laibach our highest art form? rephrasing that, are we inspired at all???? if anything, it seems secular whites are just trying to one up (((them))) in their established fields under their rules, thus eventually falling into their same errors. then again, so did Christianity dry… Read more »

dad29
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

Sts. Benedict the Moor, Perpetua, Felicity, Martin de Porres, and Peter Claver will be happy to join Cdl. Sarah in dissent from your mis-statement. Ever hear of “Google”?

Bunny
Bunny
Reply to  dad29
4 years ago

Or any of these after 430 A.D., dad.
https://www.catholic.org/saints/black.php

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  dad29
4 years ago

Ever hear of rhetoric?

I could slog down the thread with 100 links about the African Church turning a blind eye to folk magic, FGM, etc… but I think most people get it.

This kind of pedantry and NAxALT is why so many on the Right can’t beat the Left at meta-politics. I’m not going to play whack-a-mole with your list of nominal Catholics.

Bunny
Bunny
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

At least the Church leadership in Africa is moving in the right (traditional Catholic) direction, pretty much as a body, even if they have to drag their flock behind them. Most all are like that. Honesty is not pedantry.

3g4me
3g4me
Reply to  Bunny
4 years ago

Bunny, with all due respect for your Catholic faith, you are missing the point here. You may hold up all the counter examples you wish, but the fact remains that Christianity – what we think of and believe as Christians today, did not develop amongst black sub-Saharan Africans. It developed amongst the Mediterranean peoples and, as Exile noted, then syncretized with Greco-Roman people and thought. Add in the Germans and other Europeans and you have a distinct strain of Christianity – what was initially the only strain – which we practice variants of today. Asian and African Christianity was an… Read more »

Bunny
Bunny
Reply to  3g4me
4 years ago

Christianity developed among the Jews also, as many here would argue per its unfitness for your movement. And although different locales may have varying “flavors” of Catholicism, as long as they adhere to Church doctrine/dogma, those peoples are truly Catholic. The African Church is demonstrably and objectively more traditionally Catholic than the West, at least as far as the leadership is concerned. That is not singing paeans to them, it’s the truth. I’m not really concerned with the point (“This is why religion makes a bad First Thing to unite a society”), but with the veracity of the supporting “facts”.… Read more »

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  3g4me
4 years ago

the Africans are paeans to some traditionalist doctrines that we need to imitate… from afar. because due to their other practices (FGM, folk magic, cannibalism to get boners) and lower IQ, better send missionaries over there instead of bringing refugees over here. what Bunny is against is this sort of whites-only Christianity that is ahistorical: the early Christian world was not only Greco-Roman, there were barbaroi from the Rhine and Danube, Semites, Berbers, Arabs, Indians even because St Thomas got all the way there. it is also heretical, as all races can go to heaven or hell, even if some… Read more »

Penitent Man
Penitent Man
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

Exile Sir, I’m going to poke you with a Naxalt (because I know how much you love those) and because I’ve met you, I like you and I respect your intellect greatly. You also know I stand firmly on Christian belief platform with a largely separate tribal integrity caveat. But mostly because it is funny. I attended two Masses two weeks apart. One, given by a Dominican scholar where he flexed his theologian’s muscles with a Thomas Aquinas WOD. He laid out a defense in depth against atheist arguments and how to browbeat conversion with reason and logical entreaties. 95%… Read more »

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  Penitent Man
4 years ago

agreed. Christianity can be internationalist, because it isn’t.

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Penitent Man
4 years ago

PM, you already agree it’s a NABALT example, so I don’t think we disagree on anything of substance. Your example does prove the superior force of rhetoric to Scholastic-tier logic (which is self-referential and ponderous for all that it reaches a lot of good conclusions). Getting lost in mountains of minutia and meticulous evidence lists is something they teach trial lawyers to avoid. When the jury starts yawning, you’re doing it wrong. The key to winning is to have a compelling narrative that tracks closely enough to jurors’ existing biases and the evidence alike. See Marcia Clark & Chris Darden… Read more »

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

ideally we could combine both rhetoric with enough sprinkles of Scholastics to make the jurors feel smart too. if not, we end up just lawyering and narrativizing endlessly, abusing both the jurors and the evidence according to today’s materialist concern. just like (((them))) who sat at the side of Cochran and OJ.

but yes, a homily is not necessarily time for Aquinas. you gotta know your crowd. also, blacks can be riveting speakers and entertainers, within their frame of course. again, Cochran.

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

fair enough, but St. King was canonized by liberal whites, specially secular, and by (((others))) even harder. the ones strongest against him were hardcore segregationist Southern white Christians and their pastors. it was “real” to them, the National Guard had to come. some liberal Christians may have supported St King, but they were always the minority, even more so those days. also, high turnover among them as many just skip to agnosticism and beyond. many an SJW today notes that the same Southern churches opposed to gay marriage were opposed to legalizing miscegenation decades ago, even show it in memes…… Read more »

Ris_Eruwaedhiel
Ris_Eruwaedhiel
Reply to  MemeWarVet
4 years ago

Christianity isn’t as highly regimented as Islam or Judaism. It focuses more on certain principles and doctrines and leaves the practical working out of these ideas to individuals and churches.

There is a wide differences in interpretation. There are Christian pacifists and Christian warriors, Christian capitalists and Christian communists, etc. Martin Luther observed that even the devil can quote scripture for his purposes.

Stina
Stina
Reply to  MemeWarVet
4 years ago

Christian redemption is not limited to individual souls, but extends to families (1 Peter 3) and cultures (1 Corinthians 9:22).

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  Stina
4 years ago

yes. which is why a certain (((people))) will forever be cursed, every descendant, until they convert.

Ben the Layabout
Ben the Layabout
Reply to  MemeWarVet
4 years ago

There are 20,000, 30,000 (depends on who’s counting) flavors of Christianity in the world. Probably Islam and the other religions are not too different. So, pray tell, how many “key doctrines” remain intact?

MemeWarVet
MemeWarVet
Reply to  Ben the Layabout
4 years ago

Let’s see:

-Virgin Birth
-Death, Burial, & Bodily Ressurection of Christ
-Jesus was who he claimed to be (the literal son of God)
-Entry into heaven is impossible without forgiveness of sin
-Jesus is the only way by which sin can be forgiven

Those are the big ones; any group that violates these isn’t Christian, period.

Diversity Heretic
Member
Reply to  MemeWarVet
4 years ago

Where does the Trinity fit in here? Bishop Arius would like to know.

MemeWarVet
MemeWarVet
Reply to  Diversity Heretic
4 years ago

I’m a Trinitarian & I believe Trinitarianism is the best interpretation available of sacred scripture.

That being said, I would take non-Trinitarians on a case by case basis. Arias taught that Jesus was a created being, subordinate to the Father, which is a clearly unbiblical teaching.

Paintersforms
Paintersforms
Reply to  MemeWarVet
4 years ago

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only BEGOTTEN son…

Not sure where I stand on the trinity, but it confuses me and at least one of the apostles.

David Davenport
David Davenport
Reply to  MemeWarVet
4 years ago

” Arias taught that Jesus was a created being, subordinate to the Father, which is a clearly unbiblical teaching.”

Please show us your Scriptural support for that premise.

MemeWarVet
MemeWarVet
Reply to  David Davenport
4 years ago

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-3‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Don’t know how you get more unambiguous than that….

Ben the Layabout
Ben the Layabout
Reply to  MemeWarVet
4 years ago

Being the Doubting Thomas here 🙂 my point was that there are few coherent, or even universal beliefs about religions in general. And these beliefs change over time. My criticism extends beyond whatever you define as correct Christianity: Islam or the ooga-booga animist faith of a spear-carrying tribe in a rain forest somewhere (not yet cut down by timber and farming interests) has no more claim to rationality. Finally some expose to competing views can broaden your mind, admittedly at the risk of weakening beliefs. Voltaire is amusing, if you are looking for skewering of religion. Some of this stuff… Read more »

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  Ben the Layabout
4 years ago

Voltaire is the typical fiction writer that thought himself a good philosopher. his people just switched the stake to the guillotine and called it humane. believing the races are equal and genders don’t exist is much more harmfully irrational than believing the virgin birth of a Galilean boy 2020 years ago. but such harmful irrationality is what the materialist, imperfect-senses-only world gives. mankind is no less mystical now than in Inquisition* times, as you say; therefore without God this mysticism becomes increasingly unfocused and harmful. because without God there is no roots, and without roots we are but atoms. *the… Read more »

Stranger in a strange land
Reply to  MemeWarVet
4 years ago

Pretty much what they came up with at that meeting in NIcea back in the 300’s. Works for me.

Tarstarkusz
Member
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

SJWs have taken over every major Christian denomination and turned them into a clown show. At the national level, there is not a single church that hasn’t gone full SJW and done things like endorsing sodomy and enforcing egalitarianism as dogma. There are individual churches within the denominations that basically ignore the POZ coming down from the national orgs, but they are few and far between and at total odds with the national orgs. Further, they are old and the leadership that has been trained to take their place are mostly fully on board with progressive churchianity. Black Christianity is… Read more »

Bunny
Bunny
Reply to  Tarstarkusz
4 years ago

“Praying for a winning lottery ticket is not frowned upon, nor is praying for God to intervene in your court case.”
You’d be surprised how many white Christians do the same, especially those of the prosperity gospel bent. Looking at you, Joel Osteen.

KGB
KGB
Reply to  Bunny
4 years ago

Nah, Osteen will tell you to buy a piece of worthless property and then pray that someone, possibly the government, comes along and offers you 5 times what it’s worth. See, nothing dodgy about that!

Penitent Man
Penitent Man
Reply to  Bunny
4 years ago

Tars,

I would posit SSPX as not being SJW’d. Yet. And they are punished for it.

I dont knock the black churchgoers for their childlike perception of God and Creation any more than I would expect a 7 year to be circumspect. The little girl will not pray (wish) that she be given that which she needs to be strong in her faith and the mere sustenance of a humble servant. She’s going to ask for the unicorn. Every time. It’s still faith. And… it is what it is.

😁

3g4me
3g4me
Reply to  Bunny
4 years ago

Bunny – You are better than this; please don’t resort to the fallacy of tu quoque.

Bunny
Bunny
Reply to  3g4me
4 years ago

I don’t even know what tu quoque is. I was just making an observation from experience.

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  Bunny
4 years ago

tu quoque = you too. namely, the “whites do it too” thing about asking for money. to be fair, you can ask God to intervene, just don’t expect miracles when you don’t deserve them. and, in some cases like asking for help in court when you are guilty, you are using the Lord’s name in vain. kind of also like the sugarbaby who posts up pictures labeled “blessed” with her brand new Ferrari her daddy gave her. she’s been actually cursed. you are right about Osteen and how silly some white Christians (mostly Prot, but also Catholics) can be, so… Read more »

Tarstarkusz
Member
Reply to  Bunny
4 years ago

Joel Olsteen is one of the worst churchian offenders and a straight up con man.
Honestly, this just comes across as a NAXALT (not all X are like that) fallacy. There are blacks and browns who are model Christians and model citizens and are fit to be examples held up for others to emulate and there are white people who are only fit to be bad examples. That doesn’t change the average.

roo_ster
Member
Reply to  Tarstarkusz
4 years ago

Might want to take a looksee at LCMS and WELS.

Yves Vannes
Yves Vannes
Member
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

Christianity began it’s decline when it stopped being Pagan Christianity. The old gods of the Europeans had been incorporated into the pantheon of saints. This gave the Western Church some things in common to all the European peoples and some things that resonated with the different peoples in their own regions, towns and villages. It bound the local to the civilizational. The weakening of these local bonds through an increased emphasis on “universals” is what started us on this path. Tradition and community were slowly diluted. Universals untethered by local ties lost their hold and meaning. An Altar no longer… Read more »

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  Yves Vannes
4 years ago

which is why saints are so important to Catholic culture, they are our vernacular expression of faith pretty much, and national sources of pride. although idk that the pagan gods were simply subsumed into Christianity, and at any rate the saints did actions and writings and miracles recorded in particular nations in history that will not change. thus each Catholic nation has different saints (as well as their own apparitions of Jesus and/or Mary and/or even Apostles), while also allowing all to intercede to God equally for themselves, their families, and nations. meanwhile the Prots have as roots the current… Read more »

ExNativeSon
ExNativeSon
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

Exile, you nailed it. “…services are a sea of non-Whites with the White minority smiling glassy-eyed in beatific self-sacrificial joy, a land of lotus-eaters. Every time I Notice this, I think “they feel like they believe Jesus felt right now. They’re Jesus in their own eyes in this shining moment of pathological altruism.” This isn’t theology. This isn’t sociology. This is addiction – the famous hamster, pushing the button for more sweet dopamine & oxytocin hits, yea unto death.” I’ve been there. Literally. My most interesting time was after leaving such a lunatic lockup as a child in a black… Read more »

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

the Jews always promoted these divorces from reality among Christians, not just when they were majority European, but definitely more so after their Temple fell as predicted and was replaced by His Church. they came up with the Talmud, the Masoretic texts and claimed scripture didn’t validate Jesus, yet still accepting ghetto housing and allowed to profit by loaning money out. with their parasite position on lock, they then abandoned the Orthodox Byzantine Empire to its fate and ran to the Muslims, then funded both sides in the Reformation/Counter-Reformation wars. once apostolic/ideological unity was lost, which coincided with European unity,… Read more »

Joshua Shalet
Joshua Shalet
Reply to  d.deacon
4 years ago

Secular by design Alan W Cecil systematically addresses and refutes all those assertions

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  Joshua Shalet
4 years ago

great, because you cannot address or refute them it seems. or, my actual comment about historical developments.
if secular truth is so important and self-evident, why hidden in a commercial book? lol.

Ben the Layabout
Ben the Layabout
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

Agree overall. As the resident skeptic, I would amplify your comment about hypnotized (my word) church goers. For thought: would you expect any different in the congregation at a different religion’s service? I wouldn’t. Shouldn’t all humans have similar psychological make-ups? It’d be wonderful if Islam would be the next faith to be de-fanged (my term). Perhaps then the ideal of a rational, peaceful world will emerge. Maybe not. Any messianic, utopian vision should be viewed very skeptically: including the secular humanist’s. Alas, I agree with your last comment: In the end there can only be One. The trouble is,… Read more »

Penitent Man
Penitent Man
Reply to  Ben the Layabout
4 years ago

Ben, I casually read Vox Day. It’s an occasional drive by stop because I like principled contrarians and grumpy people. Never gave much thought about his whole personality types (alphas, betas, sigmas, et al)… just sort of one size fits all and honestly a little uninteresting. It becomes pedantic and I am too busy to dwell in another man’s fixations. Until today. He’s got his thing about gammas. I mean a real hard on for them. He goes on constantly about them so you can’t help but get the gist of what he’s on about. I work in a world… Read more »

Glenfilthie
Glenfilthie
Member
Reply to  Ben the Layabout
4 years ago

Being a skeptic requires that you be informed. I would describe you more accurately as a low grade atheist jerk off. Being a skeptic, by its definition would imply that you have grounds to be one. I shouldn’t be so harsh, I suppose – I was raised by progressive shitlibs as well, and like you, I was cultured and conditioned to reject Christianity wholesale without knowing a thing about it. Who, exactly, is being “hypnotized “? I’d suggest that if you want to be a skeptic… start by actually reading the bible and then make an objective study of it.… Read more »

Exile
Exile
Member
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

For an example of how race-realism and Catholicism are incompatible, see Dad & Bunny.

By-the-Book Catholicism is not a strong foundation on which to build a better society because they reject biology outright: “look at muh list of Black saints…” This kind of kumbaya Christianity is the exact problem we’re talking about.

Folkish Christianity can work – this can’t.

Bunny
Bunny
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

I was simply stating facts. Un-facts aren’t a good basis for argument or foundation for anything.

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

they ARE compatible, and they WERE compatible in the segregated Catholic New World until the twentieth century, and in the generally racially-unmixed Old World before air travel. mass emigration from Catholic countries only came in tragic or unexpected circumstances, such as the abuse of pilgrims in the Holy Places by Muslims, discovery of the New World (and even then, emigration wasn’t nearly as massive as from England, where wars of religion drove many away, in Spain the Inquisition kept peace), the potato famine in Ireland, the Prussian overtaking of Catholic Germany, the secular reunification of Italy, etc. otherwise Catholics were… Read more »

UFO
UFO
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

The Bible seems to assume that no tribe would be stupid enough to lose its own identity, and even promote competing tribes over the well being of your own! Love thy neighbour is a great piece of advice. Tribes should stop going around genociding each other and get along! But modern whites think that you have to debase yourself in order to love others. You can be of different tribes, be segregated in daily life, and still accept the other tribe as Christian and even treat him well when a foreigner is coming into your tribe on business etc. But… Read more »

Alzaebo
Alzaebo
Reply to  Exile
4 years ago

The sons of Ishmael are still the seed of Abraham.

It doesn’t matter if one hates the other- read the battle manual for the story of Joseph of the coat of many colors.

Working together, they fulfilled the god’s design and Joseph ended up defacto ruler of Egypt.

They bankrupted it, burned it in the fires of monotheist civil war, and then ran.

Egypt was broken as a ruling world power.
Why?
The Pharaohs had blonde and red hair.
Their unwrapped mummies, today, prove this.

Alzaebo
Alzaebo
Reply to  Alzaebo
4 years ago

ps- blacks, civil rights to supercede constiturion
Yenta-led radical feminism

Those are obvious

But abortion?
We self-rejected eugenics and “racial purity” (which the usual suspects practice) in order to embrace miscegenation

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  Alzaebo
4 years ago

abortion keeps whites having 0.5 kids instead of 3, and gives blacks 3 kids instead of 5.

and abortion-damaged women tend to bring all the other evils you mention.

MemeWarVet
MemeWarVet
4 years ago

Utah functioned pretty darn well as an integralist society for over a Century.

Alas, they were a victim of their own success as BYU was such a high-quality school it ended up producing a Globalist Vanguard more loyal to Davos than the men in Temple Square.

Marko
Marko
Reply to  MemeWarVet
4 years ago

You reminded me of that basketball-American kid at BYU who got kicked off the team for premarital sex. I think that was during Obama’s second term and the height of intersectional leftism. I remember the media trying really hard to ignore the fact the young man was non-white.

Penitent Man
Penitent Man
Reply to  MemeWarVet
4 years ago

“Utah functioned pretty darn well as an integralist society for over a Century.”

I would argue that America did the same for the most part.

The admixture of the society-rending Great War and the simultaneous mass arrival of the tiny hat people added a lethal injection to an ailing patient.

MemeWarVet
MemeWarVet
Reply to  Penitent Man
4 years ago

I wouldn’t disagree with your assessment. I mention Utah for two specific reasons:

1- the effect was very exaggerated, due to the state’s overwhelmingly Mormon population

2- it survived into our lifetimes

But again, your point is well-taken and valid

ConservativeFred
ConservativeFred
4 years ago

When speaking with a Christian Normie about the current state of affairs, one comment that had some red pilling success is “we have simply replaced one morality with another.”

Quickly followed with, “remember when we could say “Merry Christmas” to each other without the PC police descending upon us.”

Ris_Eruwaedhiel
Ris_Eruwaedhiel
Reply to  ConservativeFred
4 years ago

People mock our ancestors for their “Victorian prudery” and our parents for their “1950s repression.” Oh, please. As a society, we are every bit as prudish, repressed, moralistic and judgmental as our ancestors were in the 1850s and our parents in the 1950s. We’re just prudish, repressed, moralistic and judgment about different things. There are really only three issues that Liberals are concerned about: Diversity, Inclusivity and Equity (DIE). The Conservatives have thrown in the towel to the Liberals on social issues, except on abortion. Spawning a bastard and collecting welfare is now a legitimate (admittedly not ideal) lifestyle in… Read more »

DLS
DLS
Reply to  Ris_Eruwaedhiel
4 years ago

I would say today’s society is 50% more prudish and 50% more debauched. You have to get signed consent before leaning in for a kiss, but thereafter you can perform whatever acts you wish on whomever you wish, and if a new life is created as a result, you can kill it up to the time it exists the birth canal, or sometimes even after.

UFO
UFO
Reply to  Ris_Eruwaedhiel
4 years ago

Yeah, we’re still living in an Anglo-derived society after all. There will never be a “normal” period. Always some fad after the other. Some are good, some are bad. But we never do moderation. Society is probably more prude in real terms than it was in the Victorian era. Officially the media pushes increasing degeneracy but the average male is having less and less sex. You think men policed their language, and sexual humor, and swearing and cursing during the Victorian era (in private settings)? My arse. We do censor ourselves now. Men drank alot more alcohol in the Victorian… Read more »

Mike_C
Mike_C
Reply to  ConservativeFred
4 years ago

“remember when we could say ‘Merry Christmas’ to each other without the PC police descending upon us.” Not just Christian normies. Last December I was walking around a TJ Maxx (TK Maxx for our UK friends) with a woman friend who is religiously indifferent. (Claims to be an atheist, but that’s a function of English being her third language. Actually more of an agnostic.) Anyway, we walked by a big display stand full of Hanukkah stuff. She hit the roof. “What the hell? We’re not allowed to have Christmas decorations or to say ‘Merry Christmas’ because it might offend someone,… Read more »

SidVic
SidVic
4 years ago

I don’t care if the goverment promotes a particular religion. I’m more concerned that the denominations uncuck themselves and start fighting for thier congregations intersts. The papist have grown completely impotent and appear to be headed by a marxist jesuit. The baptist aren’t far behind. Who are calling out the pornographers and cultural subversives? Need reform- then start fighting. The boy diddlers need to make way for the warrior monks. It seems to me people would be prepared to flock to some ol timey religion. In short i would be happy with just one based instition to arise so that… Read more »

Screwtape
Screwtape
4 years ago

And when those vested with ruling authority by the people ignore both the moral basis – and the will of the people, the people have a divine moral obligation to cast off those rulers.

MemeWarVet
MemeWarVet
Reply to  Screwtape
4 years ago

Both their rulers and the Karens without whom their rule would be impossible to maintain…

BTP
Member
Reply to  Screwtape
4 years ago

It was Aquinas – no fan of democracy – who observed that a tyrant does not have the protection of the law. To rebel against a tyrant is no sin. The National Review types cannot think those thoughts. For them, so long as the tyrant became a tyrant _legally_ everything is cool. And even if he didn’t, the Supreme Court is the last word or morality for this sort of thing.

Yves Vannes
Yves Vannes
Member
Reply to  BTP
4 years ago

It is the people, the Legacy American, who is now defined as the tyrant. The moral order still exists. It’s simply been inverted.

tristan
tristan
Reply to  BTP
4 years ago

The National review is a Marano publication. It pretends to be Secular but is just the same judaic pressure group in disguise.

DLS
DLS
Reply to  tristan
4 years ago

Actually, NR is Catholic and pro-life, but libertarian/neocon on everything else. What a strange platform. I gave up on them when Trump gave them everything they claimed they wanted for decades, even more so than their sainted Reagan, and they hate him anyway. Trump is a mixed bag for us, but he gave them total victory on tax cuts, Israel, no real cutback in missionary warfare or immigration, very conservative judges, etc. He fought hand-to-hand combat in the trenches for them, and they pranced down from their think-tank tower with their perfumed handkerchiefs to their noses, only to criticize how… Read more »

tristan
tristan
Reply to  DLS
4 years ago

Which bit of Marano is confusing?

Charlemagne
Reply to  DLS
4 years ago

DLS, Where’d you get NR is Catholic? Seems pretty Evangelcal to me.

Codex
Codex
Reply to  DLS
4 years ago

NR is Catholic in the same way that the ELC is “Lutheran” and the Church of England hierarchy are Christian.

They’re all wearing skin suits.

For fans of John C. Wright’s Everness, we’ve been invaded by the Selkies…

Alzaebo
Alzaebo
Reply to  Codex
4 years ago

The evangelical movement was a psy-op by the usual suspects, co-opting the Christian political right.

It was a part of the soft Cultural Revolution of the 60s.

Why?
When their grip was strong, they were “Godless Russian Communists”.
When that grip slipped, they became “Soviet Jewry”, in need of saving.

And they promised the Third Temple in return.

Glenfilthie
Glenfilthie
Member
Reply to  Screwtape
4 years ago

There’s a meme going around on Gab right now. On the top, a bunch of vibrants are hooting and gibbering and capering on top of a trashed squad car and the caption is “When Blacks Chimp Out”. Underneath, a black and white photo of legions of German army marching in polished and precise lock step – and the caption is “When White People Chimp Out”. We can have the mutually shared and enforced justice and law of Christianity. Or, we can have something else. If we are forced to go down that road by moslems, blacks, and Jews… they might… Read more »

UFO
UFO
Reply to  Glenfilthie
4 years ago

Christianity is what tempered whites’ bloodlust throughout history. The Christian morality still does today. Whites are degenerate and atomized today because they are no longer Christian. However, if whites were to snap there’s no Christian morality that’s going to stop anything this time, as it has in the past (ie. slavery). Basically (especially for the northern Euros) – we have little moderation and whatever we do, we commit to it fully. Right now it’s Globohomo. But in the future that can change.

Removing Christianity from Germanics and Anglos might turn out to be a big mistake by the (((elites))).

Penitent Man
Penitent Man
Reply to  UFO
4 years ago

UFO, “Removing Christianity from Germanics and Anglos might turn out to be a big mistake by the (((elites))).” The Tribe has never shown much wisdom. Attempting to remake every society they infect inevitably backfires. Even (((their))) enforced communism couldn’t pull an undo on human nature. To your statement above. I can’t remember which scifi writer I was reading but I remember there was a line something to the effect of warning hostile alien invaders that, “the reason we gave up war is because we were so very, very good at it.” It made me think of Our People when I… Read more »

Chester White
Reply to  Glenfilthie
4 years ago

As has been pointed out, when blacks riot, cities burn, and when whites riot, nations burn.

Yak-15
Yak-15
4 years ago

Morality is a part of any society and I take pleasure in pointing out to anyone who will listen that our current construct of morality is so backwards it must be disobeyed. We must fight today’s bizarre version of morality because the chief purpose of any society is to perpetuate itself and our current society is not breeding. In fact, many of today’s most sacred rights prevent reproduction. (Women’s liberation, abortion, etc) Your views on these issues are really irrelevant because, since personality and political views are inherited, your ancestors will not be around to perpetuate your views on morality.… Read more »

Ris_Eruwaedhiel
Ris_Eruwaedhiel
Reply to  Yak-15
4 years ago

I have Mormon friends and made a point of learning about the Church stands for.

The Mormon patriarchy is quite mild, like what existed in 1950s America. The Church still stresses wholesome living, celebrates motherhood and promotes pre-marital chastity and marital fidelity for both men and women. Heartiste’s fans wouldn’t like that.

MemeWarVet
MemeWarVet
Reply to  Ris_Eruwaedhiel
4 years ago

The LDS have gotten very cucky on race. Give it a generation and they’ll go full Espiscopalian.

Ris_Eruwaedhiel
Ris_Eruwaedhiel
Reply to  MemeWarVet
4 years ago

I noticed that, too. Unfortunately, but isn’t that true of most if not all mainstream Christian denominations? Perhaps the Eastern Orthodox Churches are exceptions.

BadThinker
BadThinker
Reply to  Ris_Eruwaedhiel
4 years ago

Some. Some are just as pozzed. The vast gulf between Seraphim Rose and David Bentley Hart is striking.

UFO
UFO
Reply to  Ris_Eruwaedhiel
4 years ago

I was a member for a while at a very conservative Evangelical church. Very based on all points except race. Oh well, it was 90% white and was promoting good morals for its congregants and promoting childbirth.

Problem is that most of the young people in the church are also cucked. And even feeling white guilt. The old people are awesome but they will be gone soon and I give it a 0% chance that the “future leaders” of the church will do anything remotely controversial or anti-poz. really sad.

Stranger in a strange land
Reply to  UFO
4 years ago

If the typical response to the demands of the CV19 gestapo by most all churches regadless of where they stand along the evangelical…ecumenical spectrum is any indication – quite sad indeed. There was something said (and it wasn’t good) in The Revelation about the church at Laodecia that may well apply to many churches today.

MemeWarVet
MemeWarVet
Reply to  Stranger in a strange land
4 years ago

The American Church is fixin’ to be spit right on out….Lukewarm is too kind a term.

3g4me
3g4me
Reply to  Ris_Eruwaedhiel
4 years ago

Ris – the Moron patriarchy also heavily promotes multiculturalism, because the entirety of their growth comes from non-Whites. They are busily importing thousands of Samoans and Mexicans and other flotsam and jetsom into their previously orderly society and marrying them to their lovely blonde daughters. The results are not pretty. Look into the crime rates in Salt Lake City. Once again, people here are missing the point – religion – ANY religion – is downstream from race and culture.

UFO
UFO
Reply to  3g4me
4 years ago

I dunno man, seems like alot of Anglos just don’t have the ethnocentrism required to survive in the modern, diverse world. No doubt some of us do (places like Z blog exist) but we will see lots. How long until the Amish start welcoming in Africans (as long as they learn Pennsyvania Dutch of course – LOL).. I suppose in a pre-industrial society white ethnocentrism is not needed… 95% of non-whites would be completely useless to an Amish community, for instance. You don’t even need to be racist they would just fail on their own and drop out. It’s your… Read more »

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  UFO
4 years ago

the thing of it is, belief is measured in performance in the end. faith without works is dead, and all that. then again, performance in the materialist world is not the same as avoiding sin. treasures on heaven, treasures on earth, and all that. besides, it’s not like Christianity exacts humongous demands, compared for example to others who have to make pilgrimage to a sandy Mideast city to be saved. “my yoke is soft, and sweet”. and at any rate, IQ scale don’t necessarily match the sin scale, rather different sins are committed by different IQs. a black bum squatting… Read more »

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  Ris_Eruwaedhiel
4 years ago

yes, but apparently they don’t want none of those nice things for the rest of us, and so they gave us Mittens for president.

those 2012 GOP debates drained the soul of whoever watched them. i saw a couple minutes once and just wanted for Rick Santorum to declare we would live in theocracy or something crazy to wake up everyone. how dark were the times, before the golden escalator.

UFO
UFO
Reply to  d.deacon
4 years ago

the orange escalator, some might say

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  UFO
4 years ago

yes, orange-we glad he came along… if only to buy us some more time due to his many flaws, but oh well… we need to keep plowing along either way…

Ris_Eruwaedhiel
Ris_Eruwaedhiel
4 years ago

When the framers of the Constitution discussed “liberty,” they meant “ordered liberty,” liberty within moral limits. Freedom of speech didn’t mean the right to peddle pornography. But the other liberal core principle of “equality” kept going and going like the Energizer bunny, undermining the idea of a higher authority. After all, if everyone is equal, no one has the right to tell you what to do and what not to do. You are your own moral authority.

Marko
Marko
Reply to  Ris_Eruwaedhiel
4 years ago

Funny that David French’s podcast is called “Ordered Liberty”…

Yves Vannes
Yves Vannes
Member
Reply to  Ris_Eruwaedhiel
4 years ago

Are we even capable of bring this to an end on our own without complete collapse? Even left to ourselves the current social arrangements would be disastrous. It is what put us on the path to our present troubles. Adding the needs and concerns of Jews and other outsiders to this is suicidal. “Is it good for white people as a whole or is it destructive to our group’s evolved symbiotic structure?” This is the only question we should concern ourselves with. The “other” have their own homelands. Sending away those who don’t belong here and who undermine our nations… Read more »

Ris_Eruwaedhiel
Ris_Eruwaedhiel
Reply to  Yves Vannes
4 years ago

I don’t think there will be major change until we are standing at the edge of the cliff. I hope that society doesn’t go off the cliff.

I think that there will be civil war. Not like the War Between the States, but like The Troubles in Northern Ireland. Terrorism, sabotage, kidnappings, etc.

Ben the Layabout
Ben the Layabout
Reply to  Ris_Eruwaedhiel
4 years ago

Being the cynic, I would say there won’t be any changes until the survivors, groaning after the fall, extricate themselves from the tangle of bodies at the bottom of the cliff 🙁

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  Ben the Layabout
4 years ago

yes. sometimes sacrifice is needed

Bill_Mullins
Member
Reply to  Ris_Eruwaedhiel
4 years ago

When the framers of the Constitution discussed “liberty,” they meant “ordered liberty,” liberty within moral limits.

Here is Jefferson’s definition of liberty

Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add ‘within the limits of the law’ because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  Bill_Mullins
4 years ago

so in short, you are only free when equal, and equal when free.
left-libertarianism. the worst of both worlds.

but hey, Louisiana purchase.

joey junger
joey junger
4 years ago

This good post definitely exposes the lie that is the concept of “Judeo-Christian” anything, for if the Neocons and their like actually believed it, why would they object to integrating some Christianity into society, since (according to Ben Shapiro) it’s just “emended Judaism” with a scaffolding of post-Messianic compassion grafted onto it? It may be true that in the past the main problem for Jews was that Christians didn’t care for them, but now it seems that Jews’ main problem (at least in America) is that they don’t care for anyone or anything, except themselves, getting revenge for the past,… Read more »

JR Wirth
JR Wirth
4 years ago

This country was very much tied to faith many decades ago, even though we’ve never had a state religion. So what happened to Christianity? Over many decades, long before we were born, it happily gave its moral authority to the state. The Christians of the time (and today) no longer wanted the burden of taking care of the weakest in society. The government happily took that mantle. It then went even further and gave handouts, in the form of grants, to religions. So in a way, the church is part of an “integral” authority, not as decision maker, but generator… Read more »

Stina
Stina
Reply to  JR Wirth
4 years ago

I blame women.

No, seriously. Since the day of Christ, women were highly influential in churches, freely giving their money to the church.

Their push for political participation shifted their do-gooder behavior from the church to the state. I guess they saw the state as a more powerful partner in their goals (and one that put fewer limits on them). Hypergamy.

Al from da Nort
Al from da Nort
Reply to  JR Wirth
4 years ago

J.R.; I put some time into trying to understand how the Mainline Protestant denominations apparently went from Power to Pozz in just one generation. My take is that it wasn’t just a generation or even two. For a common-sense historical chain, more like 250 – 300 years are required. Here is my stab at a timeline and a (certainly not the) causal explanation. NOTE: *Dates below are notional only.* Tl/Dr: There has been a centuries’ long secular assault on Christian belief, particularly as the basis for morality. This assault put on the guise of science as (unwarranted) argument from authority… Read more »

JR Wirth
JR Wirth
Reply to  Al from da Nort
4 years ago

I agree with you and I like your timeline. Especially women on the pulpit, an early chump move by Progressive era pastors. Every church needs one of those old Vaudeville canes to drag them off. The one place where I disagree is that there is vigor in the evangelical fraction. I believe this is cracking as well based on the latest demographics, and as someone who has changed churches like shirts, I see glass jaws on a lot of them. A lot of “prosperity gospel” has taken hold among the evangelicals. The whole Dave Ramsey faction. As millions of them… Read more »

Al from da Nort
Al from da Nort
Reply to  JR Wirth
4 years ago

J.R.; Can’t disagree about Dave Ramsey’s religious component too much. As a practical matter, he’s helped a lot of people take back their lives from the consumption virus. FWIW, he’s actually *not* a Prosperity Gospel guy, per se. Prosperity Gospel is actually a damnable heresy because it implies that one’s poverty is due entirely to ones’s own spiritual (not behavioral) deficiencies that can be easily cured solely by sending money. Ramsey’s looking to get paid for his proven useful *behavioral* work showing the simple-minded how to stop being slaves to debt. Avoiding debt *is* Biblical, after all. A maybe too… Read more »

ExNativeSon
ExNativeSon
4 years ago

Yeah, damn that Biology. I guess another way of looking at the biblical verse of “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?“ is the current day commandment, “Thou shall not Notice.”

Ben the Layabout
Ben the Layabout
Reply to  ExNativeSon
4 years ago

One of my favorite parables. The problem with many so-called leaders — business, political or moral — is that they have an entire lumber yard in their eye! 😀

ExNativeSon
ExNativeSon
Reply to  Ben the Layabout
4 years ago

Absolutely the entire lumber yard.

vxxc💂🏻‍♂️😉 Toxic masculinity vector
Reply to  ExNativeSon
4 years ago

Yeah they got the lumber yard, the forests, the whole thing.

Chances are they keep it.

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  ExNativeSon
4 years ago

please read the following verses after that. it clearly says, after you remove your own plank, help your brother. means that you can still tell your brother he is a lazy bum… after you stop being one with him. and bringing it back to race, that’s something i’ve noticed, in that the reverse of this verse occurs, almost Satanically: instead of helping brothers*, whites don’t look at any specks in their own eyes, and even enjoy them, while looking at the specks in blacks’ eyes and removing them. yet, not minding that the lower average black IQ makes at least… Read more »

Mark Stoval
Mark Stoval
4 years ago

There are very few Christians left in the US. There are still a lot of people who go to church once in a white and others who claim to be Christian but they are not. They don’t really believe. They belong to a “community” or a club. They do not belong to God. And so, they are very frightened of death. You could never have panicked my grandmother’s generation (she was born in 1918) with this mild version of the flu as people then knew they would die someday and were prepared to do so. Death before dishonor. The leaders… Read more »

ChrisZ
ChrisZ
4 years ago

The unrelenting hostility shown to Christianity by mainstream American and globalist culture seems like a recent development. Where does it come from? I was born in an America where a general Christian-Protestant ethos was assumed, approved, and supported. That was superseded by a secularist America, where Christianity was perceived as just one of many religions, all equally mixing truth and myth. It was a status downgrade, certainly, but not an outright negation. Arguably, the perception of Christianity that currently prevails throughout the culture is no longer a secularist one, but rather a Jewish one: i.e., that Christianity is uniquely false,… Read more »

MemeWarVet
MemeWarVet
Reply to  ChrisZ
4 years ago

(((Where does it come from?)))

vxxc💂🏻‍♂️😉 Toxic masculinity vector
Reply to  MemeWarVet
4 years ago

(((Who can say?)))

BadThinker
BadThinker
Reply to  ChrisZ
4 years ago

It’s older than it seems. Paul in Athens is a good start, as well as the other Martyrs of the Church. Christianity makes what seem to be unreasonable demands upon people – to accept their own rebellion and ask for mercy, without ever getting an answer from God. To many people across the ages, the loss of Pride one must take to do this is unthinkable. Hence Islam and “everything that happens is the will of Allah” on one end, and the Atheist “there is no reason anything happens” on the other. “But Thou knewest not, it seems, that no… Read more »

bilejones
Member
4 years ago

But it’s all going swimmingly.

I strolled through the living room yesterday where the wife was watching “Good Morning America” or similar and pointed out that she was being told how to celebrate Easter by a bunch of Jews.

She looked at me funny.

tristan
tristan
Reply to  bilejones
4 years ago

So the the real message of easter they were suggesting is to find some guy preaching against ursury and nail him on a wooden scaffold?

Forever Templar
Forever Templar
Reply to  tristan
4 years ago

In the Roman’s defense, eliminating an insurgent element is pretty sound strategy. Just is always guaranteed to work.

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  Forever Templar
4 years ago

He gave His life for His friends.

also, Pilate wasn’t threatened, he couldn’t care less about the Sanhedrin Jews’ religious insanity, and at least interested to learn more about “Truth”.

but, by the same token, he was indecisive, weak and thus easily convinced by the perfidious Jews to stick to the script and believe in Caesar’s earthly/idolatrous power only.

food for thought.

wiseguy
wiseguy
4 years ago

The divine law is the same for all peoples. Its implementation, however, will vary among them.

Ben the Layabout
Ben the Layabout
Reply to  wiseguy
4 years ago

Disagree. We immediately get into problems when we assume that anything “divine” exists. Only the physical universe exists. Its (known) laws are precise, immutable, implacable. Anything supernatural, by definition, cannot be part of the natural universe. If there were some “divine” law, we would already be following it. This is one thing the Adam & Eve myth* gets right: the choice of good versus evil, really it’s about the power to choose. We can choose whether to obey a moral (human-created) law. We cannot choose whether or not to obey Gravity, Electromagnetism or the sodium/potassium ion exchange at the cell… Read more »

Vizzini
Member
Reply to  Ben the Layabout
4 years ago

The universe’s known laws are anything but precise at the quantum level.

Your aggressive and probably willful misunderstanding of the term “divine law” seems characteristic of your style.

I don’t presume to speak for wiseguy, but in my case, never “reword” anything I say. I don’t need you attempting to interpret my own thoughts for me.

james wilson
james wilson
Member
Reply to  Ben the Layabout
4 years ago

The physical universe is no less devine than the human attempt, probably more so. The entire universe is supernatural. It’s like your nose, which you can’t see because it’s on your face. Because you can now, thanks to others, understand light, to a degree, electomagnatism, gravity, and relativity, to a degree, you take them for granted, as a given, and furthermore nobody and nothing gave it! Even Albert didn’t think that.

greyenlightenment
4 years ago

Trump still waffling on ;’reopening’ the economy. Trump cares more about about medical experts, media , political and business elites , than small & medium-sized business owners. Trump has made no effort to reach out to those most affected, that being businesses owners, who are also some of his biggest supporters. Over and over, Trump keeps trying to warm up to the very people who in 2015-2017 wanted him to fail, and still likely do.

vxxc💂🏻‍♂️😉 Toxic masculinity vector
Reply to  greyenlightenment
4 years ago

I think SBA= The Hunger Games.
Although – incredible if it happens the Fed is looking at direct lending to biz up to 10K employees.
IOW the Fed does for business what it does for banks.

Al from da Nort
Al from da Nort
Reply to  greyenlightenment
4 years ago

Grey; I think today’s media run Prog Party plan is to embrace the current authoritarianism, thinking that they can run out Trump in Nov and take the fearsome new machinery over intact. They will use the same technocrat scares they have been so hooked on for the last 30+ years. They act like they think they have Trump trapped: If he relaxes our 30 day free trial of socialism, people will die of COVID (they will anyway); blood is on his hands he’s toast in Nov.; OTOH, if he stays with the lockdown, the economy collapses and he gets voted… Read more »

Member
Reply to  Al from da Nort
4 years ago

I think this is the play that Trump needs to make. He needs to stop talking about opening things back up and just do it. Then Cuomo, Newsome, and all the other granstanding little shits are forced to own the economic collapse in their states.

Yves Vannes
Yves Vannes
Member
4 years ago

A number of dissident content creators are doing a string of movie reviews on YouTube.

The Announcement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=114&v=PPl_PMxI19U&feature=emb_title

The Lineup and Schedule:

https://guidetokulchur.org/

MemeWarVet
MemeWarVet
Reply to  Yves Vannes
4 years ago

Very cool! Thanks for sharing; I will be sure to partake in the content.

Wolf Barney
Wolf Barney
Reply to  Yves Vannes
4 years ago

That’s a really good lineup. Looking forward to the shows! Thanks!

d. deacon
d. deacon
4 years ago

great essay, Mr. Zman. very Easter friendly. i’d just like to add that, just like you mention in the last paragraph, Integralism can readily admit the race constant into the equation. it’ll simply mean some of the 7 levels of Heaven in Dante’s telling will be lighter and more immersed in contemplative prayer, while other levels will be darker and more immersed in gospel worship. yes, some will be higher than others, but everyone will be at their right place and not complain. besides, up until Caudillo Franco’s death at the latest, many conservative Catholics believed strongly in racial segregation… Read more »

BTP
Member
4 years ago

It is the open society that is the enemy. The sooner we admit it, the better. One of the excellent observations in Reno’s “Return of the Strong Gods,” was that even the conservatives were pitching the Open Society as the ideal. So, the Great Books programs at places like U. of Chicago, with its conservative emphasis on the Western canon, emphasized that canon _so that_ the Open Society could be preserved. From this perspective, the problem with the Left was that they were, when you really think about it, opposed to the Open Society. If this sounds like the sophisticated… Read more »

pyrrhus
pyrrhus
4 years ago

Well argued…certainly, the West cannot survive without Christianity as the dominant and State religion, which means the West is in a steep nose dive and shows no sign, except perhaps in Russia and Eastern Europe, of pulling out….
Meanwhile, in the stealth libertarian paradise of Arizona, traffic this morning is approaching normal levels, so a lot of people are going to jobs they are not supposed to have….

greyenlightenment
4 years ago

> The typical black neighborhood is nothing like the typical white neighborhood. Black culture remains stubbornly immune to modernity. The truth is, God may love us equally, but he gave us different continents as homelands for a reason. Blacks and other groups are good at using and embracing technology even if they may not be smart enough to create it, have you ever seen a back person without a cell phone? But plenty of white ppl don’t have one. A lot of SWPLs take pride in not using or minimizing technology , as some sort of act of social defiance.… Read more »

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  greyenlightenment
4 years ago

in short, the Church can be everywhere, just don’t expect the details to totally match from ethnonation to ethnonation (whether segregated or not).

Jim Smith
Jim Smith
4 years ago

I’m taking bets! Zman said, “Catholic integralism has a *traveling partner* in the Protestant sphere that is called Christian reconstructionism” (asterisks added). He uses the term “traveling partner”! Yet there’s absolutely no doubt that he is thoroughly acquainted with the linguistically homologous term “fellow traveler.” So here’s the bet: I bet he specifically considered using the term “fellow traveler” inside his beady head, but instead consciously chose to use the alternative phrase “traveling partner”. And he did so for a very specific reason. Anyone care to take the other side of the bet? Anyone? Anyone? 🙂

David Davenport
David Davenport
Reply to  Jim Smith
4 years ago

Christian Reconstructionism does not aim to be a fellow traveler with the Roman soi-disant “Catholic” Church.

Reconstructionism has an old time Protestant attitude about R.C.’s. Reconstruction means about the same thing as “Reformed” or Reformation” in the older lexicon. In other words, “not Roman Catholic.”

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  David Davenport
4 years ago

he means it’s a reactionary movement among Protestants, just like Integralism is reactionary Catholicism (many Integralists want confessional states back, the last Catholic monarchists among them too).

Franklin
Franklin
4 years ago

Our society is no less religious than any other. Religion does not cease to be religion when it begins to be called by other names.

If the essence of religion is the ascription to Nature of that which is in fact a work of Art, then religion has grown more powerful and more total than ever before.

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  Franklin
4 years ago

art is natural. so is religion.
of course, nature can also (be made to) degenerate.
ergo, degenerate art, ergo degenerate religion.

Karl McHungus
Karl McHungus
4 years ago

yeah, about black “christianity”. there are interesting articles/essays on just how blacks observe their version of christianity. it’s really just a thin veneer on top of african animism. they see jesus as a get-out-of-jail card, that kind of thing. in short, they don’t practice christianity at all.

MemeWarVet
MemeWarVet
Reply to  Karl McHungus
4 years ago

I’m not one to Cuck for the Blecks, but:

As long as they’re following the core doctrines correctly (ie Virgin Birth, Death, Burial, & Resurrection, No other way to heaven save shed blood of Christ), how they “do church” is their own business.

Karl McHungus
Karl McHungus
Reply to  MemeWarVet
4 years ago

you didn’t graduate high school, did you.

tristan
tristan
Reply to  Karl McHungus
4 years ago

I remember reading something similar about a Public Defender in the US who recounted a story of how it was not unusual for gangs of blacks to pray to Jesus for protection just before a court appearance. Even when they knew they were guilty.

Karl McHungus
Karl McHungus
Reply to  tristan
4 years ago

yep, and their female relative would reject plea bargains because jesus would get their men folk off.

james wilson
james wilson
Member
Reply to  Karl McHungus
4 years ago

True dat. A point might be made, however, that when they are “following the core doctrines correctly” Africans as a whole make for better Africans. The differences are more stark in Africa.

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  james wilson
4 years ago

yep, my experience is the same. even those silly nwords who praise the Lord for avoiding a possession or rape charge, they’d be much worse of a threat if they just believed in Ochun giving them magical powers/PCP to shoot up all the white devils in a bank. even among blacks you can tell the usually secular or Christian discriminate against the more African ones and their more backward customs; they just join ranks and play up the wewuzkangznshiet to spite whites (another example, black Muslims who use Islam as an antiwhite vehicle but are otherwise considered nonlegit by other… Read more »

Ben the Layabout
Ben the Layabout
Reply to  tristan
4 years ago
SidVic
SidVic
4 years ago

Further contemplation has brought several questions. What is the role of the church in our thing? Do we have allies within the church? Could they be useful as a conterbalance to the worst impulses of the jews? I’m so far removed from the church scene i’ve no idea where we stand. Integralism is too esoteric, academic and probaly ambitous . what are the practicalities and potential allainces that exist within the church?

G Lordon Giddy
G Lordon Giddy
Reply to  SidVic
4 years ago

The American church unfortunately has been infiltrated by Christian Zionism. Pence and Pompeo just two examples of conservative Christian Zionists in high places. Much of the rest of Protestantism has been captured by modernity. On the other hand Catholicism is damaged by the boy tiddling communists. The Christian church is very weak in the West. And I consider myself a Christian but it appalls me how weak that we have become. We either shill for Israel or shill for the feminized homosexual version of the church. Thus the easily conquered societal value system we call liberal democracy but is actually… Read more »

Ben the Layabout
Ben the Layabout
Reply to  G Lordon Giddy
4 years ago

Now based on my understanding of Chrsitianity, Jesus did not advocate buggery, but he WAS in so many words, a communist. If you are not familiar with the Bible, read no more than the book of Acts and tell me that the early Christians described therein, sharing communally according to need and so forth, were anything else? To this may I add: it is an example of a VOLUNTARY community. In political systems, you rarely find that participation is optional. This is a critical difference. Perhaps there are others. Ah yes, here’s one… Unlike the modern church, where they sprinkle… Read more »

3g4me
3g4me
Reply to  Ben the Layabout
4 years ago

Ben – Go layabout and give the aggressive atheism a rest, please. The adults are trying to have a discussion here.

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  Ben the Layabout
4 years ago

they still had private property, just shared it (or sold it and shared profits) with the other members of the community as needed. so yes, a voluntary community, with several stakeholders, in fact kinda like a current non-profit CORPORATION? geez, it was Catholicism who invented the term. also, do you even know what happens at Baptism? you are not saved yet at all. the Church never believed that, that’s why we have 7 sacraments, and the emphasis on “faith without works is dead”. (sure, the “get saved now” denominations will claim otherwise, and thus they treat their baptismal rites kinda… Read more »

Stina
Stina
Reply to  SidVic
4 years ago

Probably the best you could get from churches is in rural churches that already have a strong sense of community. If you can empower them as the backbone of the community, more-so than the city government, I think you could get somewhere. 1 Corinthians is pretty detailed on how a church should order itself… and it parallels well with how a new nation can be formed, as well. Capitalizing on what rural churches are already doing (reproducing, teaching their children, supporting their poor) and steering them to what else they could be doing, I think would make them powerful central… Read more »

Felix Krull
Member
Reply to  SidVic
4 years ago

Do we have allies within the church?

The church is the main motor behind the open borders movement, they’re worse than the kayaks.

UFO
UFO
Reply to  SidVic
4 years ago

Read the Bible, never forget its knowledge.

If you can’t find a pozzed church just keep reading the Bible. BTW even at the conservative Evangelical church I attended almost none of the men were virgins (except the ugly ones) and I suspect most of the women weren’t either.

Modern society is an ugly beast.

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  SidVic
4 years ago

at least for Catholics, one can try to observe pre-Vatican 2 traditions, which were not abrogated as the council’s conclusions were pastoral and not dogmatic. and even then, you have to tread carefully, as race is the hardest red pill and many have not taken it – even if they can kinda feel it when they attend services with Gregorian chant only and look at how pale and quiet mostly everyone is. (still, i think blacks can attend the Latin Mass no problem – though again, in their own communities, and probably most will need some more centuries of discipline… Read more »

Chet Rollins
Chet Rollins
4 years ago

> Christian ethics into secular law. Darren Beattie, the right-wing critic of multiculturalism, is very opposed to integralism, calling Vermeule a dangerous joke.

Vermuele is worse than a joke. He’s likely a fed. He wrote a paper on cognitive infiltration and the last several years he has just started personally implementing it.

That’s why he says edgy stuff like imprisoning Lutherans for his fringe creds while promoting the wider claims of globohomo in regards to the authoritarian administrative state and mass third-world immigration.

james wilson
james wilson
Member
4 years ago

In America the colonies had different official religions. There were issues with that. With the opening of USA inc. the operating assumption became religion would form the individual who represented government, which worked for a time. As we see on these pages the religion of govenrnment has infiltrated most of the Christian religions in America. Tocquevilles thoughts–“As long as religion relies upon feelings which are the consolation of every suffering, it may attract the human heart……(but) by uniting with different political powers, can…form only burdensome alliances. In Europe, Christianity has allowed itself to be closely linked with the powers of… Read more »

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  james wilson
4 years ago

the problem with Tocqueville is that he assumed republic (and learned liberals) always good, and monarchy (and dumb conservatives) always bad. not even Star Wars is so infantile. he couldn’t see that “the powers of the world” were going to infiltrate secular republics as well, even easier than under Christian monarchy, which took (((them))) centuries to unravel. also, the Second French Empire was clearly Catholic, so obviously when it fell the Church wanted to keep their influence, in spite of the rabid secular Third Republicans. eventually the Church lost the struggle and had to sign the laicite compromise, by which… Read more »

james wilson
james wilson
Member
Reply to  d.deacon
4 years ago

He believed no such thing. He wrote that freedom was found in many different forms of government and it was not exclusve to democratic government, rather, when freedom was not a part of democracy it was the most dangerous tyranny.

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  james wilson
4 years ago

well i was just responding to the quote, where he seems biased to democracy. then again, the Church at the time was too close to absolutist royal power for its own good too, forgetting the more balanced medieval monarch ideal envisioned by Saint Thomas Aquinas. not to mention, the political post-Enlightenment concept of freedom isn’t always the same as divinely ordained freedom. but yes, a democracy needs more of it than a monarchy, which really just needs freedom to revolt and/or some sort of periodical plebiscite/vote of no-confidence that sends the king home for a period if needed. you know,… Read more »

Al from da Nort
Al from da Nort
Reply to  james wilson
4 years ago

James; I don’t see how you can say that “under the (Holy Roman) Empire the (Roman Catholic) Church took no part in politics”. To the contrary, its representatives were at the very core of its politics. As evidence, 3 of 7 Prince Electors (who elected the next emperor when the old one died and had some legislative power) were Catholic Prelates. Specifically, these were The Archbishop of Mainz, who was titular head of The Imperial Diet, The Archbishop of Cologne and the Archbishop of Trier. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Diet_(Holy_Roman_Empire) I don’t think that religion and politics have ever existed truly independent of each… Read more »

james wilson
james wilson
Member
Reply to  Al from da Nort
4 years ago

You may be right and Tocqueville wrong. Or, the church at that point exercised a fraction of the power it gathered over time.

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  Al from da Nort
4 years ago

Tocqueville was speaking about Napoleon’s nephew’s Second French Empire. and even then he was wrong, the Empire was ultra-Catholic.

james wilson
james wilson
Member
Reply to  d.deacon
4 years ago

No, he wasn’t. Tocqueville did not live to see that short lived Empire.

Dennis Roe
Dennis Roe
4 years ago

Life is Tribal, Always was, always will be. Go to prison, you’ll figure that out in 5 fucking seconds without a college professor explaining it to you. The Jews integrated and co-opted your political, banking, educational and media systems and now they’re Mindfucking you with the biggest Psyop in history. Go back to the Christian ideals of your ancestors, the basic Truths.

abprosper
abprosper
4 years ago

Good article. My takeaway from all this is is that our societies can’t be preserved by integralism or civic nationalism. This is because big universalist anything, business, state, church , media is poison and the only good it does in terms of long term human well being is sometimes to protect smaller societies from other cultures big ideas. In terms of large parts of Europe intergralism is as ludicrous an idea as bringing back haruspication or the old Religio Roma . When the elite and the people alike no longer believe in something in large numbers its no basis for… Read more »

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  abprosper
4 years ago

yeah, and the Irish are not going back to Celtic folk customs, instead they just waste away at pubs watching rugger or footie. not to mention, some of the few neopagans tend to be annoying Trump-hexing feminist wannabe witches. we are already back in the Religio Roma times. the current Caesars of the world just back whatever bread and circuses and fake idol worship desired by the elites. lest we forget, the folk religions of the ancient world were actually very top down, the emperor was pontifex maximus of all accepted cults and doted patronage on many contradictory ones, whose… Read more »

Senator Brundlefly
Senator Brundlefly
4 years ago

If the Constitutional order of the Founders can devolve into the current order, so will this Integralist order. But when that happens Christianity will be tarnished. Separation of Church and state was supposed to benefit the church as well. Scandal and corruption inevitably follow power. Look at the Catholic perderast sex scandal. “My kingdom is not of this Earth”

BadThinker
BadThinker
Reply to  Senator Brundlefly
4 years ago

I encourage everyone to read The Grand Inquisitor. http://www.online-literature.com/dostoevsky/2884/

“Knowest Thou not that, but a few centuries hence, and the whole of mankind will have proclaimed in its wisdom and through its mouthpiece, Science, that there is no more crime, hence no more sin on earth, but only hungry people”

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  BadThinker
4 years ago

i recommend the whole novel, at least once before dying, like Tolstoy did.

Tarl Cabot
Tarl Cabot
4 years ago

Deneen in particular elegantly elucidates the trajectory of liberal democracy, as it “progressively“ subverts first Authority, then Tradition, and finally Nature itself.

Unfortunately, like most Integralists, Deneen rejects biology as determinative, and retreats into a Dreher-like neo-monasticism. Even if such communities are in some sense viable, Globoschlomo will not leave the monasteries in peace, anymore than Cromwell did.

Excellent essay Z.

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  Tarl Cabot
4 years ago

besides, the monastics lived in a time where if you got lost in the wilderness you may truly get lost. ergo, they had an easier time escaping Globoschlomo. and, they always returned to the world to preach, give aid, even influence politics. as for race, the Integralist majorites that are cucked on it seem to be too influenced by the American Catholic “we are the world” experience; forgetting that it was Americanist ideals such as this and others, which led to modernism infiltrating the Church and the Latin Rite being suppressed. ironically, the Latin Rite survived longer in America precisely… Read more »

Jack Boniface
Jack Boniface
Member
4 years ago

A pretty good discussion of this issue from one of the few remaining decent Jesuits:
https://maritain.nd.edu/ama/Human/Human303.pdf

GetBackUp
GetBackUp
4 years ago
thekrustykurmudgeon
4 years ago

why do you have to give a name for your beliefs. David Bazelon was probably the most influential circuit court judge of the 20th century. He didn’t have a name for his philosophy. He just called it like he saw it.

tristan
tristan
Reply to  thekrustykurmudgeon
4 years ago

Hmm.. the son of Lena (Krasnovsky) and Israel Bazelon.

“Bazelon had a broad view of the reach of the Constitution.Conservatives viewed the judge as dangerous for his tendency to rule in favor of the lower class, the mentally ill, and defendants.”

“Bazelon authored many far-reaching decisions on topics as diverse as the environment, the eighteen-year-old vote, discrimination, and the insanity defense”

Seems pretty obvious what his (((beliefs))) were. Anything to undermine the traditional Anglo common law and saving the “oppressed”.

Give me a break. Same old same old.

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  tristan
4 years ago

the insanity defense that keeps Charlie Manson alive. (((brilliant))).

notruecatholic
notruecatholic
4 years ago

Integralist are not pro open society. I think it was a bad choice of word. We are against racialism. What is the proper civil and legal relation between races under the common good, is a different subject than state/religion relation of an integralist society. Catholicism condemn some racial view explicitly (like the famous encyclical against nazism). But more moderate racial policy have not been condemned by the magisterium to my knowledge. They might become so. and historically, catholic theology and legal tradition is very communitarian : https://www.academia.edu/217551/Domestic_Slavery_in_Renaissance_Italy But the subject is open to debate, disagreement is legitimate. I oppose your… Read more »

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  notruecatholic
4 years ago

i recommend this article below. i do agree though, that Catholics are not idiots who think “there is no such thing as race”. they simply do not pay attention to the concept as much, but still do so. specially since Catholicism expanded through many multiracial areas which had to be segregated for centuries (even in medieval times, Jews and Moors had their own quarters). the problem is more at least since last century or two, and specially after V2 pretty much gave the Church’s power to its suicidal Marxist equalizing universalist wing. these radicals, backed by apostates and (((others))), not… Read more »

notruecatholic
notruecatholic
Reply to  d.deacon
4 years ago

No offense but the occidental observer is not really something I read, more ethno-centric than I am. And I got some stress right now to deal with. Maybe later. If you need to know my position on it in a more detailed manner, basically something between Edward Feser and sancrucensis. Not asking you to read it, the summary is simple : a sober middle ground between nationalism and internationalism.

https://sancrucensis.wordpress.com/2017/02/04/the-needy-immigrant-nationalism-globalism-and-the-universal-destination-of-goods/

https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2017/10/liberty-equality-fraternity.html
https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2019/10/john-paul-ii-in-defense-of-nation-and.html

vxxc💂🏻‍♂️😉 Toxic masculinity vector
4 years ago

We stopped living or perhaps pretending we were a liberal democracy a month ago. We live in Venezuela early 2000s. The Shopkeeper middle class, working class Fronde du Trump is over. Trump is now a puppet and presides over the Hunger Games for 80% and Hallmark Cards for the top 15-20%. Trump is now “Presidential” meaning complying with the Ruling Class through the Veil of The Experts. The Hunger Games Events; PPP and Disaster EIDL relief. And the checks. 2/3 are fixed and farce. The last one the checks will continue. The Follow on Hunger Game; EXIT. I talk to… Read more »

vxxc💂🏻‍♂️😉 Toxic masculinity vector

PPP SBA EIDL are The Hunger Games for the Middle Class.

The actual Hunger Games mass participation; EXIT.

I suggest you run immediately if you are so inclined. Slots are limited. One more thing – transfer your loyalties (such as you have) immediately. You don’t want ties coming back this way.

TomA
TomA
4 years ago

Nuts and bolts. Religion (in all it’s varieties) is the codification of ancient wisdom that evolved in each distinct environment of ancestral evolution. You don’t get the exact same panoply of wisdom everywhere; each locale is unique. Over the long run, wisdom adopted and passed along will help each cohort of our species survive and thrive in their ancestral environment. And then everything gets mangled and chaotic when people are moved out of their ancestral home.

bilejones
Member
Reply to  TomA
4 years ago

Agree.

Jim Smith
Jim Smith
4 years ago

An excellent, insightful essay, but discouraging in the end: The many problems with Christian Integralism are limned with it being bashed by the usual suspects (and then some). In the end it is found to be wanting—no surprise there—even as we are presented with an unfortunate either-or choice: Integralism or civic nationalism. Integralism, it is said, carries the day despite its many, many faults.

There’s gotta be another way, a better way. There’s got to be another choice.

BTP
Member
Reply to  Jim Smith
4 years ago

Smith – there isn’t. The world must be confronted as it is, not through an ideological prism. Integralism comes closer to solving the big problems we have right now.

d.deacon
d.deacon
4 years ago

wonder if you read this before this essay, Mr Zman – a based Catholic politely dissenting with the usually smart (but sadly blue-pilled on race) E Michael Jones. what i like best is his quotes from traditional Catholic sources that validate the concept of genos and heredity while staying within Catholic orthodoxy. https://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2019/12/10/ethnos-needs-logos-and-genos/ particularly liked this quoted excerpt from 1908 Catholic Encyclopedia: Character is the expression of the personality of a human being. . . . A man’s character is the resultant of two distinct classes of factors: the original or inherited elements of his being, and those which he… Read more »

Joshua Shalet
Joshua Shalet
4 years ago

Read secular by design by Alan W Cecil

Ben the Layabout
Ben the Layabout
Reply to  Joshua Shalet
4 years ago

At least the Amazon blurb. Thanks for tip.

Ben the Layabout
Ben the Layabout
4 years ago

Some broader thoughts, or voicing doubts more accurately: The first problem is: How do we define what is moral? Yes we can agree on various standards, and these may find their way into rules and laws. But the problem with any democracy is: Is it fair for the majority to enforce their collective will upon the minority? Rather than dogmatically answer that “yes” or “no”, I’ll make a quick aside note that Dogma is a chronic problem in all human regimes. Religion has plenty of faults to answer for, but as Z notes, liberal democracy functions in many ways like… Read more »

Vizzini
Member
Reply to  Ben the Layabout
4 years ago

My theme is this: morality and what is “right” is whatever you think it is!

Congratulations on being thoroughly modern and degenerate. That’s the Hollywood and academic script regurgitated like a good puppy.

Ben has learned to love Big Brother.

Member
Reply to  Ben the Layabout
4 years ago

“Notice I am not taking a position, but I AM showing there are no easy answers to many questions.” In general, I agree with you. I’m an atheist, for the same reasons cited by Jean Meslier long ago, and more recently by the likes of Coyne, Dawkins, and Ehrman. In short, it makes no sense to me to try to explain complicated things we don’t understand by assuming the existence of a God, an even more complicated thing we don’t understand. When it comes to the quote above, I would claim that there are not only no easy answers, but… Read more »

RealBill
RealBill
4 years ago

If the events described in the Old Testament had actually taken place— if King Solomon had reigned as the wisest man in history, whose wisdom was acclaimed throughout the ancient world; if the Hebrews had spent 400 years enslaved in Egypt, during which time one of their own had ascended to second-in-command to Pharaoh, and saved the country from famine; if the Red Sea had swallowed the entire armor-clad Egyptian army, chariots and all, including the Pharaoh; if 600,000 men (plus women and children) had spent 40 years wandering a relatively-small section of desert; if those Hebrews had conquered ‘the… Read more »

tristan
tristan
Reply to  RealBill
4 years ago

Some slightly non mainstream historians make a convincing case that the Jews are really the Hyksos who were expelled from egypt after invading and ruling Northern Egypt for a few hundred years.

The exodus of these people was north into palestine and it seems basically the Old testament is a mish mash of these times in Egypt, an accountant of the Hyksos pharonic lines and creation out of whole cloth of a history of persecution to make them into the victims, from a people that spent a long time as an occupying force in another land.

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  tristan
4 years ago

it seems to me instead that the Israelites and other tribes of Canaan were conquered by and/or made tributaries of Egypt. then they gained favor, possibly being the Hyksos, before being resented and all that Exodus stuff.

at any rate, atheists losing their minds about exactly 600 thousand Jews in the Sinai Peninsula, or 6 days of creation, or whatever, is what we get with ultra-literalist Prots, which wouldn’t have existed without the sola scriptura fallacy.

not to mention, too many Prots love the (((Masoretic))) texts.

Ben the Layabout
Ben the Layabout
Reply to  RealBill
4 years ago

Spot on. You are a modern Voltaire! If you need skepticism of religion, read him. Even though nearly 300 years old, he noted many of the points you make in your posting.

Have you ever noticed that the only unpardonable sin in many religions is to question the tenets? Even our own once-fine country’s founding documents, which overthrew a prior government, make it a serious offense to overthrow a government 🙂

BadThinker
BadThinker
Reply to  Ben the Layabout
4 years ago

There’s Religion, then there is religion. All have a religion. Some have a Religion. But don’t pretend for a minute that anyone has ‘transcended’ religion. The “I F-ing Love Science” people would like a word.

Myth is not the same as Fact, and to claim that Religion has no value because of some myths and allegories is boring, base, uncreative atheism that Aquinas could bat aside even as a child.

bilejones
Member
Reply to  RealBill
4 years ago

Agree. The degree that the West believes (or pretends to believe) the Jews “History” is astonishing.
Their line about spending 40 years wandering around a sand filled Walmart parking lot has always made me smile.

tristan
tristan
Reply to  bilejones
4 years ago

Its almost like the monotheistic aspect of the religion was invented quite recently and written just post Rome (relatively speaking ). As lots of stuff like the zodiacs on the floors of 1st century AD synagogues in Judea have been conveniently forgotten.

BadThinker
BadThinker
Reply to  tristan
4 years ago

Chesterton talks about this in the Everlasting Man. Polytheism is the invention of civilization. Monotheism is older than dirt.

d.deacon
d.deacon
Reply to  RealBill
4 years ago

the archaeologists found Sodom and Gomorrah. but sure, more handwaving and you can make that go away too. they were influenced not to find anything, anyway, by (((certain people))).

about the other findings… surely?
we haven’t found squat. all we found is we inherit some things and learn others. no such thing as common morality without faith, save the Noahide law – and even that was law from above.
tacking “evolutionary” in front of it doesn’t solve anything. evolution is a process, neither a particular nor a universal, and thus not a basis for anything.