Lost Hoppe

Libertarianism comes in for a reasonable amount of criticism on this side of the great divide, mostly for its tendency to side with the Left on cultural issues. Libertarianism, at its best, is low-tax liberalism. The common and well-supported form of libertarianism is the version that functions as lipstick on the pig of corporate excess. The people who claim to champion individual rights always seem to be defending those rights being trampled by massive global companies answerable to no one.

There are some exceptions within the libertarian fever swamp. Ron Paul is still remembered fondly by many on this side of the great divide. He was their guide into the world of political realism. He was always careful to avoid taboo subjects, but there were plenty of paleocons in the baggage train to help guide those swept up in the Ron Paul moment toward sensible politics. The Ron Paul moment turned out to be a waystation for what is now the dissident right.

Another exception is the libertarian theorist Hans-Hermann Hoppe. Greg Hood and Chris Roberts from American Renaissance have posted a new podcast on Hoppe and his most popular work, Democracy: The God that Failed. It is a good discussion of Hoppe, his brand of libertarianism and the arguments in his book. This podcast is part of a series on various writers relevant to dissident politics. The show on Wilmot Robertson is especially good, as few remember him.

One thing that was missed in the review of Hoppe’s book is that he was one of the first people to notice a peculiar feature of democracy. That is, as soon as the idea of democracy is planted in a society, the franchise expands rapidly. Societies can reject the core idea of democracy, but still have limited participation through elections, which was the case in early America. Once the society accepts the idea of democracy, all limits on the franchise quickly give way to democratic zeal.

Hoppe observed this in his book, but he offered no explanation for it. He just accepts it as a force of nature, noting how the franchise expanded in every Western country as soon as democracy was introduced. We saw this in America. In the 20th centur,y as the country transformed from a republic into a social democracy, the franchise quickly started to expand to include all men, then women, then blacks. Now we are extending the vote to criminals, foreigners, and the imaginary.

One reason for this is the very nature of democracy. In a world of fifty percent plus one there will always be a large minority unhappy with the result. In order to avoid conflict, the natural elites form parties, which allows them to form a consensus around a set of compromises on the important issues. This is something that was the norm in the 20th century, whether it was in multi-party parliamentary systems or the two-party bicameral system in America. Liberal democracy was about consensus.

While that greatly reduces the number of people who feel left out of the result, it creates a new problem. Reformers now need to break the consensus in order to get the changes they think are required. That is difficult, so they instead look to increase the number of those outside the consensus. Put another way, the reformer looks for new voters, rather than trying to challenge old voters. Get enough new voters and the outsiders can challenge the prevailing consensus.

In America, expansion of the franchise parallels reform efforts. The social reformers of the late 19th and early 20th century were also the driving force behind expanding the franchise to women. Extending the franchise to blacks came with social reforms like the elimination of free association. Today, the people chanting about democracy are also demanding the vote be given to foreigners. Open borders are a way to create a permanent revolution against the prevailing consensus.

Again, this is not something Hoppe addressed, but it does suggest that the primary reason libertarians favor open borders is they share the same reformist impulse that exists on the Left. They instinctively seek to break the consensus, which in their case is their idea of statism. The fact that libertarians never try to think through the ramifications of open borders suggests they are not acting on practical considerations, but rather on an instinctive sense that it is good for them.

Of course, there is a natural limit to democracy’s expansive tendency. Once every human on earth can vote for the next American president, there are no more worlds to conquer for the democrats. Long before that, however, democracy becomes too unstable to maintain a consensus of any sort for any duration. That seems to be happening now, when half the country in unhappy with every election result and the consensus that is implied in the result. America is shaking itself to pieces.

Hoppe is a good reminder that even the most ridiculous ideas can be useful in the right hands, if only as a warning. In the case of libertarianism, its utility was always in its use as a critique of liberal excess. Libertarian economics was an excellent antidote to central planning. Natural rights are useful in challenging authoritarianism. In the case of Hoppe, his economic defense of monarchism is useful in understanding the inherent dangers and defects of liberal democracy.


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Frip
Member
3 years ago

I don’t know much about Jackie Kennedy. But the way she talks is creepy. It was common for society women back then to speak in a self-consciously sophisticated, lady-like manner. Much influenced by early Hollywood. But her speaking manner is beyond that. It’s like mental ward stuff. Am I the only one hearing this? There’s a lack of affect there. Like an overly feminine catatonic schizophrenic. Maybe this is another reason why John started popping pills. I don’t know how she spoke without cameras around. Maybe she reverted to normal mode. I don’t know man. Either way, I’m telling you,… Read more »

Carl B.
Carl B.
Reply to  Frip
3 years ago

She married a very unattractive Greek shipping tycoon for his money. Jackie Kennedy was a perfectly normal upper-class, shit-lib White woman.

Bootstrapper
Member
3 years ago

What we’re witnessing is another ‘phase-transition’ in the process known as Anacyclosis. As the process runs its cycles – from monarchy/dictatorship, to aristocracy/junta, to “democracy” and back again to monarchy/dictatorship, the thing to notice is how (political) power becomes ever more diluted as the cycles run their course over time. But this dilution leads inevitably to (political) paralysis, exactly as described above. The Divided States is one existential crisis away from the phase-change that will usher in a dictator. What form this crisis takes and who reacts to it most effectively will determine the nature of this dictatorship.

TomA
TomA
Reply to  Bootstrapper
3 years ago

OK, more esoterica and high-minded discourse. Yes, this pattern of human affairs in the modern civilized era (e.g the past few millennia) has been repetitive because it is driven by our human nature (read proclivities written into our DNA by a few hundred thousand years of evolution). What’s new however, is the advent and widespread implementation of artificial selection by a sentient species for the first time in the history of life on Earth. How does this change the anacyclosis dynamic? We are now at risk of morphing into a herd, hive-like, or flocking species as a result of artificial… Read more »

Ben the Layabout
Ben the Layabout
Reply to  TomA
3 years ago

Your analysis seems correct as far as it goes. But I ask: What system will support the sheeple, the eaters, whatever you’d like to call the ever-rising share of total population that are, in evolution’s terms, excess baggage? Or put another way, there is an ever-increasing share of the population that is non-productive that must be supported by the productive. At some point, a limit is reached. Or worse, the system collapses, slowly or rapidly. Imagine Sub-Saharan Africa today. Now imagine it with even less outside support. Artificial selection works, but only as long as exists an artificial system (civilization)… Read more »

JohnWayne
JohnWayne
Reply to  Ben the Layabout
3 years ago

Dysgenics, devolution, radical egalitarianism, socialism, are a reaction to the feeling that life is not fair, as In fact, it isn’t.

Some tribes are “superior” in some significant way, thus causing unequal outcomes, feelings of jealously and envy – “It’s not fair!” “Math, SATs, and testing is racist!”

If we can’t improve the inferior tribe, then we’ll handicap the superior tribe. In Kurt Vonnegut’s Harrison Bergeron, attractive people must wear a mask, light footed ballerinas are weighted down, and smart people wear noise making radios to distract them. Mediocrity is rewarded while excellence is penalized.

TomA
TomA
Reply to  Ben the Layabout
3 years ago

The models suggest that an authoritarian entity (likely a national government or dictator) will continue redistributive policies as long as feasible, followed by rationing, followed by euthanasia of the elderly & seriously infirm, followed by population-wide birth control, followed by societal collapse at the extremis limit.

Paintersforms
Paintersforms
3 years ago

Individual rights + selfless attitude = happy society.

Individual rights + selfish attitude = America 2021.

Collective rights + selfless attitude = utopia.

Collective rights + selfish attitude = South Africa

Friday night kindergarten thinking…

FeinGul
FeinGul
3 years ago

“ Today, the people chanting about democracy are also demanding the vote be given to foreigners”

And taking it by fraud from whites.

Cameron
Cameron
3 years ago

My path to this side of the divide was quick and direct and happened in 2001. Pat Buchanan to Peter Brimelow/VDARE.

Btw I found a copy of Wilmot Robertson’s book in of all places a Catholic thrift store years ago.

Frip
Member
Reply to  Cameron
3 years ago

I first heard of Wilmot in the early 90’s while following the Buckley vs. Sobran conflict. I think it was Midge Dector (now there’s a soft ‘n sexy name) who told everyone that Sobran reads something called Instauration, “a publication for racists and antisemites.” I was thrilled to find out there was something true Right out there. I tried like crazy to find it and figure out how to get a subscription but failed. Practically speaking, this was pre-internet, and I didn’t live in a major city like NY or San Francisco where I could ask some kooky bookstore owner… Read more »

JR Wirth
JR Wirth
Reply to  Frip
3 years ago

Can you imagine how insufferable Buckley would be if he was alive today? All the hand wringing over orange man, etc. Invited on CNN with dandruff laden suit jacket…

usNthem
usNthem
Reply to  Cameron
3 years ago

It’s a great book. The sad thing is it reads like it was written yesterday.

Tars Tarkas
Tars Tarkas
Reply to  Cameron
3 years ago

I wish I could say mine was so swift and that is even granting that I’ve been race-aware for as long as I can remember. It took me quite a long time.

Cameron
Cameron
Reply to  Tars Tarkas
3 years ago

No problem- glad you’re here!

Steve
Steve
Reply to  Cameron
3 years ago

My journey to this camp came about during Bush I reign and the ensuing mess at the end of Gulf War I. I was on active duty then and recall most of the senior officers chatting about this at various times, usually during chow and they – to a person – were voting for Perot due to the fact that Bush had disappointed them greatly with the whole Tienanmen Square incident. I can still recall our XO saying how furious he was was over the fact that Bush had publicly said that “Stability is the name of the game” when… Read more »

Hans Peter
Hans Peter
3 years ago

Don’t be a bigot, everyone has a right to come to America and vote for the CPUSA.
You have the right to work and pay for it all, comrade.
Train your replacement with a happy face or no soup for you deplorable untermenschen scum.
Ummm…the democracy Kool-Aid is delicious and now in Jonestown flavor.
Utopia is gonna work this time because muh faculty lounge.
Forward! Yes we can.

Spingerah
Spingerah
Reply to  Hans Peter
3 years ago

How sweet the day will be when faculty and their minions reap a just reward.

TomA
TomA
Reply to  Spingerah
3 years ago

To be effective in achieving a goal, you must first visualize it. This helps to focus the mind and enables subconscious problem-solving skills to swing into action with respect to difficult or intractable dilemma.

trackback
3 years ago

[…] ZMan does some sociology. […]

karl mchungus
karl mchungus
3 years ago

now do cancer

filler for comment checker

Anonymous White Male
Anonymous White Male
3 years ago

“The Ron Paul moment turned out to be a waystation for what is now the dissident right.”

I can’t help but wonder about Rand Paul. He seems to be one of the few rational players in the federal government, but nobody gets into the Senate without being eminently blackmailable. I can’t help feel he is just a stalking horse, though I haven’t seen many episodes of his career that would indicate this. Any thoughts?

Barnard
Barnard
Reply to  Anonymous White Male
3 years ago

Rand Paul’s 2016 Presidential campaign, where he spent time sucking up to Al Sharpton and calling himself a “Detroit Republican” was insanity. He spent a significant chunk of campaign time on this, parroting all the idiotic black outreach slogans Conservatism, Inc. makes and creating some new ones of his own. Shockingly, this did not translate into campaign donations or votes among rural, white Iowans and he dropped out after getting 5th in the Iowa Caucuses. If Rand has wised up since then is hard to know, but I am going to with probably not much. I wouldn’t consider him any… Read more »

JR Wirth
JR Wirth
Reply to  Barnard
3 years ago

Libertarianism, just like so many other things became crystalized in the 1970s culture. Forever soul searching in this post MLK white guilt. It’s a generational thing, not just a political thing. It’s maddening. A whole generation will just have to shuffle on to their graves before this changes. Even if I accepted the perceived racial injustice of blacks. I just don’t care. Never did. Never will. My response has always been “I’m sorry you’re not white. There’s nothing I can do about that.”

(((They))) Live
(((They))) Live
Reply to  Barnard
3 years ago

His black out reach wasn’t to win the black vote, it was to try and win some normie white votes, from the type of tards who say stuff like the democrats are the real racists

Retards vote too

Drew
Drew
Reply to  Anonymous White Male
3 years ago

He lives in Kentucky for a reason. While there is certainly some amount of political corruption, the state isn’t big potatoes for party bigwigs, and most people are religious and scrupulous, even the left-wingers. As such, irregularities at the state and local levels are (relatively) more honest and reflective of voters. Voters are also more pragmatic and less principled, caring more for party affiliation than ideology. In all, it means that ideologues can get past party gatekeepers without getting (too) dirty, while being fairly easy to sideline at the federal level. Since I live in Kentucky and freelance in it’s… Read more »

Ostei Kozelskii
Member
Reply to  Anonymous White Male
3 years ago

Rand Paul operates squarely within the system of electoral politics. He is, therefore, irrelevant to the essential problems that beset us. Our solutions and our leaders will be extra-political.

bako
bako
Reply to  Anonymous White Male
3 years ago

Rand Paul is sponsoring a bill currently that will increase immigration and
chain migration. see “temporary-family-visitation-act”

>S. Senators Rand Paul (R-KY) and Richard Blumenthal (D-CT) introduced the
Temporary Family Visitation Act that would establish a new B-3 nonimmigrant
category allowing U.S. citizens and permanent residents to petition for their
family members for temporary visits. [from rand paul’s senate website]

Hemid
Hemid
Reply to  Anonymous White Male
3 years ago

Not our guy and not our enemy. He’d be the median American politician if our elections weren’t fake.

Frip
Member
Reply to  Anonymous White Male
3 years ago

Never trust a guy with curly hair. Unless he’s this guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1Sw8fe9hJI&ab_channel=PaulHarrell

Sidvic
Sidvic
Member
Reply to  Frip
3 years ago

Lol, im a subscriber

Spingerah
Spingerah
Reply to  Frip
3 years ago

Excellent practical information.
Any bets on how long before jutube bans him ?

Spingerah
Spingerah
Reply to  Spingerah
3 years ago

Video from last week. He has been demonitized.
Bitchute Mr. HARRELL

BTP
Member
Reply to  Frip
3 years ago

I saw someone write that Paul’s channel was basically the PBS gun show, if PBS would ever have a gun show. Since then, I’ve enjoyed imagining Harrell’s show running after reruns of Bob Ross.

Gedeon
Gedeon
Reply to  BTP
3 years ago

Buffman’s channel is great for ammo tests.
Ray Sanchez (tbacray) and suppressornation are great for suppressor tests.

Infected Outdoors is good for thermal optics and hog eradication education.

Mrgunsngear and garandthumb are also very good general channels.

imbroglio
imbroglio
3 years ago

Mises’ version of Austrian economics, spelled out in “Human Action,” is founded on the concept of praexology: the autonomy of the individual participant who acts to satisfy “their” wants and needs. Remove that participant and the model doesn’t work. Still, Mises proposed that socialism fails because there’s no way adequately to price anything. Yet if socialism is the means by which a ruling party rules, it may not matter that resources fail to be allocated to their most efficient use. It may be the constants of human nature that ultimately account for socialism’s failure, something that needs to be experienced… Read more »

JohnSmith
JohnSmith
Reply to  imbroglio
3 years ago

Is “socialism” actually a failure if it succeeds in lavishly rewarding the ruling oligarchs and suppressing resistance? Sure, the proles don’t get what they were promised, and maybe it’s not economically “efficient” but what of that?

mikebravo
mikebravo
Reply to  JohnSmith
3 years ago

If you think of socialism as all the goodies in the hands of the ruling elite and all dissent leading to gulag it is a resounding success.

karl mchungus
karl mchungus
Reply to  imbroglio
3 years ago

the trouble with socialism is that there is no incentive to work harder than the absolute minimum to hold your job. almost every job is tied to political reliability, and not ability. so everything is done shittily, if its done at all. everything is inverted, teachers earn more than doctors. no one will do a shitty job willingly, since it doesn’t may more than a non-shitty job. everything has to be coerced out of the population so the society is slow and unresponsive. all the upper middle class people playing at revolution are going to be shocked as fuck when… Read more »

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
Reply to  karl mchungus
3 years ago

I hear that socialist Scandinavia was a pretty sweet place before the immigrant invasions.

White people can do socialism just fine, so long as they keep their country white. Race > Economic System.

One could argue that an attraction to socialism necessarily entails an attraction to open borders. Perhaps, but Jack London is a strong counterexample.

Pickle Rick
Pickle Rick
Reply to  LineInTheSand
3 years ago

You mean like socialism of a…national kind?

Ostei Kozelskii
Member
Reply to  LineInTheSand
3 years ago

I’m nobody’s socialist. However, when I look at the destruction and mayhem created by AINO’s capitalist system, the gap between it and socialism narrows appreciably.

karl mchungus
karl mchungus
Reply to  LineInTheSand
3 years ago

scandinavia is not socialist. norway has tons of oil money, too. being ethnically homogenous was the key. and now that sweden has brought in muslims, it’s turning to shit.

Ben the Layabout
Ben the Layabout
Reply to  karl mchungus
3 years ago

I’m no fan of socialism, communism or its fellow travelers. Yet why did (or do) such manifestly dysfunctional political systems endure for so long? An often overlooked reason is the black market, underground economy, call it what you will. It almost always exists to one degree or another. In dire times and places, whether the old Soviet Union or warn-torn Europe, it is often the only way that real goods and services are exchanged. Yes, often at high prices, payable in other goods and services, real money or heck, maybe even the local paper money perhaps at high discount. Yes,… Read more »

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
Reply to  Ben the Layabout
3 years ago

Ben (or whomever is interested), do you believe that there should be any social safety net? Imagine that local charities are nonexistent in an area or overwhelmed. Do you want poor, old people or children to die? If not, doesn’t that make you some kind of socialist? I’m not playing semantic games. I’m sincere. For what it’s worth, I could probably tolerate living in a society where poor people die, if I thought it was restraining the growth of government, but I am part of a small minority, even among white men. Most people want some kind of social safety… Read more »

bako
bako
Reply to  imbroglio
3 years ago

Praxeology is a pseudo-science like Freudianism (is it the right-wing equivalent?), it is retarded to think economics can be deducted from a priori principles of human actions, totally independent from observed reality. When these deductions don’t match reality its hand-waved away, since it reveals the pseudo-science it is.

Why do people trust century old Austrian-Jewish pseudo-sciences, I do not understand.

Gedeon
Gedeon
Reply to  imbroglio
3 years ago

$Price is just one data point to begin pricing risk on the way to allocating scarce capital. The central achievement of chaotic capital allocation, the opposite of centralized allocation, is that individuals don’t want to lose and try to make decisions about capital allocation that are consistent with the goals of wealth preservation, first, and growth second. Socialism collapses because the capital allocators no longer care on a spiritual level about losses or bad decisions ions because there is virtually no personal negative feedback loop. Profit is excess risk margin that should be conserved for the decisions that don’t work… Read more »

JR Wirth
JR Wirth
3 years ago

Wanting to open borders to change consensus works wonderfully for the left, but for libertarianism it has the opposite effect on the consensus they want. Libertarians are as brainwashed in blank slate or magic dirt theory as the most Bushite conservatard. Had they looked at the demographics of the counties that supported Ron Paul, they would find the whitest northern counties in America, many of them clustered near the Canadian border. Places nearly uniformly white, but also with low religiosity. Religiosity level was important because rates of bible study went hand in hand with supporting Romney or Santorum. Perhaps, given… Read more »

David
David
Reply to  JR Wirth
3 years ago

Yeah i was volunteering in latin america trying to think why the locals hated capitalism so much. Eventually i realized it was a cognitive deficiency. High IQ populations become very prosperous with free markets. Unfortunately everybody else wants in, and when they get in, they ruin it.

B125
B125
Reply to  David
3 years ago

Never understood why do gooders still feel the need to go build some houses for indios/africans while the men stand around as usual.

Pretty sure they can figure out how to stack cinderblocks one on top of the other. They’re just lazy and don’t really care.

I’d say there is more to it than just high IQ though. Brahmins are petty high IQ but ultimately turn everything to crap because of their shitty and selfish culture. No country with those elites will ever prosper.

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  B125
3 years ago

We (HBD’ers) pretty much understand that there is an inherent set of behaviors that also vary among the races. Unfortunately we all too often use the “shortcut” of ascribing all racial differences to IQ. So much so, that I tend to ignore those statements, least I sound like a broken record. But you are correct, it is always a situation of IQ + Behavior.

Bilejones
Member
Reply to  B125
3 years ago

The Brahmins are the assholes that they are because of the structure of their religions.
Through the correct conduct of the sacrifices and rituals the Gods can be appeased and directed.
The Brahmins conduct the rituals therefore the Brahmins are more powerful than the Gods.

They shouldn’t have to clean up their own shit (quite literally).

Ben the Layabout
Ben the Layabout
Reply to  Bilejones
3 years ago

Today’s Sanskrit word is “Chandala.” 😀

Gedeon
Gedeon
Reply to  B125
3 years ago

It’s called a virtue signaling vacation.

I don’t tell people where and how I like to relax because I don’t want more people in my space so I can continue relaxing.

Drew
Drew
Reply to  David
3 years ago

The locals probably hate free market capitalism for the same reason pre-revolutionary french peasants hated it: implementation has costs that they don’t want to pay. It’s all well and good to day there’s a general benefit to everyone in the long run, but that doesn’t make the short term transition any less painful or costly. That’s not to say that increased trade should be avoided, just that opposition isn’t irrational.

JR Wirth
JR Wirth
Reply to  Drew
3 years ago

Stupid, lazy people intuitively know that they will get the short straw under capitalism. A parasite knows a blood supply when it sees one.

Drew
Drew
Reply to  JR Wirth
3 years ago

That was definitely not the case in France in the 18th century. The biggest issue was that grain farmers would stand to make more money by exporting while their neighbors would have to pay more to buy in that market. In times of global surplus, that wouldn’t have been an issue, but they tried switching to a free market basis the year that an extremely long continental winter reduced output considerably, leading to an extremely huge jump in prices. The bread riots nearly set off the revolution early. The lesson is that even a subpar system may be preferred to… Read more »

Ben the Layabout
Ben the Layabout
Reply to  David
3 years ago

I think you have something there. Based upon my admittedly skewed and limited knowledge of world history, in fact: Republics or democracy in the Western sense and/or high-productivity economic systems that are “free”, at least in a relative sense, seem to be the exclusive property of Caucasian nations; honorable mention is given to Japan, China and smaller Asian nations, but those have (at best) a few generations’ experience with what was in all honesty, ideas imposed and/or imported directly from the West. Even in the West, individual freedom has been relatively infrequent, historically speaking. And much less so among our… Read more »

nailheadtom
3 years ago

Any social system larger than a small tribe is an example of a utopia. Of course, some attempted utopias last longer than others and acquire legitimacy simply through endurance.

Proponents of niche thought, like libertarians and anarchists, if they’re relatively sane, realize that their ideas will never come to fruition in any comprehensive way. But they do serve a useful purpose in challenging conventional thinking and scrambling the perceptions of the status quo.

Captain Willard
Captain Willard
3 years ago

To be clear, H-H Hoppe was against open borders and free immigration and he was certainly in favor of freedom of association. There are plenty of libertarians who don’t consider him a libertarian, FWIW. I think Chet Rollins is correct that Hoppe never could resolve the role of the state power or sovereign within his “covenant communities”. There are two issues here regarding government: efficiency and legitimacy. Zman addresses the inefficiencies of broad franchise democracy without grappling with the crucial legitimacy issue. Hoppe’s view on monarchy versus democracy is a reductive argument. Superior stability, while appealing to the Divine Right… Read more »

BoomerMCMXLVII
BoomerMCMXLVII
Reply to  Captain Willard
3 years ago

It seems to me that human nature being what it is, the expansion of the franchise is inevitably the precursor to expanded and intrusive government. As those with less to lose and more to gain get to vote they will vote for things that
benefit themselves regardless of how it effects others.
The new wrinkle today is that now big money (corporate) has been enfranchised. While the “golden rule” has always been a big influence, today it is a whole other reality.

Captain Willard
Captain Willard
Reply to  BoomerMCMXLVII
3 years ago

Yes, excellent point. Presumably, this is what a Constitution is for. Of course, to your point, expanded franchise leads to electing leaders who wipe their butts with the Constitution. It’s a big problem and I don’t have an answer for you.

JR Wirth
JR Wirth
Reply to  Captain Willard
3 years ago

What the constitution WAS for, before it became irrelevant by 1935. It only took one generation after the 17th Amendment to demolish that document. Today’s supreme court rulings are a mix of public sentiment and power politics.

Gedeon
Gedeon
Reply to  BoomerMCMXLVII
3 years ago

You don’t think and of the East Indian colonial concerns had a vote in their day? What about John Law with the ostensibly French Mississippi Company? It’s quaint for both factions to believe there is a magic bullet, but the fact is, there is no magical bullet. The reason we get a dictator after this is because the opposition can’t really afford even one prominent dissident at a time. Even when the dictator prevails, the society immediately transitions back to an administrative architecture of some form and colloquial description. It is what it is. I do think the DR should… Read more »

OrangeFrog
OrangeFrog
Reply to  Captain Willard
3 years ago

“It’s also impossible to have this discussion without agreeing on what the proper role for the State actually is.” Now that is a good place to start. I suppose the problem is we’d also need to know who would make up such a State – whites, blacks, aliens? The role of the current State in my book should be heavily withdrawn as it is most perniciously anti-white. Perhaps that is how far we’ve fallen, I’d settle for the role of the State not being anti-white. Furthermore, such a state ought to have a culture and be comprised of those supportive… Read more »

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
Reply to  OrangeFrog
3 years ago

Mr. Frog, I would respect the libertarians a lot more if they just said, “We’re going to have an authoritarian regime to force small government and the NAP on you. If you try to expand the role of the state then we will brutally crush you.”

Even as a WN, I might be able to get behind that plan.

Maus
Maus
Reply to  OrangeFrog
3 years ago

Congratulations on your visionary reorganization of political society; but it’s been done before. If your people are “Aryans,” then your boys are the Gestapo and your state is the Third Reich. Perhaps it would have succeeded if they’d remained focused on “internal” cultural matters instead of the quest for Lebensraum. May I suggest we skip the pit executions and proceed directly to labor camps with “adjacent facilities” in pursuit of the Endlosung that’s “good for our people?” /sarc

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
Reply to  Maus
3 years ago

Maus, you say all that stuff like it’s a bad thing.

There is no other option.

Ben the Layabout
Ben the Layabout
Reply to  LineInTheSand
3 years ago

Sadly, I think that is the end game. The only undecided question is who is in the pit and who is behind the machine guns? While Mexico has always been a rather chaotic example of “democracy,” lately in the news is 80+ mayoral candidates are murdered. Journalists turn up dead often. Several years ago a large number of aspiring teachers (communists, socialists, leftists, just like in USA) at a university were murdered. In most of these cases, those targeted were anti-corruption, anti-drug-cartel, or (something we might more easily forgive), anti-leftist. Alas, Mexico probably offers a glimpse of what will become… Read more »

ProZNoV
ProZNoV
Reply to  Captain Willard
3 years ago

Franchise limiting is such an obvious necessity it no longer merits discussion. Like much else, the DR gets wrapped up in the weeds about the particulars instead of selling the primary arguments for why it’s absolutely necessary. I think Zman (?) proposed a useful framework long ago: one vote per married couple (invested in the long term), you only get to vote in the state you were born in/turn 18 in (prevents carpetbaggers distorting the uniqueness of states). Surely a basic literacy test, in English, would be a decent start. I’d also say basic math (algebra and an understanding of… Read more »

Moe Noname
Moe Noname
Reply to  ProZNoV
3 years ago

Sorry, Mr. ProZ: dats rayciss.

Which is the worst thing ever.

Maus
Maus
Reply to  ProZNoV
3 years ago

At first blush, your proposal sounds reasonable. Of course, some otherwise excellent citizens would be excluded because they don’t want to marry. Indeed, that criterion opens a can of worms. Will no-fault divorce exist to permit “voting marriages” that can be put on and taken off like a pair of shoes? Will gay marriage be permitted (it potentially fails the “long term” test unless gay adoption or surrogate motherhood is also admitted)? If not (and I should hope not) then will homosexuals re-closet and contract sham marriages? The fact is that any system of limited franchise can be gamed; and… Read more »

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
Reply to  Maus
3 years ago

What Maus is saying, perhaps inadvertently, is that we aren’t going to vote our way out of this.

Gedeon
Gedeon
Reply to  LineInTheSand
3 years ago

It’s a slippery slope fallacy.

The fact is, there are very few queers even if the media and education complex tells you otherwise.

KGB
KGB
Reply to  ProZNoV
3 years ago

With today’s technology, we have the ability to weigh one’s vote. We could come up with a list of criteria, and the more of those you possess, the more your vote counts. Perhaps you start at 0.1 votes at the age of maturity. You get married? 0.2 Add kids (up to a limit)? 0.3 or higher. Own free and clear title on property? 0.4, etc. Similarly, one could lose part of their voting weight. Divorce might result in losing your marriage bonus and your child bonus. In this way, we could incentivize behaviors — whichever ones we deem vital to… Read more »

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
Reply to  KGB
3 years ago

What’s funny about KGB’s quite reasonable proposal is that it would be easier to win a revolution in this country than get his proposal made law under our current system.

Gedeon
Gedeon
Reply to  LineInTheSand
3 years ago

I take Jim’s position which is fathers are the only class with voting privilege, but would add in a firearm ownership and marksmanship qualification. Those who vote are those who have something to fight for and can fight for it.

The AARP class can advise sons much like women can advise husbands.

Member
Reply to  Captain Willard
3 years ago

I have been gradually coming to the conclusion that there is no such thing as a legitimate government. Even if you had completely unanimous agreement from the people when you founded the government, which is of course impossible, you can’t legitimately bind future generations to the “social contract” agreed-to by the founding generation. My relationship to the US Constitution and social contract is necessarily coercive, even if I agree with much of it. I didn’t ask to be born here, and as we’ve seen what happens to those sovereign citizen freaks, you can’t simply say. “No, I opt our of… Read more »

Captain Willard
Captain Willard
Reply to  Vizzini
3 years ago

Excellent comment. But would you accept the premise that the apparent accelerated failures of governments you referenced are at least correlated with their size, scope and ambition?

Member
Reply to  Captain Willard
3 years ago

I accept it as a hypothesis.

KGB
KGB
Reply to  Vizzini
3 years ago

One of the reasons I am a Christian is due to the Bible’s astounding comprehension of human nature. From the Adam and Eve in the garden through the flood narrative, the Abrahamic and Mosaic stories, through Saul, David, Solomon, and even through the early Apostolic communities, the lesson taught over and over is really echos of the original story of the Garden: We have a winner. What brought me back to Christianity from several years of atheism was finally grasping how instructional and universal is the story of Genesis. It’s all there and it’s been there from the beginning. The… Read more »

yest
yest
Reply to  KGB
3 years ago

“the irrefutable logic”, yes the perfect being created two creatures out of nothing, placed them in a garden, knowing they were too imperfectly made and too weak to resist temptation, and, unless his foreknowledge was wrong (impossible) knew they would FALL to temptation and be condemned, along with their innocent children, to eternal torture and damnation. “the irrefutable logic” of being not consistent with the findings of cosmology (earth is just a tiny blip), geology (earth much older), evolution (man not created at once) or archeology. “the irrefutable logic” of most of the major characters moses, abraham, isaac, joespeh, joshua,… Read more »

Member
Reply to  yest
3 years ago

Someone has a chip on his shoulder.

I find people like this usually have some really horrific thing in their background that makes the idea of God terrifying to them — you know, the possibility of judgment and all.

That’s why they explode into rants like this when they encounter believers.

Whiskey
Whiskey
Reply to  yest
3 years ago

Catholics are told that one cannot read the Bible literally. That it is and was the revealed word of God … but filtered through the language, customs, traditions, history, stories, and culture of people of the time, translated many times, and couched in parables. And written in imperfect human understanding. No one in Ancient Times could and would say things directly. Not even the Greeks, who were more forthright than most, and still resorted to Parables whenever they could as it would not have the King killing entire families. Consider the great Cloud that followed the Israelites out of Egypt… Read more »

BTP
Member
Reply to  yest
3 years ago

Sometimes I wonder what it would be like to be both tedious and illiterate. Now, I don’t need to wonder.

Bilejones
Member
Reply to  Vizzini
3 years ago

The US constitution was fucked by that great Champion of Liberty Jefferson with the Louisiana Purchase; Nowhere authorized but too good to pass up.
Game over.

JerseyJeffersonian
JerseyJeffersonian
Reply to  Bilejones
3 years ago

I didfer from that opinion, Bile. Jeffersonian republicanism is premised upon independent yeomanry as the backbone of the Republic. He acted in secrecy because he knew that the eastern Federalists would never consent to seeing the possibility that rhe ranks of the independent yeomanry might increase in numbers and power within the Republic (recall that the franchise went with that sort of economic status and being a taxpaying member of the community based upon ownership of property). By expanding opportunity for the rise of more independent yeoman, the yeoman could escape the Eastern Federalist ideal wherein the franchise would be… Read more »

Dinothedoxie
Dinothedoxie
Reply to  Captain Willard
3 years ago

The franchise expands i democracy because it’s the easiest path to victory for politicians. And it leads to an expanded government because those same politicians have to promise and pay off their new clients. The Whole thing becomes a vicious cycle.

This dynamic was evident in the late stages of the Roman Republic, so it’s not just a function of American or even liberal democracy.

acetone
Member
Reply to  Captain Willard
3 years ago

Hahaha, someone has read some libertarian things! You sound like you might actually believe this stuff! So, question for you Captain, how is all your logic and reason and rationality of governance going to stop us from getting genocided in the USA? We now know that government form doesn’t matter. The data is in, so you don’t need to theorize about governance anymore! We can be governed under democratic, socialist, capitalist, communist, autocratic, theocratic, monarchical, dictatorial systems and as long as the leaders represent the people (shared identity, ethnicity, culture) the leaders will try to protect the people and try… Read more »

Captain Willard
Captain Willard
Reply to  acetone
3 years ago

Hey Acetone – yeah, I’ve read all kinds of stuff – just enough to be dangerous probably, hopefully just to myself. I certainly believe in limited government. Not a libertarian though, but I do believe the NAP is a good foundation for a society.

That said I understand all this stuff may just be mental masturbation, given the size and immediacy of the threat you’re justifiably worried about. If you’re right, I and others are gonna have to be pretty flexible about governance. I’m pretty confident well-meaning Whites can figure it out when the time comes.

TomA
TomA
3 years ago

Big “L” libertarianism suffers the same defects as all political movements, and hence bitching about those defects is more an exercise in venting than it is a useful path to improvement in anything. And small “l” libertarianism is essentially about minding your own business but then some asshole comes along trying to impose his will upon you, and consequently you must resort to ridding yourself of this nuisance, which may include the permanent kind of riddance if circumstances warrant. This is an ancient evolutionary remedy and it helped propel our species to where we are today. I say this as… Read more »

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
Reply to  TomA
3 years ago

It is a fantasy to believe that we can have a “live and let live” world. Most people on the planet will not, and probably cannot, reciprocate that sentiment.

Let that dream go. Accept that there is always going to be someone in charge and resolve to make it someone who serves the interests of your group.

TomA
TomA
Reply to  LineInTheSand
3 years ago

You’re talking macro and I’m talking micro. But to your point; yes, “live and let live” does not (and cannot) exist in a civilized world where governments dominate human affairs. And no one should expect the thuggery of the State to leave them be. I cannot solve that problem, nor can you. But if just one tyrannical megalomaniac asshole leaves this Earth because he picked on the wrong person to try out his bullying BS, then that’s a good day regardless.

Ben the Layabout
Ben the Layabout
Reply to  LineInTheSand
3 years ago

I think “Live and let live” is possible in some times and places. I think ultimately it’ll require physical separation by race, tribe, perhaps ideologies; boundaries and no-man’s-lands protected on pain of death, but that is just an implementation detail 🙂

Jim Smith
Jim Smith
3 years ago

“Understanding the inherent dangers and defects of liberal democracy.” There’s a book in that. No, a library in fact.

Gedeon
Gedeon
Reply to  Jim Smith
3 years ago

Life has a 100% fatality rate, too.

There is no magic bullet and you work with the cards you are dealt at the table you have a seat at.

Wkathman
Wkathman
3 years ago

It is entirely self-defeating for libertarians to advocate for open borders. Virtually everyone who favors libertarianism is White. Very few nonwhites have any use for or even knowledge of it. Only in a largely homogenous White culture could libertarianism become the operative ideology — and even that’s would be a tremendous stretch. Most Whites are not libertarians. This is a phenomenon of losing the forest for the trees, or simply failing to adapt to the big picture. Libertarians take an anti-government stance on almost every issue. Since the government enforces the borders, we shouldn’t have borders. It’s no more complicated… Read more »

acetone
Member
Reply to  Wkathman
3 years ago

“Virtually everyone who favors libertarianism is White.” Well, what kind of white are you talking about? Many of the most strident and harmful libertarians have non-white identities. Take Cato Institute’s Alex Nowrasteh for instance. His position as a libertarian is radical open borders. Parents (or perhaps grandparents) were Iranian immigrants. Unclear religious background but I have seen him comment places with parentheses ((())) around his user name. The policy positions he supports are harmful to the heritage american desire to not be displaced. Indeed, his writings indicate something that seems like hostility towards heritage americans, the origins of which I… Read more »

acetone
Member
Reply to  Wkathman
3 years ago

Hi Wkathman, my comment is being moderated. I am giving you a short form response in case it doesn’t get through. Some people, particularly it seems white people, like libertarianism because it is an interesting and fun philosophy. Other people like libertarianism because of the ends it delivers. That is to say, they embrace the philosophy for bad faith reasons, seeing it as a tool to get certain people power and money (while taking it away from certain other people). IMO, in the US today libertarianism serves minoritarian interests and disenfranchises heritage americans (free trade, immigration, drugs, sexual freedoms, community… Read more »

Citizen of a Silly Country
Citizen of a Silly Country
3 years ago

As I mentioned the other day, democracy relies on its citizens accepting the legitimacy of other citizens to decide their fate. The minute part of population no longer accepts the right of other groups to rule over them, even if that rule is based on free and open elections, the game is up. Democratic totalitarianism is still totalitarianism. The fact that 50% plus one voted to make me a slave doesn’t make my subjugation legitimate. Expanding the franchise to ever more groups might be the natural path of democracy, but it also dooms it to failure. I simply do not… Read more »

JohnSmith
JohnSmith
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
3 years ago

Democratic totalitarianism is still totalitarianism, as you rightly point out, but I would add “Europeans” to complete your list of unacceptable tyrants. How many governors, judges, senators, etc have betrayed “their people” lately?

“Democracies have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have, in general, been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.” — James Madison

Citizen of a Silly Country
Citizen of a Silly Country
Reply to  JohnSmith
3 years ago

Just a question of whom you consider to be your people. We use Whites as our people, but, really, Whites are a huge collection of various ethnicities and cultures. The Irish don’t consider the English to be their people even though they’re pretty similar genetically.

I’ve never been a White Nationalist. I’m an ethno-nationalist. However Whites wants want to divide themselves is fine with me.

The key is to live among and be ruled by your people, however, you define that.

karl mchungus
karl mchungus
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
3 years ago

the irish may be related genetically to the original britains, but they are very different from the normans and anglo-saxons that displaced most of the Britains after Western Rome fell.

Citizen of a Silly Country
Citizen of a Silly Country
Reply to  karl mchungus
3 years ago

True, the Irish and the Welsh are probably fairly related.

But there was a fair amount of mingling between the Angles and Saxons and original Britons, especially among the Angle and Saxon men and the Briton women.

Check out the video on this page.

https://morethanadodo.com/2018/04/03/a-genetic-map-of-britain/

Montefrío
Member
Reply to  karl mchungus
3 years ago

There is an Irish subset population of “Norman Irish” (I’m one) who are quite different in appearance from the Celts, although as to genetic makeup, I’m unsure if there are major differences.

Citizen of a Silly Country
Citizen of a Silly Country
Reply to  karl mchungus
3 years ago

Montefrio,

Yeah, a lot of Irish surnames – or, at least, what people think are Irish surnames – are actually Norman/French, such as Fitzgerald.

And I’m not even Irish. Just know a bit of history. And thing you learn from history is don’t invite the Normans to your country.

Captain Willard
Captain Willard
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
3 years ago

So is this a “scope” argument or a “principle” argument? If government were just a dog catcher and a fire department, would you accept a broad franchise?

SamlAdams
SamlAdams
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
3 years ago

Two things depend utterly on “confidence”. Representative government and fractional banking. We’ve seen plenty of examples of what happens in the latter case.

G Lordon Giddy
G Lordon Giddy
3 years ago

I attended a fund raiser for a libertarian candidate for US Senator back in 2016. I asked a question about e-verify and why not run on using it? He acted baffled at my question and quickly said it would not work. I followed up with a statement that we citizens in all the states would end up like California. Again silence. Quickly went onto next question. I was a libertarian but once I saw that we are going to be quickly outnumbered by people who could care less about small government run by libertarians, I saw the light. Not so… Read more »

Hun
Hun
3 years ago

Hoppe is explicitly against open borders.

Jack Boniface
Jack Boniface
Member
Reply to  Hun
3 years ago

Right. Here’s his essay on immigration restriction: https://mises.org/library/case-free-trade-and-restricted-immigration-0

Hun
Hun
Reply to  Jack Boniface
3 years ago

Yeah, lots of other articles on the topic here: https://www.lewrockwell.com/author/hans-hermann-hoppe/?ptype=article

acetone
Member
Reply to  Jack Boniface
3 years ago

I read through the article. Lot of words, lot of assumptions, lot of theory. I get suspicious when I see these red flags (after all, unfortunately, we live in the real political world — not a theoretical political world). I don’t see much coherence with mainstream libertarian philosophy from HHH in this paper. If one of the main appeals of libertarianism is its philosophical coherence, its a bad sign that HHH (and other libertarians) can’t even construct agreements on these points. I also looked up HHH on google.scholar. His writings have few citations and he has basically no academic credibility… Read more »

Hun
Hun
Reply to  acetone
3 years ago

Fuck off, retard.

acetone
Member
Reply to  Hun
3 years ago

Hi Hun, you’re upset so I revisit my comment. When I search “hans hermann hoppe” in google scholar I get results that show an h-index of around 30. Search Friday didn’t return the results I see now (no idea why). Today’s search shows a respectable publication record for an academic, especially considering HHH is first or solo author on his most important works. HHH can’t be dismissed outright due to poor academic work output. I eat crow. I make HHH criticism regarding coherency from article Jack Boniface posted. Lets look at this a essay more closely. Written in 1998, cited… Read more »

SamlAdams
SamlAdams
3 years ago

Off topic. But on your vacation spend some time considering the question Jay Chiat asked his team out loud when he started Chiat/Day/Mojo back in the early 80s. “How big can we get before we get bad?” You are going through a considerable expansion round right now. Quality is spectacular, but what is your limit?

SamlAdams
SamlAdams
3 years ago

I suppose libertarianism might be feasible if the whole of society consisted of something near Dunbar’s number and everyone was a 115+ IQ white male and the cohort was thoroughly screened for sociopaths. Attended one local Libertarian gathering at the invitation of a friend, years ago. That’s what was there.

JohnSmith
JohnSmith
Reply to  SamlAdams
3 years ago

High-functioning sociopaths are always the problem. The Ayn Rand materialists are no better than the Karl Marx materialists on that score. “It is not infrequent to hear men declaim loudly upon liberty, who, if we may judge by the whole tenor of their actions, mean nothing else by it but their own liberty — to oppress without control, or the restraint of laws, all who are poorer and weaker than themselves… Our contest is not only whether we ourselves shall be free, but whether there shall be left to mankind an asylum on earth for civil and religious liberty.” —… Read more »

SamlAdams
SamlAdams
Reply to  JohnSmith
3 years ago

Yes, I’ve spent a lot of time on the nature of human nature. It is immutable.

Good ol' Rebel
Good ol' Rebel
Reply to  JohnSmith
3 years ago

Well, at least we all know the answer now.
Q: will there be left to mankind an asylum on Earth for civil and religious liberty?
A: No. Civil and religious liberty (contra freedom) are allowable only to those capable of exercising them responsibly. Same problem as the clownhorn people: only works with highly conscientous, well educated, >115 iq ppl with long time preference and high empathy. The faculty of Princeton in 1830 can be allowed those legally and socially constrained, well-delineated liberties, but no one at that institution today can be allowed such.
#whywecanthavenicethings

Gedeon
Gedeon
Reply to  JohnSmith
3 years ago

Any Rand was a misdirection author. Aynophiles think they can and should deliberately do nothing to win. Atlas Shrugged is the most pathetic form of escapism.

Drew
Drew
Reply to  SamlAdams
3 years ago

To be honest, you’ve basically described Mormonism in the 19th century when it was settling in Utah, at least the 115+ IQ, white, male and small scale part of it. It would be interesting to see what would have happened if their beliefs were libertarian instead of insane. OTOH, spergy white guy society is probably always going to be screwy regardless of the organizing principles.

ProZNoV
ProZNoV
Reply to  Drew
3 years ago

Not Mormon, but I live in UT. Currently getting flooded with CA ass hats who on one hand look down their noses at LDS, and in the other are gorging on the high social capital and prosperity created by the LDS.

LDS isn’t for me, but it clearly “worked” in terms of community, high social trust, excellent governance, replacement birth rates, low crime, etc.

They’re succumbing to the liberal narrative, however. One or two generations from now and they’ll be like the Unitarians, and much poorer for it.

Outdoorspro
Outdoorspro
Reply to  ProZNoV
3 years ago

“Not Mormon, but I live in UT. Currently getting flooded with CA ass hats who on one hand look down their noses at LDS, and in the other are gorging on the high social capital and prosperity created by the LDS.”

I’m in Montana. It’s not just the Mormons they look down on. They do that in every prosperous area they move to. “Oh we really love the clean air and low prices, but it’s just sad there isn’t any culture and diversity here. Let’s change that.”

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
Reply to  SamlAdams
3 years ago

Sam, you’ve touched on one of my favorite taunts for libertarians who think that libertarianism has universal appeal: Libertarian gatherings are more white that AmRen conferences!

And they persist in believing that the NAP has universal appeal! They are so deluded about basic facts of human and non-white nature.

Joey Jünger
Joey Jünger
3 years ago

One of the less remarked-upon reasons the left imports helots is that they don’t just want obedience from stupid people. They want gratitude from stupid people. And like all the worst, most delusional tyrants, they want to not only rule through fear, but have the fearful reflect back to them that they rule through consent, and because they’ve been chosen. The people running the show could just come out and say, “Look, damn right we stole the election. Now do what we say or we’ll throw you in jail with those other deplorables and beat an eye or two out… Read more »

Severian
Reply to  Joey Jünger
3 years ago

That’s an important observation, one that I’m really surprised to see getting almost no play on Our Side. Power-for-power’s-sake actually explains very little about the Left, as the briefest look at their actions will confirm. Trannies being the most obvious recent example — if they wanted “drag queen story hour” to be a thing, just march one in with a group of armed thugs behind it. Have the thugs level their rifles at the crowd, and there you go. But they don’t just want you to listen, they want you to applaud, and not at gunpoint — no, you must… Read more »

Karl Horst (Germany)
Karl Horst (Germany)
3 years ago

Based on your writings this week, are you concerned for what the Republicans may have to offer in the next election? While Trump seems keen on running again, I wonder if he will really have enough support from the main stream Republican party given how much they seemed to hate him.

Do you know if the Republican Party, out of fear of Trump running again, is currently trying to groom someone else as “their” candidate?

Jack Dobson
Jack Dobson
Reply to  thezman
3 years ago

Same, but I expect an Australian-type compulsory voting law to pass Congress soon. Nothing terrifies totalitarians more than widespread dissent, and that’s what abstention from voting is when it results not from apathy but abhorrence.

3g4me
3g4me
Reply to  Jack Dobson
3 years ago

Jack – I agree, but alter the ‘soon’ to by 2032. Before Kamala sashays outta de ho house.

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  Jack Dobson
3 years ago

Mandatory voting is not and can not be any sort of answer. Where it is mandatory, folks often pay a small fine for not showing up at the poll. But if you don’t want to pay that, then turn in a blank ballot. That, it seems to me, would be most chilling for the system—literally recording millions of “under votes”.

I.M.
I.M.
Reply to  Karl Horst (Germany)
3 years ago

Trump had zero support from establishment Republicans when he ran in 2016. He won anyway, because enough Republican voters have come to understand that establishment Republicans hate them, lie to them, sell them out, etc. so the voters turned against them.

The establishment probably wants to run Nikki Haley in 2024, who is no better than Romney or McCain. If Trump were to run, he’d crush her. If he doesn’t run, he’d have to bankroll DeSantis, else Haley or someone of her ilk will probably win the nomination.

3g4me
3g4me
Reply to  I.M.
3 years ago

I.M. – I had my name removed from the voter rolls 2 years ago – I just called today to double check and yes, it notes “removed upon voter’s request.” Yet my mail is still stuffed full of mind-numbingly stupid republican crap, today from Ted Cruz and Nikki Haley. It might be another decade of returning postage-paid envelopes stuffed with paper and a few pennies before they stop.

Major Hoople
Major Hoople
Member
Reply to  3g4me
3 years ago

Dang, I’m getting the same garbage. Returning the envelope with a penny taped to heavy cardboard…that’s something I hadn’t thought of!

LineInTheSand
LineInTheSand
Reply to  Karl Horst (Germany)
3 years ago

Karl, from what I can tell, the next Republican play is to give Puerto Rico statehood to own the libs and promote Rubio. God, I hate these people.

Just like with amnesty, “If Republicans give them amnesty, then hispanics will vote for us!” they think, “If Republicans can grant Puerto Rico statehood then they will vote for us!” Didn’t Reagan disprove this line of thinking in 1986?

https://twitter.com/emeriticus/status/1398070207235698689

3g4me
3g4me
Reply to  LineInTheSand
3 years ago

Line: I will never forgive Teddy Roosevelt. He saddled us with our own ‘colonialism’ and Mestizos, and got away relatively unscathed by historians.

KGB
KGB
Reply to  3g4me
3 years ago

Hawaii, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Cuba, all on McKinley’s watch. Was Teddy gung-ho about them? Sure. Was their acquisition on his say-so? No.

3g4me
3g4me
Reply to  KGB
3 years ago

Fair enough. I’ll add McKinley to my ‘hate’ list.

Karl Horst (Germany)
Karl Horst (Germany)
Reply to  KGB
3 years ago

With all the anti-colonialism going on, it wouldn’t be a surprise if the descendants of Liliʻuokalani appeal to the UN for the return of Hawaii.

Alzaebo
Alzaebo
Reply to  KGB
3 years ago

An HWBush style ‘handler’

Gedeon
Gedeon
Reply to  Karl Horst (Germany)
3 years ago

MTG-MG

Greene-Gaetz

Chet Rollins
Chet Rollins
3 years ago

Hoppe’s Libertarianism falls apart for the same reason Popper’s open Society falls apart.

Hoppe states that communists, socialists, and other people with authoritarian impulses need to be forcibly removed from society…. so to speak. Popper said something similar that the ‘intolerant’ can not be tolerated with his idea of the open society.

If one follows through with the ramifications, we are talking about civic nationalism on steroids that, by it’s deracinated ideological nature, requires an authoritarian structure unless you want to allow mobs of people expel and suppress supposed unbelievers.

SamlAdams
SamlAdams
Reply to  Chet Rollins
3 years ago

Maybe this is an apocryphal story. Read once that Hoppe used to pull out a toy helicopter when discussing the “removal principle”. Have to give him props for that one. Looked it up once (though tough to get good numbers) Pinochet’s total body count was estimated at a whopping 3k. Wouldn’t even qualify him for a scouting trip/draft to the Maoist/Leninist single A league. Yet, Chile was only stable country worth doing in business in and with a growing standard of living for decades in S. America. Pretty good bargain.

Moe Noname
Moe Noname
Reply to  SamlAdams
3 years ago

Back in the day, I took a class on South American history. When we got to Chile, the (bleeding heart liberal) professor started lamenting the horrors of Pinochet and the military junta.
My take away was that Allende was one step away from creating Cambodia style killing fields before the generals removed him.

SamlAdams
SamlAdams
Reply to  Moe Noname
3 years ago

Yes, what gets glossed over is that Allende was elected with a mere plurality and used his ideological foot soldiers to stir up riots, murders, arsons and beatings all through the country. And the economy was in a shambles. Nothing I’ve been able to find suggests that Pinochet was particularly ideological–which fits with post coup approach once the hard core of commies was disposed of. The Cubans I grew up with always spoke admiringly of him.

Montefrío
Member
Reply to  Moe Noname
3 years ago

Academics generally detested Franco as well. I lived in Spain during the final Franco years and while he was to no small degree out of the daily operations of the country, so to speak (it was his right-hand man Carrero Blanco whose car was blown onto a rooftop), the system was still in place and to my then young eyes it worked well. My now old eyes would see it no differently. Today’s Spain, by comparison…

BTP
Member
Reply to  Chet Rollins
3 years ago

Popper should have been put on a helicopter.

3g4me
3g4me
Reply to  Chet Rollins
3 years ago

Chet: Alter the principle of forcibly removal from one’s society not the ‘intolerant’ but rather the non-Whites and the White anti-Whites, and I can live with both the authoritarianism and its short-term ramifications. At least for a generation or so, until you have a nation of proud and self-confident White people uncorrupted by unnecessary self-doubt or self hatred.

Ben the Layabout
Ben the Layabout
Reply to  Chet Rollins
3 years ago

I’ve noted that is one of the flaws, perhaps THE fatal flaw, of any relatively free democracy or republic: you can’t have extremists who might destroy the freedom. But of course, that would be restraining their freedom of expression or belief… It’s a paradox, not unlike to the old joke or lesson really, in logic or philosophy class: the irreconcilable implications of the statement “Everything I say is a lie.” Stated another way, no ethical, moral or legal system will remain functional for very long unless nearly everyone voluntarily adheres to those standards, and there must be predictable and reliable… Read more »

BTP
Member
3 years ago

Good. See? That wasn’t so hard, was it? Now, Libertarians, say something nice about Z.

Glenfilthie
Glenfilthie
Member
3 years ago

In my experience, libertarians are just turd brained pot heads and marxist degenerates that break with the liberals on a very limited number of issues such as gun control.

The rest are queers.

OrangeFrog
OrangeFrog
Reply to  Glenfilthie
3 years ago

You experience mimics my own: all the people I have met and have claimed to be libertarians were highly irresponsible, immature, and loved their drugs. My Lord did they love their drugs. Much the same as the wokeists I have met.

Severian
Reply to  OrangeFrog
3 years ago

Being as charitable as possible to Libertarians in general (and the Rand-roids in particular), I think books like Atlas Shrugged are like Romantic poetry — life-altering if you read them at juuuust the right moment in your late teens, incomprehensible and/or annoying if not. I read the Romantics when I was 17.2 years old, and have always loved them a little bit, despite their ludicrousness. I read Atlas Shrugged when I was 17.8 years old, and thought “Jeez, kids are going to be waving this around like it’s an all-purpose Asshole License.” (That’s why all teenagers should be sent down… Read more »

karl mchungus
karl mchungus
Reply to  Severian
3 years ago

are you sure you weren’t reading “Catcher in the Rye”? re: all-purpose Asshole License

OrangeFrog
OrangeFrog
Reply to  karl mchungus
3 years ago

Is Catcher in the Rye the one with the kid who calls everyone and everything ‘phoney’? If he was close then, he’s bang on now.

Severian
Reply to  karl mchungus
3 years ago

That’s another one. One of my infallible rules of thumb is that anyone who liked The Catcher in the Rye in high school is a toothache, and anyone who calls xzhyrzelf “the Holden Caulfield of [group]” should be beaten mercilessly at every possible opportunity; they’ll know the reason why.

Severian
Reply to  karl mchungus
3 years ago

@OrangeFrog,

yep, that’s the one. Also “crumby.” That and A Separate Peace were required reading in a lot of high schools in the USA (the real one, not AINO), I guess on the theory that it was important for us to learn how awful it is to be a spoiled rich kid at an exclusive New England prep school.

B125
B125
Reply to  karl mchungus
3 years ago

I hated that book. When I re-read it with my (((detector))) now activated, it was clearly just a weapon promoting generational hatred and division, as well as resentment towards your elders.

Lanky
Lanky
Reply to  karl mchungus
3 years ago

I remember loving The Good Earth, whatever the sociopolitical persuasions of the author.

3g4me
3g4me
Reply to  Severian
3 years ago

Severian: Ah, so that’s where I failed. I arrived as a wide-eyed 17.8 year old freshman to find lots of soopersophisticated womyn waving around Rand, and I had never heard of her. Didn’t actually read Atlas Shrugged until about 5 years ago. And I dislike both romantic poetry and the romantic composers – give me Pope over Keats and Mozart over Beethoven any day. And yet . . . I still enjoy a well-written romantic novel. Rational or not, I am still female.

Severian
Reply to  3g4me
3 years ago

Yeah, a lot of stuff works that way, I’ve found. Occasionally I’ll feel the need to remind myself what my own opinions are worth, so I’ll re-read Shelley’s “The Masque of Anarchy” and remember how great I thought it was when I first read it back in high school. “In unconquerable number / like lions after slumber”… good god, I want to invent a time machine, just so I can go back to high school and shove my own head in a toilet. (I’d chalk that one up to “the follies of youth,” but like I say, that kind of… Read more »

Montefrío
Member
Reply to  Severian
3 years ago

“Sent down to the fields” is a close approximation of what I remember as “Hsia Fang”, the Red Guards’ and Pol Pot’s plan for the intellectuals: “going down place”, as in stoop labor, etc. The truth is there are worse ideas.

Ben the Layabout
Ben the Layabout
Reply to  Montefrío
3 years ago

Long ago in America, there was a perhaps better, capitalist version. This is only a second-hand story once told me, but very likely true. For a long time, no one was promoted to management in Sears & Roebuck unless they had worked a few years on the retail sales floor of one of the stores. Nowadays I assume most of our corporations are run, like our governments, by people “educated” in fluff, who have rarely had any contact with the day-to-day realities of who and what they propose to lord it over. I’ll give AOC some credit: at least she… Read more »

Alzaebo
Alzaebo
Reply to  Severian
3 years ago

Rand’s typically overwrought, overlong Russian science fiction.

BTP
Member
Reply to  Glenfilthie
3 years ago

Mostly because gun control has racist roots, see? Noble black sharecropper defends himself against rando cracker losers in heroic stand with his shotty.

Screwtape
Screwtape
Reply to  Glenfilthie
3 years ago

Likie liberalism, its cousin libertarianism appeals across the curve. Ive known many super smart libertarians who aren’t at all into weed and porn. They were, however, into the abdication of moral responsibility to their People as part of a self-constructed hierarchy of virtues. So much so they would deploy their swolle IQ’s toward researching and constructing intricate faraday cages to insulate from observable reality while protecting their particular fetishes from reproach. Each one uniquely adapted to recuse them from moral arguments toward that duty to their Brothers. Some delude with THC; others with muh IQ. These are similar to the… Read more »

Rhodok
3 years ago

The natural power hierarchy can almost endlessly be expanded downward. But hardly ever upward. There are always more powerless at the bottom.
Hence a smart demagogue will appeal to the masses to swamp the powerful at the top of the hierarchy.

karl mchungus
karl mchungus
3 years ago

one think that it is important to mention, is the concept of ‘scale’. now this requires a numerate mind, so many if not all progs & nogs are unfamiliar with this aspect of systems. the US is a system operating at a very high scale level (relative to available technology) and it has to be maintained and managed carefully or it will start degrading almost immediately. all modern countries are the same. so when the muds start tinkering around with with this large scale system, they break it, and their attempts to fix one problem creates three more. eventually the… Read more »

B125
B125
Reply to  karl mchungus
3 years ago

To me it’s clear that demographics are extremely important. If western elites wanted to continue to have global dominance, their countries should have stayed white. They are doing the opposite; importing useless gutter trash from every random corner of the world. This ensures that they will never, ever, have global dominance again. So maybe there is something more at play here. They aren’t always logical. They just hate white people especially gentiles. Also- women ALWAYS double down on a failing strategy rather than assess why things are failing. We live in a gynocentric society and this may apply to the… Read more »

Ben the Layabout
Ben the Layabout
Reply to  B125
3 years ago

I agree that demographics are very important but they do not explain all. I can offer you just from the twentieth century three nations that did exceptional damage to themselves, no outside influence required. The Soviet Union or Argentina. Both, so far as I know, nearly 100% Caucasian. China, later Red China. Supposedly Chinese have slightly better IQ than Whites. In the case of the two communist nations, high raw IQ did not prevent millions of needless (?) deaths. Smart people can get into deep trouble too. 🙁

Alzaebo
Alzaebo
Reply to  B125
3 years ago

Breeder-brained (((elite))) visions

Per Vizzini’s remarkably good comment re understanding Genesis, the childlike Biblical narrative satisfies one’s moral, emotive senses.

It’s a people story, not a frontal cortex-style engine manual.

(Thus, a set of blinders, confounding the unique White ability to answer the questions, “What happens next, and why?”)

The Wild Geese Howard
The Wild Geese Howard
3 years ago

Speaking of open borders, we now have significant numbers of gypsies jumping the southern border:

https://www.unz.com/isteve/romanian-gypsies-are-crossing-the-rio-grande/

usNthem
usNthem
Reply to  The Wild Geese Howard
3 years ago

Well, we’re evidently letting in every other worthless degenerate from every other worthless s***hole in the world, so why not gypsies? We obviously don’t have enough worthless minority ethnic groups to vote demoncrap. Is this a great (former) country or what?

B125
B125
Reply to  usNthem
3 years ago

Wait till you start getting more Punjabis lol.

And you’ll be getting more and more as Canada fills up with “new Canadians” many of whom are eager to head south once the citizenship facilitates it.

Good ol' Rebel
Good ol' Rebel
Reply to  B125
3 years ago

I for one think the special visas from Canada are horrifically racist, terrible, and white supremacist, and should therefore be ended post haste. 😉

OrangeFrog
OrangeFrog
Reply to  The Wild Geese Howard
3 years ago

We used to have them all around Marble Arch in London. They were known for pick-pocketing. That said, I don’t really give a toss about London; most of the people complaining about them would be the first to vote to let more in because feelings. Because colonialism. Because ‘do the right thing’.

At least they’ve got their solid little community, though. At least as a group they are untrusting of outsiders… looks like more whites could take this lesson to heart.

SamlAdams
SamlAdams
Reply to  OrangeFrog
3 years ago

I’ve argued the same lessons could be taken from the Hasidic communities. They no what their interests are (agree or not) and work ruthlessly to advance them. And stick together. When the rebbe in Kiryas Joel says he’ll deliver 10k votes in return for “X” it happens. Meanwhile the secular and Reform factions are squealing in astonishment that their pets got off the leash and are now mauling them in broad daylight.

Jim Smith
Jim Smith
Reply to  OrangeFrog
3 years ago

“Looks like more whites could take this lesson to heart.” Gonna need to.

Severian
Reply to  The Wild Geese Howard
3 years ago

What, are “tarot reading” and “curses” now jobs Americans won’t do?

I kid, I kid, but seriously: I have never really understood the truth of the phrase “must laugh to keep from crying” until the Current Year. I for one really really hope that UFO stuff is real. Come on down, saucer people, you will be welcomed as liberators.

OrangeFrog
OrangeFrog
Reply to  Severian
3 years ago

I have heard that aliens are brilliant tarot readers.

Alzaebo
Alzaebo
Reply to  Severian
3 years ago

So, that means, being ruthlessly ethnic second-raters, misunderstanding all the science they come upon, only interested in advancing themselves in whatever low-cost niche they can…

Why, if they were to steal written literacy, and begin a narrative of lost grandeur, fake but accurate political history, with hidden curses, secret spells, signs and portents- in a thousand years, they could have a Bible of their own.

Alien. They are alien to our revolutionary way of thinking, constraining our understanding, but illuminating to study.
Worthy enemy aliens in their own right, but their way blinds us.

La-Z-Man
La-Z-Man
Reply to  The Wild Geese Howard
3 years ago

They say every stereotype about gypsies is true.

Drake
Drake
3 years ago

Enjoy your vacation Mr. Z.