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People tend to look for linear explanations for the problems they see in the world, as they are the easiest to solve. If X is causing Y then you just have to do something about X and Y solves itself. If on the other hand, a combination of things is responsible for the undesired result, then things get more complicated. It is no longer a matter of fixing one thing, but of untangling a set of things, which may have their own set of causes, thus making the problem feel intractable.
An example of a multivariate problem that is the collapsing fertility rates that threaten the existence of the West. For example, Italy has a total fertility rate of just over one, which is below half of replacement. A people cannot sustain themselves very long if they are not having children. In fact, it only takes a generation of not having babies to overturn the population. In time, Italians will have only a vague idea of what it means to have a brother or a sister.
The first-place people look to understand the collapse in fertility is the soft, intangible things like culture and morality. In the middle of the last century birth rates started to fall and Western societies embraced materialism. In truth, birth rates started falling in the 19th century as the West industrialized. Having lots of children no longer made economic sense like it did on the farm. Among the wealthy, lots of kids stopped being a status symbol, so they lowered their reproduction.
Even so, family formation was still the norm. It was just that people had three or four children rather than seven and eight. There was no push to remain childless or avoid even basic family formation. It is fair to say that the trend away from marriage and family formation got going after the Second World War. There was the post-war baby boom in America and later booms in Europe, but by the time the West had become fully post-modern and materialistic, fertility was collapsing.
That is where most people look for an answer. Starting in the middle of the last century, the role of women started to change. First, they were encouraged to work outside the home, in addition to being a wife and mother. Then they were encouraged to work in lieu of becoming a wife and mother. The final leg on the transformation of the female role in society was the career woman. The point of her life was to compete with men and go home to a home full of everything but children.
The changing role of women is one big contributor to the baby crisis. If you want to destroy a people, put their women to work. If the ovens are being used for things other than making bread, the bakers can be put to other uses as well. The revolution in the female role has also revolutionized the male role. The pattern of normal family formation has been disrupted by putting men and women into the workforce for the sole purpose of serving the economic needs of society.
This is the most popular answer to the problem because it points to a spiritual sickness that confirms our bias. The hedonistic lifestyle of the present age comes with a punishment as it is morally wrong to have a materialistic society. Western people worship the golden calf, and the price is childlessness. The trouble with this answer is it does not explain why societies made this shift. It does not explain why people have so easily overcome the biological imperative.
That leads to the environmental answer. One version of this is the proliferation of birth control and abortion. Women trained to be men were handed unlimited supplies of contraceptives so they could have as much sex as they like, in fact they have been encouraged to have lots of indiscriminate sex, while not getting pregnant. Easy access to birth control along with strong social pressure on women to avoid having children has short-circuited the normal biological process.
This is where things get tricky again. Males should still want to find wives and have children, so what happened there? Clearly, the collapse in family formation and fertility is more than just a female problem. While women have been trained to be boys while gobbling down birth control to keep from getting pregnant, men have lost interest in doing what men have always done, which is find a mate. Simple observation says that men have become vastly less masculine over the generations.
In other words, both buyers and sellers in the sexual marketplace have changed in ways that discourage fertility. The females seek to be anything but wives and mothers, while males look for females that have no interest in motherhood. Of course, females reward this disinterest with casual, noncommittal sex. Even if a male wants children he enters a sexual marketplace as baren as the wombs of the women. The same is true of females who want to live the traditional female role.
Unlike the female problem, this is not easily explained by pointing to social conditioning or the introduction of birth control. One answer is that as society has made women less interested in being women, this has reduced the supply of females that males imagine as a potential mate. Men look for certain qualities in females that indicate they will be sexually loyal and committed mothers. Raise up a generation of wine guzzling whores and males will simply stop looking mates in that group.
There may be an environmental issue here that works on both sides of the sexual revolution in similar ways. An underappreciated truth of modern materialistic societies is they are awash in chemicals. Industrial society poured smoke into the air and trash into the water. You could see it. Post-industrial society fills the environment with tiny little bits of feel-good intended to make life easier. It is in the food, the water, personal products, and our physical goods. We are awash in alien chemicals.
Take for example, those birth control pills. Monkeying around with the most fundamental of life’s processes has been done without much thought. There have been no serious longitudinal studies on the impact of these drugs. Yet it is possible that they cast a shadow long past their initial purpose. This study suggests that oral contraceptives damages the fear circuitry of women. The female assessment of risk is an essential part of the female role in traditional societies.
Of course, lots of females with unbalanced emotional responses to the normal social stimuli is not going to go unnoticed. The same people making contraceptives are going to be right there to make drugs to treat the downstream consequences, which is why young females are gobbling down antidepressants and anti-anxiety drugs. We have also seen a spike in female binge drinking. A society full of paranoid and neurotic females is not going to promote family formation.
This may also be working the male side of things. Boys are routinely pumped full of drugs to keep them mellow in school. The ADHD crisis started just as fertility rates began to decline in the West. Pumping boys full of powerful chemicals is a lot like handing out birth control to females. All of the long-term studies on these drugs have been funded by the makers of the drugs, so we have no way of knowing if there is a long-term impact, but it is factor to consider.
Then you have the massive chemical bath that is daily life. Modern people eat food full of things they cannot pronounce. They douse themselves with personal products that are also loaded with alien chemicals. Individually and in the short term, these chemicals are all deemed to be safe, but what about mixing them into a long-term cocktail that is life in the modern age? No one knows and no one cares to know. It could very well be one more bit of pressure against our biological circuitry.
That is what makes changing the direction of Western fertility a challenge. The old Greek expression about a happy society being one where old men plant trees in whose shade they will never rest applies here. Children are the trees men plant in their youth, because they expect to be that old man, planting trees for generations they will never see, but they know will exist. The West does not plant trees or have children because Western people have no purpose.
In the end, there are certainly other factors that may be contributing to the collapse of fertility rates in the West. The environmental and economic factors are rarely discussed, because the cultural and social factors preclude any serious discussion of the fertility problem in the West. That means the first mover is the prevailing bias against families, family formation and the production of children. What drives it all is a dominant, top-down bias against reproduction, especially among Western people.
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I wanted to write much more on this but you guys were spared mu drivel because I didn’t have time yesterday. It is one of the most important questions and incredibly complex. I suspect chemicals are part of the explanation. There are probably millions of new chemicals the biological effects of which we simply don’t know. But many of them have effects The cultural norm is obviously also important. If we’re all just random complex carbon combinations with no higher purpose it does all seem pointless. This is in part where religion seems to provide something humans need that atheistic… Read more »
When it comes to chemicals in the environment, the most dangerous is dihydrogen peroxide.
“A society full of paranoid and neurotic females is not going to promote family formation.”
Nonsense, Z. Israel’s birth rate is well above 2.0 per woman.
Israelis are the masters of faking educational credentials because only a stupid “g-word” would waste over a decade in college and repaying college debt. Western man will tell women to their face that college is stupid and impoverishing and women will not listen. Israeli men will show their women how to get an African diploma mill degree before they’re even finished with high school.
You either deal with women by force or by deception. They do not respect truth tellers.
You were a masculine-oriented, Christian society. Now you’re a feminine-oriented, Feminist society.
Masculine republics devolve into feminine societies.
Democracies not societies.
Woman is as she was in Eden — rebellious and seeking to usurp place and power.
Man is as he was in Eden — obedient to woman, not to God.
Nothing has changed, just went global. Inevitably.
God never wanted humanity to have demonocracies, or republics, or even kings for that matter. You got God, after all. But folks did as they wished. And here we are. Women rule your nations now.
Wow. This thread is an example of why some women aren’t interested. They shouldn’t vote, work, do anything but be a) slim, b) beautiful, c) submissive so that men get regular sex and can have a family. Do you realize the chance a woman takes when she becomes a traditional homemaker? The biggest risk is that the man gets the middle aged crazies and dumps her for a younger version. I’m in my 60s and if I had money for every story about that happening, the husband and I would own a second home in Europe. Since the woman didn’t… Read more »
Teresa makes some good points.
But can she make a sandwich?
Wait a minute, this isnt the kitchen! What is she doing here?
The biggest risk is that the man gets the middle aged crazies and dumps her for a younger version. I’m in my 60s and if I had money for every story about that happening, the husband and I would own a second home in Europe. Well, I know the plural of anecdote is not “data” but in my life, I have known one, ONE man who left his wife for a younger woman. The man was the husband of my sister’s next door neighbor. Of course it might have been because his wife was a pushy, caustic Girl Boss lawyer,… Read more »
Don’t be absurd, Teresa. Of course women should want to be slim, good looking and have successful marriages. Men should want that too. And don’t whine to me about the family courts – for the last 40 or 50 years, divorce dramas typically end with the woman going to the bank, and men going to the cleaners. That’s why 80% of divorces are driven by women. The vast majority of those are driven by the unhappiness of the woman and not by real marriage breakers like abuse. Them, and the turd brained gold diggers. Why are women so unhappy? I… Read more »
Do you realize the chance a woman takes when she becomes a traditional homemaker? The biggest risk is that the man gets the middle aged crazies and dumps her for a younger version.”
Most divorces are initiated by women.
Teresa, the crowd here can be a bit tough, but I hope that you keep posting. Your outlook is similar to many here and it’s good to hear a lady give her perspective. For example: “We had three kiddies, but alas, the liberal education got them and we only have one grandchild and we’re grateful for that. They’re pretty much infected with the libtard mindset which they did NOT get from home.” A final thought from me: “Both men and women are selfish.” I certainly agree, although from my perspective, social media has recently given women vastly more power over… Read more »
Teresa I once worked with a woman who i liked quite a bit. We had a lot of overlap in many areas. One day i had an interview for a different position, which she knew about, so i wore a suit that day and so forth. She (who was married to a guy who moved mattresses) came in, no interview mind you, looking stunning in a white dress. Multiple times that day i’d look over to ask her a question (she sat in the cube next to me) and she would bend over to give me a great shot of… Read more »
A guy knew said next time he’s tempted to get married he instead will just buy her a house a walk away.
Also i think Teresa is either a troll or a leftist, because the only group of people who use the slur incel are leftists.
Not enough White guys (or Chinese, or Japanese guys) is already changing how the world operates. Russia cannot fight like it always has, because they don’t have the massive surplus population as it did in times past before the birth dearth. They still have the most White guys, just not enough to spend them like water as before. Ukraine is drafting 50 year olds (that finally came through in the FT as an admission). The US, cannot manufacture its boutique weaponry any more. The US high tech, high precision missile offense and defense required desultory usage against low tech, non… Read more »
AND. . . women hate, hate, HATE betas!
Do they? I think they hate those they can’t manipulate even more.
They seem to prefer simps who play-act as alphas. Or rather guys who are somehow able to simultaneously view themselves as the “head of the household” and also do everything their wife tells them to do.
A total simp is a turn-off because it’s too obvious that what the woman has on her hands is a pathetic slave.
See Teresa, supra.
Remember the guy from California who dressed up as Santa and torched his ex and her mother with a homemade flamethrower? They were married for less than a year. The ex was a south of the border type who divorced him because he kept his retarded son a secret. Court gave her the house of course, and even his dog.
There are about twice as many white people in the AINO economic zone today as there were during WW2. Far fewer as a percentage but far greater as a raw number. I am pretty sure the GAE’s lack of industrial capacity and quality is therefore not attributable to a lack of white people, but rather to deliberate choices made by certain individuals. Choices both about where industry would be located, and how and in what “disciplines” young white people would be educated/indoctrinated.
What’s the average age of that population, and do the contributions of that group of whites match the decades in which they were active in the work force? I bet they do. Your raw numbers do not account for the numbers of whites well past the 65-year-old yard line. You can count up all the whites you want, but if they’re too old to work, it’s pointless. Moreover, the point here is not the sheer number of whites, but their place in the workforce of today. Where are they? Not where they used to be, when submarines were being churned… Read more »
What you said on last week’s podcast re the Gen X-ish cultural programming that having kids was somewhat….beta, for lack of a better term. I guess I knew that but, had never heard it spoken of. I fully bought in, and, up until I met my wife in my early 30s, had no desire for children. I was actually anti-children to some extent. I was blessed enough to find a good woman who was single at our age for much more wholesome reasons, but had a very strong desire for a family. Fast forward, and after years of fertility battles,… Read more »
This is what our non-white rulers have deliberately foisted on us . the korean and japaneese are just collateral dammage in the destruction of whyt pple
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ0bI3KnLzA
Two reasons people aren’t marrying and having families — fear and greed. They are afraid of having kids for many reasons and they won’t sacrifice for them.
I’m an old man and still married, have three adult children, two grandkids. If I had succumbed to basic fear or waited until I could “afford children” it would have never happened. But it’s what we’re faced with now on a large scale.
And yet young people today will purchase any number of unaffordable material goods on terms, accruing a mortgage, car payment, credit card bills, etc.
I never married knowing I was up against feminist family courts.
From the web:
“I will never forgive the Conservative government, and New Labour, for exponentially increasing immigration so that they could get cheaper workers, while my generation couldn’t buy homes, afford children or save any money.”
Remove “they could get cheaper workers, while” and you get the truth. Money motivates robbers, not monsters.
Anyone still read de Sade? The purpose of his crimes, he was smart enough to recognize, was to enlarge the distance between himself and humanity. Mere aristocracy is psychologically unsatisfying—to the aristocrat. (People who luck their way into high status or think they just barely bad-lucked out of it really like the idea.)
Politicians destroy your future *so you can’t have it*.
Haven’t read all the other comments, so I apologize if this has already been mentioned. Z, I’m surprised you didn’t draw an obvious correlation with a comment you made in this weeks podcast. You said that “there must be some strong evolutionary selection pressures for believers, as it seems hardwired into us.” Dr. Dutton has talked about this a lot, but the fertility rates are particularly different between leftists and rightists, believers and non-believers. If I remember it’s more than double. We might be witnessing one of those selection processes. Within a generation, American whites will likely be overwhelmingly raised… Read more »
Yeah, I mentioned something similar. People who want to have kids for whatever reason – religion, conservative, just like kids – have been having kids for the past 50 years while those who don’t haven’t.
The “I want to have children” genes is getting passed down while the “I don’t want children” genes aren’t. Soon or later, the birthrates would come back up. The only issue is immigration.
If the US hadn’t had immigration over the past 60 years, it would be turning very conservative and more religious, especially as the Boomers died out.
What does it mean to live a good life? Is it working in a cubicle all day and coming home to watch television and repeat until death? Are the Amish onto something? Were the pre-contact Japanese onto something? Is the advance of technology always a good thing for humans? Maybe Ted K. was right. One thing I know is that the “West” neither seriously asks nor attempts to answer this question.
When I was in my teens I thought such an existence a waste of life, and couldn’t comprehend why so many of my peers were working diligently toward just that. Now, in my 50s, I still feel the same way about it. Yet modern society needs the drone. He is indispensable.
Thing is that Sakoku period Japan wasn’t pre-Contact. The shutting off from the world was a measured response to Contact bringing with it foreign religious strifes, firearms, and navigational technology to a land which was emerging from generations of civil warfare. The Shogunate knew plenty about Western political and technological developments. So various of the more sea-going and mercantile Southern clans… The Shogunate had to keep a tight lid on these clans so that they didn’t leverage their foreign exposure to get their hands on technology and material which would upset the balance of power. Funnily enough once Uncle Sam… Read more »
* The Shogunate’s Positive Vision re Sakoku was maintaining order and stability after generations of traumatising internecine warfare which preceded it. Over time of course it became rather more sclerotic and corrupted as do all things.
When I think about the late C19 and 1H C20 trajectory of Japan, it’s almost like Commodore Perry shot Tito and unleashed well clamped-down tectonic social forces (cf. the Yugs postwar) on a far greater geopolitical scale.
David Goldman studied and wrote extensively about collapsing birth rates in the online edition of Asia Times, writing under the pseudonym Spengler. Interestingly, the problem is not multivariate. His conclusion was that the single factor that drives birth rates is traditional religious belief. Societies and cultures that possess traditional religious belief have high birth rates. Societies and cultures that discard traditional religious belief have low birth rates. This holds true across different races, nations, and sub-cultures, and over time. The Amish are the fastest growing demographic in America. I believe Mormons are second. The future belongs to those who show… Read more »
A story I always relate is that of an older buddy who had five daughters (the oldest of whom would be in her 50s by now), raised Catholic, zero grandkids. I expressed some puzzlement about this to him as I figured that even “accidentally” he might have ended up with at least one grandkid but he always remarked their lives are just marked by too many “distractions”, be it video games, collections of stuff no one but them cares about, etc.
Which brings up the question of religious belief. Why are its rates cratering too?
I think a bit of the answer to both is scale.
Going to get blowback for this of course. The problem with Christianity is that its core beliefs (not tenets which are mainly but not 100% pro-social, pro-eugenic) have crossed some kind of societal event horizon and are now, frankly, ridiculous and redolent of cretinous credulity. It’s that simple. Most great religions contain plenty of wisdom and the obvious issue for us from a Christian perspective is that we have eaten from the Tree of Knowledge. There’s no going back short of a zombie horde cataclysm which erases much of human history and knowledge. For so long as intelligent educated people… Read more »
Non-believers love to mock and chortle at the Cult of the Virgin Mary in Christianity, but in point of fact it was incredibly important in praising and valuing women for being mothers. Sure, it was probably a myth, but every culture has myths, and the Cult of the Virgin was a particularly powerful one. Being the mother of the SON OF GOD was a pretty damn important job! And saving the Son of God from being murdered by the Jew Herod and his goons after giving birth in a barn when the innkeeper told you “Fuck off, we’re full” was… Read more »
Yup. The empowered women lead and the disempowered men follow. To their dual doom. Jezebel and Ahab societies, on meth.
Feminism is a death cult. Straight from Lucifer’s mind to this world.
The fact that Western countries are trying to use immigration to overcome the population implosion tells you that the main big thinkers in government realize they are to blame. And they are unwilling to stow the weapons they deployed against us in the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s to prevent the so-called “population bomb” and to implode labor rates. There are signs of change, though. China is trying to undo the damage of the most overtly anti procreation policies in history. More countries are trying to incentivize children as the immigrants are a demographic and cultural nightmare. The trends in the… Read more »
From things you have written in comments before, and from your picture, I believe you and I live in the same general area. Perhaps we could arrange a meetup after the holidays.
I love how women who pick terrible men and marry them have no agency……..
I don’t know who said it, but I always liked this observation: Women marry a man thinking he will change. Men marry a woman thinking she won’t. It’s not lack of agency to point out that people make imperfect decisions. The advise we give our daughters is to never put themselves in a position economically where they cannot fend for themselves. There are honest and honorable men in the world, and this is a good strategy with many women. There are also men who are contemptible liars and actors and that is ALSO an effective strategy with women. I teach… Read more »
“Several years of negative GDP (locally, nationally, globally) would focus people on more important things than self actualization.”
Fake Chinese proverb:
Food on table, many problems; no food on table, one problem
Disclaimer: I’m a huge China Shill generally. That being said, they’ve got their work cut out for them because apart from the very remote rural peasantry (only a few hundred million now — pace of urbanisation has been insane last 2 generations) women have been totally liberated and rule the roost in social media (*). They also have developed very inflated notions of their personal worth and the kind of men they deserve. It’s going to be very difficult to put that genie back in the bottle. Should be a given in this present company that you cannot have a… Read more »
Do not forget the lack of testosterone (which you seem to allude to in the environmental poisoning section). Completely agree with women – after all, they are taught to have all the sex they can, and it is only wrong when you get pregnant – but a man with raging testosterone wants to impregnate women. The modern man in the West simply lacks that fundamental desire. This is why groups like the Amish are unaffected – their T levels from eating well and avoiding modern radiation and poison, as well as plenty of exercise, are very high compared to most… Read more »
People only call it T because of the commercials. It’s Testosterone. I always felt that people with low testosterone said “T”. Probably more likely that I’m just an asshole.
I used T because I am writing on my phone and find it tedious. You can tell by the poor grammar and edit
Yep you’re just an asshole – which is probably High T.
Oh wait. Damn!
The anecdote re blacks is interesting to consider, as in aggregate they surely eat a higher % if processed foods vs other demographics
But they still have higher levels, even when obese, that whitrs.
That they’re Inherently Closer to a State of Nature is the most polite way I can express it.
If you do any research on this at all you will see like most everything else the Rockefellers had a huge hand in it….
The shitlibs who say there should be no such thing as a billionaire are probably right, but not for the reasons they think. What’s proven out over time is that too many billionaires are unable to resist the temptation to use their wealth to play god over the rest of us. Evidently just having the ability to do whatever you want whenever and however you want isn’t satisfying enough.
No single man, by virtue of his wealth, should be more powerful than a country, even a small African one.
Crassus learned this the hard way.
But Crassus lived in a society which worshipped Action and Martial Glory more than Money. So it always ate at him until he got his comeuppance. Our billionaires live risk-free and care not a fig for public opinion.
Musk might yet die a noble timeless death in a pod on Mars eating ze bugs. So there’s that. I don’t have much hope that Bezos would do anything half as manly.
They have the money to inplement truely bad ideas.
While all of these points are relevant, I think that the main problems are urbanization and the education of women beyond high school…People in cities have always had far fewer children than country women, usually sub-replacement..Nineteenth century London had sub-replacement levels of fertility, and relied on immigration from the very fertile countryside…Teheran, with a far different culture, has a rate of 1.3…Then there is the education of women..In Germany, 40% of women with advanced educational credentials have zero children…Singapore, with the smartest people in the world, has a rate of 1.24…So it’s an IQ shredder, pretty much everywhere….
I would be just fine with a collapsed fertility rate. America with only 250 million people was pretty nice.
But the money men aren’t happy. They need growth, so they are trying to jam another hundred million immigrants into the land to keep selling real estate, cable TV and cell-phones.
Same, and exactly right. If not for libertarian dogma that believes an expanding population means a higher GDP and hence a better life, this would not be an issue. Since the GDP/population fetish remains a thing, immigrants are demanded even while they destroy quality of life. Not that collapsed TFR is without problems, but invasive non-whites create a literal dystopia.
Japan may be stagnant but it still is Japan. The United States is a strip mall with porn theaters
America was pretty nice when the pop was 250 mill and 90 percent white. I daresay the latter is even more important than the former.
I would (and often do) add the following factors to the overall issues of the West’s low birth rates: The Third World’s booming birth rates. Perhaps oversimplifying a bit: The only reason that the poor nations of the world were and are still able to enjoy standards of living – in local, relative terms – undreamed of by their ancestors of just a few generations back must be credited almost entirely to Western technology and aid. Now, it may be true that as a culture becomes more affluent it tends to have smaller families. But go tell that to nations… Read more »
I’m fairly certain dating apps are in the process of imploding what’s left of society.
Why should she put up with the slightest bit of irritation, disappointment, or even inconvenience from you when there are 20 more guys in her inbox?
20? LOL! If she is a blue haired hamplanet. If she is even slightly above average, more like 200. Men simply don’t comprehend the insane levels of thirst out there.
I helped one of my attractive female friends curate her dating profile. 200 messages a day was not uncommon.
It has completely broken the classic social interaction and is also why most Western wahmen are now insufferable c-nts by and large.
I’ve never used a dating app nor, for that matter, any of the host of Social Media catastrophes, which I identified as “hogwash” very early in the game.
Alas, a few years ago, I had to ask myself “WHAT HAS GOTTEN INTO THESE SKIRTS? WHAT IS WRONG WITH THEM?”
I have come to believe that the answer (in part, surely), is…
If we had 200 or even 20 of them lined up at all times, what would we treat women like? This probably wouldn’t do anything to depress TFR though.
The Smartphone is a veritable Box of Cocks for the young and not-so-young maidens of our present era.
Blake:
The Whore & Gambler by the State
Licencd build that Nations Fate
The Harlots cry from Street to Street
Shall weave Old Englands winding Sheet
The Winners Shout the Losers Curse
Dance before dead Englands Hearse
Prescient.
So you are saying the only thing that saves us is a technological collapse or return of a shame-based society? Either is fine by me.
Shame will more than suffice. Question as always then is Who? Whom? If the enemy captures the Ultimate Arbiter of What is Shameful, then we’re back to Square One. In fact that’s where we live now. Wokeness is enforced mainly by Shaming. We’re not setting the Morality; they are. Regular Z Man theme.
And who are the local enforcers of Shame in any society? The women. Especially the older women. Which are our most insane social termites just right now.
Gordian Knots –> National Razors… Something like that needed first.
In the 1970s, the average number of children per Mexican woman was just over 7. Now, I believe it is just under replacement rate of 2.1. This REALLY needs to be studied, as it is happening in all cultures, everywhere. Massive declines. The only population that has maintained TFR well above 7 – the Amish. Fun fact, over the past 120 years, their fertility rate has remained CONSTANT, through all of the GAE. In fact, by 2300, if the Amish TFR remains the same, there will be 100 million Amish in America. I am actually excited to see how that… Read more »
To keep growing long term, at some point the Amish are going to have to adapt. Specifically, become more willing to fight wars. Because they aren’t always going to have a benevolent state protecting them, especially not as they grow. And there isn’t going to be enough farmland for 100 million of them, requiring another adaptation.
Not enough farmland? Perhaps. But look at the areas they heavily populate, and look at the surface area and compare to Europe and how many people are in similar sized areas in Europe.
OH, IN, WI, PA, NY, and MI can easily hold 200MM people, no problem. But yes, pure farmers, that could be an issue.
As to war, who knows. But I’m rooting for the Amish baby boom!
Interesting questions you bring up about adaptation. I wonder about their percentages of defections over the past 150 years as the world modernized at an exponential rate? As their differences to the larger society became more pronounced? If Western governments fail and can no longer protect them, what does that adaptation look like? Does it happen or do they become Dodos? Or your second scenario where they remain protected but reach 100m and and exceed the availability of farmland to maintain their niche lifestyle? Maybe this is silly mental gymnastics question but I think not. The Amish seem to be… Read more »
Them and the Mormons Brother…Yes as soon as society breaks down the Amish will become slaves to whoever is the local warlord in their area…
Perhaps. Sweet summer children seems to fit the Amish but who knows, perhaps they do adapt.
I did forget about the Mormons, and they long ago established that they will fight and slaughter if necessary.
I get the impression that after they were so badly tarred by their anti-gay marriage push in California… they seemed to have detached from trying to improve the gentile world outside of how it directly effects them. I could be wrong, but it seems like they’ve damned the rest of us and let Romney just go ahead and help destabilize the West.
Lineman
Really?
You base that on what observations?
I’m surrounded by Amish/Mennonite families/communities,and if there was a breakdown of society, they wouldn’t notice it for a while.
As for trying to enslave them, my only comment is, good luck with that.
@ Bart
Why I say that is an agrarian society will always lose out to an industrial one…I would give you the Kulaks as an example…They survive and thrive right now because of the benevolence of their host nation…Do you see any Amish in any lands that are not accommodating towards them…
Hasids, too – Caucasian, although surely not “white”.
As long as everyone else’ TFR stays the same, 100 million is most likely doable. America only broke 100 million in 1915. They could easily support 100 million using mostly traditional farming, though not if the rest of the population grows and there are 500 million in the US.
You and Johnny are probably correct on the availability of farmland not being an issue. But as the stress increases I can see the Amish served up as the latest baddies for the Left. The attack groups will be funded by agribusiness. The anti-Amish groups will whine and whinge about their white supremacy. Imaginary history articles will be produced detailing how they took land from black sharecroppers and indigenous farmers. Every time food prices fluctuate up you’ll see pieces on how the racist greedy Amish are causing this because they aren’t providing the same food production as an industrial farming… Read more »
Nor will the Amish racist (somehow) furniture, stoves, and other manufactures escape Sauron’s leftist queer eye.
Now that you mention it, I’ve always thought those hex signs they put on their barns smack disturbingly of swastikas…
Somehow this is funny, sad and true, all at the same time. The more absurd the claims, the more likely they seem to stick.
Plus they speak German!! We wouldn’t want to speak German now, would we.!
Amish cashflows tend to be heavily dependent on construction and other work done for the English.
Grade school in the 60s, there were female teachers proud of being childless due to the “Population Bomb.”
If babies are fungible, there is no baby shortage.
Well, there is one problem that had been solved with several tools. The un-solving of that problem has been the project of the Enlightenment, and there is no solution to our current state without throwing the concept of liberty as a principal good overboard. The problem is that sperm are cheap and eggs are expensive. This suggests a very straightforward strategy game for women that looks exactly like what we see these days: an equilibrium of players and whores, except that the players are limited to the top 10% of men, as evaluated by whatever passes for the female mind.… Read more »
I love when that time machine conversation pops up about killing the mustachioed 20th C boogeyman. “No, Marx gets the bullet I think, after then suffragettes”… you get the best facial responses.
Yes, it’s true that sperm are cheap and eggs are expensive, but eggs have a relatively short shelf life, after which their bearer’s sexual market value plummets dramatically. Unfortunately, we don’t teach our daughters that and they find out to their sorrow that it’s too late baby. But even more ominously, many of them are aware of this and don’t care anyway. They are entitled to their choices, and I don’t think we should try to force otherwise, but those choices have second-order effects, namely that the children of their fecund sisters will be paying for their socialized pension schemes.… Read more »
The issue is a bit different in America, but here in Euroland we’re packed like sardines, so a temporary drop in fertility rates is not in itself a disastrous thing.
Also, I believe the problem will fix itself: when the welfare states disappears it will dawn on people that unless they want to spend their doting years begging in the streets, they better produce a litter of strong sons and make damned sure they are raised properly.
Among questions raised is why laudable demands for environmental improvements are made simultaneously with polices to increase migration into already overpopulated areas. How much of it is greed and how much is anti-white hatred is hard to disentangle.
[…] Zman points out some inconvenient truth. […]
As much as I don’t waive away chemicals and cultural toxins and believe these are real problems, I cannot really dismiss the economic aspects. When I was a teenager in high school, school counselors and other people of this type who interacted with the teenagers would bring out all the economics of children, always massively overstated. First they unleashed teenage degeneracy and then used the inevitable teen pregnancy problems that followed to demonize having children at all. It was always presented as slavery as well. that you would be a slave to your new “boss” a screaming child. They also… Read more »
It’s not just the west with below replacement levels. East Asians are having the same issue, and I believe south Asians as well. The only place above replacement levels? You guessed it, Africa wins again.
Africa is declining too. It just has farther to decline than the others. Lending more weight to an environmental cause. It’s everywhere.
The environmental caise is the birth control pill
Birth rates were declining before the pill. In the west anyway. Little doubt they wouldn’t have declined as much as they have without it.
In many Eastern traditions sons are vastly more desired than daughters, primarily (as I understand it) because of the dowry costs to the parents wishing to marry off a daughter. In places where abortion is legal, this has led to sex selection abortions and absurdly high male/female ratios. Goes without saying that marriage has suffered somewhat in these places.
Bottom line is we need to acknowledge the inherent differences between the sexes in order to get them to pair up again. Males are rational creatures and respond predictably to incentives. If men are required to take on the responsibilities of marriage in order to get laid, they will do what it takes to make it happen. If the reward for responsible behavior is a young, slender, submissive, feminine girl who will happily bear his children and stay loyal for life, young men will move heaven and earth to build civilization in order to obtain that reward. Females are emotional… Read more »
Yep. A lot of the harping on women in the DR is a tad misplaced. Women are simply following their biology. Women are extremely attuned to what the dominant tribe says is right and wrong. It’s why women are constantly scanning the media for what to wear, what to say, etc. They are looking for clues as to how to stay in with the tribe. It makes sense. Back in our hunter-gather days, it was live and death for a woman and her children that they not get kicked out the tribe. It was certain death. A man had the… Read more »
Until whites start to form their own communities with their own rules of behavior – and, importantly, kick out those who don’t follow those rules – women will continue to listen to the dominant tribe leaders for instruction.
That is all that matters Brother…We can talk about shit til the cows come home but nothing gets better until we do exactly that…Tribe Up or Die White Man…
Yep. Nature is putting on the pressure again. The good news is that people – even women – are losing their faith in the dominant tribe/culture. They don’t know what to replace it with, but you see it everywhere. Some of the bad things that we’re seeing in young men is oddly a good sign. They’re dropping out of society. That’s bad in the sense that they’re not doing anything, but it’s good in the sense that they no longer believe what the media, govt and schools are telling them. They’re looking for something. A lot of young women are… Read more »
Too bad multiple upvotes are not possible
Another ancillary factor in fertility decline is the ubiquity of porn, and the absence of any sanction against its use. When I was growing up in the 70s and 80s, yes, we would peruse the odd Playboy and Penthouse, but there was still a huge stigma against masturbation. We all denied doing it, and any boy who who admitted to it would be mocked and scorned mercilessly. Was it a lie? Of course, but a very useful one. If peer pressure discourages you from expending sexual energy autoerotically you will be compelled to expend it usefully, i.e. in pursuit of… Read more »
Absence of disapprobation? I think it’s even sicker than that. Pornography use is not just encouraged, but you’ll actually be called a weirdo by the usual suspects if you’re adamant about avoiding it. I’ve noticed in the past that they’ll occassionally be these little “no fap” crazes on the Internet where these young guys make a big deal about avoiding onanism. Whenever they break out, there are always a bunch of Left-wing crazies that come out of the woodwork to call them freaks and deviants because they don’t want to spend all day at home gherkin jerkin’ (like any normal… Read more »
And (((who))), pray tell, was behind the mainstreaming of porn? Guys like Marvin Miller and Samuel Roth: “Samuel Roth, who ran an adult book-selling business in New York City, was convicted under a federal statute criminalizing the sending of “obscene, lewd, lascivious or filthy” materials through the mail for advertising and selling a publication called American Aphrodite (“A Quarterly for the Fancy-Free”) containing literary erotica and nude photography.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roth_v._United_States “In 1971, Marvin Miller, an owner/operator of a California mail-order business specializing in pornographic films and books, sent out a brochure advertising books and a film that graphically depicted sexual activity… Read more »
But not Hugh Hefner, Bob Guccione and Larry Flynt.
Sure, but those guys came along after the Tribe removed the legal barriers to obscenity.
I saw what may be the most important and terrifying meme of all.
On the left, a glowering, heavy-faced sheeboon;
On the right, a winsome Irish lass.
“Nothing should radicalize you more
That in the future
There will be billions of these
And only a few million of these”
There aren’t a few million of them now. When I was a teenager there was an academic mania for finding and casting out heretical 2D “projections” of the globe. The familiar world maps favored by European sea navigators enlarged the port-heavy areas of the northern hemisphere at the geometrical expense of areas that sailors did’t worry so much about. Very handy for finding places of historical note, especially as a kid hearing of them for the first time. The first scrap-the-map sales pitch I heard was that in actual area Russia is gigantic compared to the USA, and Americans need… Read more »
Which is a bigger problem:
Obnoxious childless sjw women and gays
Single mothers that have cluster b disorder
I feel that the latter is actually a bigger problem. The former can definitely do damage, but not as much as the latter
The latter manufactures a lot of the former.
While chemical exposure isn’t by any means good, I think it all comes down to selfishness. Very few women my age have kids on any replacement level. It all comes down to selfishness. They don’t want to feel tied down. They want the trip to Hawaii, etc. Women like little comforts. By their 40’s many know that they made a terrible mistake and hence the vodkas with flavored seltzer water. I was just joking about this topic yesterday with a friend. Look at what we were processing as kids, look at the movies of the 80’s. Working Girl. Pretty Woman,… Read more »
The attractive single woman in her 20s/30s already has, in this day and age, most everything a person could want, (although she might not recognize that fact), so long as she is willing to put out. There is virtually nothing you can offer her that is better than what she already has (at least not in an immediate sense). If you won’t give her what she wants, some other guy will. Today, right now. She doesn’t have to wait. There is no such thing as delayed gratification for this demographic. Why should she care about reproducing? Because it will mean… Read more »
JR Wirth: “If all of society tells you from decades 1) be selfish, 2) be a wh- re, people are mostly meat robots who do what they’re told.”
==========
There is no question but that:
A) Yuge portions of the population cannot grok that they are victims of ongoing psychological warfare campaigns [psy-ops], and that
B) Feminism was a psy-op designed precisely to destroy White Christian fertility rates [largely as an act of meta-revenge directed at the memory of Austrian Mustache Guy].
Bourbon, I told you I would keep you posted
Last week my triple jabbed (at least) cousin gave birth to a full term evidently healthy baby White boy. Mother also seems fine. Her also triple jabbed (at least) sister is due in a couple of months.
AWESOME!!!
[ERROR: Your comment was too short. Please go back and try your comment again.]
I think sex in the city had the biggest impact, i remember all the girls in high school worshiping it. Not to mention many of the girls in my grade came from broken marriages. Had no spiritual life, the list goes on and on. These people never had a chance.
The damage by Sex in the City was truly catastrophic, and the reason my childless female cousins are seeing shrinks to this day wondering where it all went wrong. The 90’s were a continuation of all of that 70s and 80s mythology put into shows like that. Ally McBeal was another one by the way. Wanting a kid but not willing to give up being a latte sipping 80 hour workweek attorney. Everyone in the office still having time to screw their brains out.
In my mind, it was the Devil’s Triumvirate: Seinfeld: 1989-1998 Friends: 1994-2004 Sex and the City: 1998-2004 After those three psyops had poisoned the culture, the comity & polity of Norman Rockwell’s America was simply obliterated. Especially regarding the phenomenon of “Snark”. The Devil’s Triumvirate taught all the innocent naive shiksa gals how to rip apart & decimate a White man’s sense of self worth via snark & snark alone. The prophet, H.L. Mencken, PBUH, foresaw it earlier than most: “How little it takes to make life unbearable: a pebble in the shoe, a cockroach in the spaghetti, a woman’s… Read more »
In 2000 TIME Magazine had a cover story called “Who Needs A Husband?” featuring the cast of Sex And The City.
It’s been all downhill from there.
Julia Roberts was the earliest example I noticed of “them” taking a woman who was not beautiful and telling us she was beautiful, holding her up as the standard. It’s only gotten worse in the 30+ years since. It doesn’t have to be hugely conspiratorial, could be just as simple as female casting directors choosing women who make them feel better about themselves. I think that’s a big part of it. But not all of it.
And after that, and even harder to accept, was that chick in “Sex in the City.”
Do women view the arorementioned ladies more attractive than men do? Maybe they find these ladies more relatable than the beautiful women.
You are confusing the drivers. Women seek social and peer status. That is the main driver of fashion, trends, and dating/mating behavior. Horseface Parker, designer shoes, and gay brunch friends were high status signifiers within female groups, though not attractive (or actively repellant) to men.
Grease (1978) wasn’t any better. The sweet, chaste, innocent heroine (played by Olivia Newton John), was ultimately corrupted into slatternliness by her peers, and this was celebrated unabashedly. She was liberated, by gawd! Making the film even more subversive and destructive, it was set in the 1950s, a decade noted for its traditional morality. The message here was one of two things, both of which were terrible. First, the moral purity of the 50s was a myth; there was no real difference between 1959 and 1969. Or second, the moral purity was real, but was worthy of contempt because it… Read more »
Grease is one of those things I’ve never gotten around to seeing and hopefully never will. I was scared off by Xanadu and could never again watch Olivia Newton John.
Well, she was no Katharine Hepburn, but Grease, if you can ignore the nauseating message, is an entertaining musical film.
Among progressives (my row of the cabbage patch,) many women have raised their standards so high that few men can meet them, leading to a large number of women who prefer to remain single, divorcees, lesbians who out number their gay male peers and nonbinaries, up to 40% at the local colleges. Also many members of groups that are advantaged at the expense of the other group(s) that belong(s) to their cohort — women at men’s expense, non-whites at whites’ expense — become contemptuous of those to whom they’ve been preferred: affirmative action, the “woman without a man is like… Read more »
imbroglio: “a large number of women who prefer to remain single, divorcees, lesbians who out number their gay male peers and nonbinaries, up to 40% at the local colleges” There are a number samizdat dissidents who are now wondering whether there ever really was such a thing as a natural innate feminine nurturing instinct [with regards to a woman’s newborn child], or whether it was actually LEARNED behavior enforced by an ambient moral [not amoral] culture & zeitgeist. If feminine nurturing is indeed learned, rather than innate, then we’re in deep deep deep Doo-Doo, because it sure ain’t being taught… Read more »
In most (but not all) of the lesser animal species it seems clearly innate, not learned. But they lack the capacity to think about it.
I have borne witness:
1. Taiwanese: clung to her trad-femme through the Ivy League, but had it permanently blasted out of her in L-School.
2. Indonesian (Batok, no less!): the other girls in the e-commerce factory wouldn’t put up with it, and “turned” her in her early thirties.
The problem with females is, generally, other females.
Shame to hear that about the Batak girl. I’ve been to northern Sumatra a couple times and they were generally demure Christians, warm but ladylike.
Lots of good comments today on the bad effects of allowing women to have birth control, education, and careers. As a contrarian, I ask, “How could you convince a talented and pretty young woman that she should forego those things?” Until recently, I would have argued that most white women share an inherited white female nature, which is best satisfied by being a mother in a traditional family. Now, I’m not so sure about my appraisal of white female nature. With social media, I get a sense that actual female nature has been revealed and it is much more mercenary… Read more »
It’s hard. The best way is to quietly show them women in their 40s and 50s who never had kids out of choice. No need to make a speech about it. Just let them see the results.
LineInTheSand: “how do you traditional parents sell traditional roles to young women who have other options?”
Remove the options.
Giving women options is like giving gasoline & matches to toddlers.
Remove the options.
Giving women options is like giving gasoline & matches to toddlers.
Ding ding ding…Winner Winner Chicken Dinner…You can only do that if you are the dominant tribe though so if White People truly want change, not just to hash things out endlessly with no action they are going to have to put effort in to becoming the dominant Tribe…
No, “let them just see the results” is as copium as “the market will sort out the woke.” You constantly remind them that being a mother is her best and highest purpose and the only way to happiness, and constantly point out the error and lifelong pain of childlessness. Christianity seems indispensable in this. It helps that so many in the cohort of childbearing are having fertility struggles: look how hard and expensive it is to have a child after 30, and how much harder it is to be a parent, and how you can end up with a lonely… Read more »
I suppose I would say the best way would be to be a good example of what you want for them male or female…The second would be have them around people who also are doing that with their kids…Third would be have them involved with activities that promote that some examples would be church, homesteading, homeschooling, food coops etc etc…
A woman is defined by her social group far more than men. Sending your daughter to just any college and expecting her to maintain the principles you taught her is suicidal. The less she is exposed to the toxicity of modernity, the better. The faster she is inundated with a clique of married, mature women, the better. There are still good colleges out there, but three quarters of women and probably half of men in college have no business being there. She should be mature enough to marry an established man by the time she’s 20, and that should be… Read more »
Actually you reminded me of the small sample size of Amish that I am familiar with. The one woman my wife is friends with has 8 kids, and the “kid” we have help around the barn also comes from a family of 8. However childlessness is not unknown, in fact the sister of the first woman had zero kids and never married and probably the best known Amish woman in town never had kids either. Their overall fertility rate is still much better than the local Englishers though in an age not too far gone it would have been called… Read more »
If a girl is talented, the modern workplace is just about the worst possible place to display that talent. The vast majority of jobs–ca. 85%–in AINO are simply functionary positions in which the primary requirements are ass-kissing collegiality and espousing Leftist fatuities. High intelligence and independent thinking may actually be bars to advancement. A girl with talent would be far better off using it to research and write, or produce art, something she could do at home while she cares for her children, runs the household, and cooks for her family.
Yep. Leap into the corporate world and she’s an extremely tiny fish in a tremendously large pond, or she becomes a homemaker and is mistress of all she surveys.
I wonder why that’s so hard to see and understand.
I read somewhere that everything about our current societal structure revolves around suppressing the “slow life” individuals and expanding the “fast life” individuals. Think about the median opportunity for someone turning 22 years old today. Houses are absurdly expensive, your salary is barely enough to cover the rent, and you don’t see any quick path out. Slow life people will hunker down and try to position themselves decently before having children, they don’t need to be rich but they certainly will want to provide a stable and safe life for their children. They’ll also want to ensure their spouse is… Read more »
“Slow life people will hunker down and try to position themselves decently before having children, they don’t need to be rich but they certainly will want to provide a stable and safe life for their children. They’ll also want to ensure their spouse is also capable of providing that stability.”
And sometimes the slow life people will conclude that they can never make enough money to provide a stable, safe life for their children. Thus, they won’t have any.
Yes. I can see big-brained K-selecteds saying to hell with it, I’m not going to mate with just anybody and raise kids in an apartment. OTOH I always tell young people to stop getting so caught up in the macro (which is, was, and will always be awful). There are still lots of opportunities out there and you can get by with much less than you think. Plenty of helicopter parents whose kids are complete zeroes, and I personally know young people who weren’t handed anything successfully raising broods of two to four. And on yet the other hand, I… Read more »
Just so happens I finally got around to watching Children Of Men last week. Clearly its message was that the strong black immigrant woman’s fertility will save the west from itself. And the white man must sacrifice himself for her. Still an entertaining film despite the poz. I don’t know the “true cause(s)” any better than anyone else. I lean to the environmental for whatever that’s worth. But without reproduction being a or the priority of society, the root cause(s), whatever they are, can never be addressed at scale. People must first care about reproduction before they can be motivated… Read more »
In a society that is ugly, trashy and meaningless, few people will sacrifice an iota of material well-being for that society. And that means having children will be a very low priority.
let’s be frank here, since time immemorial women needed men to feed them and protect them, that’s why they married them and had their kids.
Women nowadays don’t need to marry cause government assumed the role of a man, now it’s the goverment that offers women protection and welfare, not their husbands.
quarantine hasn’t resulted in baby boom cause suga daddy government continues to cock block the men in their society.
let’s say western goverments go bankrupt, then women become dependent on their husbands and boyfriends again, resulting in baby boom.
It’s that simple and stupid.
The state has taken ownership of women. And it being far more powerful than any individual, the women are fine with it. But since you need actual men to make babies, fertility drops. Major part of the problem
the final step in hypergamy. What individual man can compete with the strength?
Then the answer is become the state if you want change…
Indeed, strength was supposed to say state. The best life is the observant life. I learned much about women in high school. Watching them interact at lunch, shaming those who were on the outs for the week or school year. Getting in trouble in class, and then its all forgotten when the tears were turned on. Most people do not advance intellectually or emotionally beyond high school.
For negroes, the emotional maturation process seems to stop at the age of 9. And I’m not joking.
I have two boys in their early to mid 20’s and a girl in her early 20s. (the boys are engineers and the girl is in her last year of a degree in mathematics). A significant % of the boy’s possible pool are “wine guzzling whores” and/or tattooed landwhales and/or narcissistic social media whores and/or cluster b nightmares (their words, not mine). A significant % of the girl’s possible pool are pale porn addict shut-ins and/or landwhales and/or narcissistic “Chads” and/or brave video game warriors (her words, not mine). Before you recommend to “find someone at church”, thanks grandparents, know… Read more »
Saw whole packs of “tattooed (female) land whales” in the Gulch in Nashville a week ago. It was a warm day and these young wymyn were in printed t-shirts/tank tops moving along the sidewalk in groups of 10-12. Some were fat and some not. I’m guessing they were headed to bars/restaurants as bachelorette party-goers or sorority celebrants. No normal male of my vintage would have tried to break into THAT crowd to meet someone that attracted his eye. Very weird sociological development, in my opinion.
My wife had a friend stop out at our place with her daughter who resembled that remark (though her friend does not) and afterwards I remarked to my wife how it even ‘clicks’ that a woman in the prime of her youth is less attractive than her overweight mom who is in her 60s.
I work at a university where there frequently are marauding hordes of future students traipsing across campus on sponsored indoctrination tours. Inevitably, the parents are there, too. And I have very often found myself glancing past the daughters in favor of the mothers. It really seems quite obvious that we are becoming uglier by the generation.
The only advice I could offer is find a place that still has those values they seek…I know the job prospects will suck but might be worth it to snag a tradwife or trad husband…
McLeod: “You couldn’t do a better job at destroying civilization if you tried.” Recently, I’ve come to the conclusion that the Globalist Depopulationist Oligarchs have been planning this thing not just for decades now, but for well over a century. I’m betting that no later than about the 1890 to 1910 timeframe, there were already secret cabals of Oligarchs working furiously on the PQ [the Prole Question]. As you move into the 20th Century, you get Margaret Sanger & Griswold & Roe, but then I think something very earth-shaking happened in 1983: Kary Mullis’s invention of PCR, and the sequencing… Read more »
McLeod, ladies and gentlemen! McLeod! He’s our winner of the Blackest Pill of the Day award!
Heh. (I gave you an upvote, BTW.)
This is another problem that will be solved by collapse and the return of real hardship. No woman is going to prioritize birth control if borderline starvation is a part of her daily routine. And men will once again have to fight to survive in a world of tangible danger in the first person. Those that succeed will garner females now hungry for security and resources, and woke feminism will die off immediately when the price is some missing teeth. Then, and only then, will fertility regain its natural priority in any surviving species. Collapse leads to fog, which leads… Read more »
We chatter about the best way to rearrange the chairs on the deck of the Titanic and then TomA arrives and restates the simple, obvious, and unpleasant truth. TomA’s writings often emphasis the inevitability of collapse. While I am not very religious, his words call to mind lines from one of T. S. Eliot’s most Christian plays: O weariness of men who turn from GOD To the grandeur of your mind and the glory of your action, … Turning from your vacancy to fevered enthusiasm For nation or race or what you call humanity; Though you forget the way to… Read more »
The future is not bleak, but it is a very hard gauntlet. Be fit and strong.
Amen Brother the only thing I would add is the future is Tribal and if you don’t have that then no matter how fit and strong you are you will be meat for those who do have Tribe…
Agreed that this problem is multivariate, but I think another big cause has been the ever expanding access to pornography. It’s kind of amazing to think that as recently as the 50’s, American society was willing to ban ridiculous smut like Lady Chatterley’s Lover even though it was only in novel form. Now the most degenerate filth is available to nearly everyone at any time and in any place essentially for free. It’s pretty lamentable – but also understandable – that a lot of men will decide to avoid putting up with women and their attendant s**t when they can… Read more »
There’s a difference between the Cato/reason crew and the mises types. Don’t the mises types believe that if you want a community without porn, you should be able to have one?
That might well be the case. I’m not as familiar with the Mises guys and what they’ve written on the topic. At the same time though, you’re probably going to run into the usual problem with libertarianism. You might want a community without pornography, but what if a bunch of your neighbors want as much pornography as possible? How do you force them out initially to create the community you want and how do you keep them out?
Libertarians prefer a liberated Hell to a regulated Heaven.
Great post, great comments. This was particularly resonant: “The question as to the effects of birth control pills can never be answered since all of modern society is built upon their usage.” Every system in modern society is like this now. Division I football and basketball are permanently wrecked; the colleges are professional teams warping the whole academy around themselves. Millions of people earning good livings off Division I athletics will never agree to reform because they don’t have to. And I needn’t comment on the academic mess; two-thirds of colleges should not exist. Two-thirds of college curricula should not… Read more »
> The Chinese historians will shake their heads at the wonder and tragedy of it all.
Lol. China’s fertility crisis is many times worse than ours, but no less deserving of in-depth investigation by future historians as well.
No, it’s not “many times” worse. The US and Chinese birthrates are both well below replacement rate.
China 1.2 births per woman
US 1.7 births per woman
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fertility_rate
Our catastrophe is only slightly slower-moving, and they are starting from a much bigger population base.
Note, that includes non-Whites in the US, who are not a net benefit to our people. White rate was about 1.59 in 2021. Probably a bit lower now.
Since all “future historians” will be African origin, the quality of scholarship may not be of the highest standard.
Black fertility rates will collapse as soon as the west stops giving them aid.
The only reason they have high fertility rates is because of the so called free food that they receive from the excess production. The local landscape and the population cannot support the existing numbers without importing food.
Africa could be a land of plenty if its native inhabitants were closer to homo sapiens than orang outans.
I’m hoping the cockroach historians will redeem the integrity of the profession.
Just so. The rot is so comprehensive and profound that there is not the slightest shred of hope that white civilization can be refashioned prior to a major collapse of some sort. It’s simply a matter of when the denouement occurs and what form it takes.
We can do something so when it does happen we are in the position to use the opportunities presented to implement the 14 words…We have to be Building Tribe/Communities of our people so our way of life is preserved when it all comes falling down…
There are so many factors, all applying downward pressure on childbearing and populating of White society. Relentless nagging from the evolutionary dead-ends (gays, lesbians, trannies) to not only tolerate but actively celebrate their degeneracy is just one. The economic inviability of single-income households, especially involving young married couples hoping to raise offspring is another. Easy divorce and the obscenely anti-male bias of the courts is enough to dissuade legions of otherwise family-friendly males from falling into the sinkhole of gynocentric hell that is a society which pedestalizes loose women at the expense of all men foolish enough to become trapped… Read more »
Don’t know your economic situation, but my family is similar to yours–two adult boys and a married daughter. We’ve told the kids we’ll help them out with the costs of family raising as an incentive to try to get some grandkids. Plus, with the cost of housing, etc, raising a family on an average wage now days is very hard.
Decline in fertility began in France, long before the Pill or the Industrial Revolution.
Is there something about Catholicism that leads to cultural and literal sterility ?
I don’t know but there does seem to be a link between increasing the number of Catholics in your country and the worst aspects of modernity. Look at the USA:the less Protestant it is the worse it becomes.
This is one of the dumbest things I have ever read here.
Well, he’s not wrong that the lowest fertility in the West is among formerly Catholic countries. Italy and Spain are insanely low. France would be low as well, but Muslims and Africans living there keep up the rate somewhat.
Correlation =/= causation. In this case, the post was either a troll of a case of extreme stupidity.
Unless you ignore the previous two thousand years in the same countries. Then he has a point.
I’m smelling the signature brimstone scent of a jesuit in this discussion.
G.K. Chesterton wrote in 1926 an article against contraception. That was four years before the Church of England’s Seventh Lambeth Conference of 1930, Resolutions 9-10, that allowed contraception, a first for a major Protestant denomination; the rest soon followed. GKC: “It is unclean in the light of the instincts; it is unnatural in relation to the affections; it is part of a general attempt to run the populace on a routine of quack medicine and smelly science; it is mixed up with a muddled idea that women are free when they serve their employers but slaves when they help their… Read more »
“Starting in the middle of the last century, the role of women started to change. First, they were encouraged to work outside the home, in addition to being a wife and mother. Then they were encouraged to work in lieu of becoming a wife and mother. The final leg on the transformation of the female role in society was the career woman.”
I think the final leg of the transformation is that women become dudes.
Ban women in the workplace until age 40.
Ban dogs. How many young white women do you know who are “dog moms” rather than actual moms?
Problem solved.
I just made a comment related to this below. Look at Saudi Arabia. Most women there don’t work and those entering the workforce are mostly over 40. Yet, their fertility rate has been going down since the 1980’s and is just at replacement level right now.
Muslims are also anti-canine, which is why the birthrate is not falling below replacement. But seriously, I think the material comfort that is brought on by capitalism/liberalism/materialism makes people value security and comfort over insecurity (financial insecurity over having children) and discomfort (babies and children are uncomfortable). Look at all the war-town hellholes or other trashy and superstitious 3rd world countries. Why are Yemenis having children? Why are Nigerians? Afghanis? You’d think those are the worst place to have them. Yet they do. Maybe in areas where life is fragile and rather worthless, some ancestral drive kicks in that makes… Read more »
But materialism certainly robs people of the desire to procreate…
Truth right there… I would also say that materialism hinders people from building any type of Community because it’s always what’s in it for me attitude instead of what’s in it for my kid’s future…
You are onto something, but then again, Ukrainians are not having have children either…
I think materialism / ease of being, nanny states, contraceptives, general whorishness, women in workforce, posrn everywhere, toxins in food and water, etc. are all contributing factors, but maybe there is something deeper going on. A spiritual crisis.
Which tells me that even Saudi Islamic totalitarianism is increasingly hollow and superficial. Maybe that’s why they are blowing money on stupid projects like Neom.
Sometimes “modest proposals” are actually quite worthy of consideration…
Best analysis I’ve read of the problem. Kudos! My son went to university in the USA and was more or less horrified by his female fellow attendees. He followed me to Argentina and at 33 met a 23 year old Argentine who’d been the chief majorette at Carnaval who was in our province for a biochemistry seminar just prior to her graduation. No tats, no piercings, very proper (though poor) family. She and my son now have three children: nine, eight, five years of age. The childless poof Greg Johnson informed me that because my dtr-in-law has Guaraní blood, they… Read more »
“Argentine women in general have no use for feminist nonsense.”
The famous photo of screaming naked feminists protesting “violence against women” is from Buenos Aires.
I do agree though that Argentina is worth a visit and maybe more.
Those women are porteñas and usually confined to Buenos Aires. Trust-fund hippies and remittance men hippies/hippettes are scattered in the interior and have learned to keep their heads down.
Montefrio: With all due respect, why does the ‘solution’ to the deliberate degradation of White, western women always seem to be ‘marry and procreate with non-White women’? I hope you can understand that I am not attacking your family personally, but attempting to look at the roots of what I consider a wholesale, worldwide campaign to eliminate the White race (via contraception, abortion, pornography, male and female degeneracy, etc.). And I must also protest your straw man positive comparison of people with some White racial admixture as the only alternative to the genetic and social dead-end of homosexuality. This ought… Read more »
“White” is a state of mind.
Per complexion and genetics, our weakness ensured that these will become diluted.
And yes, our weakness is manifest in what’s become of our females.
Thank you for your courteous and reasoned comment. I’m not offering my son’s example as A “solution”; it was HIS solution. When I first met my future dtr-in-law it was clear to me that they were very much in love. Love conquers all, they say, so I wasn’t about to try and stand in its way. With time, my dtr-in-law won me over as well. Three of my four grandparents were immigrants to the USA and my children were largely raised abroad. Race is less of a litmus test for me and mine than it is for others, perhaps owing… Read more »
Thank you for posting this. I’ve been around here basically since the beginning of the blog and have read your comments with interest over the years. I get a lot of grief around here for arguing that the best path forward for most dissidents is to expatriate as soon as practical. The country that we knew and loved growing up is gone, and it’s never coming back. There are plenty of other places in the world to live. One of my kids has already left with no plans to return. Another plans to leave within a few years. I am… Read more »
Predictable, wanting to flee from the mess your generation had a great part in contributing too…
Thanks and I’ll be delighted to answer any and all questions. As it happens, I know Ecuador reasonably well and have a lady friend there who is a gold mine of info seeing as she is a relative of a former president and is a successful business woman. Where I live, there are very few expats, mostly European, but we have no club or even regular get-togethers.
I’ve lived in Central America for almost a decade now.
Multitude of causes, yes, but you can also see where some buck the trend, i.e., one part of the solution. Let’s limit our view to whites, since, well, that’s all I care about. Who has kids? The obvious answer is religious folks. Makes sense for, again, obvious reasons. However, in my little area, I notice that you are seeing a mini baby boom. Even the mildly religious or non-religious who WANT to have kids are leaning toward three kids. Why? I have no idea, but once it became the norm, no one questioned it. What’s my point. I think that… Read more »
Of course, by the time that they do kick in, those whites will be swamped by non-whites.
Exactly which is why those who want families need to be building Tribe with others, forming Communities, and then breaking away to have their own country when the time is ripe…
Yep. We’ll never “outbreed” other groups, nor should we try.
Form communities. It’s that simple – and that hard.
Yea the ones that have the means to do it are to selfish and the ones who would want it don’t have the means…It’s a dilemma that I have yet to come up with a solution for…
At the risk of question begging, you cannot have communities without people, and you dont have people without having children; the more children, the bigger and more potential the community has. A community without childbearing is a retirement home, and then later, inevitably, a graveyard.
As the great sage said at CtH, “BUNZ -> OVENZ” (pbuh).
Many factors can be pointed out here. Certainly, basic economics plays a huge role. If one wishes to be middle class and is not born to a trust fund, more than two kids is a no go. Even one kid today is difficult. Just to start out, go price a car seat for a baby and then the booster seat, etc. One of many, many expenses . . . all the way to four years of college. Of course, none of that is necessary if you inherit 40 acres and mule plus farm for your trad wifu. Good luck with… Read more »
The baby car seat thing is a favorite hobbyhorse for me. Go price a new 3 row SUV or van that can fit 3 car seats. $50k to $110k for a new minivan or Suburban. Plus childcare and healthcare and living quarters, the 2-to-3 delta requires another $50k in annual income to stay UMC. Hope you win the Powerball.
Another reason for low fertility is female hypergamy. Women seek to marry someone either of equal or higher economic status than themselves. They generally won’t marry men who earn less than them. Women now account for 60 %-plus of college students. The younger among them already reportedly out-earn males in the same age range. Short of restricting female opportunities, the only way to solve the problem of low fertility is for women to mate with fellows of lesser means. That’s anathema to the spoiled ladies of today’s West.
Girl Power = civilizational death.
Michel Houellebecq’s Elementary Particles predicted this spot-on.
Though women have always wanted high-status males; the problem is women are now granted a very long window in which to date and find that high-status male. It used to be that if a woman wasn’t married by 25, there was something wrong with her.
It’s still fairly true. Most women are dating their future husband by ~25. Unfortunately, many women don’t understand this, but by ~26 or 27, as all their friends start getting married, these women quickly realize that their window is rapidly closing (maybe already has closed). For most, it’s too late.
Women need to be told this. Find your husband by 25 or 26 or your odds of ever finding a husband drop dramatically.
> Women need to be told this. Find your husband by 25 or 26 or your odds of ever finding a husband drop dramatically.
Even 25 is way too late. The best potential husbands she will ever have a chance at are sitting next to her in class.
Citizen of a Silly Country: “Women need to be told this. Find your husband by 25 or 26 or your odds of ever finding a husband drop dramatically.”
The worst of all is what happens at the end of the twenties; when women turn 30, the number of viable follicles in their ovaries falls off a cliff [literally collapsing at a logarithmic rate]:
https://tinyurl.com/yn8cuzbd
It’s imperative that Chad gets your daughter knocked up before the age of 30.
Absolutely imperative.
!!! NO COCK BLOCKING !!!
I would tell young men the corollary: if she’s not already taken by 25, she’s not worth taking. And 25 is kinda stretching it tbh.
Technology and media have also short-circuited women’s hypergamic impulses and redefined what a “high-status” male is in their minds. Historically, the hottest young lady in town might pair up with the starting quarterback at her local high school. Now, they hold out for the millionaire pro athlete who’s also an astronaut and shares her retarded politics. It’s as damaging to her as porn brain is to males. Now everyone — even high quality men — she meets in her regular life will seem unattractive in her eyes, and we wouldn’t want princess to have to “settle” for an unattractive husband,… Read more »
Yeah, I used to joke to my kids’ women friends about that. A college-educated woman just expects to marry a college-educated man. “How,” I asked, “do you expect that to happen when you out-number them nearly 2 to 1?” They just shrugged, figuring that they’d be the lucky ones. I then turned the knife and told them that it was worse than even that. College now are filled with Asians and South Asians along with whites. And guess what, white women generally don’t want to marry Asian or South Asian men, but white men generally are fine with, certainly, Asian… Read more »
“Here comes my Dad, guys. Don’t ask him about politics.” 🙂
Pretty much. But maybe one or two got the message.
Citizen: Keep preaching. My older son makes me look like a civnat, and while his White wife is not necessarily who I would have chosen for him by age, appearance, and temperament, he appears to be happy and adores his very phenotypically White son. My younger son is socially awkward (and we think perhaps a bit on the spectrum), but even while he insists he doesn’t want to hear about ‘politics (when I mention social issues), he is very aware of race and the immense social and economic pressures against White men. And he knows we would never accept him… Read more »
That’s all we can hope for Brother…
Great point, and I’ll add that in appearance and behavior, there’s a Chad shortage. Women are biologically wired to be attracted to masculine, strong, fit, confident men. There’s an over-abundance of weak, feminized soyboys today, who are repulsive to women.
Hmm, why is it then when a single woman is looking for a sperm donor they all want tall white nordic males with high iq’s. Even the blacks do-
This is also true at the societal level. White men hide and cower behind non-whites or if they go front and center they do not speak the truths that must be said. The truths I am speaking of are the truths that whites must assert their group interest and stand up for themselves. I believe a lot of the collective anger and bitterness white women have is due directly to this natural phenomenon. Women are annoyed by betas who try and hit on them. They want to be claimed but by an alpha. When men do not stand up for… Read more »
Absolutely right about the overabundance of low-T soyboys in today’s sexual marketplace. A major issue here is that too many people of marrying age — of BOTH sexes — are simply unmarriageable. Women have become insufferable while men have become weak and ineffectual. It’s a sorry situation.
I disagree…young men today have much better muscle mass and upper-body strength than when I was a teen/20-something. Not all, but many more. Look at a beach movie from the 1980s and you’ll see what I mean. The most popular online influencers now are health-fitness-diet gurus. (Though I only know of the ones that are right-wing or Joe Roganesque. Are there any on the left?) There are more soyboys, but also more chads. And quite a few of those chads are very dismissive of women. Maybe it’s a combination of THOTs repulsed by right-wing males, and right-wing males are actively… Read more »
Unless Gandydancer comes along to upstage you, that’ll stand as the most ridiculous take in this thread.
Just take a look at concert footage from the 80’s, e.g. Heavy Metal Parking Lot (1986) or the US Festival in 1983. The state of male fitness and virility is light years ahead of what you see today. Sure, there may be a few more gym rats these days, but in those days even having a somewhat paunchy gut would stand out.
The great Pat Buchanan wrote of the WC fertility crisis 20+ years ago in Death of the West. His money quote from the book was “The single worst invention in the history of WC was the birth control pill”.