Whopperville

In his podcast on the Persian empire, Dan Carlin told a story from Herodotus about a Spartan Greek who found his way in the court of Cyrus the Great. In the story, the emperor made the point to the Greek visitor that the Persians would have little trouble subduing the Greeks because the Greeks were all liars. They lied to one another in their political debates, and they lie to one another in their economic dealings. A collection of liars could never band together and fight the Persians.

The story is certainly apocryphal, as Herodotus was fond of explaining history through fictional accounts. Carlin further dramatizes it in his telling, in order to emphasize the point Herodotus was making with the story. This fanciful tale gets across the point that lying was highly immoral in Persian society. So much so that lying could get you executed if you lied to the wrong person. In other words, a made-up story by a famous storyteller helps explain the honesty of the Persians.

In fairness to the Greeks, not all of them were liars. The Spartans, for example, were not as fanatical about truth telling as the Persians, but they also looked down about the perfidy of the Athenians. Most of the Greek city-states shared their disdain for lying to one degree or another, depending upon their embrace of democracy. The more they embraced the Athenian democratic culture, the more likely they were to have a casual relationship with the truth.

It is something familiar to us today. As the democratic mindset has settled upon us, the truth has been pushed to the edges of the public domain. Back in the bad old days when certain parts of the population were discouraged from voting, politicians were discouraged from lying. As we have become obsessed with making sure every voice is heard, politicians are now rewarded for perfidy. America is on the verge of becoming a nation of liars, just as Cyrus described the Greeks.

This is by design. The argument for democracy and the “free market” is that the magic of the marketplace will solve the perfidy problem. The expert who is always wrong, due to incompetence or discerption, will be revealed and ignored. The seller who rips off his customers will be found out and before long word will get around that he is a bad guy, and no one should buy from him. We no longer need a moral code in a democratized society, because the market will do the policing.

It turns out that this was a lie. For example, the drug makers lie about all sorts of things and never face any consequences. The miracle weight loss drug Ozempic may cause your heart to explode, but at least you will look good in the casket. Time after time we see the drug companies roll out miracle cures that are worse than the thing they seek to cure, but they suffer no loss of reputation. The people who needed to redefine the word “vaccine” are no redefining the word “healthy.”

It is not just that these companies are not held accountable, but that they continue to hold a prominent place in society. It is not that all their products are deadly or simply a fraud like the Covid vaccines. There are drugs that genuinely improve the health of people, but many of their products are a disaster. In some cases, like the Sackler family’s scheme to addict the world to opioids, the sole motivation behind the product is to harm the intended audience.

Consequence-free lying is most obvious in the public square. Here is a thread about a fellow calling himself Phillips P. OBrien. He is a professor of strategic studies at a Scottish university. He likes to go on about the war in Ukraine. He has been wrong about every aspect of the war, even some that no one thought were important to discuss, suggesting he is a man on a mission. That mission is to deceive, which may explain why he spells his own name wrong.

Of course, the news media is full of lies and there are never any consequences to the media organs for lying. We just went through an election in which the media consciously organized itself around the promotion of Kamala Harris. A major part of that campaign was to bullshit the public into thinking she was a wildly popular person to whom the nation was flocking. They lied and they knew they were lying, yet they will keep on lying about the next thing.

The election is a useful way to imagine the opposite. Imagine a world where lying was the worst offense to the general morality. So much so that people convicted of lying had to be held in special prisons, like we do with child molesters. It is the world of the ancient Persians where men swear oaths like, “If I am lying, I’m dying” in which the result of a lie would be death. The news coverage of the election alone would have been unimaginably different.

The question is why is it that everyone seems to be fine with America evolving into a massive lie machine? Most Americans do not realize it, for sure, but lots of people have noticed the collapse of honesty and integrity. Trump labeling the media “fake news” did not set off alarms. It became a joke and then was internalized. Sensible people know that if it is in the media, it is most likely false. The truth may remain hidden, but at least we know what option that is not the truth.

Perhaps it is self-correcting. In the last election, the Harris campaign spent a billion dollars telling one lie after another. The media added untold billions to the effort with their own gaslighting in her favor. The government and corporations chipped in billions of their own to the cause. It was the most expensive lie machine ever built and yet it failed to fool enough people to make a difference. Perhaps there is a limit to lying and we are reaching that limit.

That raises another question. If the people running the media, to use just one example, reach the point where they see a negative return on lying, how can they change course and stop lying? How do people get used to trusting the media after having been conditioned to not trust them? It may be that once a society heads down the road of democracy is ends up as a low-trust society and then dies. The Greeks never could shake their habit of lying to themselves.

This may be why people were always so terrified of democracy. They understood that as soon as you open everything up for debate, you open the door to the worst aspects of the human condition. That sets off a process from which there is no turning back until it is a war of all against all. Maybe that is the end for the great experiment in self-government we call America. In the end, we are all standing around telling whoppers to each other as the roof falls in on us.


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Hi-ya!
Hi-ya!
20 days ago

Americans are liars and love lies. I talked to a shit lib I went to high school with and she was shell shocked from the election. Her main problem was mean things trump said like executing Cheney by firing squad. I looked up the quote, read it to her, and she admitted what she had been told was a lie. He didn’t say Cheney should be executed by firing squad. Instead of being angry that she was lied to, she went on to other things he has supportively said . The dog returns to her vomit, rhe sow returns to… Read more »

seesaw margery daw
seesaw margery daw
21 days ago

It’s one thing to be lied to and ripped off by your own kind but see below, re Kipling: The Stranger within my gate, He may be true or kind, But he does not talk my talk— I cannot feel his mind. I see the face and the eyes and the mouth, But not the soul behind. The men of my own stock They may do ill or well, But they tell the lies I am wonted to, They are used to the lies I tell. And we do not need interpreters When we go to buy and sell. The… Read more »

Hi-ya!
Hi-ya!
Reply to  seesaw margery daw
20 days ago

Best case made for white nationalism yet…

Vizzini
Member
21 days ago

I recall a survey of parents, oh, must have been about 20 years back or so.

They were asked if they would prefer that their children were caught cheating on a test, or smoking.

The parents overwhelmingly preferred cheating to smoking.

I knew right then we were in big trouble.

Bilejones
Member
21 days ago

Every Yom Kippur: All vows, and prohibitions, and oaths, and consecrations, and konamei and kinusei and synonymous terms,[5] that we may vow, or swear, or consecrate, or prohibit upon ourselves, •from the previous Day of Atonement until this Day of Atonement and …• ♦from this Day of Atonement until the [next] Day of Atonement that will come for our benefit.♦ Regarding all of them, we repudiate them. All of them are undone, abandoned, cancelled, null and void, not in force, and not in effect. Our vows are no longer vows, and our prohibitions are no longer prohibitions, and our oaths… Read more »

Gespenst
Gespenst
21 days ago

Remember this:
“It takes two to lie: one to lie and the other to believe it.”

Nothing except inertia on the part of believers keeps the lie system going. If the world is full of suckers, the world will be full of people who exploit them.

RandyRandian
RandyRandian
21 days ago

In Ancient Greece, elections are the mark of oligarchy. What we have, to them, was an oligarchy. A democracy, by contrast, such as Athens used sortition to rotate office holders. They even had a machine, a kleroterion, which randomly assigned office holders and jurors.

So if you’re going to attack “our democracy”, just bear in mind we don’t have one. We clearly have an oligarchy.

Jeffrey Zoar
Jeffrey Zoar
Reply to  RandyRandian
21 days ago

It’s not “our democracy,” it’s “OUR democracy”

Mow Knowname
Mow Knowname
Reply to  Jeffrey Zoar
21 days ago

“Our SACRED Democracy (TM)”
-Brought to you by Carl’s Jr.

Bilejones
Member
Reply to  RandyRandian
21 days ago

When the Oligarchs say “our democracy” they are referring to the democracy they own.

TomA
TomA
21 days ago

By now, most Americans are aware that the FBI is seriously corrupt, including all of its senior management. And DoJ is not far behind. Worse still, the power politicians in the GOP are determined to keep it that way at all costs. They couldn’t care less about our debt disaster, illegal alien invasion, or endless foreign wars; but will pull out all the stops to keep the Deep State in control. How bad does it have to get before there is a tangible push-back? This is why collapse is the cure. When things get bad enough, the antibodies will get… Read more »

Mr. House
Mr. House
Reply to  TomA
21 days ago

Deflation is what you’re talking about TomA 😉

trackback
20 days ago

[…] ZMan says the quiet part out loud. […]

My Comment
My Comment
20 days ago

The only reason that lying didn’t work for Harris is that the powers that be decided not to steal the election from Trump like they did in 2020.

The media is mistrusted
due to their pathological lying but they still serve a purpose. The media tells the managerial class what they need to think and say and who and what they need to censor. Maybe the collapse in ratings will outweigh for the rulers the propaganda function. Maybe not.

Ben the Layabout
Ben the Layabout
20 days ago

Here are a couple literary references to fibbin’. First, the mandatory Nietzsche quote in case he’s not been cited yet today (dibs!): “I am affected, not because you have deceived me, but because I can no longer believe in you.” (Beyond Good and Evil, aphorism 183). Note the masterful ambiguity: It’s unclear whether someone actually deceived him, nor why he no longer believes, whether from having discovered he was lied to, or perhaps simply because he’s lost faith. “[Islam’s Koran is an] unintelligible book which contradicts common sense in every page…” – from Voltaire’s introduction to his play Mahamot. I… Read more »

Whiskey
Whiskey
20 days ago

There is a limit to lies, just as there is a limit to truth. The true path to power is force, patronage, organization, and delivering on all. No amount of lies by Baghdad Bob could keep the American tanks at bay. No amount of lies can stop a Russian missile. They may or may not have launched an ICBM at a Ukranian town, or it may have been a shorter range missile. Either way the outgoing Admin of Obama is trying to start WWIII out of spite. They truly believe in the power of their lies. Pol Pot certainly did,… Read more »

Ben the Layabout
Ben the Layabout
21 days ago

Plato’s dialogues are full of examples of various types of rhetoric and sophistry, that is to say various skills of how to lie.

Here’s a topical amusing example of a whopper in this case from the of green energy loons. The claim is true enough, that is that alternative energy is so cheap they almost have to give it away, of course there’s a very big asterisk to that claim which is basically that this is only true in cases of peak power generation far exceeding demand.

https://jasondeegan.com/europes-extensive-use-of-renewable-energy-leads-to-an-unexpected-challenge-electricity-becoming-excessively-cheap/

Vegetius
Vegetius
21 days ago

Martin Luther had something to say about the liars and their lies, and it is far more relevant to the current situation than whatever someone supposedly said someone supposely said about the ancient Greeks, whoever they were.

Vizzini
Member
21 days ago

“The miracle weight loss drug Ozempic may cause your heart to explode”

TL;DR: The linked paper documents zero exploding hearts.

Eloi
Eloi
Reply to  Vizzini
21 days ago

This is called “hyperbole.”

Vizzini
Member
Reply to  Eloi
21 days ago

No way! .. erm, I mean, inconceivable!

Bartleby the Scrivner
Bartleby the Scrivner
Reply to  Vizzini
20 days ago

You keep using that word.

I don’t think it means what you think it means.

Zulu Juliet
Zulu Juliet
21 days ago

I blame the Clintons for normalizing lying. For them a lie was infinitely mutable and could be changed as needed. The truth is immutable so they avoided it in all circumstances.

It is not a new feature. McArthur said of FDR: “The man who would never tell the truth when a lie could serve him just as well.” FDR won three presidential elections. There ya go.

Jeffrey Zoar
Jeffrey Zoar
Reply to  Zulu Juliet
21 days ago

The Clintons couldn’t have pulled it off without the support of a media complex that was eager to condone such behavior, and already thoroughly so corrupted before the Clintons came along

Neoliberal Feudalism
21 days ago

“This fanciful tale gets across the point that lying was highly immoral in Persian society.” This part is silly. See Herodotus’s account of Darius the Great’s ascension to power. Darius assassinated Cyrus’s rightful successor, Bardiya, then falsely claimed that he had actually assassinated a Bardiya IMPOSTER, and that the imposter had actually killed the real Bardiya – lol. There’s a great account of this story in Gore Vidal’s novel “Creation” (1981). “The details regarding Darius’s rise to power is generally acknowledged as forgery and was in reality used as a concealment of his overthrow and murder of Cyrus’s rightful successor,… Read more »

Bilejones
Member
Reply to  Neoliberal Feudalism
21 days ago

” There’s a great account of this story in Gore Vidal’s novel “Creation” (1981).”
And Gore Vidal would never lie to you…

Xman
Xman
21 days ago

Lying is standard policy in all collapsing empires. Once there is a system in place that dispenses honors, money, and power (and conversely dispenses death, imprisonment and property confiscation to enemies) people are incentivized to go along with it no matter how fucked up it is until it completely collapses, and they lie to protect their own interests. Anyone remember Baghdad Bob? Saddam had total control over Iraq for 25 years and killed scores of his enemies. It made perfect sense to lie right up until the moment the U.S. Marines entered the building. Guys who tell the truth get… Read more »

Zulu Juliet
Zulu Juliet
Reply to  Xman
21 days ago

Great comment. Thumbs up.

Puszczyk
Puszczyk
Reply to  Xman
20 days ago

“Even in systems that are not brutal or totalitarian, there is always an incentive to go along with the lies. The Austro-Hungarian, German, Russian and Ottoman empires all collapsed in 1918. Nobody — NOBODY — on the collected general staffs of those empires thought that going to war only four years prior was a bad idea. They were all military academy men, career officers, men of status, royalty. Among such people go-along-to-get-along is the rule.” Of the presented examples, continuous lying proved to be most disastrous for Russia and Germany. The former paid with Bolshevism, after disgracefully burning in riots… Read more »

Steve
Steve
21 days ago

@Zman said, “…the market will do the policing.

It turns out that this was a lie. For example, the drug makers lie about all sorts of things and never face any consequences.”

Sure, but are you suggesting the FDA approvals process is any more a free market than that “Lea” Thompson swimmer dude is a chick?

Vizzini
Member
Reply to  Steve
21 days ago

Not to mention our crooked Copyright and Patent system.

Tars Tarkas
Member
21 days ago

“America is on the verge of becoming a nation of liars, just as Cyrus described the Greeks.” On the verge? We passed the verge a long time ago. I ran into a great example of the lying that goes on in the US just yesterday. I stopped at BK to pick up some slop and the price went up and the burger is now 1/2 the size than it was a year ago. The fries are even worse, maybe 1/3 of the size. Nothing on the menu changed other than the price. Shrinkflation is an example of the rampant lying… Read more »

Jeffrey Zoar
Jeffrey Zoar
Reply to  Tars Tarkas
21 days ago

I expect to spend the rest of my life observing 3rd world characteristics bumping up against the presence of too many white people for the 3rd world to win completely. I already observe this most every day. Or else I will move to an actual 3rd world country, that’s a possibility too.

3g4me
3g4me
Reply to  Jeffrey Zoar
21 days ago

No need to move there when they’ve all come here. And as far as ‘too many White people” – where is that, pray tell? There are Nigerians in Iceland, and black grifters in Alaska.

Jeffrey Zoar
Jeffrey Zoar
Reply to  3g4me
21 days ago

Of course there can be no such thing as too many white people. I meant too many white people for AINO to become Nigeria.

Steve
Steve
Reply to  Tars Tarkas
21 days ago

“What we are on the verge of is becoming a 3rd world nation.”

On the verge? 😉

Calling the “sandwich” a Whopper is no different than the whopper of calling a dude a chick. The only distinction I know of is that you can be fired, unbanked, and possibly even incarcerated for pointing out one of those two.

3g4me
3g4me
Reply to  Tars Tarkas
21 days ago

As you said, not on the verge – we are there. Politicians are all liars. Lawyers. The Illinois supreme court (5 women, one black man, one White man) just declared Jussie Smollett had his ‘rights’ violated. The Daily Mail is warning about a particular men’s haircut style, when the issue is alien barbers who don’t sterilize their equipment. And height is not a product of genetics and protein intake, but socioeconomic status. And the new head of Jaguar is a flaming merkin homosexual who has ‘rebranded’ and expects to lose 85% of existing customers. I read Zman’s travelogues about the… Read more »

Hemid
Hemid
Reply to  Tars Tarkas
21 days ago

Business is “asymmetry,” “advantage,” etc.—all the libertarian words for lies, fraud, scams and ripoffs. Without you getting screwed out of the price of a burger—or without them firing all the white kids and replacing them with Aztec sex criminals, or without them feeding you a salad dressed in migrant worker diarrhea, or whatever—Burger King doesn’t *work*. Maybe millions like you, once bitten, have learned not to go there for lunch anymore. Well, Burger King made a billion dollars teaching you all that lesson, and there are three hundred million more Americans who’ve yet to learn it, so the King is… Read more »

Marko
Marko
21 days ago

America is not Khartoum. Yet. I’ve traveled the world a bit and the lying is worse elsewhere, in both the cloud and dirt realms. What keeps the West relatively honest is a sense of fairness, plus legal recourse. In most other places, it’s a jungle, and you have little value beyond a human cash machine. When was the last time you bartered for anything in, say, Little Rock? Most of the world is lying, and its universal language is bartering. I’m mainly talking about Western dirt people, but they don’t lie like an Arab or a Chinaman dirt person lies.… Read more »

Zulu Juliet
Zulu Juliet
Reply to  Marko
21 days ago

There is much to what you say. I worked with a very clever Sudanese fellow (they do exist) and it was a point of honor with him to rip people off, or screw them over. He was baffled that we thought it was wrong.

Marko
Marko
Reply to  Zulu Juliet
21 days ago

Yeah I immediately know how jaded a society is by walking into one of their stores. If the store/shop/stand is organized well, and the prices are clearly posted, and the staff is genuinely helpful (NOT “Good price for you my friend!” kind of helpful) I know that lying is not much of a thing there. I have been driven by plenty of Indian Uber drivers in the USA. Not one of them have tried to rip me off. I’d say at least 33% of Uber drivers in India have blatantly ripped me off, or tried. The only difference is that… Read more »

Dutchboy
Dutchboy
Reply to  Zulu Juliet
20 days ago

Luigi Barzini noted that, in Italy, a man who always tells the truth is thought to do so because he is not clever enough to tell a convincing lie.

Ben the Layabout
Ben the Layabout
Reply to  Marko
20 days ago

Marko is illustrating a crucial fact: Differing cultures have differing values (morals, laws, etc.) What Westerners think is being “ripped off” may be business as usual to the other party. Please note that I’m not trying to make any judgments of right or wrong here. The main point is that what’s “right” or “wrong” can vary dramatically by country/culture. As a Westerner I appreciate, indeed take for granted that the marked price of an item is what I’ll pay (add in the tax, etc.) But if you expect the same procedure at Omar’s Rug Emporium especially in Omar’s home country,… Read more »

Dr. Mabuse
Reply to  Ben the Layabout
20 days ago

I lived in India for 3 years, and I absolutely hated having to bargain for things. But you have to do it, especially for large items. As a Westerner, I had much more money than the average Indian, and I could easily afford the asking price for that brass pot or embroidered shawl. Why should I stress myself out to knock off $2 on the price of it? I should be generous and not try to do down people less fortunate than I. But that is a purely Western way of thinking. In India, *not* bargaining causes problems that wouldn’t… Read more »

Hokkoda
Member
21 days ago

People are always surprised when I tell them that my default setting in nearly all situations is to assume the other person is lying to me. I used to be a teacher for about 10 years, and while I have always had good radar for liars, teaching elevated my skills to Expert level. The kids lied, the parents lied, the administrators lied. And you get REALLY good at spotting the lie. So good that I could make strategic decisions based on the lie that would later prove to have been good choices. IOW, once you know what the lie is,… Read more »

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  Hokkoda
21 days ago

It sometimes takes “two”. I once had a graduate student working for me who was applying for full-time work in the tech field. The field was hot in those days and in a short time he had an interview and accepted to a CA company upon graduation in a few weeks. So far so good. However, it seems he continued to apply for positions and shortly decided that he had sold himself short and “deserved” more money. So he calls his “new” employer and tells them he’s not coming on such and such a date unless he gets so much… Read more »

Steve
Steve
Reply to  Compsci
21 days ago

You can’t cheat an honest man.

They evidently knew they were low-balling. But why not? If someone offers you something for less than you are willing to pay, take it. But the honest man also knows the implications of water seeking its own level.

A scoundrel will insist on the terms of the contract, rather than seeking an amicable resolution.

RandyRandian
RandyRandian
Reply to  Steve
20 days ago

I never understood that. Why can’t you ch at an honest man?

Dutchboy
Dutchboy
Reply to  RandyRandian
20 days ago

An honest man is not greedy and knows when something is too good to be true.

Hokkoda
Member
Reply to  Compsci
21 days ago

I forgot to mention that I bumped the pay band 3% because he asked for a bit higher salary than the previous guy wanted. As a counter to that example one of my other employees called to say he had been offered a job that pays about $35K more than I pay him. He wanted to know if I could come up. I was nice about it, but I won’t have any trouble replacing him and if he can get a $35K raise he should take it. The issue is that we are a GREAT company and have won a… Read more »

Manager
Manager
Reply to  Hokkoda
21 days ago

Bosses giving glowing reviews to employees wanting a transfer? Unloading dead wood on some other department. Not many repercussions, although those bosses do get found out.
I also got stuck with one, a former Marine that my vet boss said “tarnished the green.” He mustered out abruptly, lying about sick leave, to a government job by using a veteran hiring preference and became a taxpayer burden. How many others like that take up space and resources around the country?

Hokkoda
Member
Reply to  Manager
21 days ago

One of the biggest fraud scams in America is the “disabled veteran” scam. They get 10-20-30-100% disability payments for life. Many earned it – true line of duty injuries. But a lot of them will guiltily tell you that 20% disability for a shoulder injury they got playing MWR rec. softball. I had a retired USAF MSgt tell me he could’ve gotten me 30% for my knee surgery (skiing) and skin cancer if I had come to him before getting out. I just told him it never once crossed my mind to defraud the government. He didn’t know what to… Read more »

rasqball
rasqball
Reply to  Hokkoda
21 days ago

Grifters…!

pyrrhus
pyrrhus
Reply to  Hokkoda
21 days ago

In my experience teaching a specialized subject, chess, first graders rarely lie, though they may exaggerate…But even the older kids, who have learned how to lie, are very bad at lying, you can see their unease in their face and posture…On cross examination, they fold….It’s largely the same with politicians, but they have learned how to bluff a sizable part of the population with their demeanor…But the naivete of the American population seems to be slowly disappearing in the face of ugly reality…That’s the source of Trump’s victory…he lies less and doesn’t come across as hating Americans…

Hokkoda
Member
Reply to  pyrrhus
21 days ago

Kids are just uncomplicated adults. I used to teach physics, and kids lies are like a simplified physics problem where you ignore things like air resistance and friction. They’re boiled down to the basics. As they get older, they add complexity and sophistication. I’ve taught every age from pre-K through college. Plus dealing with their parents. The best way to think of it is I had thousands of people in a continuum from age 4 to 40. Every evolution of lying can be pinpointed in that continuum. Most little kids lie to protect themselves. Teenagers lie to deceive and test… Read more »

rasqball
rasqball
Reply to  Hokkoda
21 days ago

Most little kids lie to protect themselves. Teenagers lie to deceive and test boundaries. Most adults lie for personal gain.

Well stated. I would add that females are more prone to engage in “practice lying” (i.e., “no discernable objective” to the dishonesty) than are males.

Puszczyk
Puszczyk
Reply to  Hokkoda
20 days ago

This is one reason why the most ardent opponents of change can often be found among the common folk. Beautiful People may be the most pathological of liars, but they tend to be quite adaptive and savy as well. On the other hand, the good old boys from the pleb tend to become hopelessly corrupted into the Lie through servilism and conservatism, their lack of a silver tongue (and sophisticated double-think) puts them in a position of complete dependency. Only a radical change of hierarchy allows to scapegoat the old sins and provide catharsis/renewal. Democracy not only destroys the honesty,… Read more »

Jeffrey Zoar
Jeffrey Zoar
21 days ago

Considering the success and wealth of the GAE, I’d say the onus is on us to demonstrate why truth is better than lies. It would appear that all we have going for us on that front are admonitions from religious and philosophical books that truth is somehow preferable, but in the physical world such assertions seem questionable. Indeed, any value that truth possesses depends on the existence of a spiritual world and an afterlife where perfidy is punished. Otherwise, lamentations about the dishonest nature of the world are just sour grapes by people who are, for whatever reason, unwilling to… Read more »

Hemid
Hemid
Reply to  Jeffrey Zoar
21 days ago

“If you’re so smart, why aren’t you evil?”

Maybe the only good that’s come with the ascension of Vance and Vivek and the boys is that many on the right who formerly felt constrained by Whiteness™ have been liberated to let their jeet flag fly.

I haven’t been cynical enough.

Tarl Cabot
Tarl Cabot
21 days ago

Democracy is ultimately about morality. Morality is subjective, and truth is always subordinate to any given moral perspective, although the latter invariably claims to be identical with the former.

All governments promote a moral vision, but democracy is the only one that pretends it doesn’t.

Captain Willard
Captain Willard
21 days ago

At the risk of being a broken record here, I will just observe that when the Elites decided to run this system with no feedback, Truth became a commodity with minimal value. Americans understood “BS”: it’s the rhetorical lubricant required to advance political agendas. But Americans always hated “Lies”: intentional deception. If you’re going to run the system with no feedback, you need to get comfortable with Lies.

David Wright
Member
21 days ago

We should create a commission on lying and how to reduce it. I nominate Hillary as director. Her NASA, Marine Corps and mountain climbing experience will be a bonus.

ray
ray
21 days ago

In the ‘judgment phase’ of human history described in the Book of Revelation, the principal standard for evaluation of individuals is love of truth, or rejection of truth. The point is made multiple times in that book, so nobody has any excuse for effing up. God places a very high value on probity, and Scripture personifies Truth in the individual Christ, who is both the source and the endpoint of all honesty. We can extrapolate from there that truth likewise is crucial to the effective functioning of human groups, including societies. Lying, including to oneself, is corrosive and anti-productive. 1950s… Read more »

OrangeFrog
OrangeFrog
Reply to  ray
21 days ago

Amen, Ray.

You’ve been dropping some grand comments today. Quite frankly, recognition and repentance of sin on the part of The Managers would be most beneficial – especially for their souls. But I doubt that will happen.

In all my life, I can honestly say that nothing encourages self-reflection and self-correction like serious Christianity (not, of course, the co-opted Christianity that floats about in the mainstream).

God bless you and yours.

Manager
Manager
Reply to  OrangeFrog
21 days ago

Agreed on Managers repenting!
Daily recognition and prayer 🙏 help.

Pip McGuigin
Member
Reply to  ray
21 days ago

What a well thought out reply. Congratulations.

RealityRules
RealityRules
21 days ago

The Sacklers should face a public trial and then crucified and gradually disemboweled. The grand strategist Brezhinski’s (sp?) daughter is emblematic of the type of lying that is a charade and farce. That is, she is a part of a dynastic family in the empire. She should recuse herself of being a, “journalist.” To call her, an imperial promoter with a vested familial interest in the empire, a journalist and not a propagandist is yet another form of lying that is very common. In an honest society she would recuse herself or be harshly rebuked and removed from her position.… Read more »

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  RealityRules
21 days ago

“The Sacklers should face a public trial and then crucified and gradually disemboweled.” You bring up an interesting thought here. The aspect of punishment as in atonement vs punishment as in future prevention/deterrent of such activity. For example, one might think that such punishment as you describe will deter others from such behavior, but will it? Two aspects need to be considered: punishment and probability of detection or getting caught. We saw this in late 19th century Britain where there were some 90+ laws on the books that prescribed capital punishment for crimes as petty as “pickpocketing”. Yet crime rose… Read more »

Jeffrey Zoar
Jeffrey Zoar
Reply to  Compsci
21 days ago

I can tell you for a fact that there are some people living today who would not be, were it not for my fear of prison

RealityRules
RealityRules
Reply to  Compsci
21 days ago

In the Sackler, Mayorkas … … (long long long list) … … case, it is atonement and deterrent. It is a signal that a new regime has arrived. It is a statement that the treasons this person committed are intolerable and do not go unpunished to suit the crime. The Sacklers willfully addicted White men, those who served the nation in its foreign wars, to opioids. That is evil. Mayorkas is willfully dispossessing a nation of its homeland and fostering an invasion and colonial settlement. That is evil. They and all who abet them must face a brutal punishment and… Read more »

Puszczyk
Puszczyk
Reply to  RealityRules
20 days ago

I believe there is a point to be made on how the culture of egalitarianism corrupts the elite so deeply they become both degenerate and resentful. Both privileges and duties become formally democratized which forces the elite into an endless spiral of deception to maintain the natural order and pay the lip service at the same time. As a result we get absurdities with anti-homeless, rainbow-painted boulders, refusal to deal with social refuse by unleashing them onto the peasants, glorification of primitive (noble) savagery while at the same time elite dreams grow even more fanciful (the Great Reset) and escapist.… Read more »

Jack Boniface
Jack Boniface
Member
21 days ago

OBrien made his mark with books on WWII. A completely different war: no nukes except at the end, for starters. And how anyone could think a modern war could be won with only a handful of planes is amazing in its ignorance.

Alan Schmidt
21 days ago

A lot of it has to do with obviously false “noble lies” necessary for the regime to stay afloat. You can only mouth clearly false platitudes so long before you are conditioned to play fast and loose with facts.

Carl B.
Carl B.
Reply to  Alan Schmidt
21 days ago

Re: “All Men Are Created Equal”.

ray
ray
Reply to  Carl B.
21 days ago

Yep, that’s the foundational whopper right there. Jacobin ‘egalite’.

Truth is, nobody is equal to anybody else, neither on earth nor in heaven. Oh wait, that offends widdle beebee?
Tough.

Equality must be limited to mathematics or it inevitably develops into fabrications (ideologies) in which the inferior is equated with the superior. This is the basis of political correctness and feminism.

Ben the Layabout
Ben the Layabout
Reply to  ray
20 days ago

“Men are not equal. Neither shall they become so.”
– Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra.

Dutchboy
Dutchboy
Reply to  Alan Schmidt
21 days ago

The “noble lie” seems to be the favorite lie of this era. Frequently delivered by “experts” (e.g., Fauci), it is intended to prevent the rubes from making the mistake of judging matters for themselves and coming to the wrong conclusions. No absurdity is beyond the pale when it comes to the noble lie and the liars can be sure of backup from the media if the rubes suspect they are being played. The fact that a financial motive lies behind many of these lies does tarnish the noble part a bit but all is fair in the war against rubedom.

Citizen of a Silly Country
Citizen of a Silly Country
21 days ago

Democracy is just a show for rubes. Do the real rulers lie to each other behind the scenes? I doubt it. There are consequences to lying to your boss.

The Wild Geese Howard
The Wild Geese Howard
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
21 days ago

It’s all pro-wrestling at every level of government.

Citizen of a Silly Country
Citizen of a Silly Country
Reply to  The Wild Geese Howard
21 days ago

Exactly, but the people putting on the show need to be honest with each other. If you promise a donation, you have to pay it. If you promise to smear someone, you have to smear that person. If you promise to reward a govt official or politician after they leave govt, you have to reward them.

When things matter, the honor code gets a lot stricter.

Jeffrey Zoar
Jeffrey Zoar
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
21 days ago

There are at least two kinds of honesty: There’s cash register honesty, and then there’s internal/spiritual honesty, in which one is honest with oneself, and with one’s fellows about one’s true motivations. You can definitely have the former without the latter.

The Wild Geese Howard
The Wild Geese Howard
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
21 days ago

Instead of the Overton Window, we should have, “the Overton Pro Wrestling Ring,” where the sides move in and out as needed to suit the Uniparty’s purpose du jour.

Jack Dobson
Jack Dobson
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
21 days ago

It would seem to depend on how expansive “real rulers” is defined. To give a recent example, the managers told the Cloud People to invest heavily in Ukraine because the United States would prevail there. Blackrock and Co. snapped up a lot of real estate and other assets that now are in jeopardy. Are the managers some of the “real rulers?” I kind of think not, but how they get away with lying to those who are is hard to explain.

Citizen of a Silly Country
Citizen of a Silly Country
Reply to  Jack Dobson
21 days ago

There’s a lying and just being wrong. If you actually believed that we could win the Ukraine war, it would be a huge investment opportunity.

Jack Dobson
Jack Dobson
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
21 days ago

My point/question is whether there is an actual hierarchical distinction between those who truly believed it, as the Clouds apparently did, and the persons who lied and led them to believe it, the Managers. No question it was on paper a tremendous investment opportunity. The Clouds indeed were wrong but it seemingly was based on false information provided to them since the intelligence and military apparat almost certainly knew how the Ukraine war would shake out. So it remains unclear, at least to me, as to whether the Managers are part of the Real Rulers. That they could lie with… Read more »

Dutchboy
Dutchboy
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
21 days ago

It’s hard for me to believe that any informed person believed the war was winnable by Ukraine. Little old me, with only a regular guy’s access to information and a bit of logic sized up the war as a lost cause as soon as it began (Russia being much larger and stronger than Ukraine and the Russians being a tough bunch). I think these commercial interests figured they would come out ahead no matter who won.

Jack Dobson
Jack Dobson
Reply to  Dutchboy
21 days ago

There may have been hedges and offsets with MIC investments, but it is hard to see how sinking billions of dollars into land not available to someone would be profitable. What you wrote is indeed possible, but many Clouds literally outsource every bit of information provided to them so they do in effect live in a bubble. It normally works for them but then something like this happens.

Jeffrey Zoar
Jeffrey Zoar
Reply to  Dutchboy
21 days ago

I believe they convinced themselves that the sanctions would topple Putin. I don’t think they ever expected to have to fight a long term ground war in Ukraine.

Barnard
Barnard
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
21 days ago

I am certain they do lie to each other all the time. There didn’t appear to be consequences for anything in the Biden Administration. Who was ever fired for anything? Maybe the underlings don’t lie to people way up the chain, but the political appointees lie to each other all the time.

Hemid
Hemid
Reply to  Barnard
21 days ago

My wife had Tucker on yesterday and I overheard a bit where he was talking to Greenwald about how instantly and profoundly Mike Johnson had changed his positions and personality after he got a talking-to from “intelligence.” They were stuck on the idea that he was traditionally compromised, blackmailed or whatever. And Johnson’s an obvious target for it, some kind of gay sex creep who pretends he isn’t. Contradicting their thesis, I think, Tucker noted that behind the scenes Johnson had started telling him things that made no sense and were totally crazy and “incoherent,” with a True Believer glaze… Read more »

Jeffrey Zoar
Jeffrey Zoar
Reply to  Hemid
21 days ago

It’s stories like this that instantly make me think of space aliens

Mycale
Mycale
Reply to  Citizen of a Silly Country
21 days ago

I think you need to account for the fact that women are now heavily involved in the policymaking and bureaucratic operations these days. It’s a major change that is not discussed because, well, we all know why it is not. In the past, the bureaucracy was run by serious men who understand the game and its consequences. Now, not so much. I just heard a clip of some policy bimbo snarking about Putin’s discussion of nuclear protocol and she was giggling about how it is irrelevant, he is just afraid and insecure and blustering. Compare this to the seriousness with… Read more »

ray
ray
Reply to  Mycale
21 days ago

This.

Deception is a fundamental feature of the human female. Shoe-horning Deception into positions of power that require honesty to function is self-defeating.

Mr. Generic
Mr. Generic
Reply to  Mycale
21 days ago

This is the correct answer, regardless of topic. It is tedious and pointless to discuss politics, managerialism, communism, democracy, or anything else as long as women remain empowered.

Speaking of honesty, the greatest lie ever believed is not just that women are as competent as men, but that they are even competent in any objective sense.

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  Mr. Generic
21 days ago

Reminds me of several SciFi novels where in alien societies encountered, the female is “non-sentient” and only the male of the species is what we’d call a thinking, rational animal. Highly amusing. I’m surprised these authors have not been black balled by feminists. Perhaps SciFi is a male only thing? Or perhaps I’ve only read authors from the 50’s and 60’s. 😉

Zaphod
Zaphod
Reply to  Compsci
20 days ago

Ah yes… that renowned feminist author Larry Niven springs to mind.

Jack Dobson
Jack Dobson
Reply to  Mycale
21 days ago

Very bright take. While elections do not matter really as far as the trajectory of things, the recent one appeared to be a fairly straight forward reassertion of masculine dominance. This potentially suicidal reaction of nuclear chicken is indeed what should be respected from a matriarchy, particularly a wounded one.

usNthem
usNthem
21 days ago

It seems to me that the biggest issue re all the lying is the lack of consequences, or at least serious ones. If I jump off a 20 story building or drive into a tree at a100 miles an hour, there will be terminal consequences. Rarely, if ever for the lying liars. Further, large swaths of the populace are pathetically gullible and lap the slop up. Maybe one of these days, years, decades or centuries, it’ll change…

Barnard
Barnard
Reply to  usNthem
21 days ago

Good point. A large chunk of the public has already given up on believing anything out of the regime. Regime media seems to soldier on through carrier fees and advertising from drug companies.
As the generation that grew up believing everything the TV told them dies off something has to give here. More and more though people just seem to be willing to shrug and accept we have turned into a low trust society.

The Wild Geese Howard
The Wild Geese Howard
Reply to  Barnard
21 days ago

I’d bet there are also some MSM support dollars squirreled away in the CIA black budgets.

Barnard
Barnard
Reply to  The Wild Geese Howard
21 days ago

Something is going on. Popular shows on Thursday night used pull down over 20 million viewers, now the top rated shows are barely getting 6 million. NBC is still running multiple Law & Order series as political propaganda that are getting lower ratings than moderately successful YouTubers. Eventually someone has to pull the plug on this, it is just a question of what the trigger will be.

Jeffrey Zoar
Jeffrey Zoar
Reply to  The Wild Geese Howard
21 days ago

There doesn’t have to be direct CIA support. Look at who is advertising, and what they are advertising, and where their money is coming from, and you’ll see it. A lot of it is just fedguv moneyprinter loldollars, washed through various “companies” into the msm through ad buys. For instance, defense contractor advertising. Big pharma ads that aren’t advertising any products. Utility company ads. Etc. Then you’ve got a lot of ad space taken up by “pass it on” and “he gets us.” Where does that money come from?

Barnard
Barnard
Reply to  Jeffrey Zoar
21 days ago

The “He Gets Us” campaign was mostly funded by the Hobby Lobby guy. It appears to be his punishment for stealing antiquities from the Middle East and not having to go to jail for it.

Jack Dobson
Jack Dobson
Reply to  The Wild Geese Howard
21 days ago

Absolutely. Exhibit A is the revolving door between CNN and “retired” intelligence officers. We probably would be astonished by the raw amounts of public funds put into these propaganda outlets.

Diversity Heretic
Member
21 days ago

I think in the case of the Greeks, the lying stopped when the Macedonians took over. I’m not sure what the 21st Century equivalent of the Macedonians will be for the Global American Empire.

Zfan
Zfan
Reply to  Diversity Heretic
21 days ago

I tend toward analogies, so I think of the barbarians that dwell to our north that speak a version of our language and I get Canadians. I guess that is analogy failure– I don’t see a Phillip or Alexander arriving from the Great White North.

Diversity Heretic
Member
Reply to  Zfan
21 days ago

Good point, but look to the south–perhaps there’s a Pinochet equivalent, even a home-grown one. Coups have not been common in Englishèspeaking countries, but they’ve been a feature of South American political life.

Compsci
Compsci
Reply to  Diversity Heretic
21 days ago

A coup would seem easier when you have a completely centralized government and civilian police as opposed to a more decentralized one with somewhat independent States or Provences.

Zfan
Zfan
Reply to  Diversity Heretic
21 days ago

There are many admirable features of Latin culture. I never imagined that military coups were something worthy of “cultural appropriation”, but this old dog can learn to appreciate a new trick.

Augusto Pinochet reborn, or Nayib Bukele, on a white horse crossing the Rio Grande would be a God send.

Greg Nikolic
21 days ago

The strong tell the truth, the weak, like children and women, lie.

— Greg (my blog: http://www.dark.sport.blog)