I Have My Doubts

I’ve rewritten this post a few times now, mostly because I keep thinking about a rule that I think all of us should follow. That is, no enemies to the Right. The reason the Buckley thing is falling to pieces is they invested all of their time slicing pieces off of the right side of their movement. The Birchers were easy, but before long they were slicing off vital parts. The reason the so-called alt-right exists is that so much of the Right had been purged, the fringe has become a majority.

Still, there’s a lot of the alt-right that creates a fair bit of doubt in my mind.  Since the election, the media has been racing around looking for “leaders” of the alt-right to report on and interview. That’s catnip to the sort of people who like being famous more than they like being right. It also attracts people who think they can make a buck off selling people what they want to hear. That’s how the Tea Party went from grass roots movement to a bust-out. How long before someone launches a line of Pepe gear?

For instance, is Mike Cernovich a guy in it for the money or a higher purpose? I don’t spend a lot of time reading his site, or any time to be honest, but his name pops up a lot in stories about the alt-right. I see he is peddling a book called MAGA Mindset with a picture of Trump on it. Maybe it is all above board and perfectly legit, but it could be just another grift too. It’s hard to know. Would he be selling the Commie Mindset if Bernie Sanders had won the White House? I don’t know, but it is a good thing to keep in mind.

There’s a difference between selling the word and spreading the word. It’s the Bible salesman versus the missionary. The former could just as easily be selling toasters or porn. The point of the exercise is to make the sale. Their product is just a means to an end. The missionary, on the other hand, is the product. He is selling more than just his wares. He is selling himself. His identity is measured in converts. VDare begs for money so they can proselytize, not so Peter Brimelow can drive a Ferrari.

It’s not just the fringy sorts that give me pause. Ann Coulter was an enthusiastic champion of Mitt Romney. She used to talk about Chris Christie as a lion of the Right. She was a late arrival to the immigration patriotism cause. Ann Coulter is in the business of selling books. It has worked to our favor that she picked up the cause of immigration and then championed Donald Trump, but what happens if she can sell more books promoting open borders? I’m not questioning her sincerity, just making a point about motives.

I don’t want to cast aspersion on these people. I don’t know enough about Cernovich to judge his motives. Honestly, my hunch is he is just a harmless weirdo.  Ann Coulter was a skeptic of the Bush Klan going way back. She was fond of ripping into the Bush people over “compassionate conservatism” before it was popular. Ann Coulter has taken a lot of abuse and lost a few friends over her Trump support. Still, it is wise to be skeptical about people making a living selling you what you want to hear. Talk radio falls into this too.

Money is one reason for skepticism. Hidden agendas are another. Fringe movements that gain traction inevitably attract members of other fringe movements. Every fringe weirdo in America is hoping on the alt-right bus, hoping to ride it to legitimacy. During the election, Jill Stein tried to ride the Bernie Bro wave. When that failed, she went on Twitter, aping Donald Trump, by calling Hillary crooked and corrupt. She even started making noises about immigration, thus earning her the nickname  “Based Yenta.”

Richard Spencer is another good example. Watching the NPI event the other day, I kept getting the sense that Peter Brimelow was there to legitimize Spencer, not because Spencer had a big stage to offer Brimelow. Spencer invests a lot of time declaring himself the Pope of the alt-right, but my guess is hardly anyone calling themselves alt-right knows anything about him. The next time someone quotes Richard Spencer to me, it will be the first time. His white identity thing is a tiny club without out much of a future.

The point here is not to disparage these people. I think Richard Spencer is mostly harmless. I’m just using him as an example to make a point. Populism is always going to be open to a lot of oddballs looking for a home, but it is important to remember that they are the ones seeking shelter, not the ones building the shelter. The people rallying to the Trump banner or the Brexit banner or any of the populist movements of Europe are not doing so because they want a white ethno-state. They just want normal countries again.

Skepticism is a good thing. There are a lot of people pulling down their freak flag now and hoisting the Pepe banner. Most of it is harmless and well intended, but not all of it. It’s never easy to know so it is wise to maintain a healthy degree of doubt about all of them. Old soldiers like Brimelow or Sailer have earned trust over long careers, but all the new guys have a long way to go before we can really know what they are up to and assess their  motivations. Until that’s clear, I have my doubts.

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kokor hekkus
kokor hekkus
7 years ago

“The Birchers were easy.”–no, The Birchers were right, and therefore unacceptable to CIA man Buckley. Ann Coulter and Mike Cernovich write books and tweet, whereas Spencer seems to have turned into an attention whore…you need to understand the difference. You also need to understand that intelligent people change their opinions and attitude as the situation on the ground changes. Fifteen years ago, I thought immigration was harmless. Now it has become clear that it will destroy the USA….

Member
Reply to  thezman
7 years ago

As a first generation born American with an entire extended family of immigrants born in the former Yugoslavia and Greece, I grew up in an environment that makes me very open about my prejudices and calling people out by group when there is “observable reality” that backs up my opinions. As someone who who grew up psychologically with one foot in Europe, I feel very strongly that America has to maintain its foundations from its English, European and Christian ancestry (especially English and Christian). Flooding this country with Muslims or Hindus or other races that change the character of this… Read more »

Member
Reply to  TempoNick
7 years ago

I think if we pause the influx we can assimilate a lot of the Latino immigrants not unlike we did for the Irish and Italians. The more we let in the less pressure there is for them to assimilate. We also need to take on leftist identity politics and win, but that was already a given.

cicatrizatic
cicatrizatic
Reply to  Taco_Town
7 years ago

The statistics on English-speaking Latinos v. Spanish speaking Latinos is telling. I don’t have a link handy, but if I recall correctly, among Latinos who speak predominantly Spanish, they vote Democrat 80/20. Among Latinos who speak predominantly English (bi-lingual, but speak English well and in public), they vote Democrat 48/41.

Essentially, as Latinos become assimilated to the use of the English language on a daily basis, they approach political neutrality as an ethnic group.

Member
Reply to  cicatrizatic
7 years ago

I think Latin American culture is close to Southern European culture. They are both predominantly Catholic and the families are tight, not to mention that there are a lot of European immigrants to South America as well. I don’t have a problem with managed immigration from South America because they are culturally compatible once they have assimilated.

Member
7 years ago

The people rallying to the Trump banner or the Brexit banner or any of the populist movements of Europe are not doing so because they want a white ethno-state. They just want normal countries again. What is Germany without Germans? What is France without the French? What is Italy without Italians? What is the Netherlands without the Dutch? What is Russia without Russians? What is Greece without Greeks? America is historically a supermajority Anglo – European Christian nation, with significant black and Native American minorities. This can’t be America without Americans and people with Anglo and European Christian ancestry are… Read more »

Member
Reply to  thezman
7 years ago

Your own private Idaho makes sense if you’re sure that the current society will end in failure and civil war. I couldn’t say if that’s their line of thinking, just putting it out there.

Personally, I haven’t given up hope. If we can slow down Latino immigration, I think there is a good chance to assimilate enough asians and latinos into white middle America to keep a comfortable majority.

Dutch
Dutch
Reply to  Taco_Town
7 years ago

Making people WANT to be “Americans” is the essence of the issue. Those who want to live in their own culture while dwelling here, or want to be known as “hyphenated-Americans” don’t cut it. Successful immigration is about having the immigrants join a great “club” and be proud to do so. The first step is to make the club worth joining–hence “MAGA”.

Member
Reply to  Dutch
7 years ago

And I think this is the way forward. The cucks talk about amnesty and doing their own version of pandering to identity politics, but they are never going to win that battle. What the right should be doing is doubling down on middle America and inviting outsiders to truly assimilate, in every sense of the word, or at least acquiesce, and join the club.

Member
Reply to  Taco_Town
7 years ago

What Republicans really should be doing is pushing the pocketbook issues and poetic rhetoric about how they want everyone to realize the American dream. That’s what immigrants are here for — not welfare and government health care. Otherwise, they would have stayed in their homelands.

Sam J.
Sam J.
Reply to  Taco_Town
7 years ago

“…private Idaho…”

“…Walkin’ through a gate that leads you down
Down to a pool fraught with danger
It’s a pool full of strangers

Hey, you’re living in your own Private Idaho…”

Member
Reply to  thezman
7 years ago

gross… bad visual. heh

teapartydoc
Member
7 years ago

http://voxday.blogspot.com/2016/11/controlled-opposition-or-media.html Vox Day’s take on the same issue. I saw Rhodesia fall because people were more desirous of keeping a pure image via virtue signalling rather than do the right thing. I did not fully realize that this was what was happening at the time, but now that I do know it you will never see me punch to the right ever again. Any criticism will be over whether a particular tactic or stand taken advances the cause of the right, regardless of what that stand or tactic is. If giving a Nazi salute at a gathering creates a winning… Read more »

Sam J.
Sam J.
Reply to  teapartydoc
7 years ago

“…my criticism will be confined to making the point that it was unhelpful, not to facilitate the leftist media by denouncing the dude(s)…”

I agree this is the best way.

James LePore
Member
7 years ago

One of my rules of thumb is if the NY Times and the Upper Westside elite hate your guts you’re alright with me. Coulter and Limbaugh have been on the frontlines for a long time. Did they get rich? I don’t care as long as they don’t sell out, which they haven’t. I really like this guy Milo Y. He’s breaking liberal balls all over the place. Is he making money? I don’t care. It’s not my business. Being a winner is a heady thing. As Z says it attracts a lot of crazies. Some of them may have something… Read more »

jay dee
7 years ago

Not exactly on topic, but had to share…..

Charlie Rose last night. 1st segment interview with Thomas Friedman, he of the New York Times. He has a new book out. “…It might be my last…”, he says. We can only hope.

Second segment: Forgot names, but male reporter w/NYT and female reporter w/Vanity Fair. They discussed Jared Kushner.

That was Charlie’s line-up. All four people are probably no more than a 10 minute walk from one another in the MidTown hive.

I don’t think they quite get it yet.

Drake
Drake
Reply to  jay dee
7 years ago

I would be far more interested (not saying much) in what 4 random people in Wichita, Tulsa, or Des Moines have to say.

Dutch
Dutch
Reply to  jay dee
7 years ago

Charlie doesn’t want to “get it”. His little world is well established, and when it further fades into tv oblivion, he and his sort will mourn the loss of “civilized discussion”. Never mind that he sucks up to the people of like mind, and treats those who differ as criminals and idiots. It has been mentioned that his table is on the way to the Smithsonian when he retires. Great, yet another artifact that will have no meaning at all for 99.9% of the visitors who look at it, even after they read the card explaining what it is and… Read more »

Jim VA
Jim VA
Reply to  Dutch
7 years ago

Watch Charlie’s interview of Michael Crichton on global warming. It’s all you need to know about good ole Charlie.

https://youtu.be/4pcjBxNBmKA

Steveaz
Steveaz
7 years ago

It’s clear the Left is trying to “Kurt Waldheim” Donald Trump.

And to do this they NEED to promote the Alt-right as if it is equivalent in statute and malice to Hitler’s National Socialists. This, the Left’s queer interest in magnifying and propagating this salacious faction on the political stage should be enough to trigger second thoughts about the integrity of the Alt-right’s commercial advocates
-s

Drake
Drake
7 years ago

The first paragraph is a perfect description of how I ended up here instead of reading the Weekly Standard and National Review.

It sure seemed like the people they sliced off were the ones who actually intended to legislate or govern as conservatives. It slowly dawned on a lot of us that these people are full of shit and part of the government gravy train – not opposed to it.

Member
Reply to  Drake
7 years ago

I would add a second category to non-conservatives after this past election and the #nevertrump crap: empty virtue signalers. Turns out we have our share on the right too.

Deplorable Black Man
Deplorable Black Man
7 years ago

This is a great post because it reflects the reality that we are in deeply weird times. I share Z’s commitment to the ideal of “no enemies to the right” but there are, and will be, con men out there trying to take advantage of us normals. One hope is that the con men won’t be able to resist doing stuff that will reveal their true selves. That Richard Spenser “Hail Trump” moment is one of them, and I think Cernovich did a great job exposing it for what it was – a hijacking of the Trump movement to suit… Read more »

Member
Reply to  Deplorable Black Man
7 years ago

Just read Cernovich’s commentary on Richard Spenser http://www.dangerandplay.com/2016/11/21/this-is-what-controlled-opposition-looks-like/

While it certainly looks like Spenser is a false flag, I must also say that I have seen and heard things from the darker corners of the alt-right on the same level. That sort of stuff doesn’t drive me off, but it does beg the question of how to handle this sort of thing when it comes to building a winning coalition.

Member
Reply to  thezman
7 years ago

I wasn’t so much talking about race realism in isolation so much as race realism combined with not giving a F$%& and aggressive hostility. I’ve seen it out there.

LetsPlay
LetsPlay
Member
Reply to  Taco_Town
7 years ago

In the market of ideas, I don’t think you “handle” anything. You let it “out” and if it has legs it will continue. If not, it will die of it’s own lack of intellectual honesty. If it has legs, then we have something to worry about. Right now, I think the real problem is still the Left/Socialism and the threat of radical Islam.

Zeroh Tollrants
Zeroh Tollrants
Reply to  thezman
7 years ago

While not a wise move, in the defense of the younger members at the conference, they were merely in high spirits, goofing around. Spencer gave a studious 40 min presentation, and while “Hail Trump, Hail Victory” might offend some as a toast, (that’s what was happening, btw), I am fairly certain that no one has removed the infamous “Hail To The Chief,” in regards to our president, so I’m having trouble being vexed by his comment. As to the Roman salutes, what you didn’t see on the video was one of the trollier Alt Right guys was up on stage… Read more »

Zeroh Tollrants
Zeroh Tollrants
Reply to  Deplorable Black Man
7 years ago

Cernovich could not have possibly been more wrong with his weird purity spiraling assessment. He called himself a Libertarian up until earlier in the year when the term Alt Right, (coined & began by Spencer yrs ago), hit mainstream. He began tweeting that he had switched to Alt Right when he realized the reality of white genocide. He has now deleted those tweets. He also slandered Spencer as some covert FBI type infiltrator to his own movement, and continued to come unhinged on Twitter, about something he only had basic info about, from The Atlantic. For someone who has railed… Read more »

james wilson
james wilson
7 years ago

Alt-right is a term sometimes used by right wingers to distinguish themselves from housebroken conservatives, and always a term, when used by Progs , to signify right wing lunatics. By progish definition, all the Founders were alt-right, Federalist and anti-Federalist. That is a club I would join, and it would be my first.

The Bagman
The Bagman
7 years ago

One pitfall of being somewhat-well-informed in the information age is that we encounter all this complexity and can’t digest it all. Disinfo everywhere abounds, and the border between sincere and insincere is as porous as our border with Mexico. Is Richard Spencer a LARPer who has mostly reined in his extravagance and wears a suit as a gesture of self control? Is he a stuffed shirt who sometimes plays at being edgy? Is he a closeted homosexual? Did Viktor Orban ban him from Hungary because he’s a White Nationalist? Because of his wife’s shady connections? Cernovich seems sincere about at… Read more »

Member
7 years ago

At some point the Alt-Right is going to have to grow up and make the transition from commentary to power. We got lucky that the American electorate and Trump were ahead of the curve, as we still aren’t ready for prime time. Power isn’t pretty, and the sort of thing you describe goes with the territory. What is important is not the flaws of our leaders, but that they deliver and that we hold them accountable.

DFCtomm
Member
7 years ago

Well Z, as the saying goes: you might not be interested in racial politics but it’s interested in you. The balkanization of the U.S. has created cracks, and when pressure is applied to the structure then it will break along those cracks. That is simply the reality, but as long as the checks keep coming it’ll hold together. The problem is we got crazy people trying to run the economy, trade policy, and monetary policy. Don’t expect the checks to keep coming forever.

notsothoreau
notsothoreau
7 years ago

Here’s the problem: we’ve made racism such a taboo that most people haven’t read any really racist stuff. I worked for a guy that considered himself a real racist. He subscribed to the Thunderbolt, where they liked to talk about the “mud people” and what miscegenation would do. He also had George Lincoln Rockwell’s biography. I read some of it, because I like to get my information first hand. I learned enough to know that what I’ve seen from the Alt-Right is not the sort of racism I read about from those publications. (I don’t know a lot about Stormfront,… Read more »

A.T. Tapman (Merica)
A.T. Tapman (Merica)
Member
Reply to  notsothoreau
7 years ago

But if Political Correctness were to end feels would be hurt.

Member
Reply to  notsothoreau
7 years ago

Younger minorities also haven’t experienced the racism that existed in the 60s and before firsthand.

We have allowed racism to be defined by those who would use it to their political advantage for too long now.

Jim VA
Jim VA
7 years ago

The ALT-Right movement is generally the successful answer to the cuckservative movement described in the earlier post “Beyond Left and Right.” Don’t overthink it. Don’t control it. Don’t disparage it. We are not the Progressive Party which organizes its way to groupthink victory. Let complexity win. Besides, with the DNC and the media imploding, any continued distraction on their part spells continued suicide and delay at introspection. There is at least some chance that Progressivism will significantly shrink its own followers by the next election if it continues in its present tantrum. Messy coalitions aid the right; they don’t detract… Read more »

Member
Reply to  Jim VA
7 years ago

The Alt-Right isn’t a philosophy, it’s just people admitting to and speaking what everybody else is feeling.

el_baboso
Member
7 years ago

It has been pointed out by many that religion helps control freeloading in a village or tribe. Ideology serves the same role in a movement. Non-ideological movements like the tea party and alt-right will be very prone to capture by grifters.

Member
Reply to  thezman
7 years ago

There is a fine line there. I have read some of the darker corners of the Alt-Right, and a lot of what is said would blow the minds of the average Trump voters.

We also don’t want to fall into the same PC trap that the cuckservatives have fallen into.

Member
Reply to  Taco_Town
7 years ago

The problem is, like the Tea Party, anyone can claim alt-right. And the media and establishment are all to happy to pick the worst and call it representative OR as with the Tea Party, actually infiltrate and use it as a funding mechanism until it’s marginalized. Taco, you are right, obviously, there is some odd ones either lumping themselves in or being lumped in with ” the alt-right”.

Member
Reply to  Uncle_Max
7 years ago

I think the Tea Party movement gets a bad rap. The whole thing became muddled and it’s public face kind of imploded, but I think the rank and file still held true and were a driving force behind Donald Trump. The Tea Party got an undeserved reputation for being pro Traditional Conservative when in reality it was more along the lines of F*** Washington. I remember an old interview with a rank and file Tea Party supporter. A right wing journalist asked her what the Tea Party was all about, and she answered “the Republican Party is full of S***”.… Read more »

Member
Reply to  Taco_Town
7 years ago

“and a lot of what is said would blow the minds of the average Trump voters.”

Hence the effort on the part of the Government Party media to bring alt right into the mainstream. Then they’ll start trying to silence dissent by pegging anybody who opposes them as alt right. It’s not an accident that this term, alt right, is suddenly everywhere. The Tea Party is defunct, so they need a new boogey man.

el_baboso
Member
Reply to  thezman
7 years ago

Maybe the innernets will let us do some sort of crowd-sourced vetting. I always got the impression that the tea party was more into newsletters and Rotary Club meetings than blogs.

chiefIlliniCake
chiefIlliniCake
Reply to  thezman
7 years ago

Your choice of topic was quite prescient today, Z.

Donald Trump just enequivocable disavowed the Alt Right.

That’s gonna make it hard for Cernicich or Lester to peddle Trump gear.

chiefIlliniCake
chiefIlliniCake
Reply to  chiefIlliniCake
7 years ago

Spencer, not Lester. And unequivocaly.

Damn spellcheck!

Member
Reply to  thezman
7 years ago

That’s actually a good thing. It’s a bit like flag burning types. I’m not fond of what they do, especially since I and most of my family and extended family served in uniform, but the benefit of flag burning is that it’s important to know where the crazies are. Even non-ideological people get their hackles up over flag burning. Or, those Mexican Pride protests prior to the 2007 amnesty. People think it was the legislation itself that killed Bush/McCain amnesty. Nope. It was the Mexican-flag-waiving antipatriots at all those parades. They did themselves in. The more looney and unserious these… Read more »

FaCubeItches
FaCubeItches
Reply to  el_baboso
7 years ago

If one discounts the fact that in many – if not most – religions, the priests are the biggest freeloaders of all.

Member
7 years ago

At this point, what is and isn’t acceptable? I don’t really consider Milo all that pure when it comes to the cause, but at the same time he’s one of our more effective advocates. On the other end, there are race realists using language that makes even me blush, and others advocating abandoning democracy in favor of a return to ariwtocracy/monarchy. Who and what are we supposed to police?

Dutch
Dutch
Reply to  Taco_Town
7 years ago

I treat Milo as entertainment. He goes where other humorists won’t go. Which is the name of the game in all great comedy.

The best entertainment and humor addresses and exposes underlying truth. That Milo can find such a rich vein of material suggests how stunted and odd our society has become.

Member
7 years ago

As for Mike Cernovich, I haven’t been following him too closely either. I do respect that he takes more enemy fire than just about anyone and it just bounces right off of him, that he has attracted one of the larger followings on our side, and that he released and started peddling MAGA mindset long before Trump actually won. The last of those was a fairly bold move.

Dan Kurt
Dan Kurt
Member
Reply to  thezman
7 years ago

re: Cernovich

Watch some of the videos of Stefan Molyneux & Cernovich discussing various topics. It is entertaining and will give you a painless introduction to Cernovich. Here are three:
1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVVtbg0nkxg
2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShXPY5brxmM
3) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b73CJWrDFXE (Here Vox Day appears, another star of the Alt-right.)

Dan Kurt

notsothoreau
notsothoreau
Reply to  Dan Kurt
7 years ago

Actually, I watched Chernovich do a live feed outside the Democratic convention. Bernie supporters were protesting and the media couldn’t bother to cover it. It was interesting to watch, the idea of citizen journalists.

Rurik
Member
Reply to  thezman
7 years ago

Coulter, in addition for having crushes on Romney and Christie, earlier was all hot for Jim Webb, and if he had gone for the Demo nomination, she would probably have defected to follow him. Ann is a lawyer and a very combative person.Sometimes this leads her lady bits astray.

LetsPlay
LetsPlay
Member
Reply to  Rurik
7 years ago

Now that is funny! Well said. I like Ann and I like her style but I think you spoke the truth there. And Zman, you are correct, she likes to hawk her books! There are people who speak truth and need to make money to survive. I respect people who can offer some freebies of their advice along with the wisdom of their writings in book form, dead trees or digital. But those who stick exclusively to “buy me” only, well, I have to wonder about their complete sincerity. Especially when there is a war on and minds need to… Read more »

Zeroh Tollrants
Zeroh Tollrants
Reply to  Rurik
7 years ago

You’ve actually missed a major point with Coulter. She wasn’t targeting these people as her choices randomly, but for specific policies they were espousing. Her Romney push was for one thing only-his purported toughness on the border. She freely acknowledged the other issues w/him, but was well aware that the border/immigration issue are the numbers 1-100 in importance. She was extremely tough, (as she well should’ve been), against Rino extraordinaire, Juan McCain, even to the point of signaling she’d vote for Hillary, if need be. This wasn’t due to wishy washiness, but purely strategic rhetoric to wake up zombie lemming… Read more »

George Eliot
Member
Reply to  Rurik
7 years ago

Coulter follows whatever strong horse will get her where her ideology wants to go. She’s a power-watcher, like some people watch and categorize and journal about horses at the track. She has no problem abandoning a bad even after the pack has left the gate.

Severian
7 years ago

I’ve been saying for years now that today’s blue-haired bicurious vegan slam poet is tomorrow’s obergruppenfuhrer… and this how it happens. Those people most certainly fall under the umbrella of “fringe weirdo.” Their lives revolve around being on the bleeding edge of everything, and as the Alt-Right gains momentum, they’ll flip… and the grifters will be happy to sell them the jackboots, armbands, marching songs, merit badges, etc. A few years from now, all the hipsters will be wearing Pepe-logoed urban combat camo and yelling that they’ve *always* been race realists.

ganderson
ganderson
Reply to  Severian
7 years ago

I wonder how many commies fighting Nazis in the streets in 1930-32 later became Nazis. Quite a few, I’d guess

Severian
Reply to  ganderson
7 years ago

Goebbels himself boasted he could turn a die-hard communist into a committed Nazi in two weeks… but he couldn’t reach a Liberal Democrat (says Hoffer in The True Believer, and I believe it. Professors were the earliest and most zealous converts to Hitlerism – be sure to remind any academics of your acquaintance of that fact).

Dutch
Dutch
Reply to  Severian
7 years ago

Because those that want to control the thoughts and lives of others don’t really care about the process used to get there. Those who want the freedom to be left alone are very difficult to compromise.

Member
7 years ago

Looking at the actual video I’m confused what all the fuss is about. He said “hail Trump”(not heil) and raised a glass.

James LePore
Member
Reply to  Taco_Town
7 years ago

I agree but many in the crowd did the Nazi salute, which, along with the swastika (whatever their origin or original meaning) are now symbols of evil. They might as well have put on white hoods and burned crosses. Pretty stupid.

guest
guest
Reply to  James LePore
7 years ago

But they are called nazis regardless, and have been since day one.

Can you name one single pro white individual, who isn’t called a nazi by the msm?

It’s a heads I win, tails you lose situation with them, if you oppose the white genocide agenda, you are evil, if you don’t grovel down before them you are a nazi. I mean if milk toast Spencer is a nazi, then we are all nazis, even the z man, which is just “the man” said in a German accent, ergo nazi.

James LePore
Member
Reply to  guest
7 years ago

I don’t know much about the pro-white people, but I will assume for the sake of argument that they do not wish to invade neighboring countries or initiate another holocaust. Giving the Nazi salute was probably just childish and stupid, but it exposes them to being equated with Nazi atrocities. This can’t help their cause.

guest
guest
7 years ago

Z Man on Disqus: “Stop it with the “Roman salute” stuff. Everyone knows exactly what they meant and why they did it. These are a bunch of boys playing dress up and performing for the cameras. They made fools of themselves and have now disqualified themselves from serious company.”

To be fair, he was holding a glass, you can’t sieg heil with a glass in your hand, that’s called a toast.

That or i was unknowingly sieg heiling at every wedding i ever went to…

Member
Reply to  guest
7 years ago

I’ve only heard about this event through third parties, where is the Nazi salute thing coming from? Did the audience do it in response to his toast, or is this all nonsense?

Whitney
Member
7 years ago

I’m reasonably well informed and I had no idea who Richard Spencer was. I do know to beware of people seeking fame and power though.

Drake
Drake
Reply to  Whitney
7 years ago

I still have no idea who he is. I’ve read Cernovich a few times. He seems to be on the right track although I’m far too skeptical to trust internet people these days.

Member
Reply to  Whitney
7 years ago

I had never heard of Spenser either before Z and Vox Day had written about him today.

Dave
Dave
7 years ago

FWIW both Milo and Mike Cernovich say they are not alt right.

Ben H
Member
7 years ago

I’ve been reading Vox Day on and off for a decade and a half. He’s pretty much the same guy now as then, so at least he’s consistent. Cernovich seems like a guy who jumps on trends to sell his ebooks. He seems pretty harmless. Spencer on the other hand seems like someone trying to be the Bill Buckley of the 21st century. Apparently this includes running a secret handshake club where he takes people for real money ( http://mpcdot.com/forums/topic/8971-everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-phalanx-but-were-afraid-to-ask-because-you-would-look-stupid-for-wondering/ ). He seems like a person with poor judgment. And you’re right, for s guy who is supposedly influential I… Read more »

white man in a box
white man in a box
7 years ago

> Spencer invests a lot of time declaring himself the Pope of the alt-right No he doesn’t. He disavows it. I suppose he lets people call him that but he knows it’s bigger than he is and that it would survive without him. He does a lot to organize it though. All you people saying you’re knowledgeable about the alt-right but haven’t heard of Richard Spencer are kidding yourselves. As I’m sure has been pointed out in here, he /invented/ the term and has been on lots of podcasts, and appeared, nay, pretty much /led/ the conference with Jared Taylor… Read more »

Zeroh Tollrants
Zeroh Tollrants
Reply to  thezman
7 years ago

I’ve heard that both ways, so I’ll say that you probably are correct. However, in his defense, he was forming the movement, or rather the basis for the ideology, and calling it the Dissident Right, along w/ Brimelow, Derbyshire, etc., and the collision between those guys and the younger, in your face, meme warriors, is the only reason this stuff is getting oxygen now. I’m not actually that huge a Spencer fan, despite my posts on this thread, but I definitely know who’s been in the trenches formulating thoughts and policies for yrs, and who has not. I think the… Read more »

Hercule Poirot
7 years ago

“The people rallying to the Trump banner or the Brexit banner or any of the populist movements of Europe are not doing so because they want a white ethno-state. They just want normal countries again.”

Maybe not in America, although I am skeptical of this claim. In Europe, “normal countries” are white ethno-states by definition. This doesn’t detract from your main point, but the dismissive tone of certain US commentators about the alt-white faction grates a lot on this side of the Atlantic.

Member
Reply to  Hercule Poirot
7 years ago

In the late 1800’s and early 1900’s one rallying cry in Europe was “Macedonia for the Macedonians,” meaning liberation from the Ottoman Empire and creation of a nation-state for the Macedonian people. Like you said, by definition this means white and caucasian. Likewise when it comes to the alt-right movement which could just as easily use “America for the Americans” as its rallying cry.

fred z
Member
7 years ago

I should like to reverse an old proverb: Keep your enemies close, keep your friends even closer”.

We tend to watch our enemies closely but tend to trust our friends and give them some slack. This is a mistake as they are as full of sin as anyone else.

guest
guest
7 years ago

Spencer didn’t even sieg heil anyone, he raised his glass and said hail victory.

Watch the full 30min thing here: Richard Spencer – NPI 2016, Full Speech

And like i always say, if you aren’t sieg heiled into your forehead, where’s the problem?

To avoid that i switched to the casual heil a long time ago, problem solved!

Member
7 years ago

Like you’ve written before, a religion doesn’t necessarily need angels, but it does need devils. I’m sure somebody, somewhere, has a coherent definition of alt right that suits their purposes. But, to distill it down into liberal-speak succinctly, alt right = Klan. That’s it, nothing more. They need a devil, and they need to tie that devil to Trump and the GOP in as few steps as possible. If Trump hires a guy who they have decided is alt right (it doesn’t matter if it’s true, or even if there’s an actual definition of alt right everybody can agree upon),… Read more »

Member
7 years ago

Anyone wants a frog, I’ll give ’em a frog! Here’s the frog I’ve stood behind since I was a wee tyke! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H35odPm7b3w Now THAT’S a frog! I think your wise to have doubts about that guy. One quick look at the website and I had a horrible flashback to Susan Powter, the “stoop the madness” lady. Ann Coulter even looks a bit like her if memory serves. Once the initial carny enthusiasm wears off, it’ll be interesting to see who’s left standing. Plenty of phonies in the initial mix? I have no doubt at all. Our host has already earned… Read more »

trackback
7 years ago

[…] Maybe Trump recovers and avoids the fate Bush I, but I have my doubts. […]

Epaminondas
Member
7 years ago

We have to be careful to distinguish white nationalism from extremist white supremacism. White nationalism simply posits that Europeans have a right to nation states where they are the core ethnicity, as opposed to the ONLY ethnicity or “master race.” It’s a big distinction, and one that the Lügenpresse is very happy to overlook. In fact the MSM is actively seeking to confuse the public by pretending they are the same. Richard Spencer is not a white supremacist.

jrackell
jrackell
Reply to  thezman
7 years ago

Who’s calling them on it? The Lugenpresse or those punching right? You say, to paraphrase, who’s heard of Richard Spencer. Well, obviously Peter Brimelow, Jared Taylor and Kevin MacDonald have heard of him since he got them to attend his conference; anybody who’s been a long time reader of Takimag has, since he was an editor there; any old reader of The American Conservative should have since he was an editor there, that includes that no name guy Patrick Buchanan who was involved with AmCon at the same time; any listener of James Edward’s Political Cesspool should have since he’s… Read more »

trackback
7 years ago

[…] SOURCE […]

Karl Hungus
Karl Hungus
7 years ago

the alt-right is a young man’s game. fine for browsing (walk on the wild side) but no place for old men 🙂

Member
Reply to  Karl Hungus
7 years ago

30 minutes in /pol will confirm that times infinity.

J Clivas
Reply to  Taco_Town
7 years ago

Could you try to be less prolix?