Cynicism, Then Revolt

A popular line from libertarianism is that the state is violence. Another way of stating this is the state has a monopoly on violence. The implication is that the state imposes order, the order of those who control the state, with the threat of violence or through actual violence, in the case of law enforcement. It is a Hobbesian view of society, in which order is imposed, but an inaccurate one. Society, even authoritarian ones, rely on consent and a shared set of rituals and symbols to perpetuate consent.

Even the most authoritarian of societies, the prison, where the members have no control over their bodies, relies on consent and ritual to maintain order. The regularization of prison life, along with predictable symbols of authority, keep the prisoners from revolting against the guards. Without cooperation from the inmates, a prison would be ungovernable. The cost of housing and feeding humans in perpetual revolt against their captors would be prohibitive. A prison requires consent.

In a western liberal democracy, order tilts in the other direction, where the state relies more on ritual and symbol to encourage the consent of the governed. Elections are a big part of the ritual, where the people are made to believe their concerns are considered by the office holders. Every western nation has symbols and rituals to remind the voters that they live in a democracy. In America, patriotism is used to manipulate the people into supporting the system, despite their misgivings and distrust.

Order in America relies on the balance between the state’s monopoly of violence, the consent of the people and the maintenance of symbols and rituals that are the physical manifestation of the American creed. As long as the people trust and respect those symbols and rituals, they will support the current order. More precisely, as long as they believe those rituals, like elections and civic participation, support the American creed, they will respect the institutions of the state that maintain order.

Most likely, the process by which a liberal democracy moves from order to disorder, is like walking through a submarine. The people start in the compartment of high trust, but events lead them to leave that compartment and move to the next compartment called doubt or distrust. Once there, the door closes behind them. This is where the people begin losing faith in the office holders. The next compartment from there is cynicism, where the people have lost all trust in the system and the ruling class.

In this phase of social evolution in a liberal democracy, there is some remnant of consent and some tug of patriotism. The emotional connection between the citizens and the state is vestigial. It is a memory and a sadness at the onset of political cynicism, but then slowly builds to an anger at what has been lost. This is what Darren Beattie fears is right around the corner for America, if Trump’s agenda fails due the deliberate thwarting of the public will, by the people controlling the state.

It is safe to assume that the marginalized supporters who came out to vote for Trump will be forever divorced from the shared consent of the people. They will stop voting and stop thinking their future lies with democratic solutions. Just how many of Trump’s voters will fall into this state is hard to calculate. On the other hand, the coalition of the ascendant will be energized by this, so the general level of cynicism will be offset to some degree by enthusiasm from the coalition of the ascendant.

The truth never mentioned in the Beattie column, because it is forbidden, is populism is just code for white. What Trump represents is the white population, who think it is still possible to hold onto heritage America. If we just get immigration under control and fix some of the trade deals, things will slowly get back to normal. Oddly, this is the one thing the Left gets right about Trump. He does want to make America white again, if not demographically, certainly culturally and institutionally.

There is no question that many whites in America have moved from the compartment of distrust to the compartment of cynicism. Beattie is wrong to assume this process is not already underway. It started a long time ago as a trickle on the Right and now the pace is accelerating. This is evident in the growth and persistence of the dissident right, which has thrived despite the authoritarian tactics of the ruling class. Despite having more political prisoners than ever, we have more dissidents than ever too.

Still, Beattie is not wrong to assert that the failure of popular causes, like immigration controls, will push many more people into the cynicism compartment. The result will be an America where consent begins to fade and is replaced by coercion. White people will continue to follow the rules, not because they respect those rules, but because they fear reprisals from the state. The authority of the ruling class will no longer be based in their legitimacy to rule, but their control of the monopoly of violence.

In the trenches, soldiers will fight and die for their comrades, despite the rotten conditions their leaders create for them. In human society, the people will tolerate great deprivations in support of their neighbors. That social capital, upon which authority relies, will help maintain order, even when the rulers have failed in their duties. In a land where everyone’s neighbor is a stranger, there can be no foundation of social capital upon which to rest authority. The people must trust and respect their rulers.

That’s the next compartment after cynicism. When Trump’s agenda fails, as it sure will, white cynicism toward the system will grow. It will reach a point where the ruling class can only maintain order through coercion. They will live in fear of crisis, as the people will have no reason to sacrifice and no trust in the system to see them through the difficult times. The relationship between ruler and ruled will be like an old married couple hanging on until the kids are grown. The divorce is inevitable.

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254 thoughts on “Cynicism, Then Revolt

  1. I refuse to believe this negative fatalist view. This nation can be righted but not if the good people in it are convinced that the precepts of this article are their fate. The Jews believed they had no power to control their lives pre-WWII and that belief created a reality for them. We will not let that happen in America as long as many of us have breath to breath!!

  2. “The divorce is inevitable.”

    As long as this fantasy exists we will never accomplish anything. It is as bad as the gun consumers who believe that buying a gun means they are free and don’t have to fight back against the left’s onward match through the country. Only a tiny minority of Whites get how bad things are going to be. It will be generations before uni educated whites are forced to acknowledge the problem instead of collaborating with the enemy. By then it will be too late even if they want to divorce.

  3. Z, excellent work, as per usual. The bulkhead between distrust and cynicism has a necessarily high and long step. As you say, once through, there’s no going back. Jefferson pointed this out in the DOI with his phraseology about the long train of abuses and usurpations. Humans will tolerate much before stepping through that particular bulkhead, but once through ….

  4. The first 2 paragraphs on state violence being used to impose order…

    I agree that is cannot be the only glue to hold the country together, however, I’ve observed a tremendous ramp-up of the violence that the state is willing to use during the my life.

    Cops now dressed like soldiers who reach for firearms as a first, not last resort. No-knock raids, “red-flag” gun seizures where gun owners lose their Constitutional rights based on hearsay… the mask is really dropping on state-violence.

    Probably a tactic to keep “populism” under control while whitey is replaced, but it’s gaining steam. It’s one of the factors that pushed me into the “cynicism” compartment.

  5. This sort of describes the journey Im personally so I think it is quite on the mark.

  6. A prison does not require consent. A minimally human prison can and are constructed with no consent for men. Women kept in those types of prisons will suicide but men don’t. It’s like handling dangerous animals, possible and occasionally done but like a slaughterhouse in its inhumanity.

  7. Yes, this is accurate. And now, knowing this, you must use this information to make predictions about the future. Hint, the political class is deteriorating rapidly right before our eyes. Look at the members of Congress (nearly a third are outright loons or hate this country). Rise of tyranny is inevitable because government is a living thing, and it will do whatever is necessary in order to survive (think Stalin or Mao, and yes it can happen here). Predict and prepare, there is nowhere to run or hide.

  8. Can’t disagree with a thing you said. Interesting that William Barr might have come in from the cold to pinch hit for freedom. It’s two outs bottom of the ninth for the American experiment.

  9. This comment from Unz is worth a read.

    This is the start of the revolution.

    CENTURION says: • Website
    May 29, 2019 at 2:56 pm GMT • 100 Words
    @Achmed E. Newman

    My wife got a Hospital bill for over $8,000 FOR a basic MRI……..I got the Medical “code” for the procedure and went to a “free standing’ center that does this kind of stuff all day…and their “cash” charge for the exact same thing was $325………..

    I called up the aholes at the Hospital and told them I will pay them $500………….they refused…..I told them why and said “I, as a White Man, will not pay the medical bills for illegals”……………..the silence on the phone was golden………………

    I have not heard from them…no bills, no law suites……….nothing.

    F them all…I, as a WHITE MAN, am sick and tired of paying for scum, turds, muds and Nigers.


    You either fight today, with money, or we will have to use bullets…….

  10. The right seems as disillusioned as the left even though the “right” has most elected positions. I can’t remember a time when the winners of the election seemed so unhappy. Maybe I’m just not remembering the past correctly though.

    Political solutions don’t look like they can keep the country together much longer.

  11. As the inveterate blackpiller per Kevin Michael Grace, it looks like Pelosi is conceding on impeachment. Likely a slam dunk with Amash town hall stacked with dems panicking more than a few Reps into yes in the House. In the Senate i think it’s fifty fifty that Hillary can push spineless Reps into yes.

    Then the House can appoint anyone they want assuming they remove Pence as well or just ignore the law. Which they always do.

    President Hillary? She’s all in with the woke and woke capital. Half the doj and FBI work for her.

    A long drawn out war with Iran and China puts paid to those p lans. As it does the Gulag for White men in the works. War means White men are needed, especially against both Iran and China. Can’t outsource everything to Pajeet Kumar and Bao during a serious decade long war.

    Pray for war to avoid the camps and the fury of the woke elite.

  12. “…..When Trump’s agenda fails, as it sure[ly] will,…..”

    Z, do you not think that enough of Trump’s agenda will succeed to avoid tipping the scales all the way to cynicism on the part of whites? While there are a number of contributors, immigration control will be the mass that determines scale position.

    And, your take is that should such cynicism develop it will be “….an old married couple hanging on until the kids are grown” then divorcing. Do you really think it will be that civilized? I think there may be exacerbating factors; if Trump fails, much, if not most, of the responsibility will lie in the actions taken by the operating structure outside Trump (this assumes the majority of Trump’s agenda and actions are “successful” on their own and not unsuccessful on their own; since we’ve seem only a limited amount of them there’s some uncertainty) and I’d expect some amount of cynicism, if not most, to be directed against other institutions. The precise recipient of extreme cynicism, however, will probably be irrelevant.

    • Whether Trump’s agenda succeeds or fails, people are getting good and hard a lesson about who runs the country and how they go about it.

      What, if anything, people do with what they’ve found out is up to them.

    • The correct words are despair, despondency, and anger. Cynicism is way too shallow a thing.

  13. Recovering Libertarian… like a lot of folks here. It was a difficult slog letting slip the libertarian penchant. Its a wonderfully seductive ideology not unlike Communism. Unlike Communism, libertarianism carries with it native imagery of plucky Founding Fathers, American individualism bearing an organic feel to it that contrasts with the “foreign feeling” pie-in-the-sky promises of Communism.

    Both become train wrecks when they run up against reality and human nature. Communism inherently ends up with a body count, and libertarianism has no immunity to inevitable failure.

    Don’t get me wrong, I miss the warm feeling of libertarian ideology and the smarmy rapid-fire solutions to all of society’s problems that the ideology equips you with. I also still have a bad habit on knocking on wood when someone pronounces some impending possible doom… I don’t believe in mischievous woodsprites but habits die hard. Its taken a lifetime but I’ve grown out of believing in magic.

    Maybe in some Norman Rockwellian hamlet you could pull off some semblance of a libertarianesque micro-society. Hell, I’d love to live there, but magical thinking is for children… not a serious person.

    • If you don’t approach politics with strong libertarian instincts you are fodder for the collectivists.

      Taking Libertarianism to extremes is the lazy mans approach. It’s like saying that conservatives want no change, ever- Autos? No,No think of the buggy whip makers!

      Jordan Peterson lays out the issue fairly clearly.

      The societies of the West succeed because of the underling belief in individual sovereignty. In pretty much all fields that has produced the richest (in both material and cultural meaning) societies ever seen.
      The revolution is by tribalists: Peterson uses the example of a tribe of chimpanzees literally tearing to pieces other chimps not of their tribe.
      (Much to the horror of Liberals at the realization that wariness of strangers and preference for ones own king – aka Xenophobia, was genetically, not socially based)

      For both (most) Blacks and Jews membership in the tribe is their single most important characteristic, that is why they prey upon, rather than assimilate with white societies: it’s not their tribe.

      It’s impossible to point to any one point where things started to go to hell but the Civil Rights Act which destroyed the concept of Freedom of Association was certainly a greasing of the skids, In 1979 Homosexuality was defined in the APA’s DSM1 as a mental illness, In 2019 you can jailed for not sufficiently celebrating it, you have no chance in hell of not having it rubbed in your face.

      The underlying issue is, can whites overcome their aversion to tribalism l soon enough and for long enough to ensure the survival of their tribe.

      • Your post is fascinating because you say both “the West succeed[ed] because of the underling belief in individual sovereignty” and “The underlying issue is, can whites overcome their aversion to tribalism…”

        Your post mirrors my own political development. I am predisposed to individualism but this changed when I became convinced that ethnocentric non-whites were defeating individualistic whites due to their ethnocentrism. Now I see white collectivism as a necessary defense so that white individualism can exist.

        Don’t be discouraged by the negative votes on your comments. I value your contributions.

        • Well said LINE. If we and our heritage are to survive, first must come awareness as a group, actualization and then some form of collective identity and advocacy must follow. Collective identity and self-defense/advocacy will require a degree of collectivization, but in OUR PEOPLE’s big tent need to be a large place of honor for individualism and some libertarian principles. It is part of who we are and what we have contributed to the world.

      • I grok you in re: having libertarian “instints” or pedigree in your political foundation. I was expressing the feelz journey from conservative to libertarian to nationalist/RR. I so strongly associated Jeffersonian mythical libertarianism with my American identity that it almost felt like a betrayal to allow reason and reality to transform my thinking from the comfort of the idealized.

        I’ve always been staunchly anti-collectivist and remain largely so, though a monologue by Zman got me pondering the acceptance or perhaps even desirablility of some collectivized benefits and safety nets for OUR people.Do we not want to foster the prosperity and replication of our tribe or even to some lesser degree time-proven allied tribes? With a degree of societal approval I believe it would be an interesting avenue to look at… thus another nail in the coffin of my libertarian ideology.

      • I suspect that in the end this age will not be the end of whites but *will* be a genetic bottleneck for them that will produce a new race. I live in metro Portland and have a somewhat public facing job where I refrain from saying about 10 words for every one I do say. I see them float through my little realm of employment, the nose pierced (3 just today), the tatted, the bearded soy-fatted manchildren, the shemales in heels, the fat green haired slutwalkers… all white, all doomed. None of these creatures will have many offspring. It’s no big loss of course but I can’t help but think that this is the same genetic material that stormed ashore at Normandy not so long ago. All that cuckery, preening degeneracy, proud self destruction, it was all there somehow, just waiting, like Cthulhu and his fellow Old Ones for the time when “the stars were right”.

        • Wise words from Pozymandias in one of our most sickening cities, “I can’t help but think that this is the same genetic material that stormed ashore at Normandy not so long ago.”

          The hipster folk of Seattle and Portland display a twisted and obscene beauty that is ultimately suicidal. It’s sad. It’s like watching a loved one who is a talented artist descend into debased madness.

          That said, I must say that I have great memories of Hawthorne Boulevard in the 90s. Mount Tabor is a treasure.

          • I’m not from here but from Baltimore in fact, you know, Zman’s favorite place in the whole multiverse. I have to say that, having lived in both places, I’ve learned that not all “liberals” are alike. Baltimore, once you get away from the ghetto at least, was always a far more normal place. Even the libs I remember were mostly just trade union socialists. Of course that was long ago too. As for Portland, I came here in 06 and am trying to leave. I’ve watched as rents soared and the seemingly harmless old hippies have been replaced by these youthful abominations who wear their “gender fluidity” on their sleeve and always seem to be searching your face when they meet you. They want that creepy smile, that wink, that thumbs up. They crave, no DEMAND, your approval. My only act of rebellion is my stoic expression and insistence on keeping the topic grounded in business reality. Well I do sometimes wear camo pants and other “redneck” gear too. So far none of the snowflakes has complained about my “militaristic” attire or called me a Nazi, at least not to my face.

  14. I emerged from the seventies in full cynicism mode. I’ve been in that last compartment more than half my life. Mostly alone. At least I have plenty of company now.

    • My memory of the seventies was of a sort of Weimar period. The damage was done but the old order found their way in the most perverse exercises of taste and judgement. I felt like an innocent in an asylum. In retrospect, it was a fascinating time, and it is interesting how the people today treat the artifacts (the clothes, the photos, the music, the movies) with little comprehension of the true fundamental dissonance we lived through at the time.

      On some level it offers hope that there is a future for us today. But one has to remember that the ‘70s was a white thing, the white culture may have been disintegrating, but it was white. Not the mud pie we have today.

      • Z made a great point about the 70’s a few weeks back.

        In short, architecture of that time was hideous and reflected the rot, but the population hadn’t yet. Now, architecture looks much better, perhaps as a way of coping with the absence of a “volk.”

        Look at the beautiful recent structures in post-America Los Angeles (The Getty Center & The Grove are two great examples). White architecture will outlive white people.

  15. There was a thing in the news the other day that I thought was a good metaphor for all this: there was a kids’ national spelling bee, and the prize had to be shared by 8 Indian kids because the little pajeets had all crammed their brains out and memorized the entire damn dictionary.

    This is about as un-American as it gets. A spelling bee serves two purposes:

    1. Reinforces for kids the value of good spelling, and

    2. Is a fun kind of event so that the smart, nerdy kids who are no good at sports can get to have a big contest and win some trophies too. You’re supposed to be able to spell “rhinoceros,” not bizarre medical terminology.

    These foreigners misunderstand the entire social concept and instead weaponize something as silly as a spelling bee in order to secure some imaginary advantage about getting into Princeton. Somehow it never occurs to these striving geniuses to build another Princeton, though. It’s like you went to your kid’s dance recital and some Chinese millionaire hired the Bolshoi Ballet to dance for his kid.

    It’s not going to be possible to share a country with this sort of people. And they’re super-busy hoovering the whole place up, so you better start making some realistic IRL plans.

    • Not to be “that guy”, but there was a peaches-and-cream white girl among the eight, I think Erin Howard was her name. Good for her! The group photo shows a rose among the thorns.

    • This is why their own country is a giant shit hole. They are not builders by nature but exploiters and users. This is why you will never see a rich Brahman built their equivalent of the Getty or donate money for a public performing arts center, etc.

      The only thing to do with such people is give them the boot. Seriously they are highly nepotistic and predatory and really don’t contribute to our society at all.

  16. It’s like Bulgaria in the 1980s — people still mouth the old slogans, march in the May Day parades with red banners fluttering in the breeze, etc. but no one believes it anymore, they just go though the motions for fear of losing their jobs.

  17. Easter Sunday I went for a run in my city’s Central Park (coastal Orange County). The place was packed with, mostly but not exclusively hispanic, families having picnics. In the time I was there I counted more than a dozen “street vendors” with push carts selling food and trinkets. It was pretty weird, and not “American” at all. I also know that it’s illegal for them to do so (not that I care more much either way).

    It’s kind of a microcosm of what Z is talking about. You don’t see that type of thing in native crowds, because it’s not legal so it’s not part time of the culture. And that norm is enforced by policing and fines. But here there was a large gathering in the center of a suburban city (police hq is literally only 1-2 miles away) in a giant metro area with a complete ignoring of the legal regime and the powers that be didn’t care enough to attempt to enforce the law.

    That’s the direction CA has been headed for some time. The politicians enact their laws, but he public ignores them and the cops don’t care enough to enforce. For now, white people mostly follow the law out of habit. How long that will last is anyone’s guess. It’s reminiscent of Latin America, or Italy and Greece.

    • Can confirm. OC was a rare White Right oasis in California only 20 years ago – now it’s fully Mexified. Santa Ana courts & hospitals are indistinguishable from East Los Angeles. Classic anarcho-tyranny. Victor Davis Hanson is at his best on this subject in his Cental CA homeground, street vendors, impromptu trailer parks, drunk driving rampant. Cops know Whites will pay fines and not shoot at them, and they have to write some tickets sometime, so we get the tyranny. Those whose poverty and lawlessness make them “enforcement-proof” enjoy the anarchy.

    • I know where that is. It’s a great park when it’s empty. Parks only look nice when they’re unused. They’re magnets for immigrants and pedophiles. The sad thing about that area is that the flat landers come in to cool off from the places without the marine layer. I consider them to literally be stealing the cool air that they can’t afford.

      • I was in Carmel, CA recently, which is truly a paradise on earth. Everyone I saw over 40 was white, and everyone under 40 was Asian.

        It was very obvious that the strategy for keeping it beautiful is to turn it over to the Yellows, so that the Browns can’t have it.

        • Carmel CA has priced a pack of gum so the Browns (or the Blacks) can’t have it. They have priced every single element of the cost of living away from the rest of the 99%. But the Yellows have the bucks to pay the price. The blockbusting is coming from a different direction on that one. At least when the Whites get run out of town, they will be paid well for the privilege, unlike most blockbusting exercises.

        • Many times day hiked Point Lobos…miss the Pacific waves crashing on rocks.. and sea otters. Now I have antelope. And prairie dogs.

          • RFF, I love the hell out of Utah. It’s tragic that the LDS have allowed the POZ to enter.

            I think that BYU was so good at creating effective middle managers that the POZ was inevitable. Still, the small towns remain monuments to European Man’s ability to tame nature. I’m blessed to have spent time there.

          • Well, Meme, I love the hell out of Utah too. The POZ entered because the church moved beyond the inter mt west, grew beyond the US and became an international church. The church quietly backed Romney and Romney is a globalist pirate…beyond nation. There was no way to stop a missionary based religion outgrowing their clothes, so to speak. Now over 150 temples all over the world and all the money needed to keep the operations going, a majority of members are outside of US and are Marxist-lite. Embrace open borders, embrace the teeming masses, church giving millions to refugee resettlement, and that sets us up for the destruction of our own culture. The irony is there was no way out of the church not eating it’s own tail.

            PS: You spent time here in Utah….where?

          • RFF- Southern Utah; Cedar City and St George mostly; been to all the National Parks and have tried to explore the back country.

            Also have been up and down the Sanpete Valley and love it profoundly. The first time I saw the Temple in Manti, I couldn’t help but think of that scente from Lord of the Rings where Boromir speaks of seeing Minas Tirith in the distance, with its flags fluttering in the breeze. Truly a magnificent structure.

        • Carmel is great, as is 17 Mile Drive. The problem is the tourist busses of people. It may as well be a European village at some tourist crossroads. So much of the coast is that way.

    • For now, white people mostly follow the law out of habit…
      Because those kind of laws are only enforced against whites…Try doing something like that on a scale like that and see what happens…

      • This is the truth, I’ve watched traffic enforcement from up close. Soccer mom gets pulled over and earns a citation for a burned-out licence plate bulb. Meanwhile three vibrant-driven cars will chug by billowing exhaust and a grip of operational violations in the time it takes the CHP to finish scratching the ticket.

        Soccer mom can pay and hell, she’ll probably even feel embarrassed and guilty to boot. In the cop’s defense, who wants to pull over the other three cars and roll the dice on having a “situation” or adding to the ever-dreaded racial disparity statistic for the city?

        • I suspect that if Whites continue to learn to behave aggressively and lawlessly as they are and is well within our nature modernity to boot will come to a blessed end, Best case Honduras 2.0 , worst case Heil Hydra

          Inside every White guy is a marauder and there isn’t a White man alive other than a very few religious types who deep down wouldn’t want a comely slave girl and a gas station fort to call his own.

          This is why there is the huge anti White nationalist Skinhead narrative and regular movies, These guys are small in number but scary, not feral exactly but past caring about this society and its rules

          Juggalos get this treatment too though they are officially anti racists

          This is also why Sons of Anarchy, Vikings and Breaking Bad were such hits. All were implicitly White and reminded White folk who they can be , lawless and free

          • Come on guys! You forgot…..3 women together are a cat fight! You’ll have to rule like Attica State Prison and even then, women are competitive..that’s how we evolved. Unless you want to go all Warren Jeffs and Harun al Rashid. Herding cats may be easier!

          • Wife + Concubine is plenty since I’m a book worm and need time to read.

            A harem is just a lot of work for the variety and its just as RFF noted , like herding cats

            I’m also too old for that much activity alas

            Besides I can always sell or swap out, the slave girl I mean not the wife. 😉

          • “there isn’t a White man alive other than a very few religious types who deep down wouldn’t want a comely slave girl and a gas station fort to call his own.” WTF LOL

    • I live in SoCal. I don’t mind Latinos using the parks. I could be wrong, but it seems like the parks would be vacant without them. I’ve never really seen whites using them. Even 10+ years ago. You drive by and see a big Latino extended-family gathering, with bbq, the women making food, balloons, kids, pinatas, and you think “good to see people actually USING the park.” They’re well behaved and clean up afterward.

      I realize the parks in the real bad areas are a different story. But normal Mexicans in normal areas don’t hurt park culture.

      I went to a park in San Bernardino (meth capital of the world at the time) to play tennis and it was obvious the city had completely given up on it. I walked into the bathroom and there were a bunch of wacked-out vagrants just hanging out in there. I was going to use the urinal but there was a black guy standing behind the privacy half-wall jerking off. I said “what are you doing?” He said “nothin’ man”, and just kept jerking and staring at me. I think the bathrooms in these broken city parks just become sex & drug dens.

  18. Back in the 1860s, Walt Whitman wrote the great line “I hear America singing, the varied carols I hear.” Many of us at this site had to learn that poem in grade school, and we all knew implicitly what Whitman meant, and we all had the same idea as this long-dead extremely gay man had had about what “America” meant.

    That country is gone. What we have now is a giant cookie jar, and the word is out on the street to every grifter and swindler on the planet that it’s OK to come here, grub around in the cookie jar, grab as many cookies as you can, and nobody will stop you, least of all the White people who built the place. What we have in terms of social order is really just a barely-upheld agreement that it would not be nice to attack the people who are plundering us. That’s about as good as it gets in terms of civility.

    Nobody is happy with this arrangement except the foreigners, who increasingly come not from the hopefuls but from the Third World swindler/grifter class. The people buying up your housing stock with suitcases full of laundered cash (and bidding up the price so that increasingly, homes can only be bought by other foreign grifters) are people who managed to swindle a few million out of their countrymen then high-tail it over here to take advantage of a social order they have no intention of respecting. Some fellow-citizens they’ll turn out to be. America was the Land of Opportunity, now it’s just the Land of Opportunists. The whole thing is obviously untenable.

    Fortunately North America is a very big place, and it should be possible to carve out a White ethnostate about the combined size of France, Germany and Poland. The big question is can that be done without violence.

    • The big question is can that be done without violence…I can answer that for you and the answer is (drumroll please) no it can’t…So all your efforts should be in to making sure you win…

      • If you play the Game of Thrones, you win or you die.

        That said the main goal needs to be Pre 65 Demography and no Cultural Marxism, everything else in unimportant.

      • Lineman….I just woke up to an ugly truth, and feel foolish..not stupid ..just foolish.wandering in the land of fluffy bunnies and unicorn… and not getting this. Am reading book by Charles Adams “When in the Course of Human Events-Arguing the Case for Southern Secession.”

        “Like all Northerners, I was force-fed Lincoln adoration from early school days on into university history courses.” I had no idea what suspension of Writ of Habeas Corpus meant, Lincoln just took power, convened congress 3 months after calling up the troops and rolling out with war. Politically correct…we ain’t seen nothing yet! He shut down newspapers, and if some papers wrote contrary editorials, he jailed the editors to shut them up. Threatened to jail SC justice Roger Taney. Pro-succession was considered tyranny and a jailable offense. This is a tough word to use but dictator may apply.

        Point is: succession ain’t happening…not in my lifetime. What was I thinking. The globalist left will not let us go. Land…resources and power. Sigh…of course. They will pull the full on Lincoln and beat us into submission. Civil war will erupt after the Lincoln treatment and will last a long time. Not done without much and protracted violence. They don’t want to let us go. We are way past the Dec of Independence, rule of law. The left is literally lawless, and wave the bloody cloth of the Constitution in front of RINOS and CivNats to blind them and shut them up, with no intention of following the rules..they make them up.

        Your point of view?

        • My point of view could only be discussed face to face because it would need facial expressions and hand gestures to fully get my point across…On Lincoln I agree he was a tyrant and I would tell you to look at his history to know why he was the way he was…Look at all the times he failed at doing something which means that he could only do things through force otherwise he would fail again and the government gave him that ability to do that…

          • Damn….the Italian salute! Lineman and E…..what I needed to hear. Very good arguments. Brain stretched and got it. Will look up more on Lincoln.
            Sigh….no way around the blood fight and the fires of war. I was thinking like a chick….thanks….on the other hand, how else can I think!
            On overload. Done with the world. Outside to see clouds and antelope.

    • Assume for the moment that we carve out that white ethnostate somewhere in North America. It would get complicated in a hurry, specifically with regard to foreign policy. Which nations would be friendly to us? Which nations openly hostile? Would we have access to ports? Without access to the ocean, our ethnostate could not survive. And it would need a very powerful military to intimidate any would-be invader. At some point, war would come as a result of any number of factors. Whites would realize that the “other” would never leave them alone. We would have to conquer in order to gain peace and respect. Some kind of terrible example would have to be made of a hostile power. Whites came to where we are through the fires of war. We have to go right back down that path to regain our former position. It’s going to be all or nothing.

      • Epaminondas – I’ve recommended them before, but let me again suggest reading the Covington books. Not saying they’re utterly realistic or the road to follow, but he does address all those follow on questions – foreign policy, defense, domestic policy to re-accustom the population to a moral and White nation, etc. Made me really think about what it would take – and made me fully jettison the “return to the Constitution” canard.

  19. “It is safe to assume that the marginalized supporters who came out to vote for Trump will be forever divorced from the shared consent of the people. They will stop voting and stop thinking their future lies with democratic solutions.”

    This is me. I think the final straw was seeing Trump go full NeoCon after a minor setback in 2018.

    I’ll be honest, I don’t have a clue what comes next. But this nonsense needs to be over. I see no reason to participate in electoral democracy other than to metaphorically “crash the plane with no survivors.”

  20. People will indeed “tolerate great deprivations in support of their neighbors.” But what will happen when the white/north asian enclaves are destroyed by the dumping of 3d world immigrants in those neighborhoods?…Neither I nor my liberal wife are willing to suffer serious deprivations for the benefit of Somalians….What happens when the only livable enclaves are occupied by the ultra wealthy and powerful? The social glue will disappear, across the board….

    • I already live there. It’s called California. We pay a dear price every day to live in the right municipality. Any poor white person would be insane to stay here. It’s not a place to be unless you can run hard on the treadmill.

      • It’s not a place to be unless you can run hard on the treadmill…
        It’s not even the place to be if you can Brother…Do whatever it takes to vacate that place…

        • I’m retiring in Montana, several years to go. Has to be west of the continental divide though. Possibly North Idaho with every other Californian. I need cool nights in the Summer. Even the 60s at night is too hot.

          • Come check out where I’m at in the Bitterroot Valley and see if it’s a good fit for you…

          • Speed it up, brother. Be careful of the California flood to Boise and spilling over up into the panhandle. Also, lefty enviro mountain biking bouldering types have taken over Moab Utah, growing in number in St. Geoge and spilling all over. Many small western towns taken over by new action lefty back to the land-ers, bakery owners, Michael Pollen types from Berkeley/Orinda hills with money, and they bring their ferocious politics with them, i.e. Ashland and Medford, Oregon gone down the hole.

          • I live and work with those people every day. I even sold my carbon fiber bike because I said “wow, I must look like such an asshole on this thing.” I know those people so well. They have a magic ability to make any place they reside insanely expensive…and full of Nepalese cuisine…because Nepalese sounds better than Calcutta slum.

          • Choosing to live in the west in a mostly Mormon culture (parts of parts of Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, Northern Nevada) has it’s benefits. My subdivision of 1/2 acre to 2 acre plots does not have trash all around, no one dumping their crapped up old car on the roadside, no fights and mayhem in the street (Ha!–except my Mormon neighbors from California..they were lefty dysfunctional Californians first, Mormons second–keep that in mind. The crapped up grandfather grew too old to be threatfully stupid and his crappy grandson moved away.) Stupid Mormon politics, however. Stay clear of the Salt Lake corridor. Central Utah Hwy. 89 corridor nice and cool….I live at 5600 ft. elevation and decent temps.

        • JR…your adrenals will crash…your head will explode. Try working in downtown Oakland to wake you up. For God’s sake, man, start making your plans, make an options list, and get out. I jettisoned over 100 years of my people in California, and every single day I look at my new world and am grateful. Not perfect but will do for now. No Whole Foods, no Ranch 99, no fresh caught crab, no Vietnamese pho. Big deal…So what.

          • I hate all of those things. Ranch 99 is the most overrated. I can make my own Pho, which is mostly just a gallon of beef broth. Yep, same here, over 100 years. Prop 187 was the last stand.

      • Same here but there is no way I could afford a nice zip code so I live among the Mexers. Luckily they forced out the stone age rage apes so the quality of life is a bit better. The Mexers think I’m into illegal gambling because of fighting roosters I keep as pets and it helps that I look Central Asian/Slavic and tans real easy.

        I’ll probably move in a year of so. But I’m not a millionaire and cannot afford to live in a white community so it limits my choices to shit holes. I’d still be stuck living among Muzzies, Mexers or rage apes. Maybe I’ll try Lone Pine. in the Owens Valley.

        And the problem is, is that running has caused whites nothing but problems. We let a bunch of degenerates and moochers run us out of our cities and even states. F**k that. shit. It’s why I despise most whites. Our flag should the whiter rabbit on a spit and why we will probably lose any fight with the empire.

        • Rod…waiting to afford a “nice” zipcode….well, you could be waiting for Godot. My town is filling with plygs, lefties from Vegas and Calif. More druggies…more illegals South of the Borders. Wasn’t that way shortly after ’08. Not yet Calif. Still small-medium towns east of the Wasatch Range and Hurricane Cliffs lower cost of living and buying property. Just dink around on internet and compare COL and housing. Raise the blinkers…..where there’s a will there’s a way, and all that. I never thought I could do it…..and I did.
          Every day…..surrounded by beauty and living in gratitude for me.
          Best regards….

    • pyr;
      Or, maybe we become Brazil. Of course, the US hemispheric imperium is the historical reason why Brazil is allowed to remain Brazil (it’s always the country of the future and it always will be).

      IOW, we’d end up being conquered and overrun by a country with more social cohesion than Latin America, quite likely at the invitation of some faction or other. The Cloud demonstrates its stupidity by attempting to overrun us with low capability invaders. No wonder they’re terrified by Russia 😉

    • @Pyrrhus
      The social glue is already disappearing which means if you’re in a place that will go sideways without it then you better be vacating that place as soon as possible…

      • I am staying put in California. I intend to live among the enemy, like some of the Free French did in Vichy France. Because that’s what California will be, a turncoat, marginally functioning Vichy America. It is going to be interesting around here. This is my home, it is what I know. YOLO anyway, and I am largely done. Some things can be done from other vantage points, but you need some people imbedded in enemy territory as well. So I have made preps. I figure I will be outed fairly quickly, but you would be amazed how many of us there are around here, if you know where to look.

        • Once a critical mass decides to vote with their feet, I’ll be the guy telling young Californians to “go White, young man.” Then draw rear-guard fire to throw the SJW’s off their trail.

          I want to see the attack CHiP’s on fire off the shoulder of the 110, bright as road flares…

          • @Exile
            You probably won’t get your wish to see CHiPs on fire because they will have left with the mass exodus…

        • Oh I know there is a lot of us around there even in the Commie strongholds…I’ve worked with a lot of them and they control the infrastructure…Always good to have options though and not lock yourself in to a kill box…

        • Alright, hon, but keep in mind what Lineman and I advocate. I understand up to a point your plans;however, you may change under fire and you don’t know that you may, so…as backup options..make that escape to Avalon list just for ducks….you may never use it…and then you might. Penny wise-pound foolish cultural thinking could bite you.

          • Yup, lots of plan b and plan c around here. Places to go, lots of ways to get there, multiple vehicles, the fuel tanks always topped up.

            A couple of hours from the big city, nothing but unspoiled mountains in the distance in every direction, here on my hilltop it is brush clearing season, cut for a couple of hours at a time, then take a break and visit the Z. Lots of good, similarly situated neighbors. Horse and Jeep country, with a few old airplanes thrown in here and there. Seriously, I am hiding in plain sight and enjoying every minute of it. It’s all about what makes you happy and how much of it you can find.

            But I do have contingency plans. Lineman and RFF, if you find yourselves out here in enemy territory, look me up. I’m out here at the far end of a very long road.

          • I’m out that way every so often just need an address and I will swing by…What kind of whiskey do you favor?

          • We meet at the 79 and 371 intersection, Riverside County, out the Temecula to Warner Springs stretch. It’s a bit of a ways from there, but there are locked gates and occasional patrols and such along the way (not as intense as it sounds, but people around here have certain expectations of others). My tastes are expensive, but Jack will do ‘er nicely. Give me a week or so lead time, I live multiple places and am always up to various things, so would need to clear the calendar.

          • Shoot me off-line contact info to vcuzner(at)aol(dot)com. Throw an odd word in there. Then come back here and post the word; the first e-mail I get with that word in it is you.

          • Sent something out about an hour ago. Let me know if you didn’t get it. If you did, you know how to reach me directly.

          • Thanks…wishing you the best….and will keep your invite in mind.
            However, visiting CA is as far down my list as a heart attack. Each time I visit the family, either something really ugly happens to me, or I see really weird crazy dangerous people who look like they stepped aside and something wretched stepped in. And car with Utah plates…well, had a problem one time with just that. More and more ask basic daughter to meet me in Reno so I can avoid CA.
            The invite holds true for you to visit back here in Central Utah. (Enticement: 2 hours from Bryce, 2 hours from Zion, Cedar Breaks just up the mountain)

          • Don’t blame you, it is crazy out here. But the good people lay low. They don’t trust outsiders at all, and you’ve got to be brought in the door by locals, or you are on your own (which fits exactly with what Lineman talks about). The level of trust is pretty low, and I am always reminded of how “Mad Max” driving can be around here, when I get out to other states. I worked a good part of my life figuring out how to make it work for me out here, using a lot of local knowledge. I think I’ve got it wired for me, but it is likely an acquired taste. Comfort in being a loner makes it easier for me.

          • Good for you! Made it work for you. Appreciate your description. I get it. You’re 1 in a million.

          • I love Cedar City and have stayed there quite a bit…Love their pawn shops they have really good deals…

          • Good guess. Make me laugh! Have missed the pawn shop. Missing part of a girl gene as my husband is better at bargain shopping than me. Not part of my makeup. Make a list and go is my motto. Have stopped for the time being attending the Shakespeare festival as have gone all, what’s the right word, POZ don’t wish to see Othello played by a gay Asian tranny guy with a lisp, or some big butchie woman. The Festival has gone all Ashland. Too many festivals, SUU and art museums/artists have changed to cultural left. Locally, the herds of sheep on the edge of town keep us balanced until they go Far From the Madding Crowd and over the cliff. Demographics changing.

          • Please don’t tell me the Utah Shakespeare Festival has given into the POZ. I haven’t been in a few years but was strongly looking at going this Summer.

            I saw Othello there in the 2000’s and it was true to Shakespeare’s original vision, not Shlomo’s.

          • The Shakespeare festival is now over the top virtue signaling PC Shlomo….the festival is down the rat hole. Last year they Me Too’d groveling. Also, often the setting has nothing to do with how the Bard wrote…like Hamlet in an old west setting, and goofy edgy costumes. All gone. Occasionally they keep to tradition, but you’d better read up on the production or you may get a nasty surprise.

          • The drive between Panguitch Lake and the Town of Panguitch is one of the prettiest I’ve taken, anywhere.

          • The antelope are up from Panguitch Lake fairly often along Mammoth Creek road. Here and there, and herds on great basin flats west of town.My world is beautiful, and stunning changes from 5,000 to 10,000 feet.

        • All of the jokes about California being too pozzed to save aside, it’s tragic what we’ve lost.

          From the post war period to the late 80s it was whitetopia. All of the great beach towns, bohemian art colonies, beautiful winding country roads through the hilly interior, great cities that were clean, fairly safe and vibrant in the pleasurable sense of that word.

          National Parks, amusement parks, attractions of all kinds with appeal to all kinds of people. Opportunity at every turn, affordable, friendly and open (most people were from elsewhere so most were more open and friendly in a sincere attempt to forge bonds and communities).

          And now in a few short decades it’s all but gone. Unless you’re old enough you can’t really comprehend what’s been lost. The few nice places left will eventually decay like the rest of it.

          We joke but this loss was no joke.

        • Petain did nothing wrong. The Germans did not colonize France with Arabs and infact removed the levantine population. Dday was a mortal error.

  21. What’s interesting about the libertarian thing is that Trump is a particularly Randian character on the world stage, at least rhetorically. He makes the case that the U.S. has the right to act in the best interests of the citizens of the country. Now libertarians may argue about whether particular Trump policies improve welfare or not, but at some gut level they should love Trump for asserting our right not to sacrifice our interests to some poorly defined global collective.

    And that is what this whole populist thing is all about — the elite’s refusal to act in the country’s best interest, and in a broader sense, act rationally. It’s not so much that they are serving another master, it’s that they are destabilizing the entire world by their cowardice in facing human nature. Rand would have despised these people.

    • On a personal level (how he lives his life) Trump is the most libertarian man in human history, Caligula being a close runner up. Every waking minute is about pursuing maximum sensory pleasure for himself. Things like “duty” and “responsibility” don’t concern him. Your woman starts aging? Get a new woman. You owe a sub-contractor a million? Let him go to court and settle for 300k. His greatest strength is having zero baggage. Jeb Bush had the baggage of legacy and desperate approval from the power elite. The dark side of this is that it also means Trump has zero loyalty to political goals.

      • For all of his faults, is there another U.S. politician who would have taken a public dump all over the completely bogus Paris Agreement like Trump did? That was a meaningful gesture of defiance. “No, we’re not going to sacrifice ourselves to the climate gods. That’s insane.”

      • JR, zero loyalty to political goals, and yet, Trump has not let up in the face of strong criticism of/reaction to those same goals?

        What could have been easier for him than to complete a phony “deal” with China, call it victory, and move on. Hell, everyone else before him has.

        What could have been easier than to avoid the IA fiasco and deal with Dem’s on an overall immigration plan? Call it victory and move on.

        Even the JQ folks get so agitated upon—like when he moved the embassy to Jerusalem. He could have postponed and moved on.

        I’m sure we could argue whether any of these goals is worthwhile or could be better obtained, but his drive/loyalty in trying to obtain his goals in the face of overwhelming opposition is better than any President in my memory.

        Now, he may well “screw the pooch” before achieving success. That is the risk we are all in. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

        • Not at all. Everything he does and says is calibrated to sooth his base while selling them out. The Jerusalem thing was to keep the Southern Baptist Convention locked down. It doesn’t put him out to take up a cause or action because he doesn’t really believe in any cause or action other than power and pleasure for himself. And part of his enjoyment is watching huge swaths of people go nuts when he does something. He gets off on it. I actually like that about him. Even though so little has been accomplished.

          • Really, name one thing wrt to IA’s and the Southern border that he could have done, but has not. That seems to be number one issue in constituent polling. You claim he’s selling out his voting base, how in the above respect?

        • Trump is the ultimate “don’t give a shit” attitude kind of guy, which makes it totally difficult for his adversaries. AG Barr is another one, and is happy to come right out and say it.

          Trump does give a shit, because he actually answers only to himself. He will not cut a phony deal with China because he will not allow himself to accept that. What the rest of us might think about it is a very, very distant second place.

          Kim Jong Un understands Trump’s need to answer to himself. Un’s execution of the people who were negotiating with Trump and his people, whatever else it might be, is also an exploration of the definition and boundaries of how Trump answers to himself. Will such an act, done to presumably accomplished, loyal, and meaningful players in the negotiating game, alter Trump’s negotiating calculus?

  22. “The authority of the ruling class will no longer be based in their legitimacy to rule, but their control of the monopoly of violence.”— Democracy is more about brandishing perceived power than actual state assertion of power. Democracy is about picking random people out of thousands for prosecution, it’s not very good at corralling thousands of people during uprisings. The reaction of democracies to uprisings is generally half-assed, with appeals to calm, as politicians fear some Kent State like incident, with special committees and blowback.

    Hence the emergency button called “martial law” where an instant dictatorship would be formed. I can envision an extended “emergency period” in which martial law is ongoing for months on-end.

    • I’ve been hearing about martial law since I read patriotard sites back in ’08. I cannot figure out how the US government is going to effectively control 3.8 million square miles and 350 million people with a few million men. I don’t think martial law is possible outside of cities. The most they could do is monitor online activities and kick in the occasional door.

      • If you’ve been reading patriotard sites since ‘08, you’ve also been simultaneously neglecting all the vast array of military history since well before your and I were born. God knows occupying armies rarely have complete control of all the country side they technically occupy, hence the immense discussions on insurgencies, counterinsurgencies, and general rebellion.

        • It grows harder by the day to control a society that is do decrepit that typhus and bubonic plague are now concerns when a few years before they were not. One idiot from Africa with Ebola could create a panic condition in the cities and while vaccinated troops could be used to maintain order, if they are willing, good luck keeping the supply chains open for long

          The US is both amazingly robust and incredibly fragile which should scare any sane person

          Also note the Right is really poor at organizing and as such could be suppressed pretty easily. On average tougher and better trained than the Left many and many Right Wingers have military or at least martial experience but unless able to operate as a unit, even a small one are easily crushed by MS13 or Crips and even easier by military units

          Its like this, you have to sleep, your family has to sleep. An Army or a gang (or a militia) does not.

      • Marital law, particularly imposed by Dem leadership, would be a Godsend. No way would most of our military go along with it, no way would it work outside the big cities. It would be a the defining moment of our divorce.

  23. Interesting.

    Though it may it be a bit of a stretch to say “populist” is code for white, though in some cases it doubtless is, but it’s not just about white: rather, white, male, and working class.

    But a lot of white collar whites gravitated to Trump, too, but these aren’t the kinds of white people the elites are trying to portray as populists. And remember, the percentage of Hispanics voting Republican actually increased with Trump as the candidate. It seems there’s a notable number of Hispanics who have had just about enough of illegal immigration, too.

    The difference is that Hispanic Trump voters won’t be publicly shamed, or lumped as “deplorables”. The term “deplorables” was meant to intimidate non-white male, blue collar whites, by insinuating that they would be socially ostracized if they did not tow the mainstream line.

    “Vote for Trump, and Hollywood hates you!” “Vote for Trump, and your Oprah-watching wife will be ruined and be forced to divorce you!” “Vote for Trump and you will be excommunicated from the office water cooler!” Etc. Etc. Etc.

    • I wouldn’t care if every last one of the millions of magic papers/magic dirt Mexicans, Guatemalans, El Salvadorans, or Nicaraguans voted for Trump – they are still not my people and their interests are not my interests. Their “conservative values” consist of ever-increasing government and handouts, and their “limit” on immigration is after every last personal friend or relative is on my side of the border.

      This cucking for imaginary based browns, blacks, and yellows is getting tiresome.t

    • Being white is a frame of mind as well as a skin color. We whites have historically completely overestimated the capacity for non-whites to adopt the white frame of mind. Tribal and cultural preferences, over time, win out almost every time. “Making the world safe for democracy” is a good shorthand for all of this delusional thinking.

      • White isn’t one race or culture and projecting modern Protestant values on the whole of our peoples or history is also absurd

        White is an ethnic group made up of various of European derived peoples, not more not less

        These groups are well extremely diverse and assuming say a Russian (technically Eurasian I know) would like the same systems and respond the same way to certain social pressures as say an Italian is ridiculous

        In the end for our people to survive and prosper we have to stop making economic and political systems our focus and concentrate on land for our kindreds free of other kindreds and that respects our various histories good and ill

        Everything else is a distraction or an end run by the centralizers , Christendom being just the EU in priestly drag

  24. It is virtually impossible to limit the State as long as we enable the myth of egalitarian diversity. We are not the same we are not equal they are not like us. When we as a people allow the State to go beyond its enumerated powers legitimate purpose becomes a moving goalpost. The Federal Government in example operates outside its constitutional authority infinitum. Leftists are parasitic ticks that should never be permitted to attach themselves to anything, especially the State. Making America White Again is a good start. Keeping America Free from leftist ideologies will be easier when we become White again. Whether or not our divorce is meant to be a peaceful one remains to be seen.

    • JMDGT, those that contribute to the State should have a say in State affairs—perhaps even in proportion to their contribution. That’s the basic concept of earned suffrage from another subversive we sometimes bash, Heinlein.

      I admit, I have no idea how to revert to such once lost, but such was the Founders’ intent. If earned suffrage was in effect, I suspect a lot of the evils of the voting public would go away. Making America White is just a proxy for producing a better class of decision makers at the ballot box. But it may not work there either given the indoctrination of all our students after 12 or 16 years of public (mis)Education.

      • One of the biggest battles I see ahead for those of us on the dissident right is the State and its relationship to the people. Being white has always meant more than being Caucasian. As appealing as the ethnostate is I’m not sure it would solve the majority of issues we face culturally. There are plenty of left thinking progressive White/Caucasian idiots out there and they should have no say in affairs of the State regardless of contribution. A cultural of like minded intelligent realists regardless of their actual race may be the better ideal. Doing away with government schools will go a long way in preparing our children for the battles we face in the future. Make the parents responsible for their children’s education. When it comes to funding the State, everyone contributes no exceptions. If we keep the State in check we can nurture and protect our culture without the boat anchor of diversity around our necks. Get rid of the welfare State first. Limit the existing State to its enumerated powers without a nuance interpretation of what it is responsible for. In my humble opinion.

    • What you’re basically proposing is a return to the classic Cold War standard of capitalist is versus commies. What schlock. MAWA is indeed the most important, if utopian, goal and there I agree, but capitalism is a piss-poor avenue to achieve your ethnostate.

  25. Yeah, I remember about five years ago or so (maybe more), it hit me like a ton of bricks: I want a divorce from these people. I was tired of arguing with lefties and CivNats. We were simply different people with completely different views on the the world. We couldn’t compromise because there was no middle ground. We hated each other but were living under the same roof. It was best for all if we just went our separate ways – whatever the costs.

    Once you reach that point, it’s impossible to go back. Every argument just re-enforces what you already know, that it’s over.

    • Citizen, I agree. On top of everything else, we have been prohibited, by threat of banishment or arrest, from even being allowed to articulate our arguments and preferences in public.

    • I agree, but they will not let us go without another all out civil war. And this time, the dissidents are not neatly organized by state.

    • Agree. We cannot come to terms with either group. Nor will they leave us alone. They are intent on ramming their ideology down our throats at the point of a gun and then disposing of us later.

      F**k them. They are making a civil war inevitable.

    • I had an interview down in TX a few years ago. Loved the town. Would have moved in a cold second but the wife put so many conditions on it – not feasible. 🙁

  26. Beattie’s article gets the rise in cynicism right but inverts the reasons why.

    He essentially argues that the steak of nationalism was the subject but the sizzle of Trump’s populist style was what closed the sale. Maybe for some. But for most of his voters he got their votes in spite of his style and because of the substance of his implied white nationalism.

    Beattie argues that you need to deliver some actual concrete promised accomplishments, but it’s the populist salesmanship that matters more than what’s being sold…Populism used correctly can eclipse nationalism and replace it with something more…kosher.

    Then he gets to his real concern…DT should have enlisted AIPAC in the immigration debate: less undesirables, no Ilan Omar types, no BDS, better security for Israel.

    And that’s why we need to embrace populism.

    • There is a great divide on the Israel issue, as it relates to domestic politics. Some like to admiringly point out Israel has a wall, close to a zero immigration policy and an ethno-nationalist attitude. Others flip this around and use those policies to bash Israel to American liberals.

      Mike Enoch hates Israel, so he loves pointing out how Israelis treat Arabs. RamZPaul on the other hand, celebrates Israeli immigration policy as a good example for America.

      • I’d like Israel’s policies to be implemented in America. I detest its influence in American politics.
        Don’t give a damn about the Arab-Israeli conflict otherwise. To most normie-Cons of my acquantance, this is anti-Semitism. When I point out that I’m no more so than Pat Buchanan or Richard Nixon, they just splutter. As much as David Cole’s style and tone irritate the hell out of me, if his fellow tribesmen followed his lead (e.g. enough with the Shoah, already), we could work things out.

      • I agree with Enoch (by way of MacDonald) that Israel’s immigration policies are exactly what Jewish leadership doesn’t want for goyim, because goy cohesion = pogroms in the Ashkepathic mindset (h/t Heartiste). As much as David Cole’s tone & style annoy me to death, he’s one of the few Jews in media pushing his tribe to lay off the paranoia. If it weren’t for Jewish meddling in Gentile domestic affairs, I would be indifferent to the JQ. Unfortunately, we’re light years from that in every Western country.

      • Since our current immigration plan is a product of the Kushner-AIPAC wing of the internal Jewish debate I thought Beattie’s use of AIPAC was telling and hilarious.

        Pointing out hypocrisy to the Tribe is wasted effort. Ramzpaul used to engage in a lot of edgy satire, an option no longer available to him if he wants to stay on youtube. “Easy Bake Ann Frank” was TRS level stuff.

        Lighting a fire no matter how small under the tribe day in and day out drives their neuroses to the edge forcing them out into the open and into overreacting.

        And because they are so hypersensitive it is very easy to do, even obliquely. Which you do as well as anyone…

    • AIPAC & its adjacent orgs have a role in the immigration debate – to push open borders for every other country but Israel, especially America. Even Con, Inc. Jews like Prager & Shapiro live in fear that White Christians are going to put them in camps. If Beattie believes AIPAC would ever support immigration restriction outside Israel, he’s high on his own supply.

      • Jews like Shapiro and Prager probably check on the Dissident Right podcasts and sites like AmRen, and observe that “anti-Semites” aren’t just a few goofballs dressed as Nazis anymore. They see that it’s coming from serious, educated thinkers with platforms to spread the word. If you’re a Jew with fairly recent images of bulldozers dumping hundreds of naked emaciated kinfolk in a ditch, you’re not going to be OK with just letting the D-Right do their thing. You’re going to think if guys like Enoch get any sort of foothold, it’s gonna lead to the bulldozers again. This isn’t just Jews being paranoid. It used to be, but it’s not now.

        • 75 years ago isn’t recent. As David Cole points out, this nuclear Reaction is entirely within Jews’ power to contain. If you don’t want Chernobyl, turn the control knobs down from 11.

          AmRen isn’t remotely involved with the JQ, btw. Taylor studiously avoids that rail.

        • 75 years ago isn’t “recent.”

          Cole’s right – Jews can contain this nuclear Reaction. If you don’t want Chernobyl, turn the control knobs down from 11.

          AmRen doesn’t touch the JQ, btw. Taylor’s policy.

          • “AmRen doesn’t touch the JQ, btw. Taylor’s policy.”

            Kevin Macdonald ever spoken at AmRen?

            Did everyone enjoy Mr. Taylor’s presentation at SCANZA this year?

            That’s what a polite disengagement from the JQ earns any dissent today.

        • Frip, I admit there are a small number of Dissident Right J3ws who will support immigration restriction. However, the effort to identify such j3ws would be enormous and many of their offspring would revert back to the mean of cultural subversion. J3ws are the most ethnocentric people. Is it worth the effort?

          I wonder if you are feeling bad about judging people about qualities that they did not choose. However, only white people feel bad about such judgments.

          • Per a very prescient comment made in the last few days, too many people, especially upper-middle class white women, are much more interested in earning an “A” social grade than actually looking at things as they are. Hence the generational reversion to the pozzed mean. Only something like radical Islam has had the pure coercive strength to substitute their own report card for the prevailing one, and that leads to ‘sploding peeps. And the Chinese Communist leadership has picked up on this tendency, in order to institute their social grading system. Talk about an elite correctly reading the weaknesses of the pozzed!

          • Exile, true AmRen was bad example, I was just typing fast. “75 years ago isn’t recent.” It’s all relative. But 1945, compared to say, The Inquisition, or total history, is recent enough. Especially so, since anything on film (which is the same as watching TV since that’s how we see the footage) psychologically puts an event in the modern-contemporary-now category. So if you’re a Jew the Holocaust is recent. (I’m not denying they’ve weaponized it.)

            LineIn, I don’t disagree with what you said. I was just saying that hostility from the D-Right toward Jews, justified or not, can’t help but rev up already jumpy Jews. Post WWII the Jews have been knowingly bullshitting about the “scourge” of antisemitism. But in the last decade they see real ‘antisemitism’ sprouting up in intelligent form again, this time from something called the Dissident Right.

            I don’t think the D-Right should modify its views. Just saying that we can’t really mock the Jews anymore for always thinking the Cossacks are on their trail. Because we really are on their trail now. They read and listen to D-Right stuff. We aren’t literally calling on them to be killed. But to a Jew we come well close enough! LOL. When it comes to extermination 75 years ago IS recent.

          • “I don’t think the D-Right should modify its views. Just saying that we can’t really mock the Jews anymore for always thinking the Cossacks are on their trail. … We aren’t literally calling on them to be killed. But to a Jew we come well close enough!”

            No, we aren’t calling for a hollow-cost. Many of us just don’t want our country’s media, politicians, educational institutions, and economy to be dominated by a tribal subculture that undermines our values.

            If opposing them politically makes Jews fear pogroms and cattle cars, then they are paranoid in a literal psychiatric sense. You say we should not modify our views, but what then? Shut up because otherwise they’ll think we’re the Gestapo? I do not favor giving them that power over us. They have enough already.

        • Jews brought this on themselves by subverting their host nations to self-destruct via cultural destruction and demographic replacement.

          It’s hard not to notice Jews at the forefront of all of these movements.

          And they can just as easily throttle back on their group hatred of whites so there is no worry. But they won’t so the animosity keeps building. They really are their own worst enemies.

  27. It seems that many people are under the illusion that they can live in a white (orderly and prosperous) society while at the same time banishing all the white people. Good luck with that. “Populists” understand it, consciously or subconsciously.

    In speaking to a church congregational counselor/coach recently, she said that the poison in a congregation is never a person, but it is something else that needs to be identified. In that spirit, IMHO our cultural poison is that the people are being taught to banish all the white people and grab all their physical and cultural stuff. The elites are willing to weaponize that attitude. So here we are. The rest of it all stems from this poison. Trump and Obama and Hillary are just little markers and totems in the bigger game.

    As part of this counseling/coaching thing, we were paired off with other congregants one-on-one, in order to practice silently listening to what others have to say. My partner was this ancient solitary man from one of the local old folks homes, no doubt hobbling out to give his brain some exercise. He wasn’t a familiar face and came alone. He talked about how it was “all over”, the kids live in another world, no one listens to anyone any more, and all the “get off my lawn” stuff. Later, under my questioning, he explained that he grew up on a family farm in Iowa, was part of a small town, and “everyone thinked alike and looked out for each other, and that kind of thing is all gone now”. Bingo. We aren’t going back, there is no “back” to go to. What was once the cultural mainstream is now a subversive lifestyle.

  28. Excellent analysis. Memory and sadness building to anger. That describes my psychological evolution exactly. Divorce is inevitable.

    • No it’s not divorce that’s inevitable it’s annihilation for our side or theirs…What are you prepared to do about it is the only question you have to answer…

      • Spot on. Divorce is not possible. Empires never willingly give up power or territory, let alone admit that they are wrong. Nor is living with the empire feasible for whites any longer as it intends to kill and replace us. In fact they make that quite clear in their propaganda organs like the NYT

        You don’t reason with a cancer that’s killing you, you excise it.

  29. The system will rot and decay. The ruling class, unable to solve the problems or unify the mess they have created will simply default to cynically exercising power and privilege. Their sepoys will rape and loot the civilisation extracting wealth and humiliation from the former majority with the blessing of the overclass.

    White America will become increasingly alienated, increasingly aware of its new position as dalits in the secular hinduism we call Intersectionality. This is the breaking point..the point at which whites no longer think of the government as US but as THEY.

    A group of aspiring elites or perhaps a faction of the ruling tribal coalition that is shut out of power will begin looking for the allies it needs to build a new coalition, and it will find them in the dispossessed and seething white america.

    • That’s the usual process for “circulating the elites” when the present cabal tries to hang on too long. I thought Trump was that “class traitor” but he was either unwilling or unable to fill those shoes. We seething dispossessed are still waiting for our revolutionary leaders. Soft secession via “voting with our feet” and cafeteria Federalism where we pick and choose which Empire policies we will follow is probably the best short-mid term option. States and cities legalizing drugs & illegal immigration are showing it’s possible.

      • Trumps problem is that he is only one person. What is needed is a strong faction of the elite willing to mobilise, finance and organise. I’m betting this faction will emerge from the democrats, and i have a suspicion its vanguard will be a mix of frustrated east asians and non-conforming alt-black types.

        • I’m skeptical on blacks, but “alt-Left” Whites, EA’s & Hispanics (who Z has rightly noted are strangely absent from the Ascendant corridors of power despite numbers) are a good bet.

      • Exile, That was generally my thought in reading Z-man’s essay. Remove oneself from the system as best as possible and let it try to function without us. However, I hesitated because that concept was stated a long time ago by that hated (Libertarianish?) Ayn Rand in Atlas Shrugged.

        • “Going Galt” was one of her best ideas. We’re pushing the basic concept, but our world has room for Eddie Willers as well as Hank Rearden.

        • We have to make our own system because this one isn’t working anymore is what I got and have got from reading these past years…That’s the only way Galt works otherwise your just hiding out to be eaten last when they get around to you…We have to be offering system that is better for our people that’s the bottom line and the sooner people wake up to that fact the sooner we can win…

        • You cant escape it. Retreatism hasn worked, wont work. They wont let you retreat and wont leave you alone.

      • Trump seems to really believe in America and has the old style thinking that goes with it. He’s been mediocre in a lot of areas and could have done better. However, he’s faced a soft coup attempt, district judges making national rulings, a lack of any significant part of the establishment rallying to his side, and a Congress that doesn’t support any of what he campaigned on.

        Had Trump done everything he promised, it would only have delayed the inevitable. Instead, the resistance he’s faced has only pushed things along.

  30. You’re seeing the breakdown in the sputtering efforts to get a new war started. Back in 2003 heritage America still believed in the institutions (foolishly, I might add), and that we were a righteous nation united in freedumb or some such nonsense. Trump has opened his regime doors to every discredited Republican hack and even the shrinking White majority is having second thoughts about the “shining city on the hill.”

    • I wish I could upvote this comment one-hundred more times. There just aren’t enough NASCAR Dads to go around this time and the Boomer -Cucks are all pushing seventy if they haven’t already reached that milestone . Maybe in another ten years the last of the exurban flyover country Conserva-Dads will finally realize it’s not 1990 anymore.

  31. “They will stop voting and stop thinking their future lies with democratic solutions.”

    Me since 2018. I gave Trump and his neo-con clown car more than a year to begin credibly implementing his “the first day I am President…” promises. I understood there’s a gap between campaign rhetoric and governing with a “resistance.” But he kept hiring too many “resisters” and “nevers” for me to continue believing this was anything but another Con, Inc. grift to MIGA.

    I largely checked out when John Bolton’s cuck-stache reappeared in the West Wing. I cared more about immigration than foreign policy, but Bolton was a final straw that showed Trump, if he was ever legit, had been converged. Giving Israel “Purim miracles” while letting the border I live on disintegrate even further was just too much to bear.

    Throw in Jeb-isms like “just look at that black unemployment rate” [fake news – another U6 shuffle ala Obama] and I could no longer stomach my orange potatoes.

    I’m in the “working for the Third Founding” compartment. Adios, Empire.

      • There’s a reasonable argument that Trump has simply been coerced into cucking, or that he’s feckless. That said, all the more reason to place no trust in the system, to consider the Empire our enemy and to work to separate ourselves from its clutches.

        • That said, all the more reason to place no trust in the system, to consider the Empire our enemy and to work to separate ourselves from its clutches…
          The only way to do that fully is to become more powerful than them or spend your life hiding from them which let’s them become more powerful to the point there will be no place to hide anymore…

      • And it is yet another DODO who believes Trump has a magic wand and if he doesn’t wave it to bring a better world into being by saying “Bippity Bobbity Boo” he just is not worthy of Mel Blanc’s adulation. As far as his “ability” I’d point out that he has billions, is president of the USA, and sleeps with a supermodel while having a private jet whose bumper sticker reads, “My Other Plane Is Air-Force One.” I’d say he’s pretty much run the table so far.

        • Could not agree more, sir. This spot we find ourselves in was generations in the making, and that system does have real power to defend itself. The idea that any one man would remedy all its ills overnight was always naive to put it kindly. I don’t think we’ve seen the full cadre of forces arrayed against him even yet.

          Trump may not be “one of us” (however you define it), but he’s a clear step in the right direction.

    • I’m not asserting you are wrong, but that you might not be right. We real American are in possession of NONE of the control nodes of our own civilization, and half of Pres. Trump’s support comes from weak people who will abandon him to defeat and destruction if the marxist-globalists can paint him as a racist/bigot convincingly enough to preference-cascade their social approval networks. He HAS to kiss all these asses: some of (and especially) the Jewish factions, the gays, and the various diversities to prevent this.

      There isn’t a goyim on this planet who can play Jewish factions off against each other, when they ALL know exactly what he is doing, and still succeed. The man is a big damn hero in my book, and I’m supporting him until he is finished. His vision of the future is not one that I want, but if it were feasible it would be one that my nation would not be eradicated under.

      Pres. Trump is trying to get real Americans in as stakeholders of the empire, alongside the other nations of the empire. He is failing. The current imperial ruling class does NOT want *any* real Americans inside the control nodes, because they know that we do not want to join the empire, but rather to destroy it and expel its minions from our land. So he WILL fail. But another 4 years of Trump is another 4 years of peace and preparation, another 4 years I get to live, so he gets my support.

    • I’ve seen plenty of signs that Trump is learning on the job, as any President must do. He has become much savvier in who gets key jobs in his administration. Sessions–>Barr, Tillerson->Pompeo. Great choices so far for SCOTUS, and reportedly good choices for most lower court nominees as well. No grave GWB SCOTUS nominee mistakes like Roberts.

      We must also remember that no President in our lifetimes, and likely EVER has faced an organized resistance that includes members of the “GOP”.

    • I fear he’s another example of “Tell both sides whatever they want to hear, because we still own both parties.”

      Trump voters heard our wish list, and Hillary voters heard theirs.

      Ivanka and Chelsea were both assured a future, especially since both are having Tribal children.

      • As a long time reader and fan of your blog who has never commented before I have to say that I agree fully with bilejones. The second paragraph is, by a very wide margin, the dumbest thing I’ve ever seen written here.

        • This is fairly typical of libertarians. They like the goal post on roller skates act. When libertarians say the “the state is the monopoly of violence” they are clearly implying it exists because it has a monopoly of violence. When this is pointed out, the goal posts are pushed over to some argument made forty years ago about spontaneous order. If I write a post about the absurdity of that argument, the goal posts get pushed over to the other side and I get posts about the monopoly of violence.

          Either way, this is not a post about that retarded religion called libertarianism.

          • Z Man;
            For people who are proud materialists and atheists, Libertarians sure have a touching faith in the supernatural. Spontaneous order, my azz_!*

            A nodding acquaintance with college physics 101 re the laws of thermodynamics should lead one to understand that maintaining order in any system requires work to offset the effects of the 2nd law. Work in the classic definition means energy applied according to some design (i.e. information).** Information is not material, as witnessed by this or any and all internet postings.
            * This is a classical ‘assume a ladder’ argument like the old joke about the two economists in hole.
            ** I.e. useful work.

          • I was a libertarian for a long, long time. One day it finally dawned on me why it was conceptually broken.

            “Free society” is an oxymoron. The most fundamental bargain required for society to exist at all is the exchange of some degree of autonomy for the benefits of being a member of the collective. Now, where to draw the line between the claims of the collective and the rights of the individual is a legitimate argument, with a broad range of possible answers, but the point is, the claims of the collective are indeed valid and necessary for any society to exist at all.

            The libertarian wants to have it both ways. He wants to claim the benefits of membership in society while denying its claims on his autonomy.

            To be free is dead easy. Get yourself a cabin in the woods, and you’re free to do any damn thing you like.

            But that is not what the libertarian wants. He wants to be a participating member of society, and accrue its benefits while shedding any responsibility for contributing to its maintenance. Notice that there are few libertarians living in cabins in the woods.

            No, the libertarian’s argument is directed at exactly the collective whose authority he denies. If participating in political activity isn’t collectivist, what would be? Politics is by definition an appeal to the collective (especially in a democracy). If you don’t recognize the authority of the collective, why are you appealing to it?

            Indeed, the mobile goal posts, even more than the NAP, are probably the most essential feature of libertarianism.

          • Bruno;
            An excellent exposition of one of the core problems with Libertarianism. Bravo.

            Sounds like the big reason we older Boomers despised the trustafarian, self-righteous ‘rebels’ of the ’60’s and ’70’s amongst us. Those that didn’t fry their brains later became The Cloud, BTW. Bill Ayers is Exhibit A.

          • Libertarianism has always seemed to me a refuge for the damaged. We didn’t have the word “sperg” back in the 60’s but at my progressive school there were a number of Ayn Fans and their most common characteristics seemed to be their dorkiness, fear of girls, poor personal hygiene and general unwholesomeness. Don’t get me wrong, they were generally quite bright and a number made a lot of money later in life. But no one thought they were happy.

            Not sure if the Libertarianism was a cause or a symptom.

          • “If you don’t recognize the authority of the collective, why are you appealing to it?”

            Because the collective won’t leave me the fuck alone. Self-defense. So I don’t have to try to shoot all the members of the collective to be left alone. Dammit, Smalls.

          • People tend to glom onto the words of the opponents that are the easiest to ridicule. For example, when criticizing views of White Nationalists or race realists, it’s a piece of cake to find some neo-nazi and pretend his statements are representative of all WNs. Not true, not fair, but certainly commonplace.

            Zman does this to some extent by defining libertarians as only the left libertarians (aka, socialists) and moving anarcho-capitalists and fellow travelers into some alt-right category. Then, as many comments show, it’s easy to deride Libertarians as too idealistic, or goalpost moving, when what’s happening is either one is debunking the least defensible position, or, more frequently, selectively citing positions some subset of Libertarians as being representative of all Libertarians.

        • It seems to me that the second paragraph is obviously true. I would amend it only in that the prisoners form their own governing associations, the gangs, and they cooperate with the guards as long as the gangs are permitted to govern their members. This is all tacitly and mutually agreed to by prisoners and guards.

          • You also just described Mexico, and the relationship between the government and the drug cartels. That is another obstacle Trump is up against when he tries to pressure Mexico to stop the flow of illegals. When people criticize him for the increase, I have to ask, what else can he realistically do?

          • Trump declared economic war on Mexico two days ago. It remains to be seen if it he will be allowed to prosecute it.

          • Unnited States and Texas have always won vs. Mexico, so far. The Cartels control 80% of the land area of the failed State of Mexico.

          • DLS, my sentiment exactly. What else can he do? What my fear is, albeit not from this group, is that Trump begins to be blamed personally for not stopping the flow of illegals. That would imply to the normies that the IA flow *could* be stopped had we only elected the “right” person in 2016. And of course, the solution is to go back to the ballot box for the right candidate in 2020, or 2024, or…you get the picture.

            What Trump will go down in history for, if nothing else, is that he was the straw that broke the camel’s back wrt the fallacy of the civnats and democratic rule by the people. Really, I believe it’s all downhill from here, albeit the road will be long.

          • Actually, Trump’s tariff gambit is quite deft, if obvious, because it has no downside for America, but poses huge problems for Mexico’s “free riding” activities…

          • @pyrrhus:

            The Mexican president has already contacted Trump and is asking for a meeting.

          • He can deploy the Army, Air Force and Marine Corps to the border and stop the invasion by force of arms.

            Is that so difficult to grasp?

          • Longbow, the military have been neutered by Congress. We can send the entire US armed forces to the border, but once a Central American illegal touches US soil, he has to be delivered to a border station and held or released until he gets a court date. Congress could stop the invasion cold by repealing this law, which was signed by GW Bush. Further proof he was an awful president.

          • I was reading the most wanted criminal list for my Midwestern city. Half of them were Hispanics. The charges included 2 murders. Meanwhile the city is full of do- gooders and overrun with “refugees” from every Third World cesspool in sight

          • Yeah, the prisoner example is really no different from the Government example following. Prisons require cooperation to minimize force/resources needed to control the prison/prisoners, but when the system gets out of balance, the overwhelming force of the State is applied (think Attica) and the prisoners are killed—at least until the old order is regained. There are even more horrendous examples of such in Latin America prisons where hundreds are killed by the Army that literally lays siege to the prison.

            So the question is, what form does the rebellion take when the normie prisoners in America say, “enough”?

          • Absolutely right, Bob…Order is maintained in the prisons by the various black, hispanic, and white Aryan gangs…in return for certain illegal concessions to them by prison authorities…This is well known to those of us who are attorneys in big cities…

        • The amount of pro-libertarian butthurt around here has reached levels I’ve never seen before. The second paragraph is the most self-evident truth in the whole post. In what way does a prison not rely on legitimacy/consent to function?

        • The second paragraph is spot on. Go ask a large sample of prison guards/screws. This is EXACTLY the case.

          • Yes, but the question is, “how is this fundamentally different from the following paragraphs describing the civic process of maintaining order and cooperation?” I’d say, not different. That is to say, a distinction without a difference.

            In the end, the State always maintains the threat (right?) of violence—assuming they retain control of those forces needed to enact such. Luckily, those forces sometimes figure it out sooner than later and conclude it’s better to dump the existing government and side with the people.

        • I too am a long time reader and (now) first time poster. The second paragraph is 100% accurate. Having worked in corrections for years, I can unequivocally confirm this. The instant more than a small handful of inmates decide they don’t want to follow the program it turns into a stalemate at best, and a full blown riot at worst. Negotiators are called in, tactical teams put on standby, off duty officers called in etc.. If the inmates decided to do this on a regular basis, prisons/jails as we know them would not be feasible.

          • Got stuck in a horrendous traffic jam headed to JFK in Lyft driven by a retired NYC Corrections officer who worked Rikers his entire career. We had a lot of time to talk about his former job. One thing he told me that his decision to get out and retire was driven by the younger inmates, particularly the illegals who refused to acknowledge the “rules”. Said it made the job miserable. Expand that to an entire society…

        • I dated a prison guard’s daughter years ago, and he told me some stories. Z’s second paragraph is dead-on accurate.

          • Just search YT on prisons and prisoners. There are at least two or three channels by ex-cons that elaborate on their experiences in the prison system. One is even English and has had English ex-cons on to elaborate on differences between the two countries.

            That there is cooperation of a sort between inmates and their keepers does not negate the underlying threat of forced behavior through violence by the State—albeit, the State is not beyond using the gangs as enforcers from time to time of the order they require.

        • You don’t believe a prison requires consent, DWS. I suggest you rethink that while streaming OZ in your own private cell.

          “Faces along the bar
          Cling to their average day:
          The lights must never go out,
          The music must always play,
          All the conventions conspire
          To make this fort assume
          The furniture of home;
          Lest we should see where we are,
          Lost in a haunted wood,
          Children afraid of the night
          Who have never been happy or good.”

      • So you think Alexis de Toucqueville was wrong?

        ” Americans of all ages, all stations of life, and all types of disposition are forever forming associations. In democratic countries knowledge of how to combine is the mother of all other forms of knowledge; on its progress depends that of all the others.”
        Alexis de Tocqueville

        “The more government takes the place of associations, the more will individuals lose the idea of forming associations and need the government to come to their help. That is a vicious circle of cause and effect.”
        Alexis de Tocqueville

        I assume you think he was wrong about the Russians, and their posterity of course, too?

        ” The American relies upon his personal interest to accomplish his ends and gives free scope to the unguided exertions and common sense of the people.
        The Russian centers all his authority of society in a single arm. The principal instrument of the former is freedom; of the latter, servitude.
        Their starting point is different and their courses are not the same”

        Alexis de Tocqueville

    • Anarcho-libertarians would disagree but even us Randroids back in the day went with the stock libertarian line that the state has a monopoly on violence and government is a “necessary evil.” Libertarianism was a big crazy tent, but the mainstream were not anarchos.

      • It would be worth investing heavily in gigantic geodesic super dome technology just so we could build a giant dome in the Atacama Desert and send all the libertarians there, so we’d never have to hear their conversation-disrupting drivel ever again. Or maybe they can go live in a dome on the Moon; I’m told it is a harsh mistress, and Ayn Rand fans evidently have a thing for harsh mistresses.

        • Bada bing. Everyday Newt Berman, I am in awe over your last sentence. One for the ages.

        • The only drivel I hear in this forum, is from Z-man, who keeps bringing up Libertarians. Beginning to sound like Leftists seeing NAZI’s under every rock. If he cured his fixation, we’d hear nothing of such philosophy.

      • Federalist, exactly. Z-man has decidedly allowed a fringe group to live rent free inside his head. The Libertarians reached their zenith a couple of decades ago and it’s been downhill since then. They are little more than a straw man for Z-man to knock around when he needs another hundred words in his essays.

        • Given that a large number of us passed through that gateway on our way here, Z’s approach makes sense. The mystery is why so many here either white-knight these spergs or stifle criticism by indifference-trolling.

          • Exile, for me anyway, it’s the point of the negativity and diversion/distraction from a positive message and teaching point.

            In the present example, the entire mention of Libertarianism could have been excluded and the message not affected. That we continue to be lectured on the evils of “Libertarian” philosophy begins to make me a bit suspicious of the messenger.

            It is cultish in nature for a group to obsessively dwell on the evils and wrong thinking of other groups. Smacks of insecurity and a squashing of “wrong think”. As has been pointed out, Libertarian philosophy is not monolithic in nature. It is part of many of our backgrounds, but all have moved on—except perhaps Z-man. ;-(

          • Exile;
            Agree. It’s at least as important to understand why Libertarianism is wrong as it is to understand why Marxism is wrong. What’s needed right now is a (semi) coherent body of thought about why anybody should align against the feckless Cloud-Folk.*

            Interestingly, IMHO, both ideologies share a common delusion as to the nature of humankind. Both seem to assume that humans are inherently good but for the current institutional arrangements and, more arrogantly, that their programs can correct this situation.
            * I know, I know, one ought not let the ideal be the enemy of the ‘good enough’. But we still need to get to ‘good enough’.

          • The simple way to correct the whole thing is to understand that both libertarianism and socialism can be helpful critiques of society, but they cannot be actual models of society. They are a spoonful of cod liver oil, not the whole damn cod. Rock out to “2112” when you’re a 13-year-old, then move the hell on. Even Geddy Lee is far less grating on the ears than Ayn bloody Rand.

            It’s the same way that both Nietzsche and Freud can be read as very interesting criticism, but Nietzsche is not positive philosophy, and Freud is not actual science. It’s all fun and games in “Beyond Good and Evil,” but Kids, Do Not Try This At Home. As TS Eliot once said, A poet doesn’t have to be right, he just has to be interesting.

          • Postcard, interesting point. But should we mire down the explanation/creation of a dissident right philosophy with the fine points of how it is not Libertarianism, or Socialism, or Civnat, or whatever.

            In other words, do we define ourselves by elaborating on what we are not, or do we concentrate on defining what we are. Fine points are necessary, but perhaps beyond the average normie one wishes to convert to the cause.

        • Libertarian thought has noticeable influence on how the right sees American History. With the BOR having some distinct negative rights influences and libertarians acting like they invented the negative rights concept. However much cannot, and getting the right to understand the founders had a more well rounded philosophy than “negative rights= government” is an obstacle.

          Plus the founders didn’t see their government as something universal, but a workable framework for European descendants. Libertarians pretend the Constitution can work no matter the population demographics. Mostly because despite being smart enough to recognize racial differences they are too cowardly to admit them. Therefore they continue to push an unworkable plan.

        • Compsci,
          I was responding to the first comment where bilejones wanted us to read some libertarian scripture.

          Zman’s post mentioned libertarianism in passing in discussing how the state maintains its power through more than just violence. The problem isn’t Zman, it’s the libertarians who rush to renounce the heretic.

          • Noted. Not sure I or most others intended to “defend” Libertarianism or renounce a heretic. Indeed, I heard most people—including myself—state more or less that Libertarianism is a thing of the past, a dying philosophy, certainly not worth organizing a dissident rightest movement around. Some concepts may be worth taking note of, but as a framework to rework a new society, it is insufficient.

            Libertarianism *is* a good example however, of a philosophy that *could not withstand* the demographic changes we are now encountering. What worked in 1976 White American society often falls short in 2019 Vibrant American society.

      • You ought to care. It’s the biggest hijack going of men who normally would be upholding civilization. It’s actually challenging to argue against until you see it as a self referential loop that is not less utopian than the dreams of the most wild eyed Marxist.

    • Help me out here. What are some real world examples of spontaneous order naturally arises in a society for a prolonged period of time. I’m not talking about people getting together after a disaster, which does happen. I’m talking a situation where decade after decade a society exists with almost no government relying instead on spontaneous order when needed, i.e. to build a road or hospital or various infrastructure.

      Even the American West quickly saw the arrival of government for things like approval of railroad routes. What I’m asking is when has there ever been a functioning libertarian society, especially in the modern world?

      Also, what’s to stop a spontaneous order from becoming a coercive order? The prison gangs are a good example. They likely naturally arose to fill a need (protection) but once established continued to hold on to power and imposed their order on new inmates.

      In addition, how does Libertarianism defend a society against tribal people? Libertarianism doesn’t seem to jibe with HBD, but I’m willing be shown different.

      • Correct. So why bring it up? There are no die hard Libertarians here. We’ve moved on. See what I mean? We are arguing fine points about a philosophy we no longer believe in and is arguably in decline, rather than a discussion about the meaning and intent of 90% of what Z-man has astutely observed and wrote down for today’s lesson!

      • Look to the animal world. For great examples of group dynamics.

        Prides of Lions

        Packs of Wolves

        The fission–fusion society of chimps…

    • bilejones, I haven’t read the article you cite, which may be quite good. However, even assuming that spontaneous order does arise, doesn’t the character of that order depend greatly on the actual people being spontaneous? I don’t want to experience the “spontaneous order” of a black or brown society.

      You do include the “at least those in the West” qualifier. Doesn’t the need for this qualifier demonstrate that WN should be your highest political goal and that libertarianism should an issue to be debated after the establishment of an ethnostate?

    • The essay you cite does not help your case. It’s a mess of different viewpoints, many incompatible or even contradictory. Tucker, Spencer, Menger, Molinari and the Scholastics simply do not belong in the same essay.

      That said, the second paragraph is pure bunk. It requires not consent, but compliance. If a woman spreads her legs because she thinks her rapist will let her live if she does is not consenting, merely complying.

      • Wow…..big difference between the words consenting and complying! Good catch.

      • Excellent point. The prisoners only comply because if they cause a riot they will probably be killed. Consent my ass.

    • Libertarians are well intended morons which I can deal with . I’ve read the big boys and heck grew up on Robert Ringer and L. Neil Stephenson

      Its a stupid ideology that is unrealistic but everyone needs a hobby right?

      Its when they try to hijack the Dissident Right which in an authoritarian Right movement by the way, then I get pissed off.

      Libertarians are things of the Left, basically just Democrats with unlimited corporate tyranny

      In any case there is no such thing as spontaneous order in any human society anywhere of any race other than maybe immediate family or a small tribe. Maybe

      All human order beyond that flows from force, the more righteous the authority, the less force needed.

      The closest thing to a Libertarian society could have been argued to have been Victorian England but its was far from Libertarian , had many laws as did Medieval Iceland and the downstream effects of poverty and dysfunction on the commons were terrible in both cases

      People went with Leftism as much as it sucks because well contained it also works

      THis for example is why most people in the UK don’t want to abolish the NHS but fix it

      I’ll grant the the Libertarians a bit of slack on the issue of small arms, quite a few people want limits on weapon laws even in the UK but nobody other than a few spergy middle class White boys wants what Libertarians are selling

      When we do get bits of it like we do with porn, divorce on demand and legal dope, the results aren’t good.

      So please Libertarians, go away and find some other people to hang with. This isn’t your movement.

    • bilejones and friends. You suffer under a delusion about human nature. Not only that, but you are historically ignorant. Those on the secular side call it evolution and the survival of the fittest. Christians call it the fallen human nature of man. That is why societies without a strong central figure OR shared ideology are incredibly violent and corrupt. Unbridled human nature does not result in the spontaneous generation of peaceful, prosperous, ordered societies.

    • Ah yes, the appropriately handled “Bile Jones” reminds us that the libertarian is always at your knees or nuzzling your crotch like some ill-witted doggie.

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