Ruminations On The Audience

Whenever I watch or participate in a live stream, I’m always curious about who is watching or listening, specifically the numbers. I tuned in for some of Spencer’s new gig the other day and I saw that he had about thousand people listening. When I was on with Josh Neal we had about one hundred people. Spencer is obviously a bigger name and surely draws lots of of enemies to anything he does, in addition to supporters. Still, these are small numbers, compared to what we think happens with television and radio.

Now, in fairness, local radio often has just a few thousand people listening at any one time and some small TV channels have such small audiences they round to zero. There’s also the fact that live streams are a new and different medium. It’s like watching the rehearsal, rather than the finished product, but you can interact with the performers. That and you can watch it anytime, because live streams are recorded. If you look at the views of these things, 90% of the audience is for the recorded version, not the live feed.

The newness of live streams can be seen in the radio programs that have started putting their content on-line. Lots of talk radio people have set up cameras in their studio to simulcast their shows over Facebook or YouTube. They also provide a feed to services like iHeart and TuneIn. I listen to the legendary Howie Carr off YouTube, as he is in Boston and I’m in Lagos. I’ve never seen the viewer count on his YouTube feed exceed a hundred. Most of the time, it is below 50, yet he is the #14 talk radio guy in America.

Anyway, it got me thinking about the new audience for the new media. One thing I’ve learned after a year of doing a podcast is there is little overlap between my writing and my spoken word material. In fact, I have been approached by people at secret handshake meetings who only listen and have never bothered to read my blog. Lots of readers have told me they have no interest in the podcast, but they would read a transcript. John Derbyshire has been doing transcripts for years now, because most prefer it.

My guess is the audience for live streams is a completely different animal than the audience for writing and podcasting. There is a sense of urgency to the live stream, in that watching one from a year ago feels like reading an old newspaper. Most live streams are about current topics. Podcasts are often topical, but necessarily so. The people doing history and philosophy can expect an audience long after they have published their shows. That does not seem to be the case with the live stream.

A few weeks ago I was made aware of the fact a very famous person reads this blog on occasion. They don’t read regularly because they think I’m too wordy. That person wanted to know where I was on social media, because that person prefers Twitter over longer written material. This was a bit of a revelation, but it made perfect sense. While there is overlap between the audience for longer material and the audience for social media, there are many who do one but not the other. Live stream is the social media of video.

A few years ago I predicted Twitter’s problems. A large scale public platform is either open to everyone or it allows for self-segregation. Any attempt to moderate an open platform fails and this was known long before Twitter of Facebook. UseNet and message boards were the first social media and they learned that you either have segregation or you have the Wild West. Any effort to tone police or regulate blasphemy ends in disaster. The reason is the cost of regulation eventually outweighs the benefit.

What’s happening in social media is segregation, as people retreat to their own kind. The dissidents are the first to start building their own, but it will spread everywhere. Your social media platform will be your tribe. That or platforms like Facebook will simply acquiesce to reality. This has happened to some extent as there are private Facebook groups populated by alt-right people. Something similar will have to happen with Twitter or it will collapse under the weight of its own stupidity.

This brings me back to live streams and video is general. The live stream is a response to YouTube censorship. The hosts make sure to stay within the rules and they have the option to not post the recorded show if it could cause problems. The thing is though, even the most berserk member of the volunteer morality police is not sitting through three hours of Spencer talking about himself to find some blasphemy. The use of guarded language and the format allow for some self-segregation within the YouTube platform.

One final thought on all this. I mentioned that I’m not a very good live stream guest. Some people with small brow ridges will accuse me of false modesty, but I think there is a skill at being a host and a guest. This has always been true. A good host features the guest and keeps the guest from getting lost in the sound of his own voice. On the other hand, good guests have answers like a woman’s bathing suit. They are big enough to cover the material, but small enough to keep it interesting. They keep the show moving.

With these new formats, developing new skills to exploit the format is something we see all over now. The cut and paste bloggers, for example, have mostly faded away, as that has been displaced by social media. Those pithy comments are easily done on Facebook and Twitter. Content driven bloggers like J’Onquarious and Heartiste are the future of the format. The group blog is the new magazine and the solo blog is the new pamphleteer. Similar skills, but more interactive and responsive.

On the video side, that’s where things will be more interesting, as the format has no analog to the analog age. Live streams are not like TV. YouTube channels are not like a cable channel. PewDiePie is not Howard Stern. As Paul Ramsey talked about in his chat with Millennial Woes the other day, the internet video format continues to evolve as people try to figure out how to use it. Look at old videos of a guy like Molyneux and they are nothing like what he is doing today, because he evolved with the format.

That also means the audience will change too. Fifty years ago, movie stars never did television, other than chat shows to promote themselves. That may be how things unfold with video, at least initially. The live stream guys will be a special skill, while the recorded people, with high production values, will appeal to a different audience. Bloggers and writers that can be good guests will use appearances to promote their work. Otherwise, like the difference between book readers and TV watchers, there will be little overlap.

62 thoughts on “Ruminations On The Audience

  1. A couple of observations.

    The primary function of all the recording media is time shifting. It’s been a long time since live performance was the only source of news and entertainment and people haven’t organized their lives around fireside chats for 80 years.

    The spoken word is a remarkably inefficient method of data transmission. About 100-125 words per minute against 4-500+ via reading. I do most of my listening when driving when, I gather, reading is frowned upon.

    At his heyday, Lush Rimblows live radio audience was massively inflated by captive listeners: production workers in small to middle sized businesses whose owner/managers were obviously in favor of what he was selling. A big piece of that has now been exported and my guess is that his Mandarin isn’t up to snuff.

  2. I listened to about half that one you did with that kid. I quit because I had chores to do and a life, but if I had time I would have sat through it all. Every Friday my wife rolls her eyes because it’s time for the Power Hour podcast. Your opinions set her off from time to time and I have to pause the cast so she can ream me out for your dissident opinions and wrong-think. Your stuff spawns squabbles and debates between us and we spread them to our friends when we meet for coffees and social occasions. People in my circle that ordinarily wouldn’t speak about such things open up and do as I bring up stuff you have posted or discussed on your blog.

    Yesterday in The local Starbucks – the literal heart of yoga/femcnut/liberal/progressive spiritualism and political correctness in my town… we talked about Jews at my table. A big fat land whale with blue hair at the next table tried to stifle it but she was shushed by the others at the table who were listening to us openly discuss The Jewish Question. I threw a lot of the points out there that you and the fanboys here have brought up. There were 6 at my table and probably four other tables went silent to listen in. At STARBUCKS. This is the kind of place where guys like us typically keep our mouths shut. I passed your blog along as an excellent place for intelligent commentary that you can no longer find in the mass media. Sorry, no obvious converts were made… but we had that discussion inside the bastion of our enemies… and they actually shut up and listened… respectfully, no less.

    How big is your audience really, Z? I don’t think the numbers will tell you.

  3. While I visit your blog daily, I never listen to podcasts by you or anyone else. I find the format is too rigid. I am required to process information in the sequence specified by the podcast. As an older person, I prefer the random access ability of printed work, and I tend to read print nonlinearly, sometimes back to front.

  4. I’ve only been there for a few years, but it looks like /pol/ has gone through the same migration, from Ron Paul to what is is now – whatever you call it – white, national, fascists, hodgepodge, whatever…

    I don’t like admitting it, but I’m a late boomer (born in 1964) too. I’ve been libertarian/anarchist for a long time, now trying to update my bearings.

  5. “secret handshake meetings”
    Where does one find this, what is the group identity(Murica?), and how do you know it’s not a Fed meetup looking for retarded false flagging patsies?

  6. For most of our evolutionary history, our ancestors communicated in first-person only. And as such, a big part of the communication involved reading and interpreting facial expressions and body language (which frequently enabled the detection of danger and kept you alive). Today, we possess innate biases and self-defense mechanisms derived from these visual stimuli. In modern life, much communication occurs solely via aural or written means, and therefore defeats the application of these protective biases and proclivities. In short, video often works better because it re-enables the usefulness of these traits. Handshaking and hugging adds in a tactile stimuli which is a further enhancement, and most animal species include sense of smell to further supplement this information channel. Just sayin’.

    • I think what you say is true, but I am also very wary of the smooth talking con-man. I want things laid-out in text, and to have the time to think matters over, to evaluate, without distractions. Also, difficult material will require the individual study and ponder at whatever pace is necessary for him, proceeding step by step.

      You don’t want to end up with a closet full of plungers:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usm7uLCfxdo

  7. I read your blog everyday and download your podcasts. I’m a listener not a watcher so i rip the interviews to mp3.

  8. I write as I sit in the airport leaving for the Deep South and a bit of warmth. Listened to the “Roman History” podcast for the 3rd time driving in. Like our Host, I’m self employed in the Management business but in the rather friendly confines of NWPA, far from Lagos. As the Attorney said earlier, the hour length is about perfect for me and easy listening to the max. Read the blog daily along w/ AE and some Unz, not much else. One thing I can say, most of the upper level men I work with- technical managers, supervisors, plant managers and the like are either on our side of the river or wading across. Lot of red pilling out here. Enough? Time will tell….
    AP

    • I hope those who do real work get red pilled. People had better hope that there are enough honkeys left to keep the lights on and food on the store shelves when d’Shizzle, Pedro and the cat ladies try to run the country.

  9. At a general level, I think audience preference correlates with age. I’m a few years older than Z (a late Boomer) and online magazines and blogs were “new technology” to me. I tried social media, but it never made sense to me.

    I like podcasts now (my initial interest was via “Radio Derb” and I liked it best when he released the audio and the transcript at that same time so I could “read along” — how Boomerish!), and I listen to them during long walks, drives in the car, chores around the house, before bedtime, etc. (VERY Boomerish!) I have little desire to interact with the shows, e.g., via “super chats.” (Happy to offer a few shekels, just don’t have the urge to pipe up… “I like to watch. and listen…” CREEPY…obviously, I do like to post comments…)

    At any rate, as an analogy, my mother was a poor Irish child prodigy during the Depression, and she earned a mathematics degree on scholarship. She had a career (interrupted for two decades to raise a brood of kids) in statistics, etc. Today I see her struggling to work with email, the internet, Skype (which I have NEVER used), etc. Much of her struggle with these technologies is age (95+!), but a LOT of it is also her lifetime frame of reference. (I wonder what technologies will baffle me in 20-30 years…hmmm…I’m assuming I HAVE 20-30 years left before I join the choir invisible…hubris…)

    At any rate, as I age social media make me remind me of my mother: I simply don’t have a place for it in my life. I hear the TDS boys talk about “twitter wars” (or whatever they call them), but I can’t imagine myself getting involved… I LOVE to hear them talk about them, but I’m simply not up for the battle. I guess I’m more suited to be the old guy who cooks the stew over the open fire back at the base camp when they come back from the latest skirmish…

  10. Another thing you mention is the future belonging to the likes of Audacious Epigone. While I read his blog and enjoy the cold, hard facts angle his statistical analysis provides; I am surprised that Unz lets him have a marquee presence while remaining anonymous. I can’t think of another blogger or author who posts there using a pseudonym. If AE has opened a new door, then certainly Ron should be extending an invite to you without delay. And speaking of Ron, he can’t be your important reader because talk about long blog posts. My God, his take the prize for prolixity.

  11. Well, you may deprecate your video stream skills as you are your own best judge; but I am telling you that your vocal modulation, quick wit and mastery of historical and philosophical elements in the cultural expression of politics is superb. As a trial attorney, you are exactly the sort of expert witness I want to “edutain” the jury with deeper insights about something they probably think they already know. And too long? Please. Your writing is an easily digested essay whose flavor lingers long after the meal has ended. Your podcast is an ideal length. I know in advance that the investment of a mere hour of listening will be amply rewarded. By comparison, someone like The Distributist, who I think is intelligent and interesting, rarely posts anything less than an hour and s half long. Going in I know it will be a lot of exposition and sparse graphics. Sometimes I can’t be tempted to invest the time. His YT offerings do at least tend to have a perennial value that doesn’t go stale. Black Pigeon, in contrast, is almost always a short listen; so I do. But his shelf life is also short because his topics are aux currant. Finally, I loved the swim suit analogy about the role of the guest. I will definitely be borrowing that for future use.

  12. I don’t think I have ever watched a livestream for more than a few minutes, but I have watched plenty after the fact. Often they seem to be scheduled when I have other things going on but I can watch the replay later. They also tend to run on forever. Who wants to listen to Spencer for three hours?

    As for Gab, I just sent in my pro payment via billpay so they get a paper check. I hope Torba gets this figured out, he has gone further than anyone else I am aware of in circumventing the system so whatever disagreements anyone might have with him, he seems to be the only one out there right now that has the momentum to build a new payment platform. On the other hand, sooner or later someone will figure out which bank he is using to deposit these paper checks and go after them. Time is not on his side.

  13. Back to basics. There’s so much foundational theory about image, presentation, concept vs. perception you guys would do well to understand. Here’s a beginner’s reading list…

    Jerzy Grotowski, “Towards a Poor Theater”. Primal, do not miss.

    Gordon Craig, “On the Art of the Theatre”

    Antonin Artaud, “The Theater and Its Double” (a far better translation would be “The Theater and Its Evil Twin”)

    Bert Brecht, “Little Exercise for the Theater/Short Organon for the Theater” (or more generally, Brecht’s theoretical writings as a whole, often compiled in books called things like “Brecht on Theater” and suchlike). Note that after his electrifying early work, most of Brecht’s Communist-inspired theater was stultifyingly boring, claustrophobic, and stupid. But his understanding of image and gesture and framing was brilliant. Listen to what he says about Shaw and Wedekind. Brecht and Fritz Lang, without doing it on purpose, helped cause the NSDAP. Not that that’s a good thing, but like they say, Nothing succeeds like success.

    George Bernard Shaw, “Arms and the Man,” “Major Barbara”. Don’t skip the prefaces. With Shaw, NEVER skip the prefaces.

    Oscar Wilde, “The Decay of Lying,” “The Selfish Giant and other Fairy Tales,” “The Importance of Being Ernest”.

    That’s the undergrad syllabus. Get to work, fuckos.

  14. For this kind of online content? 10,000 listeners is a respectable number. Blogs aren’t as influential as they were pre Twatter, but I think they are the best format for ideas and content delivery like this. Who wants to sit through an hour? Who has the time? A reader can break up a long read into parts, bookmarks. How many prople are at this level of understanding, without follow up learning? Few. I agree with Tyler Cowen’s recommendation; more accessibility when it comes to delivering complexity. Race realism and the JQ are still hard for townie Cons to swallow. They think it’s mean. They outright reject mean. Anyway, excellent interview.

  15. Well, I try to neither be all negative or all a$$-kissing but simply say whatever thoughts posts and podcasts here produce in me. But, I genuinely enjoy this blog and it actually stays interesting. I couldnt do a quarter as good a job and Im not gonna sit here and say ‘you really should be a better guest and such and such’ coz Id probably be an eternally talking mess on such a show. And that’s all the sugar I have to hand out today lol

    • Yeah, FZ wants to hear bad guests, go on the national review podcast. Some of those people are incoherent a motor that Rambo, they don’t complete thoughts. Sometimes I have to just turn it off. And we’re talking to your professors and people are supposed to brains.

  16. Hey what is the book going to be about?

    My mom asks for transcripts too. Some people are not good at listening. It’s actually a skill that needs developing. I can remember many years ago when I started audiobooks, I found it uncomfortable and difficult. Now sometimes I can’t recall whether I read a particular thing or heard the lecture or audiobook! It’s funneled Into some kind of final common pathway.

    Podcasts:

    1. Radioderb and zman: will listens as soon as they appear, sometimes more than once and in car

    2. Radio renaissance: before sleep but reliably serviceable

    3. Countercurrents: often good, but sporadic, dependent on guest, before sleep

    4. Kunstler cast: variable, dependent on guest, once a month

    5. National review: wide choice, very short, will listen to books, when exhaust all others

    6. Arktos, red ice: sometimes good, dependent upon guest/topic; josh Neal is a new guy I will exhaust before I have a place in the firmament for him

    • See Black Pigeon on Youtube. Great stuff, though he occasionally pulls his punches just when it gets interesting.

  17. If anyone cares, this is what I consume in the way of media: YouTube videos of Joe Rogan and Dave Rubin when they have worthwhile guests; anything Jordan Peterson puts out; some Glenn Beck, Bill O’Reilly and Ann Coulter on YouTube audio; Scott Adams’ Periscopes; favorite blogs are Heartiste, Steve Sailer and Z-man. I also like cars, so I read a few auto blogs and watch some YouTube car reviews. And NHL hockey. That’s about it.

  18. Never cared for the podcast either until having to make some long trips driving out of town and then it is a good way to pass the time..

    Plus voice has a lot to do with it too. I like Scott Adams ,enjoy the comic strip and his political leanings, but that voice ! ugh

    • The problem with Scott Adams is that he uses a lot of rhetorical tricks, including repetition, to give his Periscope audience an opportunity to respond. He is a big-time re-Tweeter, a format I abhor and shun. It makes Adams very reactive to his audience and thus long-winded. This is likely due to his persuasion shtick. I’ve taken to reviewing his notes in the YT archive of the livecast. If there isn’t a sufficient hook, I take a pass on it.

    • I often wonder whether the timbre of his voice was altered after he recovered from the (physical? psychological?) disorder that left him mute for several years.

  19. > My guess is the audience for live streams is a completely different animal than the audience for writing and podcasting.

    Definitely. I would guess that many readers are like myself: pretty busy most of the time with maybe 15-30 minutes, a couple of times a day, to catch up on the latest content from as many as 5-10 different sources. We’re not ADD, but just don’t have time for an hour-long podcast, let alone a 3-hour livestream, and we know we can get the exact same information in 5 minutes of reading.

    People who watch and comment on live streams are generally looking for something else. Entertainment, attention, positive reinforcement, background noise, or just killing time. They are analogous, as you say, to TV watchers. They’re more personality-driven than content-driven. Owen Benjamin’s fans clearly care about Owen Benjamin, not his jokes. Same for (ugh) Jordan Peterson’s fans, most of whom have never even read any of his written content.

    The 1-hour podcast is probably somewhere in the middle. It’ll still be dominated by the TV demographic but at least it’s digestible during a long commute or lunch break. I don’t, because it’s still much faster to read, but I could imagine doing it under different circumstances. When it comes to live streams, though, I don’t think I could ever imagine myself slogging through the 3 hours that could be edited down to 20 minutes with no real loss of fidelity. Can’t see how that would attract anything other than a NEET audience.

  20. From my own preferences, I prefer the written word, not only for blogs but in online news(when checking out the clickbait) and magazines. Same with product reviews.
    Reason: it’s easier on data rates and bandwidth first and foremost, and renders way faster on my devices. Second is that video, when concerned with MSM, is near useless information-wise.

    • Unwashed Mass: I’m with you in my preference for the written word. Video and podcasts are just too slow and linear, and, therefore, restrictive. Plus, the poor signal-to-noise ratio of video and podcasts results in wasted time: too much time spent with introductions, setting the background, explaining context, etc., and then, there’s the inefficiency of speech; the “uhs” and “umms” and “you knows,” and chatter. When reading, I can skim through all the noise, and in a non-linear fashion.

  21. I don’t listen to podcasts at all. I read while listening to music. I used to listen to Derb’s podcasts years ago until he started producing (or I discovered) the transcripts.

  22. Oddly enough, this made me wonder about the size of your brow ridge, ZMan. Large or small? Rumor has it the trend is toward small.

  23. I suppose that the “rawness” of dissident/alt right productions may be a secret part of the appeal. The “mainstream” media is just so dishonest, slimy, doublespeaking, and gaslighting, that when you see just one smart, likable guy like RamZPaul turn on his camera and speak plain truths in plain language–with humor to boot–it’s exceptionally refreshing. We’re just so sick of media lying.

    And YET, I think our guys would still benefit enormously from basic production values. I don’t mean the ridiculous space-station sets of globohomo outfits like CNN, the BBC, and NBC (which are a visual symbol of their undeserved authority.) Just basic attention to echo-reduction, lighting, and camera quality and placement would go a long way.

    I was involved in recording some materials ancillary to an academic publishing project, and with some basic internet research and under $1,000, we set up a nice-looking, no-echo set for sound and video. Come on, guys, basics, basics!

    • Agreed on the production quality. I have my podcast about right in terms of production quality. I want it to be causal, but not primitive. I used YouTube videos to learn how to clean up the problems and make for a tight result.

      One problem the live stream guys have is Google Hangouts and Skype are buggy as hell. Josh and I were having some weird feedback issue that was a Google issue. I’ve run into this in business settings using Skype for conference calls. I dropped it for tat reason and just use GTM.

      One thing Gab is working on a robust video streaming service. I know most streamers and podcasters in our thing would pay for a robust service that cannot be shut down by the tech giants. If I could stream from Gab through my site, I’d try my hand at hosting a weekly live show. Imagine every Friday night, “Drinking With The Z-Man”

      • Not to be a downer, but I don’t think you should hold your breath on Gab. I’ve seen no evidence that their guys have the infrastructure, the technical expertise, or the work ethic necessary to build something that even Google couldn’t get quite right.

        Video is *hard*, and live video is hard-squared. People get tricked by how easy it is to toss a video tag pointing to an AVI file on a web page somewhere, but that’s not even a fraction of 1% of what it takes to build a half-decent streaming service like YouTube.

        • Gab will be fine. There are toxic idiots wishing them ill, but wishing does no make it so. Torba has a good team and he has learned some hard lessons, but he is a believer and committed. He’s a great asset.

          • I wasn’t implying that Gab itself was disappearing, but I don’t think the average non-technical person understands the gap between what they’re doing now and what it would take to have a stable, scalable and commercially-viable video service.

            Maybe he can find a way to glom onto bitchute or something, but doing it from scratch? Not happening.

          • Bitchute is a not a real thing. I’ve never been a fan of P2P for anything other than underground activity. Gab has the video hosting solved. They have the livestream technology. They just have other priorities at the moment. His first task is getting his new payment processor set up. I put him in touch with someone on that front.

            What Torba learned the hard way is you can’t build your platform using other people’s technology. If we were a land of laws, then sure, he could use services like Stripe and Pusher. He is now back filling some of these problems. Once payment processing is up, then he can launch his alternative to Patreon and then things like video services.

            I think the future of video on-line will be services that charge the creator for hosting. The creator then monetizes through donations, crowd funding, PPV services, etc. YouTube is not a viable business model. Google subsidizes it so they could dominate the market and keep competitors out of the space. In the end, that could only work if they kept the women out of it and that did not happen.

          • Oh, you’re preaching to the choir re: YouTube. Their “business model” is predatory pricing, pure and simple.

            I don’t think Gab has any kind of livestreaming technology, though, they just threw something together with WebRTC. I’m almost positive they don’t have adaptive streaming. Can you even re-watch livestreams yet?

          • My understanding is that previous attempts to create alternative pay processors have ended up getting deplatformed by some of the major credit card companies, most notoriously MasterCard. That was reportedly the death of Hatreon. How has Torba figured out how to work around that?

      • Being married with 2 children, it would be the first time in 12+ years that I would be looking forward to Friday Nights again!

  24. You are definitely in the group of content-drive bloggers, which is precisely why your blog is worth reading every day.

    As a busy professional, I rarely have an open hour to dedicate to listening to a podcast during the day. However, as a modest insomniac I frequently listen to your podcasts in the middle of the night.

    Your host during the show spent way, way too much time pontificating on his own experiences, analysis, and opinion. He really should spend more time listening to experienced, skilled interview show hosts. Terry Gross is an absolutely insufferable liberal snob, but she’s an extremely skilled interview host. He could learn a lot by listening to her shows.

    Between your blog and your podcasts you have revealed more than enough personal detail to be identified and outed, whereupon you will likely be fired from your current job and rendered unemployable. Do you have a plan B?

    • I work for myself and my clients don’t care if I am murdering girls scouts in my free time. That and the effort it takes to demonize someone like me is more than the loons are willing to invest. If you are on social media posting epithets and praising Hitler, you are low hanging fruit. A good rule of life is never be low hanging fruit.

    • Blogs for mental breaks in my office, home or city. Podcasts for planes, gym, doing household stuff that requires nothing but lizard brain to do.

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