Regulating The Public Space

There are few things good about aging, but one of those benefits is you start seeing how history often repeats itself. There is nothing new under the sun, but when you are young most everything is new to you. When you get old, you have experienced enough to begin noticing the repeats of things you saw in your youth. For example, those old enough to remember the early the days of the internet, probably recognize what’s happening with the tech giants trying to regulate the public space.

By early days, I’m not talking about the iPhone 4 days. I’m talking about the Windows 3.1 days, when the internet was for weirdos, who knew how modems worked and liked tricking the phone company for free long distance. It was when hobbyists assembled their own computers It was when NewEgg was called Egghead and operated in shopping centers. That was before the phrase “social media” existed, but there was still plenty of social media and plenty of people on it, just smarter people.

Usenet and bulletin board systems served the same role as Twitter and Facebook, without the cute names and billionaires trying to control the platforms. Like the big social media platforms, they started with the same general idea. They would be open forums for people to debate and argue. The internet was going to be free from the censorship of the old media and free from government control. The same things people say about bitcoin today were said about the internet in the olden thymes.

What happened to those first public forums and those that succeeded them is a good lesson for understanding what is happening to the big social media platforms. Usenet, for example, started as an open platform for anyone with internet access. It did not take long for jerks and troublemakers to arrive. Soon, the squabbling and fighting fractured the community into separate channels. In short order, Usenet became a million little havens for like-minded people to talk about their thing in semi-private.

Bulletin boards followed a similar path. Their successor, the message board also followed a similar arc. The first boards for college sports, for example, soon turned into free-for-alls and shattered into hundreds of small, private boards. Unlike Usenet, the creators of these boards initially tried to regulate the content by having moderators ban trouble makers and people trolling for attention. That just encouraged the trouble makers to find clever ways around the rules, in order to disrupt the communities.

What was discovered in those early efforts of public forums is that the public is pretty awful and needs to be regulated. You just can’t let everyone into a public forum and have them say what they wish. On the other hand, the cost of regulating who enters and what is said is prohibitive. The more you regulate the forum, the cleverer the troublemakers get at disruption. This sets off an increasingly costly game of cat and mouse between the moderators and the people seeking to disrupt the forum.

The solution to the problem was the oldest of solutions. Peaceful separation allowed everyone to have a forum, but it reduced the incentives for the disruptive. Going into the forum of a rival group, for example, and posting a bunch of troll-bait, did not provide the same dopamine rush to the troll as it did on a public forum. There was no one around to see it and cheer it. It was like being a graffiti artist in a blind community. These trolling efforts were quietly removed and the community could easily ignore them.

That is what will happen with the big social media hubs. Twitter is the first that will splinter into a million separate channels, as it is the most public. Gab has weathered the assaults and now provides a home for dissidents. Telegram is now becoming the favorite tool for young people creating small communities. Others are working on alternatives for other tribes, looking for a place on-line both free of censorship and the sorts of people who just seek to disrupt. This is a repeat of the message board phenomenon.

YouTube and Facebook are a bit different. Facebook already has the ability to let users self-segregate within the forum. That solves the trolling a bit, but the company is run by the sorts of people who liked being moderators on chat boards in the old days. They can’t help but meddle in the discourse of others, even those in private groups on the platform. Given the demographics of the platform, it will probably collapse at some point as people realize its user base is old people, robots and gullible advertisers.

YouTube is the one to watch. As server capacity outstrips demand, the cost of hosting video will keep dropping. There are services popping up as alternatives to YouTube, with some starting as commercial enterprises. This service lets you create a branded channel that can be distributed on a variety of platforms. If you have talent and can hold an audience, the days of relying on YouTube are numbered. Since YouTube has never made money, it’s hard to see a future for the service as currently constructed.

None of this is to say that the tech oligopolies will come to their senses and stop trying to suppress speech on-line. In all probability, they will exhaust themselves trying to stamp out dissent, which means things will get much worse. Apple, for example, is now censoring speech within chat programs like Telegram. Microsoft is promising to moderate speech over Skype. The people behind these efforts are driven by hatred and self-loathing, so they lie awake at night thinking about this stuff.

The trouble is, it is expensive. The latest YouTube banning probably cost the company $10 million dollars to organize. It’s pretty clear they invested a lot of manpower in reviewing specific videos. The return on that investment was mostly bad press and greater awareness by regulators that there is a problem. That’s a lesson from the old days too. No matter how right they were to regulate users, the forum moderators were always looked upon unfavorably. They were the prison guards of the system.

That last bit is probably key. A decade ago, Apple was a cool brand run by an equally cool genius who liked wearing black turtlenecks. Now it is seen as a Chinese electronics company run by an angry homosexual. Similarly, YouTube used to be a place where young people could express themselves. Now it’s where old Jewish women yell at young people for using naughty language.With every censorship effort, the reputation of the oligopolies declines. Silicon Valley is now the universal villain.

The point of all this is not that libertarians are right that the market will magically sort out the problem for us. All of this could have been avoided if the government had done its job and cracked down on these oligopolies a long time ago. The natural disaggregation of the public space will not happen without help from the state either. It’s that wide open public forums cannot last. It was tried decades ago by smarter people and a much smarter user base. Eventually, peaceful separation became the only alternative.

If you like living off the sweat of others, then ignore the following. On the other hand, if you care about your community and want to support those working hard on your behalf, consider supporting my work by donating the price of a beer or a cup of coffee at Starbucks. Five bucks a month is not a lot to ask. Unlike those mega-corporations, I will not use your money to destroy your family and community. Or, you can send money to me at: P.O. Box 432 Cockeysville, MD 21030-0432.

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Wolf Barney
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Wolf Barney

A peaceful separation? That phrase sure seems to come up a lot lately.

Member
Ostei Kozelskii

You took the words right off of my keyboard. The Balkanization of digital media, as Zman describes it, looks like a microcosm and a paradigm for humanity.

A.B Prosper
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A.B Prosper

Its stage 3 in the 5 stages of grief that ” I have to go to war or be killed or enslaved because cultural Marxists and globalists fucked my nation.” #1denial. very few people are still stuck at this stage #2 anger. We have a lot of that #3 bargaining. hey maybe we can have a peaceful separation #4 depression. black pills ahoy #5 acceptance. better check my preps and my accountability lists Most people on the Right are still at 2 with a fair amount at #3 and #4 and avery few at #5 When enough reach 5 and… Read more »

MemeWarVet
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MemeWarVet

To our opponents, “peaceful separation” means us in shallow graves. Never forget that.

Member

>All of this could have been avoided if the government had done its job and cracked down on these oligopolies a long time ago.

But why? Anything the government does sets a PERMANENT precedent (until collapse). Is it worth setting permanent precedents just because a lame silicon valley revenge-of-the-nerds culture ran rampant from 2014-2021?

MemeWarVet
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MemeWarVet

“If you see a Libertarian, Punch him. He’ll know why.”

Member

I’m betting I can draw before your punch is ready to let fly, little girl.

MemeWarVet
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MemeWarVet

Anyone trying to push Libertardianism picked the wrong comments section to do it in

A.B Prosper
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A.B Prosper

You pull a gun on someone who is punching you and it’s a felony in many states . Proportional force it’s the law

Compsci
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Compsci

A.B., there are exceptions of course—and valid ones. I’m pushing 70 and are of light build, so I’m required to defend myself with my body (what still’s working) when a 6’1” muscular meat bag begins to pummel me? Not here, not most anywhere. A codified defense is of course “a reasonable fear of death, or grave bodily injury” for use/display of a deadly weapon (my side arm). That one goes from fist a cuffs to lethality in one step is of course a factor to be considered in assessing guilt, but the defense as stated above is valid and indeed… Read more »

A.B Prosper
Guest
A.B Prosper

Of course, just what i said proportional force .

Member

I am an incredibly persuasive speaker and charismatic man, and will have no difficulty convincing a jury that it was proportional force. 🙂

A.B Prosper
Guest
A.B Prosper

Maybe.

A gunslinger mentality is a great way to get dead or seriously hurt.

Also best hope that whoever you just murdered doesn’t have outlaw kin.

In reality though the kind of people liable to punch you over politics are groups like Antifa who often have tacit backing of the State

You may be in trial in some Lefty town and you can ask the guy in Charlottesville how that went for him.

A Postcard from the Volcano
Guest

So, in other words, (in your own words, really) in defense of libertarianism you’re willing to shoot unarmed little girlls. Pre-emptively.

Good to know.

Member

>So, in other words, (in your own words, really) in defense of libertarianism you’re willing to shoot unarmed little girlls. Pre-emptively.

There’s thousands of us. All looking at you.

A.B Prosper
Guest
A.B Prosper

There is millions of us . I like those odds. In any case, Libertarians won’t get a say in things no matter who is in charge. The Left is highly authoritarian and only tolerates corporate action when its woke or in their interest. If Leftists were kicked off YouTube there would be a law, yesterday As for the Dissident Right, we know all your tricks. Many of us came from your end of the field You have a mostly Libertarian society now and it sucks. No one s going to let you double down on that. The Dissident Right doesn’t… Read more »

Member

Out of curiosity, what is the “libertarian threshold” here? The only comment I made was, roughly, “it will be unwise to centralize MORE power for left wingers to eventually wield, just because of a brief problem that outraged you for less than a decade back in the 2010’s.” Have you all become such philosophical Eloi that this is an outrageous potential outcome? See, while you see me as a libertarian (I’m not), I see you as neocons, forging eternal patriot acts to correct 2001’s problems, and making 2020’s people live with it. Anyway, back to the subject: We can shoot… Read more »

Lars Emillson
Guest

“You have a mostly Libertarian society now…”

What an amazing assertion. There is nothing remotely libertarian about the ongoing incest between big corp and bloated gov, or the debt-based jewbuck cabal, or the gun-backed tax, property confiscation, and redistribution racket. or corrupt militarized law enforcement, or endless war mongering abroad, or institutionalized anti-White persecution, etc.

If our society were actually libertarian-leaning, tyrannical behemoths like Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube would long since have have been dissected under anti-trust legislation.

A.B Prosper
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A.B Prosper

I’ve never met a Libertarian that believes in anti trust legislation of any kind. You might be the first. Now in fairness not having corporate subsidies reduces big corporations somewhat but no Libertarian I’ve met is opposed to foreign trade cheap labor or has a real plan to do with things like dumping to destroy markets either .These things cause endless problems Most are basically money obsessed anarchists who like big corporations. That said our society doesn’t need a lot of things like gay marriage (the least harmful of all of these) weed, vagrancy and porn that are now legal… Read more »

The Last Stand
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The Last Stand

Whatever is good for our people is our only principle. If that means nationalizing, regulating, or breaking up corporations so be it.

Member

Well– now, I think what you have in that is a trust problem. In that– who you gonna trust to do this? I don’t trust you. I don’t trust my neighbors and my society, who elected a foreign invader as president a mere ten years ago. I don’t trust my fellow citizens who were okay with making the purchase of a product from a private company (health insurance) a condition of citizenship. Fuck everyone. For Big Companies, though, I take a pragmatic solution: Socialists have to live by socialist rules. So for these big companies that get in bed with… Read more »

Member
Ostei Kozelskii

Government regulation isn’t the same thing as socialism.

Member

It’s still a trust issue– and the USA is no longer a high trust society, and is too mixed now to ever be again.

Member
Ostei Kozelskii

Well, I agree with that. And that’s why secession is the only solution, I’m afraid. All conversation that doesn’t entertain that reality is just window-dressing.

A.B Prosper
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A.B Prosper

Join or die. Not exactly a new slogan but an apt one I think.

In any case Libertarianism is a dead letter. The future will be regulated for the common good, the only question is whose vision of the common good will it be either the Left or the Dissident/New Right

Member

There’s no “common good” with this much diversity. Are we going with the common good that allows Muslim men to rape kaffir women who are dressed provocatively? Or the common good that allows panicked females to destroy the livelihood of any male whose gaze lingers on her too long? Maybe the common good that allows urban youth to simply take your car radio because you neglected to guard it for an hour while you ran into a restaurant? You have several decades of solving the diversity problem before you need to turn your mind to the common good problem. And… Read more »

A.B Prosper
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A.B Prosper

The US will never be a high trust society again no matter what the racial dynamic. People aren’t religious enough In any case the US is too developed to tolerate the high levels of our historical grifting Left or Right it is going to be a lot more regulated just to make sure people have enough income to raise a proper family and stable jobs if we don’t do this, we won’t have babies, And note after it fell, the USSR went into population freefall and thus far not a single nation has ever recovered Hungary might but Poland’s baby… Read more »

LineIntheSand
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LineIntheSand

You understand that there are two paths before traditional whites: minimize diversity or libertarianism.

Libertarianism fails because of the inherent tribalism on non-whites. For many non-whites, ethnocentrism often is more powerful than the deracinated pursuit of individual advantage. Non-whites, as a group, want to crush whitey and there is no reason to believe this will change.

If libertarianism fails then we must pursue the other path, as difficult and unlikely as it is.

A.B Prosper
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A.B Prosper

Libertarianism would only work in a society where everyone was White and middle class or up and is a Libertarian themself.

In reality it will be voted out of existence by non Whites and will just mean Whites have to pay for spoils for everyone else.

Grab the spoils or be screwed. Truth is there are no cuck options, no retreat options , no Benedict option.
Fight for your people or else.

Right now, the Fight is political and economic but its not going to stay that way forever.

The net result is simply Join or Die

Lars Emillson
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Lars Emillson

“Libertarianism fails…” Libetarianism explicity supports feedom of association or disassociation for any reason. No justiciation to higher authority needed, Libertarianism explicity supports the right of self-defense with whatever level of physical force is required. These are core principles. A secession from the larger, diversity-ridden polity is perfectly consistent with these principles. This includes the formation and defense of a tribe, or any other type of orgainzation, based on race or ethnicity. But then, how White men choose to organize – whether libertarian, fascist, socialist, republic, monarchic, oligarchic – is not really the issue. No matter what shape our eventual collective… Read more »

A.B Prosper
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A.B Prosper

This will work great till woke people get you deplatormed from all banking , nearly all shopping and and unemployable

They are already trying to do this to gun companies claing freedom of association.

So no. Its bullshit

Rule or be ruled.

Exile
Guest
Exile

Precedent only matters to the extent the present decision-makers respect the precedent on principal or its merits. If precedent had the mystical force process-honks rely on to give slippery slope arguments validity, the Warren Court would have been impeached en banc and White cultural hegemony would reign unchallenged. You can’t beat a results-first opposition with a rule of law defense. Start thinking about what you’d like to achieve not whether the rules permit it.

Member

Government did do its job. The primary job of government is self preservation. Government did nothing that would draw criticism from powerful controllers of up and coming media.
Job done,

The Last Stand
Guest
The Last Stand

This raises a question. Censorship is not an effective longterm tactic to fight dangerous ideas. The concept of free speech is its own Achilles heel. What works?

Exile
Guest
Exile

Balance. A little censorship but not too much. Driving at 0 gets you nowhere, driving at 200 gets you killed. Ideologues think in binary terms. Practical thinkers see those false dichotomies as positions on a continuum. Deciding where to reasonably dig in on a slippery slope is easier than coming up with a whole new approach, if one even exists. Public speech will always be censored and the debate will always hinge on how and how much.

Member
Ostei Kozelskii

Additionally, discourse within homogeneous communities requires less censorship. America is extremely diverse, and as diversity grows, so does censorship. Diversity causes everything it touches to wither and die.

Compsci
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Compsci

Ostei, are you sure? I see where you are going, but there are ethnic communities, religious communities, etc. Hard to imagine that rules of discourse, even within such homogeneous communities, won’t run a broad spectrum—from censorious to open—which would get us back to where we are now, calls from competing groups to restrict others’ expression (or do we just disconnect from each other as well?).

A.B Prosper
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A.B Prosper

I don’t think so there was almost no corporate or state censorship five years ago yet equally high levels of diversity

The US when it was 90% White had heavy use of obscenity laws and vice squads

Calsdad
Guest
Calsdad

Driving 200mph does not get you killed. It only increases your chances of getting killed. I pretty much speed each and every single time I have gotten on the highway – traffic willing. And I have been doing it for more than 35 years. I can drive in rush hour traffic with a highway full of similarly minded people at 80mph – with everybody’s car hanging off the bumper of the guy in front of him – and everything works just fine. On the other hand I know people (women and Asian drivers) – who can’t seem to drive down… Read more »

Range Front Fault
Guest
Range Front Fault

Dude…you’re killing me! Years ago living on Oahu, Hawaiian friends would call it “Driving While Asian!” They used to laugh and say, “If all you see is a set of eyesballs barely above the dashboard, watch out.”
As for driving-while-woman, gave up bike riding because I kept somehow aiming for the pylons in the middle of the bikepath. Sigh….

Calsdad
Guest
Calsdad

One of the cities near me filled up with Vietnamese and Cambodian refugees in the late 70’s and early 80’s.

There was an awful lot of “Driving while Asian” going on in that city during that time.

They seem to have gotten better over the years though.

Member
Ostei Kozelskii

Even Danny Ongais was a human shunt…

3g4me
Guest
3g4me

Carlsdad – sounds like you drive like me – and I am female, albeit a unicorn. The problem is not merely Vo Chang and a majority of women (although they are a large part of it). The problem is that Most People Are Idiots – even most White people. Sure, get rid of diversity and you can have the autobahn with no speed limit (God, I loved driving on the autobahn). But when I drove on the Italian highways I was terrified going merely 85mph – because the other drivers were nuts! tl;dr: As Zman said,a total lack of rules/control… Read more »

Member

How about… if you think censorship is okay, you agree to be censored. I.E. Alinsky’s make them live up to their own ideals. Treat a socialist by socialist rules, treat a freedom guy by freedom guy rules.

So under these rules, YouTube is subject to government regulation, as much as we can pile on. Gab is not.

The left has never had to live under their own system. They always retreat under the muh freedom umbrella when anyone punches back. We need to take that sanctuary away from them, but leave it for decent people.

Calsdad
Guest
Calsdad

I’ve proposed that system before – it drove the normie cons nuts.

But I still think it would be a good way to make for a separation.

You want a welfare state? Then guess what you have to pay for it.

You want a warfare state? Your ass just got drafted – AND you’re going to get taxed to death to pay for it all.

Companies full of white guys won’t be forced to accept “diversity”.

This is exactly what Alinsky said: make them live up to their own rules.

Screwtape
Guest
Screwtape

Truth wants out and all that. Overt Censorship need only work long enough to provide cover for the rest of the social engineering to take hold. Then its all Huxley, the sheeple are too overwhelmed, distracted, and satiated to care. The seeds of badthoughts find no fertile ground. Then censorship need only be overt in cases where self-censorship and the other conditioned mechanisms are failing. In current year, the online censorship is overt and heavy-handed because the technology got too far ahead of the forces at work in meatspace. The problem of anonymity and decentralization allow for badthinkers to strike… Read more »

A.B Prosper
Guest
A.B Prosper

In the past, most porn was illegal and any speech or especially art and writing directed at minors was regulated both for good reason. TV was heavily regulated until quite recently as was radio and many private or public venues had morals clauses For that matter homosexual conduct was illegal as was sex outside wedlock also for good reason All of these anti freedom laws existed to slow the propagation of harmful behaviors and ideas. Most likely if there is a Dissident or New Right state it will be pretty authoritarian on some topic for several decades as an interregnum… Read more »

Glenfilthie
Guest
Glenfilthie

Do you moderate here at all, Z?

Yours is about the only internet meeting place I’ve seen that doesn’t seem to have any trolls. I think the only one I have seen is Tiny Dink or whatever his alias de jour is. Another odd thing about this site is that the posters all seem to talk TO each other, rather than past or at each other. The flame wars of the old message boards and most blogs are curiously absent… and it is most refreshing.

Member

I don’t understand tiny duck. Because when he chooses another name it almost always has the initials TD so it’s easily identifiable so why even bother to change the name? And he’s everywhere. Is it the same person or a bunch of people using the same handle?
I’ve actually seen that with a couple posters here where they post a bunch of personal attacks that make them seem like they’re off their meds and the next day it’s a totally different tone which makes me think it’s more than one person on the same name.
Its baffling to me

Member
Ostei Kozelskii

There always has to be at least one 8-ball in the rack.

james wilson
Member

You can’t be sure Tiny isn’t a right wing troll. He’s invariably tossing softballs to be hit out of the park. If not, he’s incompetent. Your choice.

Member

Agree.
Whichever, he’s not great at it.

Member
Ostei Kozelskii

This is really a great place. I wish I had joined much earlier.

Pimpkin\'s nephew
Guest
Pimpkin\'s nephew

Agreed. My gosh, casting one’s mind back to the days when reading the NRO blog, or the Belmont Club, or Instapundit, belonged to everyday life, like taking a shower or feeding the pets. It’s like my car ran out of gas on a country road and I had no choice but walk through green fields, to rediscover the smell and color of truth.

And the commenters, well, a long and energetic thread can be as entertaining and instructive as a classic Russian novel.

I still need to send my unmarked twenty to the PO Box for Z-man.

A B
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A B

You mention Fernandez.

Do you have the impression he’s lost the pop off the fastball since joining PJM? It felt like he was producing good, deep stuff near daily. Now, seems rare.

Pimpkin\'s nephew
Guest
Pimpkin\'s nephew

Agreed. He was my “Z man” back in the day. I even bought one of his e-books. But Trump’s election disoriented him, and the last time I checked in, his fastball had indeed lost its pop.

Pimpkin\'s nephew
Guest
Pimpkin\'s nephew

Plus PJM is, or was (haven’t checked it lately) an annoying, insulting site designed by incompetent dickheads, pardon my anglo-saxon.

Compsci
Guest
Compsci

As I’ve said before, the comments are at least 50% of my learning/benefit from this group. Z-man is of course the other 50%. Can’t have one without the other. But I don’t think the comment section formed from some statistical anomaly. Z-man puts thought into his musings and writes about such at a high level. He’s not (IMO) cursing the darkness, but in a long process of lighting a candle. This piques interest and attracts a certain audience and that inevitably forms the type of comment community Glen remarks upon.

Calsdad
Guest
Calsdad

I really think this whole discussion is missing a very vital piece of the puzzle: beatings. Going back probably 17 years ago now – I got into big arguments with the Linux tech nerds at the job I had about how to properly handle the massive increase in email spam that was happening at the time. They kept talking around all sorts of technical solutions to the issue – but most of these guys were Unix geeks going all the way back to the 80’s – so they were exactly those guys you talked about who populated Usenet. I kept… Read more »

Outdoorspro
Guest
Outdoorspro

I completely agree that the lack of immediate and often painful repercussions has had a seriously negative effect on our society, both online and off. The problems with the offline part are social media and legal. Today, if someone receives a well-deserved beating, it most likely will be recorded, carefully edited to portray the ‘beater’ in the most negative way possible, then auto-played constantly. This will be followed by investigations, the ‘beater’ getting fired, and lawsuits. Sort of takes the incentive away from being civilization’s enforcer and gives the incentive to the ill-mannered dick. My liberal Canadian wife (BIRM) likes… Read more »

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

Men always had two choices when confronted by another. Fight it out or walk away. Just like the animals do in the wild. Our feminized culture has mostly eliminated all that, including on-line. Create an environment where posting things can cause a couple of very angry people to show up at your door uninvited, and a bunch of this stuff would go away.

King Tut
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King Tut

“Create an environment where posting things can cause a couple of very angry people to show up at your door uninvited…” We already have that; they are called Antifa.

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

Yup, Antifa. They are sort of a hired Mexican Cartel hit team, sent out by others to do their bidding. They do the heavy lifting because the soy boys aren’t willing to face their enemies directly, and they have to hide behind the coattails of others. Bezos might be physically capable of settling matters directly and personally, one on one. But Zuckerberg or Eric Schmidt? Big LOLs. The Zuck sends Sandberg out to fight his girlie slap fights for him now. Personal honor and face-to-face is so yesterday. The laws are also set to discourage such settling of scores. Go… Read more »

The Last Stand
Guest
The Last Stand

Who exactly are Antifa though? Judging by remarks made by some people they are hired Soros goons. Others indicate that they are bored college kids radicalized by professors.

The tactics for dealing with the one group do not necessarily apply to the other and it would be helpful to know what is behind those black ninja suits.

Member
Ostei Kozelskii

Oh how I wish a pack of Antifa would show up at my door. Give me a much needed opportunity to let off some steam.

Calsdad
Guest
Calsdad

It probably took me until my 20’s to get there , but I have grown to hate that “violence is never the answer” thing. When I hear people say that , I ask them this: “What is the universal language ?” Typically, they’ll totally fall into the trap and say “Love”. That’s when I get to say : ” you’re completely wrong. The universal language is PAIN. Literally EVERY living thing understands it. I can’t reason with a shark that just grabbed hold of my leg – but I can punch it in the head until it lets go. I… Read more »

The Last Stand
Guest
The Last Stand

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedom.”
(Starshiptroopers, by Robert Heinlein)

Exile
Guest
Exile

This is the dilemma of anonymous speech. Absent Facebook levels of accountability, which leave you horribly over-exposed to doxxing, the solution is to ignore the troll. Deny him his frission of engagement. Imperfect, but optimal.

Range Front Fault
Guest
Range Front Fault

“IMHO this is a basic behavior issue, that you can even see manifest in animals.”–calsdad To the power dynamic, add the male/female dynamic. Watched the fishies in the bowl, the dude fish chasing the girlie fish round and around and around endlessly. It was either for fishie nookie or guppie dominance or fish beat down. Over and over and over he was chasing her in circles. Wah-Wah-Wah poor little tormented girlie fish. Then noticed the he-fishie was stopped, just breathing, resting in the other side of tank. The girlie fish watched for a moment, then rushed over to him, nudged… Read more »

Ivan
Guest
Ivan

My fish tank story is a little different. I put about ten minnows in my first tank to help the nutrient cycle get started. One day the guard to my water filter was off while cleaning and sucked up one of the minnows and spit him back out with some striped scars along his body. He was weak for a few days but gradually came back to life. Over the next couple months that minnow grew disproportionately fast and proceeded to peck, harass, and somehow kill every other minnow in the tank. All social instincts in it were dead, it… Read more »

Range Front Fault
Guest
Range Front Fault

Shhhhh…….Don’t tell Apex Predator.

Compsci
Guest
Compsci

Range, right! I might also add from a youthful interest in Nature shows that in the animal kingdom, violent confrontations are most dangerous when the two competitors are fairly evenly matched. Such begets injury and death. However, most always, the “fight” is not even, is brief, and when over, order is restored to the group, and everyone gets back to cooperative survival.

Seems only humans want to fight until death or live in an unordered, unchallenged, “hierarchy”.

Range Front Fault
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Range Front Fault

Interesting…..that only makes sense.Add male cats to the list of fight to destruction and die by abscesses.

Hoagie
Guest
Hoagie

The reason you’d get the crap beat out of you if you walked around the neighborhood trolling is because they know who you are. Take away the anonymity of the net, require REAL names addresses, phone numbers and emails and let’s see how fast it calms down. It’s easy to be a commie ass hole if you can’t be found.

Compsci
Guest
Compsci

Hoagie, unfortunately—as AntiFA and Leftists in general have shown—it can’t be done without great risk. The troll’s anonymity is my anonymity. Indeed, in the very early years of the Internet and email/message board communication, our department head published a manifesto for use of our systems in this “brave new world”. There were 14 or so points, all I thought were good—like no anonymity, one had to use one’s real name—and the concept of “generosity” in ones use of the (limited) facilities—respect for copyright—and so forth. Sorry to say, within the decade just about all his points were ignored or had… Read more »

Member

Duels. Just imagine if they legalized dueling. Politician lifespans could be measured in seconds, in today’s environment. They’d have a little more interest to make citizens happy.

Compsci
Guest
Compsci

Cal, if the allegory you write is about concerns eliminating trolls, I might add that how the comment software chosen here may present some possible “solutions”. Some comment software allows ratings—like this one does—but the ratings have little import to them. That is to say a Tiny Duck troll with 50 dislikes appears loud and proud next to a positively rated comment with 50 likes, and I’ve noticed TD gets continued reads and responses even days later. Trolls thrive on being noticed and responded to. Perhaps another comment/discussion software that in some manner sends highly negatively rated comments into the… Read more »

Pimpkin\'s nephew
Guest
Pimpkin\'s nephew

Excellent point. In a perfect Z world, the “obvious” trolls should have no thumbs up, thumbs down, or replies. Just treat their input like junk mail, tossed unopened into the garbage. To down vote a TD is food and drink to him or her or it; it means you’ve read and been irritated by he/she/its verbal offering.

For all we know, TD may be the moniker of some sociology department at a state university studying us, probing for our sensitivities and weak points.

All of TD’s comments seem computer-generated to me.

Pimpkin\'s nephew
Guest
Pimpkin\'s nephew

OK, I’m Tiny Duck and I get -45 on a comment. Or, I get -0 on another comment. Which result is preferred by TD?

New policy: From now on, either here or at Unz, I go +1 for every TD comment. All of us should do the same. +117 for TD resulting from (say):

The white man is on the run. He knows women Love men of color, that a new society is being born from the Wombs of white women who love black men

he knows social justice is coming and his own women hate him

-Tiny Duck

Pimpkin\'s nephew
Guest
Pimpkin\'s nephew

That was my quick Rich Little version of a Tiny Duck comment.

Range Front Fault
Guest
Range Front Fault

Bartender……A double brandy for the gentleman….quick!

Thorsted
Guest
Thorsted

“Black Pigeon Speaks” has just been banned from youtube with nearly half a million subscribers.

Calsdad
Guest
Calsdad

Crap. I really like his stuff.

Member

He’ll probably surface at Unz

Vegetius
Guest
Vegetius

What, did Queen Ann link to one of his videos or something?

Member
Felix_Krull

That’s what you get for relying on enemy infrastructure. They keep wailing about censorship and alt tech, but they still post all their videos on Youtube, making money for the opposition.

If the creators can’t be arsed to move platform, why should I?

Calsdad
Guest
Calsdad

Pretty much the point I’ve been making for a while. Plus – if people move platforms, and start posting all the same things they did before , what can Google, Youtube, Facebook, etc – do about it then? The only recourse then – is to have the government start shutting people down. Which will go to illustrate very clearly who is really the enemy. This is how the fight will play out. If you refuse to engage and want to just keep whining about how all those leftie content platforms are “unfair” – you’re not really fighting the war –… Read more »

Member
Felix_Krull

They suffer from battered wife syndrome. They’re being assraped by people who hate and despise them, and they complain about the lack of lube. A lot of them even have the lack of self-awareness to complain that there are no alternatives to Youtube.

If you want to do your favourite youtuber a solid, flag him, help wean him off the globalist tit.

Oh well, in a few weeks, YT’s terms will include a clause that you can’t post content on supremacist platforms; we’ll soon see who will walk the walk and who will fold.

Member

> If you refuse to engage and want to just keep whining about how all those leftie content platforms are “unfair” – you’re not really fighting the war – are you? I want to know… where are the hackers? When I was a young man (in those glory days ZMan mentions in his article) any company doing the equivalent of what YouTube is doing would have received the Electronic Wrath of Every Dork in the Universe. I’m a hardcore computer guy, and I KNOW the defenses are not enough to stop even a mild 4chan assault– so where are they?… Read more »

Member
Ostei Kozelskii

What is the viable alternative to Youtube?

Member
Felix_Krull

Seriously?

Pimpkin\'s nephew
Guest
Pimpkin\'s nephew

The viable alternative to Youtube is not watching it.

Pimpkin\'s nephew
Guest
Pimpkin\'s nephew

Well, this is bad news – not surprising, just bad, like learning that your 90-year-old mother broke a hip… I just checked to make sure that PJ Watson and The Truth Factory are still available; I don’t watch political videos often, but when I do, I tend to binge-watch, and BPS was one of the best.

I’m binge watching PJW and TTF now, just in case.

Member

Maybe we on the right should have back up systems in place. Like the bbs of old, through dial up, off the internet and away from IP address locations. Are there still serial ports on computers? Ok , I jest but for the real subversive sounds interesting.

Exile
Guest
Exile

I’m still interested in “pirate Internet” ala pirate radio. I don’t have enough tech background to have a good sense of its feasibility and lack the free time to give it a good look. Would appreciate a “for Dummies” reply from those of Us in the know

MemeWarVet
Guest
MemeWarVet

The entire Dissident Right should be on TOR.

Thus far, only Daily Stormer has made that leap. I’d strongly recommend to Z that he do so in the near future.

Exile
Guest
Exile

I thought Tor was thoroughly Fed-compromised if not outright back-doored or false-fronted. Weren’t they exposed for similar around the time Snowden started making news?

MemeWarVet
Guest
MemeWarVet

>Tor sites can’t be shut down by the Silicon Valley Thought Police, that’s the reason to have a presence there.

>If you are any sort of bad thinker, you should be using a VPN. Drop what you’re doing and get one now if you don’t already have one.

Member

If the Feds really want you, you’re fucked, The issue is the endless horde of freelancing antifa wannabe’s and the corporations whose resources they control. You just don’t know who might be building a dossier on you.

Member
Ostei Kozelskii

There is supposedly something called the “dark web,” but I’m totally in the dark about it…

Member

It’s just websites you go to directly via IP address, with no easy-for-girls-to-remember url to type in. So they’re “dark.” It sounds a lot more Awesome Pirate Adventure than it really is.

Vegetius
Guest
Vegetius

We cannot cede one bit of digital space without smart resistance.

Even when a platform is pronounced dead by the cool kids, our people must continue to plant the flag, 24/7.

MossHammer
Guest
MossHammer

Carlsdad identifies a critical difference in the social exchanges: physicality. Online communities lack physical community and I suspect that tying stupidity (trolls) to an actual person, possibly living or working in your physical world, might self-select.

How can we dissidents “panic early” regarding the use of online tools, gathering points, etc. to minimize the natural effects of scaling the collection of like-minded people?

An aside. Zman thank you for broaching practical and strategic topics over the last few posts. As a “newly minted” dissident, I’m hungry for forward-thinking / doing labor.

Exile
Guest
Exile

You’d need a “secret-cell” structure to provide security in the Current Year. Michael Hayden (piss be upon him) recently bragged in Big Media about how he uses socks to infiltrate us, incite newbs to fed-posting then calls in the FBI et al. Mailing lists, user lists etc are a huge point of vulnerability when Big Other takes down a dissident influencer. Samizdat- Sovs learned these lessons in an even harsher school. Look to spycraft & criminal organizations for strategy & tactics.

MartyEv
Guest
MartyEv

“The same things people say about bitcoin today were said about the internet in the olden thymes”. Very much like this line, if there is something much more annoying than libertarians, it is bitcoin people. I understand there might be something to bitcoin/blockchain that is valuable for dissidents, and sure there will probably be some success stories (hopefully from those friendly to whites), but I’ve never seen a group of people so convinced that they’re going to be billionaires and rule the world. Don’t they realize the state and big tech corporations are already making their plans with the technology… Read more »

Guest
Guest
Guest

I’m fond of saying that Constituitons are formed of paper and ink, while institutions are formed of the accumulated cultural wisdom of a society and its traditions. The Bill of Rights was an attempt to encode the God-given rights of Man, as understood by the Founders through the prism of Western Civilization, that no government could infringe. It is a product of Western culture, and more particularly of English culture. There is no cultural foundation for these rights in countries outside of Western Civilization, and there’s simply no reason to believe the rights encoded in Bill of Rights, including the… Read more »

Exile
Guest
Exile

Exactly. And personnel is policy. I think it was Frank Herbert who said in one of the Dune sequels (about the BG’s?) something to the effect that a system of perfect laws is inferior to a tyranny of good deciders.

Member
Ostei Kozelskii

Burke and Scruton tip their caps.

Yves Vannes
Member

Silicon Valley is engaged in a balancing act. It’s no longer the hippie libertarianism (everybody gets their own space) of the old days. There are still a few people like that around but they are terrified of their employees, many of whom are literally members of antifa. On the other hand if they outright ban all dissidents then dissent has no way to blow off steam except to take IRL action. The more astute understand the need not to completely deplatform dissent. This strategy is on its way out. Sort of. “Yang Nervousness ” of a white uprising and violent… Read more »

Jay
Guest

Get something to sell

Juri
Guest
Juri

I think that current campaign is only testing the water for massive internet blackout.

Member
Member

Zman – another excellent post. Yes I remember the BBS days. Was never a super nerd hacker but remember those days (pre-AOL chat room) in mid-90s. I’m about your age and yes, it is true that the Interwebs have swung wildly from one extreme to the other – I remember the libs all lamenting the fact back in the early 2000s that the right was dominating the tubes. I guess it is a constant swing between the forces of freedom (us good guys) and the forces of equality (the devil’s spawn).

karl Mchungus
Guest
karl Mchungus

OT: i predict the HK protests will spread to the mainland and the communist party will lose control and be removed from power.

Juri
Guest
Juri

No, they will not. Days of colored revolutions are over. Ukraine was the last hooray. Next hot spot is Persian Gulf.

Dalits Vs. Daleks
Guest

I predict that there are two possibilities here:

1.) You know absolutely nothing about Chinese history. Or,

2.) You actually know a great deal about Chinese history. Hats off!

Either way, whether it’s Shih Huang-ti or the Heavenly Kingdom of Great Peace (LOL), one thing is certain: China will keep on being Chinese. Would that we could say the same thing for the West, which will also become Chinese. Today Vancouver, tomorrow the world!

“China my china, I’ve
Wandered around, and you’re
Still here.
Which I guess you
Should be proud of…”
— Brian Eno

james wilson
Member

Ah, no. Some of those guys actually read Tocqueville and Burke and know that when authoritarian rule concedes even a token of it’s authority it loses all in short order. The opposition has read that also, but they, like us, are not moving forward without a black swan. But here’s hoping you are right.

A Postcard from the Volcano
Guest

China is like a forest w/r/t forest fires. So long as everything is going jim-dandy economically, (which is now), then no forest fire. When the peasantry is too poor, too tired, or too fed up (which they’re not right now), then there’s a lot of tinder and underbrush and deadwood on the forest floor, and then, WHOOSH! Either Tai-ping Rebellion or dynastic change. The Chicoms started out as the Taipings, and without Deng Xiaoping they would have crumbled like Tai-pings after death of Mao. But Deng saw the road to prosperity, and prosperity arrived, so now, Chicoms are not failed… Read more »

Pimpkin\'s nephew
Guest
Pimpkin\'s nephew

The “thaw” under Khrushchev, and Mao’s idea of letting “a hundred flowers bloom” demonstrated to both rulers that they held tigers by the tail. Neither man was thoroughly evil, but neither was receptive to changes in their power or their self-regard. When a weak dam holds back millions of gallons of fury, you can’t pull your thumb from the hole. You can’t be moderate, you can’t listen to that little voice of decency and humanity in your soul.

Exile
Guest
Exile

Plus they have the USSR as a recent example. Hardliners knew that once they eased off the totalitarian levels of oppression they’d de-stabilize badly. The post-Stalin era was a long march of concessions & decline by the Reds. OTOH, David Satter, (caveat – a raging lib & Askepath-sympathizer) always said that the Brezhnev era when he lived in the USSR was no longer totalitarian because it didn’t need to be – they had already crushed effective dissent & were left with a largely somnelent, if snarky, populace of sheeple by the 1970s. China may be in a similar phase.

Pimpkin\'s nephew
Guest
Pimpkin\'s nephew

I sure hope something wonderful and unexpected occurs in China before I die. I like the Chinese, and they deserve something better than a permanent kleptocracy and life under the eyes of a panopticon.

Member

When in their history have they NOT lived under such a system?

Member

There seems to be a lot more personal freedom in China than in the Untied States,
That may or may not be a tempory thing.

A B
Guest
A B

Bike, that most assuredly is not the case.

Karl McHungus
Guest
Karl McHungus

move there then.

Pimpkin\'s nephew
Guest
Pimpkin\'s nephew

Sounds crazy, but then the USSR went down out of the blue when all our experts said otherwise, when ‘A Day in the Life in the USSR’ was a popular coffee table book in the late 1980s.

Not that I will put money on this horse, but it has happened before, this sort of abrupt change.

Cloudswrest
Guest
Cloudswrest

“… but there was still plenty of social media and plenty of people on it, just smarter people.”

It was the beginning of the end when the AOL people got internet access. There was a phase change in the quality of Usenet postings. It was also around this time that I got my first spam email. Seeing that first spam email I was like totally WTF! I was outraged. My inner sanctum was violated.

Christopher S. Johns
Guest
Christopher S. Johns

May the tech wokeocracy endure at least a decade of mostly meaningless, but very expensive, embarrassing, value-destroying and time-consuming anti-trust litigation before their bell tolls. Couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch.

Member

When Standard Oil was broken up, Rockefeller ended up with controlling ownerships of all seven successor companies and his personal wealth was much enhanced.
For some funny reason that never gets discussed much.

John Gritt
Guest
John Gritt

The real analog for Twitter is IRC and not Usenet. Usenet is the analog for forums. Even the hashtag comes from IRC as it is the symbol that precedes channel names. On IRC anyone can create a channel. Persons can hold channels by running bots. Eventually some IRC networks let channels get registered with permanent owners. IRC channels with operators would kick / ban trolls. Trolls would fight back with flooding. It was all rather fun. Twitter is an asynchronous chat services that pushes chat out to subscribers of users (aka personal channels) and saved hashtags (if you use say,… Read more »

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

And the guest at the party craps all over the host. I guess your mother never taught you any manners when you were a kid, John.

Pimpkin\'s nephew
Guest
Pimpkin\'s nephew

This arrogance of yours, John, does it serve you well in everyday life? You speak ex cathedra as if everyone here has failed to finish high school.

I assume your mother bragged about your reported IQ and that it is a badge pinned to your breast.

There is a class of man – mainly white guys, as Eddie Murphy would have said – obsessed with their IQ and the length of their dicks. Are you one of these men, John?

You make interesting points, then ruin them by being an asshole. Why?

Compsci
Guest
Compsci

John, you trolling again…? Pedantic as the last time too. Z-man got the basics correct and most importantly the concepts that he wished to impart using the (incorrect specific) analogy. You did too, John, but your insight was not important to anyone but yourself (esteem). As to an IQ of 122, that would put Z-man solidly into the upper 10% of individuals, which should be more than enough to handle trolling from folk like you.

John, thanks for playing, see you tomorrow.

Exile
Guest
Exile

Gamma-pedantry is ghey. Have a nice month, sperg.

Lance_E
Member

While I share your opinions on big social brands, most of the public doesn’t. Apple and Google/YouTube are still insanely popular brands. They may be in decline, but to say that Apple is “seen” (by whom?) as a “Chinese electronics company run by an angry homosexual” is fantasy, wishful thinking. Almost nobody sees it that way, and the collective voice of the entire dissident sphere isn’t loud enough to meme that into reality. I’m not intending to blackpill, but the dissident thinkers need to deal with reality. Huffing one’s own farts will only lead to failing tactics and nonsensical strategies.… Read more »

Macumazahn
Guest
Macumazahn

From “I’m not entirely sure I am cut out to be a media whore” to “If you like living off the sweat of others” in just seven short weeks.
Disappointing. Z-Man, I thought better of you.

Pimpkin\'s nephew
Guest
Pimpkin\'s nephew

I hate to say it, but you make a point. The monetization of the Z-man is noted, with its associated ‘fluidity of principle’. I’m still sending him a soiled twenty, though.

Member

I’m mulling it over while continuing my mite, I thought the “help me get out of Lagos” was a big error. I see it’s been dropped.
Let’s give him some time it’s early days.

Now that he’s monetizing, the fuckups that be will be after him so I hope he’s got the server/host bases covered.

Member

I’m mulling it over though still sending my monthly mite.
His “pay for me to flee Lagos: was dumb beyond belief.
But it’s early days and I’m sure I’d have not done better,

Monsieur le Baron
Guest

It’s comic hyperbole.

Member

Unsure if some of you are joking. Anyway, it doesn’t really matter how someone “comes across” when asking for funding. (Not an easy thing to ask for.) Just consider the mental and spiritual fulfillment we gain from our top polemicists in this time. The sheer joy of the experience on a DAILY basis. Simple equation: What is that worth to you?

Sextus Empiricus
Guest
Sextus Empiricus

“A decade ago, Apple was a cool brand run by an equally cool genius who liked wearing black turtlenecks. Now it is seen as a Chinese electronics company run by an angry homosexual.“

An angry self-righteous homosexual.

Problem with Apple is that the only alternative is Android/Google, queen of customer surveillance.

trackback

[…] The solution to the problem was the oldest of solutions. Peaceful separation allowed everyone to have a forum, but it reduced the incentives for the disruptive. Going into the forum of a rival group, for example, and posting a bunch of troll-bait, did not provide the same dopamine rush to the troll as it did on a public forum. There was no one around to see it and cheer it. It was like being a graffiti artist in a blind community. These trolling efforts were quietly removed and the community could easily ignore them. That is what will happen… Read more »

Member

I miss alt.pavetheearth. Yellow double stripes around the equator or not?