The Death Of Citizenism

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For at least two decades there has been a debate on the Right, broadly defined, about how to define America and the citizen. On one side are the intellectual descendants of Harry Jaffa, who argued America is just an idea, so a citizen is someone who agrees with that idea. On the other side are the people who take the view of the Founders who held the traditional view of nationhood. America is the product of a people who secured the blessings of liberty for themselves and their posterity.

A middle ground was staked out twenty years ago by Steve Sailer. He came up with an idea he called “citizenism” which says “Americans should be biased in favor of the welfare of our current fellow citizens over that of the six billion foreigners.” Therefore, “our leaders have a duty to current citizens and their descendants over the interests of prospective citizens and their descendants”. This is a definition that allows for the appreciation of racial differences between the current citizens.

Sailer’s definition is reactive, more than objective. He was trying at the time to put space between himself and other race realists. He wanted to talk honestly and openly about racial differences without being lumped in with people like Jared Taylor, who he considered to be a white nationalist. Sailer and Jared Taylor had an exchange back in 2005 on this topic as well as Taylor’s book The Color of Crime. Here are some bits of this debate here, here and here.

Fifteen years on, we can look at the three sides of this dispute with the benefit of hindsight and see who was closer to the truth. The “nation of ideas” side is looking rather shabby, as the West lurches into despotism in an effort to keep the wildly diverse population from destroying itself. The suspension of civil liberties, constant surveillance and state sanctioned domestic terrorism suggest that the idea at the heart of this new definition of the nation is authoritarianism.

Further, the “nation of ideas” concept was always a Marxist notion. Instead of society being the product of economic relations, the nation of ideas people define society as cultural relations. This is right out of the cultural Marxist handbook. The main difference is the Left thinks that culture is the product of institutions while the Right thinks it is the product of magic. While both sides are wrong about the source of culture, the Left was smart enough to seize the institutions.

The traditionalists who claim a nation is the product of a people, held together by a shared history and kinship have not been proven correct, but their claims against a nation of ideas is supported by present reality. Time will tell if the West devolves into tribal camps that judge their relations with other groups purely through the lens of tribal self-interest, but that is the current direction. At the minimum, the Jared Taylor camp was right about identity politics and what is means for white people.

As far as citizenism, it may be the biggest loser. In his exchange with Jared Taylor, Steve Sailer wrote, “And yet, this manner of thinking, this dismissal of objective reality in favor of assessing whose side the speaker is on, is probably as popular today in America as it was in Berlin and Moscow in Orwell’s day.” Sailer was comparing Orwell’s description of Nazism with Taylor’s brand of white nationalism. In other words, these views contrast with objective reality.

It is turns out that the citizenism can only work if everyone involved steadfastly and fanatically rejects objective reality. For example, they must refuse to consider that what leaders will do is not always in line with what you think they ought to do. Further, the “best interests of the current citizens” is a normative statement, whose definition is based on the perspective of the speaker. The universalist concept of best interest at the heart of citizenism is as real as the unicorn.

To some degree, this form of bourgeoise objectivism has always functioned as a form of escapism where the objectivist gets to be both right and taboo. In this case, he gets to speak candidly about the human condition from the perspective of biology but avoid being sanctioned by the people who must deny this reality. In other words, it assumes there is an exception to morality, where you can avoid official sanction over impure thoughts if you can prove those thoughts to be correct.

This is a world that denies the reality of the prevailing orthodoxy, thus denying objective reality with regards to human relations. Every society has its moral framework that is rooted in its sense of identity. This is largely controlled by the ruling class, which is a feature of every society, regardless of politics. The morality of the people in charge of the West requires us to deny biology and they make no exceptions. That is a reality one must accept before engaging in any analysis of politics.

In the end, Steve Sailer’s approach was rooted in a misunderstanding of what lies behind things like open borders. It was not a desire for mundane things like a desire to save the world or a demand for cheap labor. At the heart of the neoliberal project is the assertion that humans are infinitely adaptable to their culture. This is the unequivocal denial of biological reality. This is why citizenism was doomed from the start. It offered a compromise that could never be tolerated, much less accepted.

In the end, the nation of ideas side was probably more realistic than their critics on the biological reality side. They accepted the premise of cultural Marxism, which is that control of the institutions is what matters in current politics. They simply lacked the intelligence and courage to put their ideas into practice. As a result, the West is headed into the darkness of radicalism. If the West is to survive, Western man must accept biological reality and the reality of those who oppose him.

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199 thoughts on “The Death Of Citizenism

  1. wonder when the media (and people in general) are going to start connecting the dots: “if biden is incompetent re: afghan, then maybe he is also incompetent/wrong about covid too…”

    • Like all presidents, Biden is a scapegoat, not a decision-maker. He’ll get blamed for lots of things.

  2. “ If the West is to survive, Western man must accept biological reality and the reality of those who oppose him.”

    Gee, there was this Austrian guy who became German Chancellor who tried this and…was done in by White Anglo Saxon Protestants.

    I also don’t believe in their sincerity of belief, especially the neoliberals. I judge by results. They simply meant harm all along and their words are deceit. We have to face the reality that we’re being lied to and were all along.

    We just need to stop talking and either die quietly or act.

  3. I must partly correct you, Z. The Left has indeed captured most institutions but they certainly have renounced magic, their enthusiastic phony embrace of “SCIENCE!” (when it suits them) notwithstanding.. Now, I’m not talking about the hocus pocus kind. I don’t believe in the supernatural. But if you accept the synonym “illusion,” then yes. In fact one “magician” (Perhaps the late Randi, well known as being a hoax debunker) preferred the term “Illusionist,” as he thought that would help dispel his audience of the illusion, if you will, that real magic exists. But that’s the problem in political and other positions of power: magical thinking. And it’s not only the Left that’s guilty of it. Magic doesn’t really exist, but BELIEVING IN MAGIC does, and that is the root of the whole mess.

    Mark Twain: “It ain’t what people don’t know, it’s what they know, that ain’t so.”

  4. Probably one of the more accessible distillations of what it was to be an American, or what Americans imagined was America, is represented in the 1986 film Hoosiers. It’s free to view on YouTube, and I urge anyone interested to give it a watch.

    Set in 1951, it’s about a New York basketball coach, played by Gene Hackman, who moves to small town Indiana to coach the high school basketball team. Hackman’s character has a dark secret hanging over him which has prevented him from coaching for nearly twelve years. A friend does him a favor by giving him one last chance at redemption in the fictional Hickory, Indiana.

    Notable is the stunning lack of diversity. The town is entirely Caucasian, and Christian. No effort at token minority inclusion is made. The American flag hangs prominently in the school’s gymnasium. The people take an active interest in local affairs. All the townsfolk are honorable people, including the local drunk. Even George, the man who insults Hackman by trying to wrestle away control of the team, is only looking out for the best interests of the boys, whom he clearly cares about.

    You’d think Hackman’s character would hate living in small town America, a town that according to the antagonistic female teacher doesn’t appear on most state maps. But it’s the opposite. Hackman appears content with small town America. He‘s shown in multiple shots helping out the locals and gazing into the rural, serene horizon. The teacher, on the other hand, berates the area and reveals that she once tried getting out. She didn’t succeed, but she is determined to make sure the local basketball star, a young man who has given up on the sport, doesn’t follow in her footsteps. He can do better than Hickory, she explains.

    But rather than Hoosiers being a story about getting out of small town America, it’s a story about community acceptance. Jimmy, the basketball prodigy, later rejoins the team to save the coach’s job, now in jeopardy due to repeated losses, and to help out his community which is suffering in the wake of continual failure. The female teacher realizes that she was wrong and supports the coach staying; she tacitly agrees that Jimmy should come back.

    Hoosiers is an inspirational bit of Americana free of materialism and “American Dream” nonsense. It’s not about nebulous freedoms or theatrical patriotism – muh George Washington. It’s about community and not about self-interest. Civic Nationalism plays no role here. It’s the people that make the community, which in turn inspires the actions. The coach makes it a point that he once was a man of poor character and would do anything for self-advancement, but now that he’s here in Hickory he’s only interested in doing what’s best for the townsfolk. That means putting his job at risk by not pursing the local basketball star who could help him win. That means sobering up the town drunk so he doesn’t embarrass his son who plays on the team.

    This is the film, moreso than fluff like “Happy Days”, which displays – perhaps best — what Americans once thought it was to be an American. Watching this film will make you long for that America, which is now long gone.

  5. I am a native German and can trace my family ancestry back to the 1600’s. It was required by law to prove your German heritage during our Austrian chancellor’s term in office. So this knowledge of family heritage is not uncommon.

    What defines us as Germans? I would say it’s our heimat (our land), our heritage and of course our language. These are all uniquely German and have been, more or less, for over 2,000 years.

    Culture is regional and relative to the times as we all know. Religion, law, constitutions, governmental policies and currencies also change change over time. The only constant is our borders and these are usually defined more by geography than anything else.

    Therefore we can only define ourselves as Germans by where we live, how long we have lived here and our language. And because up until the past 70-years or so, we, like most nations, have been a homogeneous people; ethnically distinct in Europe as Germanic and recognized as far back as Roman times.

    But Americans have none of this. You took or bartered the land away from the Natives who had been there for thousands of years. For most of you, only the last three or four generations of your family were native born and all came from somewhere else. You speak a cobbled together language based on English, but incorporate words from other languages; (e.g. kindergarden, RSVP, etc.).

    So how do you define yourself as an American? What is it to be an American? The American heritage is made up of people who abandoned their countries, their culture, their heritage and their language. You are not native to the land you occupy. You are a mixed people from multiple ethnic backgrounds and always have been. Even I know California, Texas and Massachusetts are worlds apart from each other.

    It must be a struggle to define who and what is it to be an American. In a way, you are truly the most unique people on the planet. 🙂

      • New nations are born, and old nations long under imperial dominion are reborn, from the corpses of empires. Our American civilizational mission of European Liberty has been hijacked by our enemies and the traitors who have sided with them. The death of the Globalist American Empire will be a blessing for all humanity.

      • I think we know

        The US is a failed English, later German than Pan European colonial effort.

        Now its a standard Latin American nation with corruption, tyranny and bad government.

        Its larger than most and as such may split apart but otherwise, its just like the rest.

    • All true, but my family has been here for about15 generations. At some point your German forebears were less than 300 years in country but had become distinctly German.

    • Well said. Americans must be a nation based upon race, as in White race and enclaves of separated races. Or it must be based upon an idea, and we know that ain’t working as such has became apparent as the percentage of Whites declined in comparison to non-Whites. And here we are. The kettle is boiling and to keep the lid on, we must revert to authoritarianism rather than self control, with all that entails. Nothing new here, Z-man just puts it into better wording.

      • What was America based on?

        From 1776 to 1965, it was
        A) based on WASPiness (even if, in 1865, appeared the roots of B)

        B) America is based on extreme left “values” since 1965. Nixon, Reagan and Trump failed against this reality.

        And considering than now, white Americans are wasp AND latins, germanics, slaves, finno-hungarish, whatever, America
        C)… Should be based on whiteness.

        The problem is : how go from B to C?

    • Interesting observation.
      Perhaps easier to define what it’s NOT to be an American. Ironically, in our pledge of allegiance – one nation under God – certainly seems would be on the list of things that are not what it means to be an American (leastways not anymore in the traditional “Judeo-Christian” sense – and to which I might add is much to be regretted).

      • “Judeo-Christian”, said Dwight David Eisenhower.

        Turns out that back when he was a boy, at the US Military Academy, Eisenhower was known as “the j00 of West Point”.

        Go figure.

        And we wonder why Patton was ass@ssinated.


        Poor guy never had a chance.

        As soon as he wrote those letters to his wife, Patton was a dead man standing.

    • All nations, including the German one, were originally established through conquest. The Germanic peoples wrested what is now Germany from the Roman Empire who took it from Celtic peoples. Expat Brits, doing the same with Amerindians in the New World is really not much different.

      • Not quite. The Germanic tribes were well established before the Romans came north and tried to impose their rule.

        Ultimately, we sent the Roman legions packing following the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest in 9 AD when Germanic leader Arminius organized a series of ambushes on a column of three Roman legions headed by Publius Quinctilius Varus.

        Arminius destroyed all three legions in about four days, and ultimately prevented Rome from subjugating Germania east of the Rhine River.

        • “Ultimately, we sent the Roman legions packing following the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest in 9 AD when Germanic leader Arminius organized a series of ambushes on a column of three Roman legions headed by Publius Quinctilius Varus.

          Arminius destroyed all three legions in about four days, and ultimately prevented Rome from subjugating Germania east of the Rhine River.”

          OT but as a Roman: mmh… “sent packing”… “destroyed”…
          While true, that’s just part of the story:

          (from Wikipedia) Though the shock at the slaughter was enormous, the Romans immediately began a slow, systematic process of preparing for the reconquest of the country. In 14 CE, just after Augustus’ death and the accession of his heir and stepson Tiberius, a massive raid was conducted by the new emperor’s nephew Germanicus. He attacked the Marsi with the element of surprise. The Bructeri, Tubanti and Usipeti were roused by the attack and ambushed Germanicus on the way to his winter quarters, but were defeated with heavy losses.

          The next year was marked by two major campaigns and several smaller battles with a large army estimated at 55,000–70,000 men, backed by naval forces. In spring 15 CE, Legatus Caecina Severus invaded the Marsi a second time with about 25,000–30,000 men, causing great havoc. Meanwhile, Germanicus’ troops had built a fort on Mount Taunus from where he marched with about 30,000–35,000 men against the Chatti. Many of the men fled across a river and dispersed themselves in the forests. Germanicus next marched on Mattium (caput gentis) and burned it to the ground. After initial successful skirmishes in summer 15 CE, including the capture of Arminius’ wife Thusnelda, the army visited the site of the first battle. According to Tacitus, they found heaps of bleached bones and severed skulls nailed to trees, which they buried, “…looking on all as kinsfolk and of their own blood…”. At a location Tacitus calls the pontes longi (“long causeways”), in boggy lowlands somewhere near the Ems, Arminius’ troops attacked the Romans. Arminius initially caught Germanicus’ cavalry in a trap, inflicting minor casualties, but the Roman infantry reinforced the rout and checked them. The fighting lasted for two days, with neither side achieving a decisive victory. Germanicus’ forces withdrew and returned to the Rhine.

          Under Germanicus, the Romans marched another army, along with allied Germanic auxiliaries, into Germania in 16 CE. He forced a crossing of the Weser near modern Minden, suffering some losses to a Germanic skirmishing force, and forced Arminius’ army to stand in open battle at Idistaviso in the Battle of the Weser River. Germanicus’ legions inflicted huge casualties on the Germanic armies while sustaining only minor losses. A final battle was fought at the Angrivarian Wall west of modern Hanover, repeating the pattern of high Germanic fatalities, which forced them to flee beyond the Elbe. Germanicus, having defeated the forces between the Rhine and the Elbe, then ordered Caius Silius to march against the Chatti with a mixed force of three thousand cavalry and thirty thousand infantry and lay waste to their territory, while Germanicus, with a larger army, invaded the Marsi for the third time and devastated their land, encountering no resistance.

          With his main objectives reached and winter approaching, Germanicus ordered his army back to their winter camps, with the fleet incurring some damage from a storm in the North Sea. After a few more raids across the Rhine, which resulted in the recovery of two of the three legions’ eagles lost in 9 CE, Tiberius ordered the Roman forces to halt and withdraw across the Rhine. Germanicus was recalled to Rome and informed by Tiberius that he would be given a triumph and reassigned to a new command.

          Germanicus’ campaign had been taken to avenge the Teutoburg slaughter and also partially in reaction to indications of mutinous intent amongst his troops. Arminius, who had been considered a very real threat to stability by Rome, was now defeated. Once his Germanic coalition had been broken and honour avenged, the huge cost and risk of keeping the Roman army operating beyond the Rhine was not worth any likely benefit to be gained. Tacitus, with some bitterness, claims that Tiberius’ decision to recall Germanicus was driven by his jealousy of the glory Germanicus had acquired, and that an additional campaign the next summer would have concluded the war and facilitated a Roman occupation of territories between the Rhine and the Elbe.

          The third legionary standard was recovered in 41 CE by Publius Gabinius from the Chauci during the reign of Claudius, brother of Germanicus.[62] Possibly the recovered aquilae were placed within the Temple of Mars Ultor (“Mars the Avenger”), the ruins of which stand today in the Forum of Augustus by the Via dei Fori Imperiali in Rome.

          The last chapter was recounted by the historian Tacitus. Around 50 CE, bands of Chatti invaded Roman territory in Germania Superior, possibly an area in Hesse east of the Rhine that the Romans appear to have still held, and began to plunder. The Roman commander, Publius Pomponius Secundus, and a legionary force supported by Roman cavalry recruited auxiliaries from the Vangiones and Nemetes. They attacked the Chatti from both sides and defeated them, and joyfully found and liberated Roman prisoners, including some from Varus’ legions who had been held for 40 years.

          Anfìd about the battle itself when the Romans took their revenge: The Germanic tribes generally avoided open large-scale combat, but by repeated Roman incursions deep into Germanic territory, Germanicus was able to force Arminius, at the head of a large but fractious coalition, into response. The Romans, along with the Chauci, who fought for Romans as auxiliaries, defeated the allied Germanic forces and inflicted heavy losses on them. Arminius and his uncle Inguiomer were wounded in the battle, but both evaded capture. The retreating Germanic army was cut down in every quarter. Many attempting to swim across the Weser died for a storm of projectiles or by the force of the current. Many others climbed the tops of trees, and while they were hiding themselves in the boughs, the Romans brought archers up to shoot them down.

          According to Tacitus, “[f]rom nine in the morning to nightfall the [Germans] were slaughtered, and ten miles were covered with arms and dead bodies.”

          The Roman soldiers involved on the battlefield hailed Tiberius as imperator and raised a pile of arms as a trophy with the names of the defeated tribes inscribed beneath them.

      • The tragedy of America is that history remembers the foundational genocide. Most European nations were founded in the historical black hole between the Romans and the Middle Ages and little trace remains of those we killed, so we don’t suffer guilt-based shakedown operations from their descendants.

        • One thing I struggle with is that I generally regard people who feel guilty about living in the land their ancestors stole as deserving of being exterminated by the next conqueror in line. Sadly this includes most White Americans, at least in my area and lots of others around the country. The only bright spot is that these types seem to be taking their guilty feelings to heart and not reproducing. If only we could hasten the process by inventing an actual suicide cult for them to join.

    • “The only constant is our borders and these are usually defined more by geography than anything else.”

      And that blood you can trace all the way back to the 1600s.

    • This is all true. This is why the greatest catastrophe of western civilization, the idea-based-state is so strong here. I believe that our only way forward is embracing as American whites, the regional identities that continue to this day. A Texan is a Texan. A New Yorker is a New Yorker and a Midwesterner is a midwesterner, etc. As someone born and raised on the west side of the continental divide, I consider anything east of Denver to be a different country. The weakness you speak of is precisely because we’re such a continental nation. For instance, we have a right wing politician from the Southeast named Marjorie Taylor Green. Even if I agree with her on many issues, besides being a Crossfit whore, culturally, she’s Southeastern, with all of the things I can’t stand about that culture. The sweet tea. The accent with words like y’all. The awful country pop songs. The pieces of fried chicken when you order a chicken salad. So the right is far more disunited because its national political voices, in such a massive country, are generally from distinct regions that are alien to the rest. This benefits the left as they’re more about the universal Marxist movement than about regional identity.

      • @ JR Wirth – “in such a massive country, are generally from distinct regions that are alien to the rest.”

        That is understandable. Many Germans still feel that way about Bavaria! Haha!

      • Under the twin onslaughts of mass media culture and internal immigration, regional cultural differences are disappearing. I’ve lived almost 50 years in the state of Texas, and in that relatively short period of time I’ve noticed “Texanness” recede dramatically. The accents and idioms, the food and clothing are not what they were in 1981. They are much more like what you’d find in any other state in AINO.

        • I retired here in Texas after nearly 25 years in the Army. MY wife is a native Texan and very Texan….rodeo queen…boots …..we have horses etc, and I completely agree with that statement. I was shocked how blah a lot of the state is. People who visit from the north east are “charmed” by the culture but its not a ton of difference from Missouri or Kansas. I expected more…I don’t know what…independence I guess. I want to move further west. Texas has been over run and there is no turning back the clock.

          • One of my best friends, who is a New York Jew and a prominent rightwing academic intellectual, was disappointed upon moving to Texas. He was expecting Resistols and Stetsons, twangs and drawls, chewing tobacco and snuff, Jerry Fritz and Bobby Earl. He got none of that. I told him he arrived a good 30 years too late for all of that kind of joy.

      • You have to watch it, Mr. Wirth. There is a very strong Dixie cohort in this comment section, who can be pretty touchy.

        The South (capital letter) has a real culture. It is not to my taste, the climate is WAY to hot and their accent is annoying as heck to my ears. However, they are most certainly white, Christian and on our side.

        My area would only improve if every single person on this side of the divide moved from the former Confederacy to a more favorable climate (say, north of the 40th parallel, in line with Europe).

        They can bring their sweet tea and I’ll provide the coats, long underwear & mittens.

    • The Americans have something else, endowed to them by their pioneer culture and the self-selection by the Europeans that headed West: a readiness to burn it all down and start over, not burdened by anxiety that they’d lose themselves in the process.

      Civic nationalism worked for America up until diversity. Not perfectly, but having only one civil war in more than 150 year is not a bad track record.

      But you have to work on paper nationalism all the time: fly the flag, sing the anthem, swear the Oath of Allegiance, quote the Constitution and so forth. Back before Trump, I one time counted more than sixty flags on Breitbart’s front page, including those silly little lapel flags.

      • having only one civil war in more than 150 year

        Or 228 even, counting back to the secession from Britain.

        Incidentally, we had a civil war in Denmark same time you did. Lost us a third of our country to Karl Horst and his ilk.

        • @ Felix Krull – True. But let’s not forget Easter Week of 882 AD.

          You remember – when Viking raiders attacked and destroyed the monasteries, churches and farmsteads outside the city walls of Trier, including the imperial monastery of St. Maximin and the abbeys of St. Martin and St. Symphorian.

          The Vikings also captured the city and plundered it. Afterwards, they went down the Moselle to Koblenz, while the rest marched on Metz.

          Ah yes. The dark ages. Good times! 😉

          • You call that a raid? The British do worse to Ibiza these days.

            Ah yes. The dark ages. Good times!

            Yes. We should come together and do it again sometimes.

          • I for one would favor Viking diplomacy over what we have today. I’m sure we would both agree there are a few EU leaders who should be introduced to the business end of a Viking axe.

          • Well, if you have a yen for the Dark Ages, your craving may shortly be satisfied. Alas, the second Dark Ages will be dark in more ways than one…

          • ” Alas, the second Dark Ages will be dark in more ways than one…”

            I was thinking more along the lines of a land grab, gobbling up the territory that the soon-to-be imploded globohomo Empire has left ripe for conquest.

            There are almost half a billion white people on the planet. When we get our shit together and throw off the yoke, the planet won’t know what hit it.

            We’ll whip this joint into shape in no time and proceed onward to the stars.

      • Oh we wave the German flag and swear all the time. Well, okay, not all the time. But at least every four years during the world cup.

        • I am very proud to be a direct descendant of Duke Robert (Rollo – the first Duke of Normadie) and I got a good laugh out of a meme I saw of the Vikings a few days ago. It had a three of the main characters from the TV show holding their trademark axes, smiling and covered in blood. The caption read, “Vikings! Walk in, f%ck shit up, walk out!”
          I agree, we DO need that type of diplomacy again. I was listening to an interview a week ago and it had to do with the ongoing battle against CRT. To wit, one of the points made was the surprise at the “uprising” of white parents against all of this and one of the people there made the point that, “Whites have been conditioned to stay silent and that they are told that they no longer have any agency of their own. Those who took their silence for granted now have no idea how to deal with them.”
          An interesting point to be sure, but I believe that striking back and striking hard and LOUDLY is an ace we need to play whenever possible. Our enemies have demonstrated that they have no defense when we do.

      • I sincerely hope the willingness to “burn it down and start all over” still exists…

        • I sincerely hope the willingness to “burn it down and start all over” still exists…

          More than it does in Europe. It’s the drawback of roots, they tend to make you sedentary.

      • Felix, I agree that Americans are congenitally ill-disposed towards ethnic nationalism. We were literally self-selected against it by emigration from Europe.

        However, our enemies have imposed an identity on us. If I get cold-cocked by a non-white, it’s not because I’m of Scottish descent or because I respect Christianity. It’s because I’m white and in America.

        One of the times I felt my white ethnicity was when I found myself in a convenience store in rural California where I was the only white person and the only one who spoke English. They looked at me with undisguised hostility.

        At present, our white American identity is a negative identity, but collective threat and persecution can build solidarity, like the blacks and hispanics from all over the world.

        • One of the lonliest feelings in my life was being the only white guy in one half of the World Cup soccer stadium at a soccer match in Cape Town, South Africa.

    • I am an American. I can trace my ancestry back to the 1600s. There was a “USA” before there was a “Germany” or an “Italy” (whoo boy I’m treading in hot water here.) In 1790 the settler population of the US was 80% British. The rest were German and Dutch.

      • True enough. We are the “newest” of the “old” countries in Europe. Shamefully, not long after we unified, we managed make our neighbors rather unhappy for a time.

        But in fairness, we were only taking lessons in Colonization from the British who had been at it for centuries. Obviously they were much better at it than we were with much better results and without pissing off the neighbors.

        How they subjugated an entire Indian continent is still an amazing trick of diplomacy. Germany could barely manage our tiny, backward colonies scattered across Africa.

      • You forgot the French and there were quite a few Scandinavians in the mix as well. Colonel Francis Marion, The “Swamp Fox” from the Revolution was Huguenot French.

    • Felix asks, “So how do you define yourself as an American?”

      I acknowledge that defining “a white American” has become difficult since about WW2. Before that, White America was defined by:
      • Reverence for the Founding Fathers, even if you have your disagreements with them
      • Admiration for the men and families who tamed our Western land
      • Admiration for the American inventors, like the Wright Brothers, Ford, and Edison.

      Today, of course, this is all heresy, but it is still there in the hearts of traditional white Americans.

    • “America is a bad place for gods” Neil Gaiman, “American Gods”

      The British Neil Gaiman wrote that book when he lived in northern Wisconsin with his American wife. The Afgans are bringing their new god to Ft. McCoy, down the road from where he lived.

      Interesting times.

    • We used to be a country of people who came here to escape overbearing richfuck government shitheads. You could work hard, move up. set your kids up for a better life. Oh , the irony, now we’re in a jew owned concentration camp. There goes the profanity bell.

    • Karl, yes America is a melting pot of good and not-so-good. But there is more than a little German in our (White) nation, about 40% by some estimates. Dry wit is not the exclusive property of Germans, but well done with “our Austrian Chancellor” 😀

      • I believe Hitler’s goal after winning the war was to send Goebbels to the United States to deal with (((certain elements))) and also to reinvigorate the Teutonic bona fides of Americans with German ancestry.

  6. I do not agree that culture is a function of institutional imperatives. That is reductive. The institutions are a function of culture, which is a function, primarily, of biology. Western institutions are controlled–for the time being, anyway–by whites and Finkels. White culture is self-critical, xenophilic, fundamentally curious about the world, and most importantly, the peoples in it. The culture is also fundamentally creative in all respects.

    The components of white culture produce marvelous results, in the main, but also generate tremendous instability. We are far too willing to adopt the notion that all things are truly possible and thus worthy of trying. Our culture is unbounded by any metaphysical barriers. Consequently, we fall prey to things such as postmodern madness and its multicultural, anti-white ramifications. And the exponents of this lunacy control utterly the institutions of the West. But it all goes back to biology; the institutions are epiphenomena.

    • @ Ostei Kozelskii – One might argue that the early non-white civilizations of the middle east and Mediterranean did quite well in science, art, engineering, mathematics and medicine.

      However, once a certain religion of “peace” showed up and dominated those regions, they all failed to move past of the 7th century.

      • Yes, they did quite well. So did the Chinese, and arguably, even the Indians. However, my comment was about the West.

        • It was Fukuyama (I think, “The Origins of Political Order”) who makes a case that Europe was a backwater until right around 1500. He points out, correctly I think, that the “Arabs” (Ottomans) and the Chinese actually had advanced (for their times) inventions — gunpowder, the printing press, knowledge of astronomy, etc. — but, due essentially to cultural or institutional limitations, did little or nothing with the discoveries. The genius, or luck if you like, of Europe is that we had the right mix of intelligence and chaos (think of those Vikings!) and eventually the spark was set for the Renaissance. It’s been a wild 500 years. What the future holds, I don’t know…

          Above somebody said there’s a half a billion Caucasians in the world. I was just thinking of the famous

          and their oft-quoted Guideline (#1 in fact) that the World population be held to 500,000 million. Hmmm…. 😀

          • That “backwater” had a stupendous Greco-Roman past, not to mention the greatest architectural achievements–even to this very day (Romanesque and Gothic cathedrals)–in history, and a robust medieval philosophical tradition hallmarked by the likes of Aquinas, St. Anselm, Peter Abelard, John Scotus, William of Occam, Meister Eckhart, Nicolas Cusanus, etc.

    • This is a great comment. The willingness to experiment, accept some disorder etc was a great feature of the culture, as it accelerated progress. Perhaps it has outlived its usefulness if it’s indeed a biological feature. We’re going to find out if self preservation is stronger than curiosity.

  7. We have to be far more open to the evidence that people are far more malleable than we ever give them credit for. Even right now, today, we have at least anecdotal stories of groups of teenage girls who all know each other declaring themselves to be trans. Criminality for white males has dropped off a cliff in the last 30-50 years. Imagine the pushback you would have gotten if, in the 1930s, you looked at a large ethnic neighborhood in one of our major cities that the grandchildren and great-grand children of the kids raising hell in those cities would be suburbanites not leaving their houses to play video games in mamma’s basement.

    Just look at what “education” has done to our children. Many of these children experience pain at hearing some adult say something racist. This has even wrought changes in them physically. The testosterone levels in young men has been steadily falling for decades. Even if this can be blamed on less exercise in childhood or something, it just begs the question about why they don’t want to go out anymore. It’s not just video games or movies. My generation had them too.

    • People are indeed pretty plastic between the hashes. It’s when you try to throw down the sideline that you run into problems. What screws it up is, we live lives of such unimaginable ease that we no longer have any idea where the sidelines even are.

      For instance, one of my worst College Town memories — one that still gives me nightmares — is watching a feminist professor try to lift a “value size” bag of kitty litter from the bottom shelf. Not because she looked like Trigglypuff (though she did), but because she learned absolutely nothing from having to call the stockboy over to lift it for her.

      It takes tremendous effort not to notice basic biological reality. We’re talking “get the Pyramid of Giza built over the weekend” levels of pure effort… and yet, thanks to our incredible technology, lots of us manage it easily. Why she didn’t just make that bag 40 lbs lighter with a lecture about intersectionality, or socially construct herself a bigger set of muscles, is beyond me.

      They assume that level of technology-assisted plasticity means that humans are infinitely malleable. They’re wrong, but they’re going to blow up more than a few cities learning it (if, indeed, their brains aren’t so broken that they can never learn it).

      • I was walking into a university library some time ago, and two female library employees were having the devil of a time trying to push a cart full of books over some entryway stripping into the building. I offered my services–I could have gotten the cart over the stripping using just one hand–but they just scowled at me and shook their heads brusquely. I chuckled, walked past them, and then heard the damnedest clatter. The cart toppled over scattering the books everywhere. My chuckle turned into a roaring laugh.

        • We have to humiliate them, particularly the women, at every opportunity. While women can easily become arrogant, they’re just as easily chastened when treated properly. Getting our culture back is going to require quite a bit of the latter.

          • ABSOLUTELY!!!
            Ridicule needs to come back in a big way. Ridicule is very effective keeping people in line, especially women.

          • KGB: Absolutely. And I always make a point of smiling and thanking any White man who opens a door for me – not because I am unable to do so – but because of the thought and courtesy and tradition behind it.

      • I agree that it is just as big of a mistake to assume that because we are malleable to a degree, that therefor we are infinitely malleable and that you can turn Africans into Swedes.
        My point is that there is a lot of plastic to us and especially in the mentality. All the education in the world is not going to turn women into men.

        Funny enough, virtually all the women I know understand there are some things they call “men’s work” which would certainly include lifting a 50 pound bag of kitty litter from the ground to the top of the cart. Plus, really, anything mechanical in nature. Even if they can do it, they don’t want to do it.

  8. “As a result, the West is headed into the darkness of radicalism.” – In today’s America, biological reality IS radical. So radical in fact that once embraced, all contemporary “reality” falls to pieces. While the neoliberals reject biological reality, the manic, vicious zealotry they use to stomp it out reveals a natural truth of the universe. It’s like the demonic possession horror movies where the demon gets sprayed with holy water. Obviously, if the demons ran the show, which they do, all holy water (biological realism) would be banned. Deep in the neoliberal subconscious they know damn well that they live in a false reality. What we experience is rage against God himself for making the world, to them, so grotesquely unfair. They’re repairing his shoddy work, creating a new Nirvana, while shaking their fists at him. This extends all the way through human sexuality and into the current 50,000 genders issue, and special rights for people who scoop out their genitals like pumpkins. The reason we’re experiencing the COVID vaccine/mask mandates is because THIS is their Nirvana, built on the alter of “The Science.” They don’t want to go anywhere! It’s why we hear more and more about CRISPR and everything else. They don’t want to be pulled from their new creation and into a domain where the laws of the universe still apply. It’s not a place they would like. At the end of their mania, death itself is a repairable disease.

    • On an investing site (of all places) I’ve been in a running debate about, among other issues, why COVID-19 statistics should not be believed. Today, in one of my better ripostes, I was responding to a (possibly MD) and I made a connection from his presumed training, asking him why he’d not use the same due diligence in evaluating why statistics from different countries might or might not be reliable for making any claims about the pandemic. I served up the recent AMA position to not put an infant’s sex on the birth certificate, and asked Mr. MD if he thought omitting basic facts of biology in favor of some ideological viewpoint wouldn’t have deleterious effects on the public perception of his business, or their competence to weigh in on more complex matters. 🙂

      • Ben – Fact is, most doctors are not that bright. They’re selected for their willingness to grind, ability to memorize, and being standard followers of what’s decreed to be ‘truth’ and ‘science.’ Most modern ob/gyns have never, not even once, observed and participated in a natural and normal woman’s labor and birth, so they haven’t a clue how things are supposed to go. Most don’t do any investigating about medications but accept what they’re told by the pharmaceutical reps. They love to be treated like masters and authorities and can’t handle being questioned or proven wrong. I lost my ‘faith’ in the average doctor long before Covid showed up. Note this does not mean I follow those who believe traditional Han or Indian ‘ayurvedic’ superstitions are magic panaceas; I just do all my own homework and find doctors who can handle a smart and informed patient (there aren’t that many).

  9. which is a bigger issue. Is it the race/hbd issue or is it masks/COVID? they are both important issues but I feel like it’s the latter. If you don’t like diversity you can always find a lot of very white areas to live in. But the mask stuff seems much more invasive because everyone to some extent or another is experiencing it. The fact a lot of states are mandating ritualized child abuse is even worse. Like the line needs to be drawn somewhere

      • LSU is requiring proof of vaxx or non-infection before being allowed to attend their football games. I sincerely hope the Bayou Bengals play in an empty stadium, but I have little hope that will happen.

        • “Muh sportsball!” I detect a lessening of support, but not nearly enough. In fact, the more they continue tormenting the populace with Wuflu restrictions, the more the normie pines for an escape.

          I was for many years a very interested supporter of Liverpool in the EPL, but last year, I just couldn’t muster any interest. Still, you get the itch from time to time. So the other day, after the opening weekend of games, I popped over to the very popular message board I used to frequent (and from which I was banned after expressing pleasure at the passing of Ruth Buzzy Ginsburg). One of the longest recent threads pertained to criticism of the club’s own fans for a chant directed at an opposing player that included the phrase “Chelsea rent boy”. My gosh, they all had the vapors over such blatant homophobia. The faggotry is completely off the charts; it makes the decision to walk away so much easier.

          • That’s pretty bad alright, but given what I’ve heard about soccer/football fans, I’m not terribly surprised. AINO football and basketball fans don’t seem to have sunk quite to that level of pozitry quite yet. Of course, the very best thing would be for them to give up on sports altogether. That may be happening, but if so, it’s happening pretty slowly.

          • But the modern iteration of Chelsea have been the biggest rent boys in sports since the Colorado Avalanche and until Man City ramped up.

            Truth hurts, I guess.

          • [Please forgive what is no doubt my very outdated knowledge of UK slang.]

            You’re just tired of it all? Totally fagged?

            You could say, I suppose “Oh bugger it all!” but are you afraid it might just encourage them?

            Finally, as the meme goes, you guys speak really good English, for Europeans 😀

          • I don’t recall the Avalanche being egregious spenders during their late-90s prime. No worse than the Red Wings, Leafs, or Rangers.

            No one, however, can compare to the giants of European football, with first Chelsea and then Man City completely destroying a fairly level playing field.

          • KGB-

            The removal of the Nordiques from Quebec to found the Avalanche and the entire Eric Lindros debacle was the most disgusting, mercenary spectacle in pro sports at the time.

        • Now that one jab is
          [queue Angel Chorus sound]
          [bass announcer voice w/ reverb:] Fully approved!
          And no doubt many more to follow, I hope that Z may devote an(other) issue to the follow-on consequences. At the very least, we can expect them to tighten the screws, trying to make the shot mandatory everywhere they can. I can only imagine how much more divisive this is going to make the whole country. Petty tyrants in government and corporate are going to be wetting their pants, they are so eager. I expect the lawyers and courts are going to be busy too. “Interesting times!”

    • The aspect of freedom to associate, as in moving to White enclaves, is being eroded and will continue to erode. It’s just a matter of time. Covid will pass as the reality of the disease can’t be changed, regardless of the 24/7 government propaganda. It simply must burn itself out. The forced integration is a long term process and will continue to metastasize. It has its own timetable.

      • I kind of wonder if the left would agree to this deal. All illegal immigrants and there descendants can stay in the us but they can only live west of the 97th meridian and south of the 37th parallel.

        I mean would having all of them live there be that big of an issue if they only lived there. I say this half in jest of course.

        • Problem is that these “immigrants” by and large are not able to strive and survive in a 21st century, 1st world, technological society. They will be a drag on the economy and grow the welfare State. Now if they were restricted to “no welfare” or deportation if they become wards of the State, then you’re on to something.

          BTW, if you think this is bullshit, the above policy was how things were once upon a time when we were sane. My father needed a sponsor to obtain a VISA and the agreement was that the sponsor would pick up the costs if my father became indigent. Welfare/unemployment meant a revocation of the VISA.

          • That allows for immigration to remain extremely limited, as it should. It’s not going to kill a country and its culture to allow the odd foreign spouse, in fact it can in some instances strengthen the native gene pool — when you look at the Amish, you can see that generations of very restricted intermarriage has had genetic consequences — but there has to be a well-controlled pinch point that keeps immigration safe, legal, and rare.

    • I strongly disagree that masks/Covid are more important than race/HBD. The former is transitory and easily repaired while the latter is permanent and irreparable.

      I am frustrated by all the energy put into opposing masks and mandates. The energy is almost entirely misdirected from more important issues.

      Sure, the Covid restrictions may be a Trojan Horse for tyranny but if the white race dies, I don’t care if the non-whites live in tyranny. Honestly, most of them will probably like it.

      • But it’s the same fight. Masks dehumanize us. Race reminds us who we are.

        People are finally starting to take ownership of their identity as human beings.

      • The combination of chronic hypoxia, not being able to properly detoxify through natural respiration, and psychosis generated by this pointless, tyrannical and idiotic mask wearing will kill us faster and more efficiently than immigration/replacement ever could. People have to pull their heads out of their butts, grown a pair, and stop being afraid of shadows. It’s sickening to watch.

  10. To base the nation on biological reality or race realism is a fungible concept. Most Americans are an amalgamation of ethnicities if not races. Even those of Anglo Saxon heritage, if you go back far enough, are a fusion of peoples. The current definition of “white” is sociological and malleable. Hence “the Jew thing.”

    Take the most extreme, recent, Western example of racialism: Naziism. How tortured it became. Goering put no stock in it and Der Fuehrer had geopolitical designs, not primarily racial ones, on the Slavs. Speer said that Himmler’s race mysticism was a mere annoyance.

    So today: those of European heritage whose ancestors arrived before and after the Civil War have, by now, been grafted onto/into the white race by the passage of time. Racial America will likely be a phase. How many Amerindians are saying, “Native American? I’m Cheyenne. Those Navajos and Apaches are furriners.”

    • Before Columbus Native Americans probably thought of themselves entirely in terms of their tribe and in opposition to neighboring tribes, Cheyenne, Comanche, Apache etc etc. Today they have a strong Native American identity exactly b/c they recognize that this makes them distinct from everyone who came after. Likewise if there had only been whites in America it would probably matter more if you were Irish, Italian or Polish. The large influx of non-whites is exactly why a white identity is emerging. And, judging by Native Americans that seems to be a long-term phenomenon.

      • Very true. Most Indian tribe names, such as “Sioux” means “humans,” in distinction to non-Sioux, who are “not-humans.” The tribes saw themselves as the sole “real people” in distinction to all other tribes; thus the incredibly barbaric warfare practices such as torturing to death all captured enemies, be they warrior, woman, or children.

        • ‘Sioux’ is a name given to them by their enemies, meaning something like snake. They usually refer to themselves with names like Lakota, Nakota, etc… which do mean something like ‘human being’. Same is true of most of the other tribes — the name that sticks is usually the name given by their enemes fifty yards up river.

    • The idea that you cannot tell a Southren good ok boy from a White Caucasian Ukrainian immigrant is laughable on its face. The “if you go back far enough, therefore Juice” silliness is just a logical fallacy.
      Not often that you see a reductio ad absurdum in the wild. If you go back far enough, wolves are the same as dogs. Can you tell a meaningful difference between a sheep dog and a gray wolf, though? You can, just as you can easily discern meaningful distinctions of american heritage whites versus other white Caucasian groups. Now, there are 2 (or 3) different groups of heritage American Caucasian Whites (Southrens, Yankees, Continental/Other aka Midlanders). And that affirms the HBD point: the Celts, Scots Irish and Anglo-Saxons of the 1600s have melded with those who came in the 1800s yo make the Southern Nation by now because of the shared genetics and thus culture. But the 2″+” groups just shows that you can make a meaningful disctinction that is readily observable and repeatable.

      • So the more shared genetics, the quicker the melding—which is why I never delve into distinctions of various ethnies such as Scot vs Italian. I’m certain there are many, but they pale in relationship to White vs Black differences. Stick with the four main races and you’ll do fine in figuring a path forward.

      • Yes, there are difference among whites, but there is also vastly more overlap than there is with people of other races. I’m a white West Texan and am doubtless quite different from a white Minnesotan. However much I may differ from that Minnesotan, however, I share far more with him than I ever will with a Dallas negro.

  11. “America is just an idea, so a citizen is someone who agrees with that idea.”

    “America” was and is not an idea. It was and is a contract among those people who created this country and their posterity. Since we are no longer one people, those that wish to destroy America feel that the “peoples” that did not create this nation should not have to abide by a contractual relationship with the creators. Once a nation is no longer tethered to an agreed upon covenant, the rules must be constantly changed, since the denizens of that nation have nothing in common with each other. The rule changers then become the de facto rulers.

    • That’s it. At the beginning, America was an idea—but that idea was confounded with race (White). Once Whites declined in America that idea was shown to be not universal in nature (i.e., among the races). Whites tried. They tried hard (and still do) to prove the idea’s universality, but the experiment is over. It has failed. Time to move on.

  12. I read Z-man’s Taki article a few moments ago. Lol! Corpulent Kevin Williamson!

    I’m not surprised that bed-head Boris and other European leaders are fighting over who gets the most Afghan refugees.

  13. “In the end, Steve Sailer’s approach was rooted in a misunderstanding of what lies behind things like open borders.”

    Is it a misunderstanding, though? Sailer and those like him strike me as people who realize the truth about HBD but want to avoid any repercussions from acknowledging it. In other words, they want to have it both ways.

    I also disagree with you about the point of open borders being the result of a fanatically ideological belief in the universality of man. The point is White genocide, and always has been.

    • Reductionism is comforting, but it leads to the sorts of errors like citizenism. Humans are believing machines.

      • Joel Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center keeps an updated graphic of the decline in the White population in his office. Yes, he’s a grifter and a liar but not atypical. I listen to what these people say, and a common theme is the celebration of the White race’s imminent death.

        I readily acknowledge what Glenfilthie’s description, which is similar to yours, is a widespread phenomenon but those in power usually subscribe to the Potok view and they are the ones with the power to throw the border open.

        • Minor correction: It’s Mark Potok.

          Your point is basically correct, though. It’s difficult to grasp all of the motivations behind the deliberate sabotage of The West by our elites, or the motivations of folks who run elite-favored organizations such as the SPLC. How can we really know? Nevertheless, we can read in the statements and actions of some of them a virulent hatred for those of European descent. “Abolish Whiteness” is one particularly disturbing rallying cry that at least some of them promote. Maybe we should take these parasites at their word when they say such things and prepare accordingly.

          • There was once a guy named Noel Ignatiev–fortunately, now deceased–who created and edited an academic journal called Race Traitor. That journal’s motto, which appeared on the title page of every issue was, “Treason to the white race is a service to humanity.” I don’t suppose I have to tell you Ignatiev’s religion and ethnicity.

        • I know a Jewish guy who collect Kiss memorabilia. I don’t doubt that operations like the SPLC attract all sorts of nutters, but that does not mean they speak for the ruling class. Again, it is useful to personalize these things. It makes people willing to fight, but let’s not confuse rhetoric for analysis.

          • Point taken, but the Ruling Class has been somewhat vocal in the motivation of many behind leaving the border wide open.

            But I can’t quantify how many, that point is true, although it’s more than a mere anecdote here and there. Columns such as “Yes, We Can Replace Them” and Bill Kristol’s nuttery about the decadence of the White working class reflect comments increasingly voiced by those in actual power with the ability to enforce the law.

          • Not sure what would be all that strange about a Jewish guy collecting memorabilia concerning a Jewish band.

      • Humans may be believing machines, but different groups can believe different things.

        Why can’t the push for open borders be a combination of different groups believing different things to be true?

        Progressive and conservative whites (and some Jews) may believe that in people being malleable, so why not let everyone in.

        But many Jews, especially powerful Jews, may believe that gentile whites, especially Christian whites, are an existential threat to the Jewish people, and a way to reduce or eliminate that threat is to destroy their ability to mobilize all of society against Jews, i.e. make them minorities in what was their own country.

        Then you have the leaders of various ethnicities who understand that their power is increased with more of their co-ethnics, so open borders works for that reason.

        Etc, etc.

        My point is that different people could be motivated by different belief systems. Some of those belief system may be mundane and practical, others wildly false and insane.

        The push for open borders is likely a combination of groups believing different things but all of those beliefs point to flooding the white countries with non-whites.

          • Quite true. No matter how good someone might be at rationalizing their political beliefs to make them sound practical, if you peel back enough layers, the source is always something spiritual/moral.

            We are always the hero in our personal drama.

    • Having come from the Hive, I can assure you that you are incorrect about the white genocide aspect. My mother is an elderly radical progressive shitlib that thinks the only way to end war and conflict is for us to all interbreed, and a glorious age will dawn when everyone is a muddy shade of brown. In her defense, she lives in an affluent white neighbourhood and the only mud people she deals with are the obedient and well behaved contracted workers and servants. She thinks they all love her – and I can’t wait until that old bitch ends up in a home staffed by $5.00/hour vibrants.

      • There’s the useful idiots, and there’s the people at the top promoting this. Obviously your shit lib grandma doesn’t want white genocide, but then again she never controlled the border policy anyways.

        The people who actually control these things clearly do want to kill off all white people, and people like Rubin have said so in the NYT.

        • It would have to be as you say, B. Further on down the neoliberal food chain are the true believers.

        • I wonder if the Jews, by and large that means Ashkenazim, have really thought through the whole “white genocide” thing and its implications for them. I don’t want to get into the racial purity pissing contest here, but for my money, anyone calling himself a “Jew” who is of European ancestry is probably genetically indistinguishable, on the average, from any randomly-selected White of European ancestry.

      • “… glorious age will dawn when everyone is a muddy shade of brown.”

        These people are biologically ignorant. This will NEVER happen. A thought experiment: a plague comes and wipes out all but 50 million of the most genetically and culturally homogeneous Chinese. The survivors then spread across the whole Earth.

        They now live and reproduce in all the various ecosystems of the Earth, each of which has different natural selection regimes. If you split a homogenous population and put them under different selection regimes, they will diverge both genetically and culturally over time. One can call this speciation or raciation: the emergence of new species or subspecies. Our 50 million thought-experiment Chinese would eventually differentiate into new groups who would come to see the rest as ‘other’.

        Diversity is built into the mathematical understructure of physical reality, ex: varying of solar insolation by latitude and consequent latitudinal variation in non-sapient fauna and flora. Destroying white people is not only not going to bring on utopia, but will destroy the people who have done far more than everyone else put together to alleviate human suffering.

        There is no escape from diversity conflict. It can only be managed. The best way to minimize it is with ethnostates and federations of ethnostates which work together to cultivate mutual respect for the borders which are a prerequisite for social harmony.

        • You’re overthinking it, perhaps. Someone (a “conservative” someone no less) in the Instapundit comments pushed this at one point: “once we’re all brown peace will reign”, ignoring the fact that there are already many, many countries where that hypothesis can be put to the test.

          To your point though, and this is something Sailer noted no less, high-mulattos inevitably end up ruling these brown backwaters, and they prefer “blonds” and that doesn’t have to be repeated by too many generations before they’re as pink as the president of Mexico. For most high-end pols south of the border, if canned-tan was eliminated they’d be whiter than the Euros from which they are descended.

      • Building upon the “people are believing machines,” comments above, I also note that our belief systems are formed almost entirely, I’d argue, from our surroundings and experiences. For example, Whites unfamiliar with Blacks tend to have a too-optimistic vision of them. Nice upper Midwestern Whites were more in favor of Obama than Whites in the Deep South. This, it was argued, was due to the simple fact that the Northerners lack much real-world contact with the Negro. In all matters, not just race relations, we judge the unseen by what we’ve seen. Antidotes exist, but they require practical knowledge about the real world and disciple — two things always in short supply.

        I too have met your Mom’s idealism, stated in the humorous, perhaps sardonic “Let’s just f—k until we’re all the same color.” Sounds good in theory, but 200,000 (or more) years of human existence says that tribalism works towards an opposite outcome. Over longer periods, natural selection says the same.

  14. America is the product of a people who secured the blessings of liberty for themselves and their posterity.

    No, it’s the product of the continuation of the War of the Three Kingdoms, fought in the colonies by the Cromwellian Puritans against the hereditary British monarchy. No vote was ever taken to commence this war, no democratic process was involved. Those unwise enough to object were tarred and feathered or forced to leave for Canada.

    Prior to the engagement that produced America much of that area was considered to be the “property” of the Dutch, until the Treaty of Breda in 1667, the Dutch receiving control over what seemed to be more important at that time in Sumatra while the British settled for the North American eastern seaboard. Completing the transition was the renaming of New Amsterdam as New York.

    The inhabitants already living in the “New World” had no say in any of the maneuvers of the invaders and received none of the blessings of liberty for themselves or their descendants.

    As soon as the Puritan Americans had won their revolution they immediately turned their attention to subjugating the Episcopalian southern states, producing the War Between the States that plunged the South into economic and political darkness for over a hundred years and continued the effort to eradicate the indigenous people.

    • Two wrinkles in that account. One, many Cavaliers were willing partners with the New England types in the war for Independence. They were in a strong position to secure their own blessings in the 1780s but for whatever reason didn’t foresee the perniciousness of the Yankees. Two, remaining in the Empire or emigrating to Canada would, in 2021, have left you in the same pozzed-out dystopia. In many respects you’d be even worse off.

      • It’s true that while the tidewater planters had zero in common with the Bostonian Brahmins they had their own issues with the United Kingdom, one of the most important being debts to British consignment agents that financed their opulent lifestyles, see:
        Breen, T. H. Tobacco Culture: the Mentality of the Great Tidewater Planters on the Eve of Revolution. Princeton, N.J.: Princeton UP (1985).

        Life in Prince Rupert’s Land doesn’t seem to have been all the terrible, at least compared to some other spots in the western hemisphere.

  15. “In the end, the nation of ideas side was probably more realistic than their critics on the biological reality side. They accepted the premise of cultural Marxism, which is that control of the institutions is what matters in current politics.”

    This is true, but funny thing about institutions is that their authority erodes over time if they are handled poorly. I’m not talking about revolts, but societal apathy.

    If humans start suffering & lose ability to provide for their families, they’ll instinctually look for a stronger horse & stop giving a damn about globalist owned institutions.

    Basically humans need a daddy, if governments & corporations behave like a bad daddy for too long, then the common folk will look for a better daddy someplace else, they’ll find someone somewhere. It’s not as if anyone saw Trump coming.

  16. Every since the evolution of complex language, our species has been “educating” its young (nurturing) with ideas that help them to survive & thrive in the local environment of their birth. And for most of our history, this education was centered around hard-earned & long-standing wisdom that “worked.” Most larger societies eventually formalized this practice via “religious training” which ensured message consistency, repetition-based learning, & reinforcement via praise/punishment feedback.

    This ancient & successful social mechanism has now been hijacked by Progressives via their infiltration & domination of key institutions (particularly public schools). They have cast aside ancient wisdom in favor of an artificial philosophy of social organization that they believe is “better” than the old ways. In doing so, they are fighting against our innate (DNA based) nature, and is the source of much cognitive dissonance & mental illness in our current times. And they did this as a covert & insidious power grab hiding behind an altruistic mask of moral righteousness. We were fooled in slow motion and bribed with our own wealth via taxation & money printing.

    You can’t beat this freight train of evil with fancy words, or voting harder, or even a conventional uprising. You have to attack the problem at its core. Disease cells have invaded the body, metastasized, & necrosis is beginning to set in. In the next few years, either the disease or the curative antibodies will prevail. Time will tell.

    • I like the model of disease and antibodies. I think it works.

      Speaking of antibodies, did you see those guys in Portland flip over that antifa van this weekend?

    • I’ve heard that our rulers have a totally not mandatory vaccine that should fix you right up.

      • I’m not sure how original this idea is, but here goes:
        What if the jab becoming “Fully Approved” is the latest Party Loyalty Test? Even before Monday, it was already required in many places (speaking only of USA for now): No jab, no job some places; universities requiring it for students, and even proposed/in practice for some retail in NYC and LA. Now with full approval, the floodgates are opened. How is this going to play out? Employees choose between continued employment or being fired? Note yet a new version of dictatorial powers-by-corporate. Just like social media: it’s not the government infringing anyone’s rights, its private entities (or local government.) Are we to split into two societies, like the Irish with their Protestant and Catholic parallel institutions? Or will we get some version of the Vax Pass, or a new version of the Yellow armband for the unvaxxed? This is not curing a disease or a public health policy, this (to me) is political and social dynamite. Bring it on, I guess. The sooner we get this crap over and done with, perhaps we can return to some semblance of real life.

  17. “The main difference is the Left thinks that culture is the product of institutions while the Right thinks it is the product of magic.”

    I would argue that this is only true of the institutional right and their shepherded Fox News viewing flocks. The genuine intellectual right knows better. But we all know this, because that’s (for the most part) us.

    • Yeah I was under the impression that the original conservatives’ (Burke) emphasis on traditions and institutions distinguished them from their more liberal peers.

    • Dissident Right: There’s a simple reason Adam Smith popped up in Scotland.
      Normie Right: I hope people read him in China. That would make all the difference.
      Establishment Right: If Pakistan were not so poor in 1776, an Adam Smith could’ve popped up there too.
      Establishment Left: Smith benefited from Britain’s slave trade.
      Normie Left: I heard there was a former black slave from New England who came up with liberalism first.
      Dissident Left: I don’t care where Smith came from or what race he is. Capitalism denied my aunt health care.

  18. I think a large part of the problem is that everything we get about “political philosophy” is at best a very distorted and partial picture. People are never taught the context of statements like Aristotle’s “man is the political animal.” This is largely because the teachers, being dimbulbs even by the abysmal standards of the modern university, don’t know the context, but it’s hard to remember it even if you know it…

    But it’s critical. Aristotle didn’t mean “human beings are political animals.” He meant Greeks are political animals, and when you come right down to it, he probably meant Athenians are political animals (though of course he wouldn’t say that around Alexander and Philip of Macedon). Same deal with Early Modern political philosophy. Hobbes’s “social contract” was always a thought experiment, not anthropology (he himself said so, but everyone skips over that part), so when he seemed to suggest that the North American Indians were living in “the state of nature,” he was being metaphorical — of course they don’t count in discussions of political theory, because they’re beyond the realm of the political.

    It would never have occurred to Hobbes to let, say, London’s large resident Italian community into English political life, even if they “signed” the “social contract,” because it’s not FOR them — they’re Italians-in-England, not Englishmen-in-embryo, who only have to sign their paperwork to become officially English. Nor did Hobbes expect, during his own long sojourns in France, to be treated as a Frenchman — he was quite explicitly an Englishman, a part (or so he supposed) of a government-in-exile. He would’ve considered it an impossibility for him, Thomas Hobbes, to ever be a Frenchman, and not because TH was a world-class jingo. Sure, sure, the French have their own “social contract,” their own “leviathan,” but it’s for Frenchmen only. The “leviathan” is a corporate person (the origin of that phrase, if Z’s readers feel like blowing a few Lefty college kids’ skulls); you can’t “contract” to create the leviathan if you’re not one of the people.

    When it comes right down to it, “political philosophy” doesn’t exist. It’s just a series of more or less successful ad hoc justifications for the “nous” (to be pretentious about it, as I’ve seen people doing lately) of a people.

    • As Zman once said (hopefully I’m not misrepresenting here), the entire catalog about how people interact together is written about white people. That’s the context. It doesn’t even try to describe relations with Africans, Polynesians, and Mayan peasant people.

    • Severian: Yes, this struck me when reading Arthur Herman’s “The Cave and the Light” with my son. All this history of politics and philosophy originated with and was posited on the experience of the White European. None of it has proven fungible. But justification or not, that “nous” exists. And if it’s not the product of institutions or magic, then it’s the product of nature: countless individual actions by individual people who share a language and history and genetic heritage.

      Culture doesn’t float around in the air like those deadly covid spores that Sailer continues to obsess over. It cannot be put on like a brown rapefugee donning a new pair of jeans and an ‘murrican-themed t shirt. Yet it exists, and its normal genetic transmission can be hijacked – centuries of Mohammedan invasion and pressure has clearly demonstrated this. The Puritans came to North America precisely because they were concerned their English children were becoming too Dutch.

      But this hijacking or derailing appears to require total local immersion and/or the assertion of raw power, along with a certain degree of genetic relatedness. While a percentage of Balkan Christians converted and intermarried, the nucleus of the people remained defiantly Christian and non-Turkish. Same thing today – thus globohomo’s turning America’s previously somewhat ordered public spaces into a melange of multicultural madness, and the rabid insistence that obeisance be payed to gutted and vampirized institutions.

    • Severian, I hear ya, but really….what is your idea of “the people”? Who are they? You, me, the folks on this blog? The follow on generations—all—are predictably declining in IQ, and the minorities (under 18 a majority of population) never had that much to begin with. So we teach them what…abstract political ideas? Aristotle? Plato? Dead White men all.

      Not to black pill folk, just to say if you want to change things, you need to reach an audience beyond White intellectuals.

      • I wish I knew. In my own black pill moments, based on long experience of the American “university,” I think White people are already dead. The kids I “taught” looked White, a lot of them, but intellectually, culturally, dare I say spiritually, they were mystery meat, negrified sludge who actually preferred the lowest common denominator…

        Nonetheless, I persisted, because what else is there? Try, and you will most likely fail. Don’t try, and failure is guaranteed. I gave it my best, and though I’m retired now I still live my life as best I can within the Western tradition.

        Maybe it’s all in vain, but I don’t care. It’s like the Covid thing. Yeah, it’s a real disease. No, I don’t want to catch it. But if I do, so what? I’ll take reasonable precautions — the same ones I take during every flu season — but I’m not going to live like a f*cking cockroach. That is all.

    • It always comes back to the same thing, doesn’t it? A nation can tolerate a small number of “out-groups” living as an out-group. But it will never survive mass immigration. That’s what happened to the US in the 19thC., culminating in the Immigration Commision and ultimately the ports of entry such as Ellis Island.

  19. OT but what has gotten into some well known bad thought men like Sailer, Taleb and A Karlin among others. Their Covid panic seems genuine which is rather depressing. Sailer is a very interesting case in that he prides himself on being a data guy but had no interest in the statistical anomalies of the voter fraud. More intriguing is how he is an unreformed Covidian in spite of the official rigged stats not pointing to Covid at the new black plague and Pfizer’s own study showing only 1 out of 1000 in both the vaccinated pool and the placebo pool dying over 6 months and no lower death count in the vaccinated group. Even if you do not delve into the numbers and see the nonsense, on the surface Covid is nothing like it is presented.

    Not to be out done, Taleb is demanding you take the vaxx because you have a social responsibility to do so.

    One of the sad takes was Karlin bragging about how high IQ believe in masks more than the rest when the overwhelming evidence of Science!!! studies say masks don’t work on viruses like coronavirus.

    I don’t want to judge writers who cover a lot of ground on one or two issues but some big names on our side of the divide look like fools over Covid. I have tuned the three of them and others out over this so I hope that they have come to their senses and I just don’t know it.

    P. S. Now scientists are working on a vaccine for the vaccine which of course is supposed to pose no health risk

      • Judgement Day is coming. Whether one admits it or not, we all feel it. Whether we die at 19 or 89.

        Steve would benefit from spending his senior years preparing spiritually for death and judgement, rather than (unsuccessfully) trying to run from it.

    • OT but what has gotten into some well known bad thought men like Sailer, Taleb and A Karlin among others. Their Covid panic seems genuine which is rather depressing.

      On a personal note, I was called a “right-wing crank” by Greg Johnsson for calling the vaccine “experimental”. Interesting choice of ad hom.

      • Felix: I remember that! I tried to post a comment in your defense but it was placed in moderator hell. Of late, Greg does not seem to be pushing his Covid beliefs down the throats of readers nearly so much, and most commenters avoid the subject. Dare those on the right agree to disagree? Even re ‘deadly’ Covid? One can only hope . . .

        • Tbf, I think his modbot is outsorced and rather random, like Zmans. I remember thinking “when is he going to modblock me?”, but he didn’t.

      • “…for calling the vaccine “experimental””

        In feminized globohomo world, guilt is not about facts but attitude and feelings. And your skin color doesn’t help either.

    • Apparently the crotchety old guy blew it pretty badly yesterday, failed in audition as a pitchman for our thing. Too much of a good thing, one might say, way too much.

      It seemed to be an argument on two different steps of the ladder. One was debating the ads, the other the ad agency (and quite confusedly.)

      The question, then- should the Zman and his surprising inner circle of luminaries (akin to Tolkien’s weekly table)- should DR intellectuals focus their outreach on the Sailers, Talebs, and Karlins? Would that gain an echo effect by the more widely known mainstream?

      Also, since I reliably rise to the Zman’s bait, I, as a member of the People’s Front of Judea, hereby denounce the Judean People’s Front.

      • That’s what I love about the comments….gotta keep that sense of humor.
        And, both the PFJ and JPF are mere shills. The Front for the People of Judea is the place to be!
        ; ))

    • The plague terror has revealed them as mere “racist liberals,” as the few good commies always said they were.

      They share dirt people’s sense of broadly racial “concentric loyalty” but are desperate to wash the dirt off by autistically mathematizing that sense (away) and bowing to any bluecheck who uses a number.

      That what little corona data isn’t trash contradicts The Experts and The Science makes them defend The Experts and The Science even harder. They’d sacrifice civilization for an “even a racist can do the math” retweet from Vox.

    • If I had to speculate, I’d attribute Sailer’s response to COVID as a cautious recognition of it’s impact on co-morbidities as a cancer survivor with a compromised immune system. I took the jab because I’m a diabetic, so I get that angle. I’m not quite so concerned about other people’s actions because we probably have very different risk-reward profiles.
      With Taleb, it’s probably even more nuanced. Rather than representing an actual threat, COVID represents how antifragile the global communities’ response to a Black Swan pandemic is in reality. His response is likely motivated by a desire to shock the masses from their complacency and drive policies that will increase antifragility in the event of a true pandemic. Perhaps he simply refuses to acknowledge that such a project is unlikely to succeed at the macro level and, thus, unwisely encourages authoritarian measures.
      I don’t know Karlin’s work well enough to comment on his motivations.
      Bottom line: don’t throw the baby out with the bath water because someone opines dogmatically about something beyond their particular expertise. In all thins, cum grano salis.

    • Sometimes I get the sense that Karlin’s Corona fanaticism is simply one elaborate, extended episode of ironic trolling meant to needle his commenters.

    • “OT but what has gotten into some well known bad thought men like Sailer, Taleb and A Karlin among others. Their Covid panic seems genuine which is rather depressing. ”

      I’ve it read Sailer and Taleb, so this may not apply to Karlin, but not those men are data analysts, not critics. By that I mean they rely on “Official” statistics to perform analysis, which in turn means they take the validity of the data for granted. Most of their quibbling regards the interpretation of data and what it really means, but you won’t, say, see Sailer arguing that crime data is fundamentally incorrect or misreported. Thus, when analyzing current data, they will take it for granted as a matter of habit.

      Regarding election anomalies: I’m personally inclined to remain agnostic about fraud, unless there is a smoking gun (ballots conclusively shown to be forged or improper). There’s a lot of propagate from both sides regarding the results, which has only muddied the waters. Moreover, atypical results do occur, albeit infrequently, and I’m inclined to believe that the candidate most likely to get arrival results would be the person who is the most atypical candidate: Trump.

    • Thanks for your views. I’ve spent quite a few hours over at Unz on a couple of COVID themed stories. He even set up a special “isolation ward,” he was getting so much “Anti-vaxxer” traffic, the reasonable as well as the nutcases. While I’ve read only a taste of his total output (Reading him looks like it’d be a full-time job!), what’s curious with his Covid articles is his professed disinterest. He claims to have taken the jab(s) and has no interest in the vaccine conspiracies. I called him disingenuous. He didn’t respond to me directly, but from his replies to others, it’s obvious he takes some interest in the issues.

      In one of the threads I posted a “Why you shouldn’t trust the numbers” piece, sort of a summary of faults others had raised, coupled with my own thoughts. I posted a piece of that earlier today.

      It’s kind of fun to bait the pro-vaxx people (on other web sites). For example, I recently said essentially, down here in maskless FL, supposedly hard hit, I’ve not even heard a sniffle or sneeze while out in public. Pro-Vax responds with a Tampa piece about overloaded hospital. I reply that it’s NORMAL for hospitals to try and keep as many beds full as they can, since it maximizes use of an expensive resource.

      To be honest, I haven’t checked even the local news, nor the statistics because — as I’ve already said — I don’t trust them, and neither should anybody else. I’m not as denier as those who say the disease is completely fake, but I can see their point: you have to look really, really hard to find someone who’s actually got a cold or seasonal allergy (typical Delta symptoms, not at Death’s Doorstep, as the media would have us believe). The scare tactics, the emphasis on the horrible cases (are they even real? Who knows!), are crazy. They are pushing propaganda, not anything remotely like an accurate view of reality.

      That last comment is something I often repeat — but not often enough. Even in normal times, most news media is an extremely poor way to be informed of the real world; even if there is no ideological bias (Ha!), there is is the problem of cherry picking the sensational, lurid, often violent exceptional events of the day — a most inaccurate way to calibrate our view of reality. Does looking a photo of the wreckage of a jumbo jet accurately inform one of the statistical safety of air travel? Of course it doesn’t.

  20. Goethe had it right: “Das Urbild ist das Bild und Spiegelung.” Or, “The original image is the image and the reflection.” When you look at Monticello or read a Nathaniel Hawthorne book or look at a majestic oil painting or listen to complex cello suite, you are seeing European genes/soul moving from the Ur/platonic into something tangible (the sound, the paintings, the buildings), which, received by the rest of us less talented folk, gets spread and becomes the culture (the reflection). It’s not a question of which comes first or a chain of causality (at least not the way Goethe sees it, I think he’s right). It’s just a question of whether you’re looking with your naked eye (culture), a magnifying glass (conservatism) or a microscope (genetic science, metaphysics).

    • That was a beautiful comment. Its been a while since I’ve read Goethe. He never fails to impress. Unfortunately he seems almost unknown in the US.

      • I have him on my list. Even Nietzsche, to my knowledge, had only good things to say about him! Nothing bad! And that is quite an endorsement, coming from him. 🙂

    • This facet of Western civilization is what seems to most gall the blank slate reformer – that a culture (any culture really) is particular to its people and not readily transposed to or adopted by others.

    • read a Nathaniel Hawthorne book

      Kinda lost me there. In my youth I found his writing fascinating both in content and construction, but in my latter years it’s hard to escape the idea that it’s all just pretentious, Yankee naval gazing.

  21. I used to love the idea of America as a country of liberty and justice for all, the classical civnat position. It turns out that only works if 85+% of the population is white. As soon as that is no longer the case, ancient instinctive fears of ‘the other’ come into play and everything goes tribal. Today secession is no longer taboo even by governors and other high profile people and even the non-president has weighted in on how strong the government is compared to those who might wish to overthrow it (‘F-15s and nukes’).

    The problem is, if ‘the true essence of America’ is not the declaration and constitution (and pieces of parchment, however beautifully worded, do not seem to be sufficient to constitute the basis of a ‘nation’), it is not easy to answer what America really is. A very unsatisfactory answer could be that it is where the various European ethnicities went to blend into a new form of white, w 40% German and English, some Italian, Irish, East European and so. But, aside from the fact that this is increasingly meeting with competition from non-European origin people, it hardly seems to supply the national myth that is necessary as well. I’m on my way out of the civnat dead-end and often feel very far from where I started my journey. But I have not found answers that make sense to all the questions that opened up when civnat patriotism became unviable. And this is one of them. Historical times are also confusing times.

    • > it is not easy to answer what America really is.

      By far the most apt description was said by James Kirkpatrick of VDARE when he called America “A shopping mall run by lunatics.”

      • That’s a very depressing answer exactly b/c one fears there is some truth to it. If others can’t find a better answer, DR really needs to find one.

        • Moran: The old movie line, “Because we live here” (with all it implies) is sufficient for me. Man (human genetic groups) either holds territory or is conquered and replaced (the women side with whoever is the victor). That is clearly borne out by genetic history.

          • Makes sense, ultimately it is about having a genetic future and that requires a territory and not being replaced or conquered there. At some level it becomes biology and our genetic survival is the bottom line.

      • A shopping mall run by lunatics.

        Full of non-white people with no real identity, whose entire “identity” has been reduced to being “not white” and “not American”. Who’s entire “culture” has been reduced to superficial things like food and weddings and wearing some colourful clothes.

        Who lecture you that they are more American than you

        • If what an American is is defined by the current owners of our institutions, they’re right. They are more American than us.

          There have been a multitude of cases of people without a country to call their own, and we’re now one of them.

    • American identity is a question because Americans refuse to settle down. Since the beginning we’ve only become more restless and unhappy.

      • There are two undercurrents to paintersforms observations. First are the Locust class, the people who moved from boom area to the next boom area, imposing the same nonsense social agenda as they go and decimating the locals as they move on. This, as far as I can tell, has been happening here since Jamestown. They are very happy and self-satisfied so long as they can ignore their own mortality. They get a blindfold and a last cigarette when the balloon goes up.
        Second is the more frequently discussed economic diaspora due to the financialization of society. I’m part of that. We moved away for “good colleges” and then stayed away for “good jobs” and “promotional opportunities.” We are not just unhappy, we hate it and wish it were otherwise, and try desperately to escape (I mostly escaped, most do not).

        • Exactly.

          As a corollary, you hear a lot about divide and conquer along ideological lines, but it hardly matters when extended families and communities can’t stay together.

          The old way was might-is-right and tribalism, which has its problems. The new way of rule-of-law and commerce has its own problems that are proving to be as bad or worse imo.

    • Almost seems like history, or the future is creating itself. Tolstoy seems to hint at this in W&P

  22. The ideal society of our elites is a world where all the plebs interbreed to the extent that everyone is a mutt with no ethnic identity. The miscegenation commercials are just the beginning, as at the current pace it will be considered immoral for a white person to marry another white within a couple of generations.

    Add this to the new inverted morality is to care for the needs of strangers before one’s own relations, and the wants of a debauched minority before the majority, which is suicidal for a society unless everyone is part of the same societal and economic blob, which is also where they are going with global culture and global finance. They’re going for cape-sh*t and equity as far as the eye can see.

    The scariest part is they might just succeed.

    • It’s remarkable how much this poz has affected non-whites. Younger generations of non-whites think it’s a good thing to marry out – and not just with white people. Marriages between two shades of POCs are exploding in popularity. Across race, across ethnicities, across caste, across colours.

      Anglo and NW-Euro whites seem to be less inclined to race mix than non-whites these days.

      But you’re right, they are still coming for us. Remember that negative reaction when the Peloton ad just showed a white, blond family? In the future our social credit score will go down for marrying somebody of the same race.

      • I dunno, it just seems to me that if you’re a black man with any brains at all, and you look at the choices available to you within your own race, you might start to look elsewhere. Every intelligent black male I know has found a non-black mate. Can’t say I blame them.

        • Black females who want a man to actually stick around marry outside their race also, and who can blame them?

          • Oh! Oh! Me! I can blame them! Stay in your own lane, to do otherwise is self-hatred that you forcefully inflict on any progeny you are unfortunate enough to bear.

          • At least in USA, the female Melanic Hominid© faces daunting challenges, should she seek one of her own race. Black men are disproportionately in jail/prison, dead, or just worthless pieces of shit, by the time a woman seeks a mate (this in some sense akin to traditional “looking for a worthy mate,” not just this month’s sex partner).

            Pity the poor incel Asian male, the inseam-scratching compliment of the Black female. In many Asian cultures, the strong preference for males leads to aborting most of the female embryos, having consequences they hadn’t envisioned. 😀

          • Damn straight! Reversion to the mean is not taken seriously enough, or understood. That’s why such interbreeding is problematical—we are not taking hybrid vigor here. More like putting red socks into a white wash and producing “pink” undies. Not desirable.

      • The crazy thing is if the poz goes on indefinitely race will be a sign of high character. Lefty creating the hierarchy he wants to destroy go figure.

    • Add this to the new inverted morality is to care for the needs of strangers before one’s own relations,

      Blue collar workers, the true enemies of the elite class, know that their employers care more about the needs of strangers than their employees, they value their pet dogs, cats and bettas than either.

    • Coudenhove-Kalergi was writing about his plan for the destruction of ethnic identities about a century ago.

      • A century ago? Dude, hold my beer: Tower of Babel. This is almost literally antediluvian it is so old.

  23. Hey, the idea of debating Citizenism sounds familiar. 😉

    Well done. Unfortunately, I doubt that Steve will take the bait. He’s smart enough to know that he can’t win.

    As to why Citizenism failed, I agree with everything you wrote. Your critique is much deeper and thoughtful than I could ever muster. My own reason for Citizenism being unworkable is much simpler:

    Citizenism demands and assumes that I will give the same loyalty to someone holding a piece of paper – American citizenship – as I do to my own extended family. That’s both morally wrong and practically unrealistic.

    • Mr. Silly Countru,

      You do yourself an injustice: your summation is spot on and bears repeating:
      “Citizenism demands and assumes that I will give the same loyalty to someone holding a piece of paper – American citizenship – as I do to my own extended family. That’s both morally wrong and practically unrealistic.”

    • And our rulers demand that you give this loyalty to anyone and everyone – while Chinese hire Chinese, Jews hire Jews, Indians hire only Indians etc.

    • I recall the debate (and really, Z could probably write a book about the differences) and while I didn’t think either of them was “wrong”, my 15-year ago self found Sailer’s pitch more interesting. It was feasible, perhaps; it would have required elites from all interested parties looking into the abyss and deciding that something more than a shared debt-load is needed to keep a nation together. For instance, to that end, Sailer thought there should be a complete moratorium on immigration until the Citizenism nation could figure out who it was. He has also been partial to tilting economic policy so that, for example, jobs that blacks find themselves in would be higher paying.

      The issue (ignoring it’s foundational issues) always was though that none of that stuff was going to happen

      • Mr. Evil,

        Congratulations on having such a thoughtful son. I expect that we will learn that the bonds of tribe are more powerful to non-whites that a “shared debt-load” and the principles of Citizenship.

        Perhaps the easiest way to demonstrate this to him is that most blacks would clearly rather live without police, even though this will hurt them most, than tolerate a symbol of white authority in their communities.

        Another recent example:

      • One of the more poignant points for me re civnattery is, when has a civnat ever advocated for expropriating and expelling someone who rejected the Proposition? If you reject the Founding Principles, then you should be kicked out, right? Oh, that conflicts with free speech and right-wing civil rights and so cannot be done? Gee, that system seems fundamentally incoherent, a heads I win tails you lose kinda deal.

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