Germany & Iceland

Iceland is famous for its weirdness, which it embraces not just as a marketing campaign for tourism but as a way of living. Unlike the other countries of Europe, it has a well-defined beginning. A Norwegian chieftain named Ingólfur Arnarson and his wife, Hallveig Fróðadóttir settled on the island in the ninth century. Others followed and slowly the population built over time. Like early America, it is a deliberate society created by a founding population.

No other country can tell an origin story like that. This had another benefit in the weirdness department. This isolated population on a volcanic island in the North Atlantic has been a treasure for geneticists. The entire population has been tested and their DNA is in the national database. We know more about the population of Iceland than any population on the planet. This has allowed researchers to confirm much of the origin story, except for the outlandish bits.

Speak with Icelanders and you find out that they are very familiar with their story, but they do not spend a lot of time thinking about it. They know the rest of the world finds this tiny island to be a great curiosity. The tourism rackets now bring millions of people to Iceland every year to gaze upon the weirdness. On the other hand, Iceland has avoided the modern bug. They do not hate themselves. Instead, they have a strong sense of identity but they do not think too much about it.

Contrast this with the Germans. Unlike tiny Iceland, the Germans have a long history, but their origin story is not so clear. Like the rest of the continent, the German people are a blend of many tribes that pushed onto Europe. There is no Ingólfur Arnarson in the story of modern Germany. In fact, Germany is the result of the transition from medieval to modern, as what we think of as the modern state is a collection of states that were at times independent and other times part of an empire.

Of course, a big part of the German identity is the events of the last century, but everyone would just as soon forget about them. Modern Germany is, in part, a giant outdoor museum populated by amnesiacs. Everywhere you look there are reminders of the pre-20th century past. Castles, amazing old villages, cathedrals, and reminders of the cultural achievements of the German people. On the other hand, it is hard to find any reminders of the 20th century.

One result of this is the German people have a strong identity, but they have a difficult relationship with that identity. The laws against mentioning you know who are not so much about you know who coming back in vogue but as a way to anathematize any discussion of that period. This is not a top-down thing. The average German would just as soon forget about the past and embrace the present. In this regard, the Germans are the most modern people in all of Europe.

This is not a terrible thing. Germany is in many ways the model European country in that it strives to have a strong economy and a peaceful society. Even after the waves of migrants were brought in by Merkel, it remains a high trust society. It is not Japan, but it is not France or Italy. Walk around a German city and you feel safe. You know where to go and where not to go, but even where not to go is nothing like you see in France or especially the United States.

In a way, Iceland and Germany are great examples of the modern. One has become a fully modern society without going to war with itself, while the other remains at war with itself as it embraces the modern. Both societies are fully modern, materially, and spiritually, but they got there by different routes. As a result, they both face the same problems that now define the modern age. Those are collapsing TFR and an unwillingness to honestly face up to the problem.

Whenever national leaders talk about fertility, they lay the blame on their favorite bogeyman, rather than the real causes. This post from Iceland University is a great example of blame shifting. They blame the socialist bogeymen of the past, materialism, and individualism, then throw in a new one, climate change. These are people who have lived on a volcano since they were a people. If climate change were a big fear, they would have died off long ago.

Germans just lie about the topic. They have one of the lowest fertility rates in Europe, but they pretend it is getting better. This post from the pandemic years is a good example of the self-delusion. This was a popular narrative in Europe. They were sure lockdowns would result in a baby boom, but when that did not happen, they went about pretending that it happened anyway. Of course, none of these countries report TFR by ethnicity as that would give the game away.

What all this suggests is that it is not the past that haunts the modern West, but the present that is the source of the crisis. Iceland embraces its past and has a collapsing TFR just like Germany, which tries to ignore its past. It should be noted that both societies are extremely feminized. They reek of estrogen. Where that fits on the causal chain is hard to say. What is not hard to figure is that in societies where girls pretend to be boys, the girls do not grow up to be mothers.

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203 thoughts on “Germany & Iceland

  1. To many words to describe failed nations who are disappearing of the face of the earth if not absolute radical change.

  2. The last line of your essay posits a crystal clear thesis. I was introduced this past Monday to a 51 y.o. woman from Finland who has had a long and successful career in technology marketing and sales. She was stunningly beautiful, charming and feminine. I was flooded with mixed emotions. On the one hand I found myself just a bit besotted by her, wishing we’d met twenty years ago under different circumstances. On the other, I couldn’t help feeling a little sad that such a woman hadn’t brought,and wouldn’t be bringing, any children into the world. I’m certain these hypothetical sons or daughters would have been glorious examples of all that is best about the white race. It sometimes seems that the only way to restore Motherhood in the West is to completely dismantle the alternatives; and that is probably impossible this side of an abrupt civilizational collapse.

    • Would have to be some kinda collapse. The careful what you wish for kind. Even in South Africa, where the power and water are lucky to be on half the time, and crime at levels they’d find not just intolerable but unimaginable in Finland, they’re still clinging to the rainbow

      • Maus: “the only way to restore Motherhood in the West is to completely dismantle the alternatives; and that is probably impossible this side of an abrupt civilizational collapse”

        Jeffrey Zoar: “Would have to be some kinda collapse.”

        I hate to be a one-trick-pony, but take a glance at maybe the first minute or two of John Campbell’s new vidya today:

        Just for the first half of 2023:

        24% increase of death rate for 15-19 years old

        23% increase of death rate for 30-34 years old

        25% increase of death rate for 40-44 years old

        Increasing cardiac mortality in all ages.

        Society of Actuaries believes this will continue through 2025 & 2026.

        More info here:

    • Successful career that no one cares about and no one will care about. Some life for a genetic dead end.

  3. Significantly increasing the TFR would mean to undo the philosophical and ideological foundations of Western civilization for the last two centuries: individualism and secularism. It is not going to happen. Like drug-addicts, people think that these poisons are the best thing EVAAAA.

    I don’t say this as somebody lecturing other people but as a rehabilitated drug-addict of these drugs, that prevented me from reproducing until now.

    Today, at the ripe age of 53, I have known that my wife is pregnant. My first child. I cannot be happier.

    • Yesterday, there was a round robin of four different news stories blanketing the innertubes, which looked something like UK Guardian => LA Times => Kaiser Family Foundation => UCLA => UK Guardian, and all of the stories were concerned with the psychological frigidity & psychological impotence of GenZ.

      “Almost half of gen Z viewers want less sex on screen…”

      LA TIMES
      “A ‘failure to launch’: Why young people are having less sex”

      [the spam filter requires that I abbreviate the next two URLs]

      Romance or Nomance?

      “More Young Adult Californians Aren’t Having Sex”

      After I read through all the articles several times, I finally realized that the propagandists had me in an infinite loop of links all curling back upon themselves, but re-reading the articles did give me some extra time to ponder the situation.

      And I thought about two major candidate explanations for this phenomenon [assuming the phenomenon ackshually does exist]:

      1) The V@xxine Industrial Complex & the SSRI Industrial Complex & the Ta1mudvision Industrial Complex & the Scr0tial Media Industrial Complex & the GoySlop Industrial Complex have completely destroyed the GenZ Libido, or else

      2) So many sh!tlib bloodlines were sacrificed at the altar of Griswold v Connecticut and Roe v Wade that there just aren’t all that many sh!tlib children remaining in GenZ, and TradCon bl00dlines are beginning to blossom again & reassert their dominance in the culture.

      I.e. sanity >>>>>> insanity FTW.

      • #2 being a positive scenario, but the present state of Israel being cautionary. Then again, ethnicity does make a difference lol.

  4. “Modern Germany is, in part, a giant outdoor museum populated by amnesiacs. Everywhere you look there are reminders of the pre-20th century past. Castles, amazing old villages, cathedrals, and reminders of the cultural achievements of the German people. On the other hand, it is hard to find any reminders of the 20th century.”

    The Germans did such an unbelievable job of rebuilding from the utter destruction of WWII that they could completely erase reminders of the bad-times with the turn of a screw; But they like to keep some things around, like Zeppelin Field in Nuremburg, so they can put on a morality play for the tourists about Mr. Schickelgruber, and how bad they, the Germans, were, and how they really, really, really hate Nazis and condemn anything remotely resembling a return to Germany for the Germans.

    He hangs over the country like a malignant miasma that will never go away. Personally, I would enjoy visiting the country a lot more if the natives didn’t keep trying to remind me about the Nazis. He was an a-hole. Forget about him and get on with the future.

  5. Speaking of Ingólfur Arnarson, the Icelandic government set up a monument to him at the site where he left Norway, about one quarter mile from the farm where my maternal grandfather grew up. There is a Viking grave mount on the farm, so the area has been settled for >1000 years.

  6. Another possibly overlooked contributor to low TFR is so many cars. Besides affecting actual space they affect perceived space or mental well being. Every time you step outside there a thousands of 2 ton noisy machines whirring past your head. It’s a constant low level stressor to some degree or another.

    • I think one of the drivers of white infertility (statistical) is young people not having cars anymore. They’re not doin’ it because there’s nowhere to do it.

  7. Feminization for sure but infantilization even more so. The way of the GAE.

    Think about Germany and Japan: two great nations/cultures conquered and occupied all these years and the result of all that cuckery is two goofy cultures of wall-to-wall puer aeturnas. Everyone wants an easy life and constant amusement and no responsibility.

    But the GAE has done the same thing to its own people. Amusing themselves to death.

    • One of the more recent trends in infantilization that I’ve noticed is the tendency to cancel things like classes, sportsball games, etc. because someone died. Seems like this was unthinkable half a century ago. Or even a quarter century ago. It was understood that death was inevitable and one must carry on, “it’s what they would have wanted.” Now it’s time to go to the safe space.

      Same kind of thinking that allows one to embrace shutting the world down because there’s a virus, with little apparent comprehension of, let alone appreciation for, all the unintended consequences.

      • Well, they have to somehow normalize 35 year-old former NFL wide receivers dying suddenly.

      • It was not uncommon in open-wheel racing into the 30s to leave the wreckage of a car in which a driver had died, on the edge of the track, and not remove it until the race was complete. Nowadays–viz Dan Wheldon at Las Vegas in ’12–in the highly unlikely event there’s a fatality, the race is canceled and the track is declared verboten for ever more. Pussification at 200 m.p.h.

        • I regularly attend the Indianapolis 500 and marvel at how the race continued on in 1955 (after the death of Bill Vukovich the 1953 and 54 Indy 500 winner), 1964 (the horrifying Eddie Sachs/Dave MacDonald crash on lap two that claimed both their lives), and the mess that was 1973 (The Salt Walther crash on the main straightaway at the start on Monday, and the horrific Swede Savage crash on Wednesday, including crewman Armando Terran getting struck and killed by a Safety Truck on Pit Road trying to help Swede).

          I remember a story about Jimmy Clark from the 1964 Indianapolis 500. After the horrific Sachs/MacDonald crash red flagged and stopped the race his Team Lotus crewmen found him out of his car resting against the inside crash wall. They came up with shaken looks on their faces and asked Jimmy if he was OK.

          His response? “Why so glum 🙁? It’s just an auto race.”

          People were tougher back then and understood the risks drivers took climbing into cars with minimal protection. And in 1955, 1964, and 1973 the wreckage was cleared off the track, the green flag flew, and the race continued.

          I think 💭 of years like 1933 where five drivers and riding mechanics died in the month of May and marvel that they just carried on. People today would be apoplectic. 😱

          BTW Dan Wheldon died at the 2011 Las Vegas race. In older times they would’ve repaired the track and run the rest of the race.

          • Right. The Dallara DW12 was for the year after his death. And I’m not sure back in the old days they even would have repaired the track!

            Talking about toughness, Jim Hurtubise was almost burned to death in a crash, in the early 60s, I think. One of his hands was especially severely damaged. One day the doctor came into Herk’s hospital room and told him that in the future he would have no mobility with his right hand. The best they could do was put the hand in the position Herk wanted it, and when it healed, it would be frozen in that position. The doc asked him how he wanted his hand positioned. Hurtubise replied, “Fix it so I can hold a steering wheel.”

    • pantouf – amusing themselves to death – made me think of the WW1 adage of sleep walking to war. GAE sleep walking to death.

  8. Nobody seems to have a good answer for the TFR issues. I’m frankly not sure it has anything to do with liberalism or Germans being self hating. It’s happening everywhere all at once.

    Liberal Sweden; Norway: used to be okay but now crashing TFR
    Conservative Italy; Poland: low TFR since the 90s.
    Secular-Islamic Turkey: lower TFR than America
    Islamic dictatorship Iran: lower TFR than America
    Crap holes Brazil; Colombia; Latin America: rapidly crashing TFR
    Nice but sterile China, Japan, Korea, Singapore: extremely low TFR
    India: outside of the cow belt, it now has a lower fertility rate than most of Red-State America.
    Conservative Russia and Hungary: billion $ program to make people have kids – marginal benefit with a fertility rate only slightly higher than the eu, and full of gypsies / minority groups.

    The big holdout is Sub-Saharan Africa. The Arab world is doing better than the West, but not that much better compared to 30 years ago. (3 vs 1.5 instead of 7 vs 1.7). And they’re still dropping too.

    So what’s causing the birth rate crash? I don’t think “European post WW2 liberalism” explains it. I don’t know, but the answer might be something that nobody expects. Maybe something that we don’t even consider as in the realm of possibilities right now.

    It’s entirely possible that in 30 years Germanic settlers on the North American continent will have the world’s highest fertility rate. Mainly in America but also Canada, Brazil, some Mennonites in Latin America. Red State America has quite a strong birth rate and the Southern Brazilian provinces now have the highest TFR in the country.

    Strange things are happening that go against our entire 20th century understanding of the world.

      • This has to be Afghan barely teach women to read level though. Iran restricts women heavily and its about the same as Germany fertility wise

        Middle Eastern countries are in the same path

        Its also something that can’t be top down even if our elites supported it. Afghan women are like they are because women support the system

    • I’m partial to the microplastics idea myself. Not exactly scientific, but it is one thing affecting all cultures everywhere, and we see fertility dropping in all cultures, everywhere. Even in Sub Saharan Africa it is dropping.

    • “Strange things are happening that go against our entire 20th century understanding of the world.”

      Great comment. And personally, this gives me hope.

      It also tickles me to no end to think that we (and all those myriad pompous Experts and Phds and pundits) can’t possibly predict where it is all going.

      Anyone care for a little helping of “Man proposes, God disposes”?

    • Alex Berenson has been writing about this topic recently. A slightly edited version of some comments I wrote on his Substack may be useful here.

      Arthur Schopenhauer wrote about a very intriguing theory that came to him by way of another researcher whose name I cannot recall at the moment. The idea was that each race of organisms has an inherent genius for reproducing itself in the correct number such that, once you normalize for extrinsic factors (e.g. industrial growth or its opposite, etc.), the birth rate is always equal to the death rate. The idea apparently has some quantitative support.

      I find myself thinking of this when I look at population pyramids and age-bracketed population growth rates. In America and throughout the developed world, the total population is still increasing but all the growth is confined to the age 60+ demographic. Each year, more people are aging into the 60+ category than there are babies being born.

      This produces a geriatric overhang of old folks that clogs up the pipeline and distorts the normally shaped demographic pyramid, greatly skewing dependency ratios and transferring wealth away from young, fertile people and up towards the caprock of eldering crust pressing down on society like a pot lid. Life cannot flow through the rhythm of the generations like it wants to, so the genius of the race, sensing that there are too many of its own kind, responds by reducing fertility.

      The Baby Boom generation will shortly become the Death Boom generation, but that will not happen for a few more years yet. The modal age at death, i.e. the age at which the greatest number of people die, which is a much more informative metric than “life expectancy” which is skewed by the small but significant number of infant mortalities, is roughly equal to about 82. The oldest Boomers will begin reaching the modal age at death starting around 2028, and then will see a great wave of dying off over the next 20 years. If the theory is correct, we should see a slight increase in births over that period, but perhaps not enough to stem the long-term trend towards population decline, given the economic decline that is likely to accompany it.

      On the other hand, the fact that the French author Andre Gide, who preferred to live his life as an exultant pederast (his own description), had but one single sexual encounter with woman in his entire life, by which he sired a daughter (at the age of 54!), should be taken as evidence that God alone is the true author of life and death, and He works in mysterious ways.

      In the natural course of things, there couldn’t be anybody less likely to have a child than Andre Gide, and yet he did. On the other hand, how many millions of brave, healthy, kind, decent young men have been blown up on the battlefields of Europe without ever getting the chance to start a family?

      There is definitely something else that governs the destinies of men, independently of our own choices and wills. Some people inexplicably have children, and some people inexplicably don’t, and we will not know why until we see the whole plan revealed on the last day.

      • Glide’s progeny is evidence only that copulation between two fertile people has some percentage chance of leading to fertilization. What if that percentage chance was reduced by environmental factors? I’m pretty sure it can be. Tighter underwear, for instance. Among other things. The thing I wish to point out here is that both global and AINO birth rates were already declining, steadily, every year, before the pill.

      • As noted, the current world population pyramid indicts that the world population is headed for a decrease, rather precipitously everywhere except Africa. That’s why I never buy into the overpopulation FUD some folks keep spreading. This trend has been noted for many years by demographers before Berenson (a good reporter) came along. It also is easily explained by the post WWII explosion in food supplies and medicines, which in turn had some affect upon TFR since children need not be produced in excess to make up for anticipated/typical childhood mortality.

        No one uses “life expectancy”—as in cradle to grave—for anything meaningful, nor has in my recollection. All life expectancy discussion is couched in Bayesian terms, such as “What is the life expectancy of a White, male, who has reached the age of 65 in the US?” This is how insurance and pension plans are calculated.

        The aspect of us “oldies” sucking up all the wealth is also more FUD and not in evidence. For example, what happens to such wealth when we pass on? Do you burn it or toss it into the grave? No, the wealth is first taxed and then passes on to our heirs, mostly the millennials, but also some X’s and Z’s.

        In the case of taxes, we are just holding it for the government. Money in the bank so to speak—and money that if in the hands of government would have been spent (wasted) long ago. As to our heirs, they now have the money you decry we are holding away from them all these years.

        Don’t forget, the government forced Boomers into 401k’s which are counted as wealth. We used to get pensions from employers. Estimate of the pending wealth transfer has been from $42-62T dollars. This will be the greatest wealth transfer in history.

        Finally, the wealth of the Boomers is waay overstated—in that most Boomers are doing relatively poorly—as is everybody else. The Boomer generation is estimated to have reached 77M and is now declining. As noted, they will be gone (faster and faster) in 20 years. The average Boomer is retiring with $150k in wealth (there are differing estimates, but not significantly for this argument). Unfortunately, that’s better than the bulk of the non-Boomer populace, but nothing to aspire to nor make one sleep better at night

        The bulk of the wealth in the USA is in the upper quintile of the population—really the upper 10%. About 80% of the wealth. (The remaining 20% of the wealth is left for the rest of the populace to squabble over. ) As simple math will show, it ain’t all Boomers up there.

        The real problem is not that Boomers have all the wealth, but that the wealth is unequally distributed throughout the populace. There are graphs that show throughout the late 19th early 20th century, the difference between the “haves” and the “have nots” remained at a pretty constant proportion, but in the 70’s and 80’s the rich got waay richer while the poor remained stagnant.

        And here we are today, back to a wealth disparity similar to the Middle Ages.

        • The inverted population pyramid is a structural feature of modern societies. It is affecting all generations and will continue to affect many more generations to come. I never mentioned anything about “the Boomers,” but talk about the guilty fleeing when no man pursueth!

          • ID, catch a clue. The inverted pyramid *is* the Boomer generation! You don’t know what you are talking about, therefore fail to realize what you’ve said in your commentary. All smoke, little heat.

    • Consumerism provides no purpose, no hope for the future. As the problems with the economy and the financial system grow, consumerism is pushed more and more. It’s gotten so bad that if you don’t consume as the desired pace these days, you get called some sort of ism. As the political glue frays even more, they push the desired narrative into “entertainment” more and more.

        • I would guess a mixture of that and religion. Consuming in and of itself isn’t bad per se, if everyone in a small town buys from each other, it tightens the bonds of community. People wouldn’t be strangers like we have today even when they’ve lived next door for years. What would be harder to destroy, a town of tight knit people who’s income depended on each other? Or a town of complete strangers who buy things, retreat to their home and suspect the person next door believes in the opposite of themselves?

        • I’m tempted to answer as if I knew a lot about Amish people, which I don’t. But I will say, however it is that the Amish have indoctrinated their women, it is so effective that it is strong enough to compel them to willingly choose men who don’t wear deodorant. That is strong stuff! The future really does belong to them if they can hold it together.

          • The Amish also limit their education to both men and women. Basically, you stop at 8th grade. I’m told that some of the real bright ones do go on, but I suspect this is resisted as it encourages youngsters to leave the group.

          • I understand examining the Amish TFR and practices as an intellectual endeavor. However, they’re really the equivalent of bonobos of the primate world.

            They can exist, prosper, and engage in anachronistic oddity because they are in a protected enclave without predators.

            Like the bonobo, they are flukes that lucked out for now. Instead of finding a secluded jungle enclave/niche the Amish are protected from reality by existing in the historical anomaly that is the modern West.

            Once Western Civilization breaks down from internal and external forces, the Amish will be a short lived snack for the wolves that make up the preponderance of human history.

            Their eschewing of technology and pacifist ideology makes them unsuitable for survival outside of this rarified time/place they currently inhabit.

            They will be the bonobos going the way of the dodo.

          • One other reason this this works well is people who aren’t suited to Amish life can leave rather easily

            They’ve boiled off all the outcasts and renegades much the way say Europe did with its diaspora.

          • Amish exist in Belize, Peru, Paraguay with not too many problems. Those are hardly “Western” countries, although they are probably kept more stable by the West. In fact those countries are probably too decrepit to do anything to them even if there was bad intent.

            However, the “Germans” didn’t fare well in Kazakhstan under a truly oppressive regime and are just a small, dying minority there today.

          • The Amish are very inbred, similar to polygymous Mormon sects in parts of Utah. We lived in an Ohio county that had large numbers of Amish. The young men and their elders work on construction jobs, using machinery that they don’t use domestically. Our kids’ private school had Amish employees. Some of the younger women hire out as domestic housekeepers, driven to their jobs in vans. Never figured out who the drivers were, definitely non-Amish men. At home they do stuff that we would find harsh, like running “puppy mills.” The non-Amish authorities in their communities pretty much leave them be.

      • Consumerism is the state of living in the eternal present, which fits right in with the communist idea that it’s always Day Zero of the revolution.

        • Buy our product and you’ll be young forever! Get the girls! No introspection, always chasing the next thing. I think it hurts the female side of the equation more then the male. Would also be a moving cog in the machine that is the feminazation of society. Does a man really accessorize his outfits? Does he spend hours deciding what would compliment his couch?

  9. Iceland and Germany have one major thing in common. They’re both occupied by the American Empire. When you’re a province of an Empire, you can still retain your local color, yet the big things are agreed upon in the imperial capital, with most of the culture exported from the center of the Empire.

  10. “…none of these countries report TFR by ethnicity as that would give the game away.”

    WRT Germany, I read—a few years ago already—that due to Merkel and the great Middle Eastern invasion, the population of young ME males, 16-25 or so was *now equal* to the population of native born German’s of that same age bracket. In other words, “population replacement” of native Germans was inevitable since ME males were predicted to take wives and out breed the native Germans who have a lower TFR. The results will not be seen for a generation, but by then it would be too late. The German population now brown instead of a Nordic white.

    It was a very sad prediction to be sure.

    • Doubly so if the culture has truly become effeminate. Women will breed the strong horse so some swarthy arab swaggering about will look very appealing to the bird brained female who can not escape her genetic programming any more than any man can. One million years of evolution will not be deprogrammed in a few decades no matter how hard central planning has been trying.

  11. Have met many Germans. Often quite intelligent, but at the same time goofy. There is something off about them. Too many wars I guess.

    And definitely the most cucked nation on earth at this moment. Biden, with Scholz standing beside him, announced that USA would destroy Nordstream if Putin went into Ukraine.

    Germany, then and now: crickets.

    • If invaded, they would not lift a finger in self defense. A truly conquered people. But still not without their positive attributes.

    • The thing about Germans is that it’s impossible to assimilate with them. No matter how hard an Arab or Turk tries, they are just too weird (and WEIRD). Even myself as a Canadian finds them weird.

      Put an Arab in Latin America, over time they mix in with the Latinos. Who doesn’t like sex, booties, beaches, and loud music?

      Germans (and to a lesser extent all Germanics) don’t operate like this.

      And this is a good thing for their group in cases with open borders.

    • Not surprising their most aggressive, brave, alpha, honor bound Chad males were crushed several generations ago under the collective boot of the (((Allied))) powers. I put those echoes in just for you @Forever Templar since clearly it offends your delicate Tel Aviv sensibilities for some reason.

      I’m sure there are still some very strong alpha Germans but I would imagine they are a vanishingly small minority compared to what existed prior to WW2.

    • Eerie, but not without explanation. Greenland was founded during the 400 year warm spell, but always harsh and barely survivable. After which, it really became unlivable.

      • And, supposedly, they did not adapt their culture to comport with the climate and the nutritional sources that it offered, sources that afforded the aboriginals with at least a subsistence level lifestyle.

        • Yeah, I guess you could say that. The Viking Greenlanders did have contact with Eskimos who had no problem with surviving the climate change. Living as they did in Norway just didn’t cut it.

        • Norse “Jarls” in Greenland, it is posited, would eat naught but (choice!) farmstuff: beef, lamb, etc.
          Fish was considered “declassee” – i.e., fit only for Thanes and Lesser Freemen

  12. Let’s face it, kids are a pain in the ass. Your own kids. (Other people’s kids are fun.) Let’s not gloss over this or pretend it isn’t true. They are also wildly expensive. When you get old it’s nice to have them to visit you and look after you, but that’s a long way off and not so relevant for the young person of child bearing age, who lives in a lap of luxury modern society with all the material comforts.

    Kids were a pain in the ass back in the day too, but they helped on the farm, and there wasn’t any birth control to prevent them anyway. Nowadays there is no equivalent of the farm. It’s all expenditure, no return, until far, far in the future. It’s only some sense of duty or biological imperative that drive reproduction anymore, and nothing else. Kids aren’t even status symbols in the present day west. Women who have them gain zero status by doing so. And what does a women care about more than status?

    For people to reproduce as in the days of old, there has to be an incentive, which is presently missing. In the days of free money, giving some of it to child rearing couples would have been a far better use of it than most of the “uses” for it that were found. But those days are probably over.

      • You’re right, but if I’m missing anything, it is only the sentimental value of the child, which is clearly insufficient to sustain replacement level birth rates.

        • The childless are genetic dead end nobodies. Contributions can’t for nothing without an heir. Children are children for a limited time frame and grow to your replacements and expand your family and nation. The childless are useless and parasites even in old age. The childless after 50 are a drain.

          • Every Welfare Ghetto Queen that has shit out half a dozen or a dozen niglets absolutely ruins your argument just in case you weren’t aware, re: parasitic drain.

            Could it be the case that perhaps the K selected responsible Europeans understand the extreme cost of children today whereas r selected welfare leeches know that Whitey is going to pick up the tab so breed like roaches?

            Summary- It is not quite as simple as you are making it out to be when you factor racial elements, like most things in life.

          • That’s a ridiculous preindustrial way of thinking for 2023

            It made sense when we needed everyone to farm so a few elites could live in cities but every year via computers and automation we actually reduce the demand for any labor that is well remunerated enough to allow urban family formation

            We barely need office buildings, stores, car dealerships or any of that. Food service, sure but even much of that is order and pick up or have delivered

            Reality is old people’s savings produces demand for the surplus production without producing a human surplus

            In essence non reproduction enables us to reach our healthy maximum population faster

            And yes historically this is bonkers.
            Everything since roughly the Internet has been increasingly nuts

            As for what that bottom is excluding Amish and the like, if we continue on the path we are on the real sustainable population is about 10-20% current, maybe less.

        • (I did not downvote your reply.)

          I fear you equate kids with pets.

          I adore my doggies. But my feeling for my kid is on a whole ‘nother level. Cannot easily put it into words, and this is not the time or place for it.

    • Creation of the next generation is a life imperative. The need for an “incentive” shows a shallow, narcissistic waste of a life. To spend money on a pointless, idiotic vacation instead of ensuring the creation and growth of your line shows a waste of a life. The next generation will be trained roexpand the family name, lineage, wealth and prestige. Talking of the next generation like a stupid piece of property like a dog shows a dead end working for corporation a to fund nothing.

      • When having kids becomes a calculated choice instead of an imperative, your culture is already dead.

        • Having children without considering the consequence for all concerned is the height of irresponsibility and is a behavior correlated with low intelligence.

          • Many Natal Bros are freaking out these days and can no more embrace a healthy natural population decline than Big Government, Business or Religion

            Reality is we’ve reached carrying capacity and found a humane way to lower our numbers over time. Every idiot that tries to fix it especially with immigration makes it worse

            Simply, stop helping, stop immigration to maintain social stability and let nature take its course is all we have to do.

            Well that and figure out a better economic schema but its doable.

      • You are not entitled to anyone’s children for your social goals any more than the Left is.

        Unless they share your political system or faith, they are not “your” people and owe you nothing

    • Jeffrey Zoar

      You are absolutely correct, kids are a pain in the ass. Correct that, a MAJOR pain in the ass. Let’s list a few examples to make it clear.

      Going on a road trip 4 years in a row with my twins, and visiting every state capitol.
      Key West three times with them.
      Teaching them to drive at 14 in Nevada on those looong flat roads.(with my hand firmly on the brake).
      Spending 3 days with them in NYC and having one of them say,”New York is great, for about 3 days”.
      Going to the Ivy Lodge in Rhode Island and having the place to ourselves.
      Listening to custom burned CDs on all the trips.
      Spending their 15th birthday at the top of the Space Needle in Seattle.
      First class trip on The Empire Builder, sharing a Harry Potter new releases with them. ( The food was surprisingly good).
      Going on a cruise with them for their high school graduation.
      And that’s just some of the travel.

      Im sure you get the picture.

      Im not gonna criticize you, because, as you said, you don’t have any kids. You can’t fathom what being a parent means to life.

      If I have any regrets, it will be that I didn’t have more.

      As I’ve told them many times, you will never regret having kids, you’ll only regret not having them.

      • I’ve been disagreed with here on the basis of sentimentality, which I’m not saying is without value, far from it, but it is what it is. And as I’ve said somewhere else in this thread, clearly that quality isn’t enough, in this age, to convince people to reproduce. Telling young folks today “There’s something wrong with you, you should want kids more,” is probably not a successful way to get them to reproduce more.

        • People who don’t want to reproduce should not. And it’s a big mistake if anyone manages to convince them otherwise. Count me among those who won’t make that mistake.

          • You have never been to an inner city ghetto bursting at the seams have you?

            Shitting out sprog for the “sake of” is the least responsible most animalistic thing a ‘human’ can do. You can do what roaches and rats do really well. Congratulations!

            –Responsibly– raising children you can afford, different story. Why are so many people on this forum such flaming spergy autists on this subject? There is a tremendous gulf between breeding uncontrollably and responsibly raising children.

          • J: “Why are so many people on this forum such flaming spergy autists on this subject?”

            Because we do not want Nordic Icy-Blue-Eyed genes to vanish into extinction.

            single mother lifeguard chick

        • You are correct. Its not a successful way to achieve your goals . It only works within ones own social reach and this society is too fragmented

          Also coldly I am quite happy the Left is having fewer children. This mean we might just end up biologically wired for Conservatism faster. Take control if the institutions to prevent gaslighting and brainwashing people into thinking Left is Right and you can have a fairly Leftist free society . We see inklings of this in Israel now.

          Apex is slightly wrong re: Ghettos. There are large welfare families but the overall rate of Blacks is below replacement also.

      • Bartleby: My husband has repeatedly regretted not having more than two. Yes, we were broke and he was worried about paying for college. Now he knows that if you wait until you can ‘afford’ kids they never get born, and college is a racket, and although a pain children are also a joy.

        And we neither expect nor want them to look after us in our dotage. We want them raising their own children.

      • Yes!! I did not have kids and I regret it every day of my life now. fortunately I have three wonderful god-children who are like rays of sunshine in my old age. But they will never be truly mine, not like they would have if I had been their actual parent. When I was young I scorned the idea of having kids because I had “more important” things to do. Those priorities have all dried up and blown away like so much dust. Children are a living legacy as well as the most rewarding project that most people can ever undertake. Unless you are Michelangelo or a religious ascetic, children are your highest calling and greatest joy. They will bring out the best in you and transform you into a strong, brave, responsible adult (a transformation I have witnessed several times). Nothing else comes close. The Catholic church is right about family: it’s a sacred obligation and a fount of love.

    • A ridiculous number of down votes for a perfectly thought out comment. Kids are a luxury item these days, whereas in the past were useful in a more agrarian society. Not to mention the number of “modern” women pulled out of the baby-making/rearing class by Feminism and “the pill”.

      Couple the above with a decline in religiosity and one easily sees why TFR is in decline. Of course, there needs to be new incentives for child rearing to replace those lost. It is a matter of societal survival—and I like my society to be White, thank you. However, those incentives are also rejected/discouraged by those selfish, childless couples and the open borders policy we’ve installed to keep population numbers up through migration—where the problem continues as the follow on generations become infected with our affluence disease.

      If it were up to me, childless couples would obtain *no* welfare benefits such as SSI and other benefits we need not discuss here. And yes, I have children, but it seems so far, not us, nor they, are willing to maintain/produce the 2.1+ children needed for simple replacement population. One and done is little better than childlessness.

      • “Kids are a luxury item these days….”

        Adults are luxury items these days also, as the Davos crowd believes. They’re busy preparing to economize by getting rid of luxuries.

      • SSI is for disability and many disabled people should not have kids and can’t care for them anyway.

        As long as you don’t tax folks for Social Security and are willing to accept an even lower fertility rate and 25% savings possibly creating massive asset price inflation feel free to do away with social security

        Paying off a house, being frugal and investments such as annuities are better than any pension return wise anyway. And note you are not going to get to ban collecting interest or annuities which have existed since the Middle Ages

        This policy would actually slow the velocity of money further

        My advice is to control immigration, repatriate and after that stop meddling, its a self correcting problem. The population will reach the number of available jobs whether the US will have v 200 million or 30 million who knows? It will happen

    • You are wrong. I never wanted kids as a young man, but they happened. They are the best thing to ever happen to me and anyone who does parenting correctly. (Please note the “correctly” part).
      I love my dog. Huge animal lover here. And before I had kids, I could nod with those childless people who call their animals their kids and conflate the love for a pet with the love for a child.
      After having a kid, no way can I agree. You are simply wrong.
      And I was not one for whom the love was immediate. For months and months, I did what I was supposed to do, but I did not feel great love or affection. But, as she grew, so did my love. I think about my youngest now, and my heart, simply, overflows.
      This is in contrast to the immediacy of a real woman. I hid behind the curtain (some things you cannot unsee), but as soon as my wife gave birth, she said, with so much exhausted sincerity, “Oh, she’s so beautiful” when the doctors handed the girl to her. That is a real woman – immediate love and nurturing.
      I am sorry you do not know either, based on your response. You are missing out on the best part of life.
      I know that there will arrive a time when I will know longer be the most important thing to them. It sucks, and it will hurt. But, when I can truly say that I would give my life in a second, no hesitation, for them, I did get something out of it: A love I never could have thought I could feel.

      • Very similar to me, at 30 even I had no desire for a child, now at 40+ with a beautiful daughter, i couldn’t imagine life without her….or that experience of being a Father.
        I have told a few friends that were on the fence, “Even if you prefer a self-centered life, at a minimum, a child will help you fully understand yourself.”
        So many times I gain insight to my past and myself from seeing my daughter grow up.
        I am convinced that having a child is a requirement for having the full human “experience”.
        Sadly I started way too late so will only have one….so count me among the TFR losers….

        • I believe all of you, but I don’t think any of that does anything to refute what I posted. If it did, we wouldn’t even be having the discussion.

          • 1. Not all women are solely interested in status.
            2. Kids are not simply an expense, as you argue. They give way more.
            3. They are a sort of status. I cannot tell you how often my coworkers and strangers tell me how lovely my family is. Not exaggerating- we go for walks all the time around town, and the next people will tell how lovely and happy they look.
            4. Mine are not a pain in the ass. Seriously, they are both wonderful and obedient.
            5. You argue about kids as a role in society and workers. I am pointing out, implicitly, that you are missing out on the sense that they complete you as a person.

          • Further, you are essentially arguing for a strict materialism akin to Marx. I would argue that you are missing sentiments, which are not some arbitrary thing to be dismissed as byproducts of “reality.” They are the thing that make us us. Otherwise, poetry is pointless, for it is only words, and if sentiments are irrelevant, then the only value it contains is in its ability to educate and improve the material circumstances. And then I read Holmes’ The Chambered Nautilus, and I beg to differ.

  13. I would argue that prolonged affluence is the root of all of these problems (feminized society, low TFR, poor leadership). Affluence killed hardship and existential threat, which eliminated the ancient evolutionary culling that drove essential advancement of the species. As such, there will be no return of hard men and societal robustness until the gauntlet re-emerges.

    None of us can control when or how this happens, so macro-debates about macro-solutions is just mental masturbation. But we can make ourselves worthy of being a survivor and passing on good genes to the future. In other words, you should aspire to be in the “fittest” cohort of the transition. Nature wants smart and strong and fast and hardy.

    Iceland has volcanoes, frigid harsh winters and relative isolation. It would be a good haven for wise survivors fleeing the collapse. Just sayin’.

    • I like to think and opine (obviously). If I get serious about it, though, it’s probably cheap energy. Carbon-based fuel might end up being the worst thing that happened to humanity.

      I also bet environmentalists get it. I bet they talk about emissions instead because it’s more rhetorically effective. Priests, not cult members.

      • So-called fossil fuels, that is lol.

        Does anybody know why they’re called that? It would seem to mean they’re made of fossils, which makes no sense. If it means fossilized like an aquifer, why not use the word?

        And why would peak oil be a thing? The process that turns organic matter into coal, oil, and gas wouldn’t stop, right? Is it more a matter of easily-exploited deposits being tapped out, rather than a finite supply? Is abiotic or abiogenic oil real?

        Just curious.

    • Unfort, Iceland requires imported food, energy and goods to sustain all but a very small population or else it crashes and dies. Without trade, as in a SHTF scenario, Iceland wood, wups there isn’t much na tive wood of utility, would not make for a viable refuge. (Also, the island may blow up soon.)

      • Not sure Iceland will blow up. Too lazy to check it out, but doesn’t their volcanic activity rely on plate tectonics pulling apart? That usually makes for more peaceful eruptions.

        • According to a member of the Congressional Black Caucus, Iceland will float away, crash into an iceberg and capsize if it doesn’t import enough negroes…

      • Iceland has tapped into geothermal energy and can feed itself via commercial fishing and live stock augmented by both seasonal and greenhouse agriculture. But yes, its population sustaining capacity is limited, so bring real productivity or necessary skills with you if you want to be accepted into the fold. And if the volcanoes scare you, Greenland is an alternate option to consider.

    • “None of us can control when or how this happens, so macro-debates about macro-solutions is just mental masturbation. But we can make ourselves worthy of being a survivor and passing on good genes to the future.”

      Post of the Day.

  14. I can’t post the link so go to revolver and control f for “trial by ordeal”. That should show you the link.

    i’m not sure how limiting the jury system to freeholders would fix things. The cult of BLM has its highest adherence among the rich in places like NOVA, Westchester etc

  15. The problem with TFR being low isn’t that a society is running out of people or that they will run out of people, but the economy is based on growth and pension plans are based on population growth. Falling fertility can be solved in a single generation.

    There are built in mechanisms to solve the “problem.” As the population shrinks, wages go up. The price of housing should fall. The price of most things should fall. But instead of allowing this correction to happen naturally, it is fought by bringing in foreigners to pay the pensions of the people who didn’t have children and to keep the economy expanding. This is done to save a system that is unsustainable and will collapse anyway, probably faster because of the immigrants.

    The US is the perfect example. No amount of immigration is going to save the US economy as it currently exists. It will change and probably fairly soon. While economic problems come and go, mass migration is either permanent or very difficult to reverse.

    • I could be wrong, but it depends why they come. If for milk and honey, it’s reasonably self-correcting. Then again, how many are trafficked and otherwise wouldn’t be able to move?

      • I meant the falling population is (well, might be) self-correcting. With such high costs of living and housing shortages, it discourages family formation. Much of the other causes are ultimately caused by such large populations.

        The foreigner problem is not self correcting in the long term. It might be in the short term, but not the long term. In the long term, they become entrenched. Their adult children (who grew up here) only know English. They have ties to the culture and to the country. They have family and friends. They feel like it’s “home.” All these people living police stations and tent cities and shelters, in 30 years, their kids are going to believe they are hyphenated “Americans” They will have no ties to squatamalla and mehiko or Puerto Rico etc. Getting rid of them will be MUCH, MUCH harder and require a lot of force.

        We could force these people back now very easily. Just enforce the damned law. Make new laws outlawing them. No rent. No property rights. No employment. JAIL and million dollar fines for anyone caught renting to them, employing them, selling them water or natural gas or electricity (IOW, utilities). They would go on their own initiative were these things done, or even less than these things. Just banning them from work or handouts would likely be enough.

        • Maybe I’m being unfair, but I think some people simply aren’t disposed to set roots. Even ‘heritage’ Americans have been moving around since the beginning, looking for that American Dream! Some Americans have already left the country; if things keep getting worse, more will.

          Iow, birds of a feather flock together. I mean, I see it in the transplants here. They’re not satisfied, always looking for a better meal or a trendier shop or the next fad. I think it’s just a type, and I don’t think it’s limited to bourgeois whitey. We just happened to have suffered an almost unique amount of success here.

          • Some really effective marketing, too. America: the place where even the most dissatisfied can find happiness!

      • If you believe the New York Post and I do not especially, many Venezuelans here legally are already finding it to be pretty bad and wanting to go home.

    • “While economic problems come and go, mass migration is either permanent or very difficult to reverse.”

      it’s not that hard as long as you’re willing to use violence.

      ussr used to displace people all the time.
      how many military aged men did US/israel kick out of middle east?

      quite a few empires had this weird tendency of displacing populations in order to better control them, they don’t need to exert themselves too much to do it.
      less fighting age arabs living in middle east makes it easier for js to create greater israel, less people to fight.

      the only reason israel hasn’t displaced many more is cause they have to pretend they aren’t doing what they’re doing, so they take it slow.

    • Mass migration—as we know it—fixes nothing because it is of low quality. We don’t need folks who have low IQ and no technological skill sets. Yeah, I know we need lawn care and someone to pick up the trash. However, these people are a net sink wrt tax payer dollars. Even an honest Leftie will admit such—just before he turns around and tells you how these immigrants’ children will grow into productive, tax producing Americans.

      Of course, that is the great lie. And illogical anyway, since this “generational gap” is easily avoided through legal migration that vet’s the immigrant through a rating process wrt education and vocation. My department at the University had just about as many foreign faculty as American. None of those faculty got off the boat and applied for an EBT card—and they spoke English as well! 😉

      • Do you want to be displaced by high IQ foreigners? I don’t.

        The “problem” they are trying to solve isn’t a problem, it’s math. The economy “needs” 3% or better growth (this number is increasing with interest). This is called exponential growth. We cannot sustain a 3% growth rate forever. If we extrapolate the last 150 years into the next 500, the waste heat of engines will make the surface of the earth hot enough to boil water. This is not climate change (putting aside whether or not it’s real), it’s the energy lost in a heat engine to its surroundings. Since this is ridiculously silly and will never happen, something else will break long before the final 5 or 6 doublings.

        We’re wrecking the country and its future to save a system that cannot be saved. At the end of the day, the economy will collapse or least change and a civil war to get rid of all these high IQ high performing foreigners who do not belong here.

        We have more than enough educated people. Most educated people are doing busy work. Hell, we have college grads serving coffee and french fries. We don’t need more of them. How long before we have an Indian president? A bunch of Indians and Chinese in the Congress?

        Frankly, I don’t even understand why people around here feel the need to say we need “some” immigration as long as they are “high quality” immigrants. It hides the cost of the bad/dumb things we do. Like growing nuts in the desert and using vast armies of illegal aliens to harvest them. All the nuts are shipped to Asia. A few agro businesses make a fortune stripping fossil water from aquifers while everyone else pays the costs of all those funny brown people working for the “farms” and the water shortages.

        • Like I say around here, no corn in Nebraska when the wells run dry, no California produce without irrigation. Meanwhile Central PA gets developed because LOCATION! Yeah, same location (and soil, climate, WATER) that should make us the breadbasket of the East Coast.

          I hope I’m alive to drive the bulldozer!

          • People too. White people who own family farms and are willing to work, who’ve hung on living supposedly impoverished lifestyles.

          • I live in Southeastern PA where the rain seems to never stop. There used to be a lot of farmland around here where all the suburbs are now. This is pretty much true in all older cities. Their locations were not chosen at random. They were usually on rivers with good soil and rainfall so it could support farming.

            The family farm is mostly a thing of the past. What are today called “farmers” are large agro businesses. It’s big business with big money and tons and tons of grift.

            There is or was an area of Connecticut that was world famous for tobacco. There’s a film on youtube of harvest time. They just bused in White kids to do the work of harvesting. They were only needed for a week or so and they some money and went to back to life elsewhere afterwards. If it still exists, what hasn’t been automated will be done by Mexicans.
            It’s a pretty cool video and worth watching if you can find it.

          • If cities grow, fine, they grow, but I’ll never wrap my head around letting them rot and paving over the countryside. It’s beyond wasteful and unsustainable. It’s purely destructive. Purely self-destructive, too.

          • Paintersforms @ 6:50,

            Yeah, and you know why the cities fall to ruin, of course; the vibrancy infiltrates, and the whites who would take the effort and expense of maintaining the city soon afterwards run for their very lives to old inner ring suburbs first, and then to newly “constructed” suburbs yet further out.

        • How long before we have an Indian president? I think the odds are pretty decent that we’re 14 months out

        • No one mentioned displacement. We are simply filling needs for certain people/occupations we can not fill ourselves. It is even possible to *shrink* the population with such importation of selected migrants.

          Open borders means no limits under our control. Legal, vetted immigration, means limits and quality and choice.

          • “We are simply filling needs for certain people/occupations we can not fill ourselves. ”

            Like what? Which high IQ job are we incapable of doing ourselves?

          • High IQ specialties as in my example. Any number of faculty who are outstanding/unique in their fields, but reside in other countries and might be willing to emigrate. And for that matter not every need is related to high IQ, but to training and skill. For example, the Washington Cathedral needed to import foreign stonemasons for construction, such skill not being available here. Even if such skill is available, is it available in sufficient quantity to fill our immediate needs.

            Really, your objection is not very persuasive.

        • Bravo.

          Reality is we (US here) need to start with stopping illegal immigration and the repatriate everyone who doesn’t speak English (nearly 70 million!) well, who is an immigrant with a substantial criminal record and the H1B’s aka cheap labor of all kinds.

          This will push up wages a lot and once debts are paid down might even allow economic concerns re: family formation to vanish

  16. The “no-go” areas in German cities are safer than corresponding areas in French and US cities for one crucial reason: much fewer noggers. Tell me the percentage of noggers in a city and I will tell you what kind of a city you have.

    • Precisely. Oddly enough, however, it is very difficult to find the racial demographics for Germany. My guess, however, is that its negro population is well under five percent. That sounds paradisical. Turks are just not social pests in remotely the same way.

      • I’ve seen a few noggers in Berlin. A few in Cologne. This is going back six years. I took a high-speed train from Cologne to Paris and got the shock of my life. The Gare du Nord area is awash with noggers. You see them brazenly jumping over the turnstiles at the metro station. I’m in Mexico City at the moment— population of 25m and bursting at the seams. But no sense of menace and safe so far, day or night.

        • Go to Munich Central Station if you want to see all manner of Third World wildlife.

          That is all.

    • Having lived in one of the most dangerous cities on earth, the bad areas of European cities strike me as amusingly quaint.

      • Can confirm.

        Walking on the streets of Baltimore one can sense palpable danger if one has that particular sixth sense attached to their person. I dread the times where I’m forced to enter Baltimore City though thankfully they are few and far between these days.

        I wrote a comment a few months back about how comical I find the oblivious white female inhabitants in particular of Baltimore. They go bopping around the city like they are in Tokyo or Singapore in a manner I find comical. It is no wonder nignogs prey on white liberals because they are simply really easy targets.

        That level of cluelessness and naivete perhaps should be mercilessly capitalized on. Would help clean the gene pool at the very minimum.

        • Around 20 years ago my wife and I went to the Poe House, which apparently is located in one of the worst areas of Bawlmer. But it was broad daylight, there were few pavement apes about, and I wasn’t particularly concerned. As we approached the Poe House I noticed a police cruiser parked out front. I parked a bit behind it, and as soon as we exited the car a female copper sallied forth from the house, hurriedly bundled us inside, slammed the door and bolted it. I daresay Poe never conceived of anything so horrifying as the American negro.

      • A few years back I briefly attended a conference in B-more as part of a multi-city travel week.

        I didn’t get into BWI until maybe 11pm. I just remember the Uber ride to my downtown hotel and seeing…many….youths hanging in the streets at midnight, on a school night no less!

        I’m an unfortunate non-stop traveler and that experience still stands out as unique. Even in New Orleans, which has REALLY gone downhill the last 5 years, I haven’t seen such widespread shadiness.

        • I should add though, arriving in Denver for a conference earlier this year, I had been on the ground less than 5 minutes and saw some street urchin, Caucasian, smoking meth quite openly. Was maybe 3pm.

          • Of all the cities I’ve visited, St. Louis is the one that gave me the worst feeling. Was looking over my shoulder every moment I was there. Hated that place. And New Haven, Connecticut, of all places, wasn’t a whole lot better.

  17. Low birth rates is a down-stream effect of the general malaise that credentialism and managerialism has on a population. It dulls the senses and makes people act like robots, ignoring the more primal aspects of their being and their sense of rootedness.

    For most men, the vitality comes from conquest in some form, which is why all our tech pioneers famously skipped college to conquer the new technological realm. Who cares about being a cog when there is space to conquer?

    For most women, their primal vitality comes from childbirth and childrearing. Modern societies suck away their sense of self and primal urges through countless years of getting rewarded to sit in docility in a classroom for the equivalent of a star sticker. Modern society has also hacked their intuition to seek status oriented institutions into an either/or proposition. Be high status or have lots of kids. Just a couple generations ago, it was high-status to have seven or eight kids in many subcultures.

    • Iceland’s TFR is only 1.7…higher than Germany, but down from 4+ a few decades ago…They don’t hate themselves, but they don’t love themselves enough…

      • Its a tiny island with limited room for growth. Its natural maximum population is about that of Colorado Springs on the low end (around 300k)

        It only need a dinky increase to reach equilibrium.

  18. @Z Man – I’m glad to see you giving attention to demographic issues. Extinction from (massively) sub-replacement Total Fertility Rate is the other side of the coin from extinction by population replacement (mass immigration).

    Both issues lead back towards the nature and strength of fundamental human motivations. It would have been inconceivable even just five generations ago that humans would voluntarily choose self-extinction despite unprecedented prosperity and (until recently) security.

    The only exceptions are among the isolationist religious groupings, and among those too feckless and low in intelligence to be able to care about (or implement) their long-term preferences.

    So, loss of religion/ atheist-materialism was probably the underlying cause of sub-replacement TFR — and, perhaps, the willing embrace of population replacement.

    The self-hating suicidal nature of mainstream modern materialism is something to behold! Iceland was essentially one big family (everybody knew their relatedness to everybody else – like hobbits!) and had near zero immigration from aliens just a generation ago. …But now the proportion of the population born abroad seems to be 20% or more, which is much like the UK, where I live – Iceland ‘gave-up’ and cut their own throats almost overnight.

    Although atheistic materialism was the original cause, I have begun to suspect there may Now be an additional and significant *biological* element of Mouse Utopia mutation accumulation that is causing the collapse of human reproduction; as I argued here:

      • Amusingly some Folkish Neo Norse Pagans are getting on the fertility train . They are not a large group but apparently they are becoming pro natal pro child and pro White folk

        The absurdity of that is its now more possible for Norse Raiders to be pillaging Amish and Christian Settlements in a couple of centuries than for us to have exoplanet colonies

  19. You know, Angus Deaton kicked off this discussion about deaths from despair – the idea that Whites were killing themselves, often very slowly, because of the lack of meaning in their lives. So, you count suicide, drinking deaths, drug overdose, and so on as more or less dramatic suicides and you get a shocking number of people who simply do not care to keep living.

    But such can be a problem for societies, also.

  20. “What all this suggests is that it is not the past that haunts the modern West, but the present that is the source of the crisis.”

    Close. Westerners rightfully fear the future, particularly the near term. Fearful societies tend not to reproduce, not to diminish elements such as r/k selection and so forth. The decline and disappearance of the GAE either will complete the destruction of the West or permit it to rise from the ashes. I can’t believe I’m writing this, but the latter is more probable (barring self-inflicted extinction from nukes). Panic about the periphery peeling off and the continued existence of nationalism even within the beating heart of the empire indicates I’m not alone in that assessment.

  21. I was talking with Audacious E about my theory on birth rates:

    Obviously the more conservative people in the us are going to have more children than those who aren’t – but it won’t really effect our politics. The reason being is that it will only be felt in already conservative areas.

    Look at somewhere like Orange County, CA. It used to be a bastion for the republican party and even the john birch society. It’s population increased eight fold between 1950 and 1980. It’s still nowhere as liberal as the rest of California – but it’s not a republican stronghold and is more politically marginal.

    The people in Orange County that still vote republican probably have more kids on average than the democratic voters. But that is offset by the republican voters probably being less likely to have there kids stay in Orange County.

    • The Amish are the answer for the white race in the US. Mind you, it is not what I WANT.

      I ENJOY soap, hot showers, internet, plentiful & cheap food (which I don’t have to grow or kill), antibiotics, aircraft, automobiles and nuclear power plants. Unfortunately, under the current GloboHomo regime, I fail to see how our sacred diversity will be able to provide or maintain any of those things.

      • I’m not as worried wrt Amish. What’s their burn off rate wrt their children leaving when of age. They can be a supply of good White people. Also their are off shoots of the sect that are not as conservative.

      • I wouldn’t be concerned about that. Baring radical life extension none of us will be around for that level of collapse.

        Drooping to Forever 1710 or maybe 1930 is a couple of centuries off

  22. “They were sure lockdowns would result in a baby boom, but when that did not happen, they went about pretending that it happened anyway.”

    there’s a reason why bill gates pushes for african women to get access to higher education.

    women become entitled when they come out of college, they see themselves as better than blue collar guys and don’t want to marry them, east asians have the same demographics problem.

    Indians have it under control cause they practice arranged marriages.

    immigration wouldn’t even be a problem if european men started slapping women’s diplomas out of their hands.

    • i was listening to a podcast this weekend and they said that’s a myth. College educated women are less likely to divorce than non-college educated women. It might be a correlation not causation thing – but something to keep in mind

      • It doesn’t matter if they are less likely to become divorced, What matters is their TFR. Hitting the wall after a couple decades of life on the carousel and deciding to get a provider who will fertilize the last egg in the carton does have a certain stability about it, but that just shows what a chimera a measure like the divorce rate can be.

    • “immigration wouldn’t even be a problem if european men started slapping women’s diplomas out of their hands.”

      Do you want to live with diversity, even if women are tamed?

      Do you want to spend a huge amount of societal energy in forcing non-whites to approximate whites?

      Do you want to see your people turn mystery meat brown?

      • The Dissident Right can’t yet bring ourselves to the obvious conclusion that authoritarianism and a dictatorial rightist interregnum is the way through the current mess.

        All in all the hardest part though is convincing the horrendous cost to get that is worth it. I am far from sure it is myself and I’m about as DR as DR can get

        Amusingly though the White Border Normies I know (high IQ, aware but still within the system) granted not a huge number are getting the need for this pretty fast maybe because they have different cognitive blinders than we do

    • Yes, the higher education of women is a major factor in the declining birth rates…the other major factors being urbanization and declining religious beliefs…These are major reasons why they want us living in “15 minute cities”…

      • We already have a real-world 15 minute city.

        It’s called, “Singapore.”

        Check out their TFR.

        • Yep and that is with an actual pro natal eugenic government

          Reality is cities are population shredders and by their nature will always have lower fertility and/or higher mortality.

          Now that countryside and small towns are depleted (caveat migrants) population will decline

          The only risk and its too long for our concerns here is that a bad enough decline could destroy the cities do to no one being able to maintain them

          They’ll be scavved out and become farmland in that case leading to a smaller less urban population

    • I think the arranged marriages vs. WEIRD/Romeo-Juliet is the most overlooked factor in all the opinionating I read about fertility for the past 20 years or so. NY Times writers and NPR hosts seem to have skipped that chapter of human history, they have no concept of populations’ various demonstrated needs for guidance in even the recent past.

      They seem to imagine some scenario where modern capitalist units will start families ab nihilo, or perhaps in order to advance LGBT acceptance.

  23. “It should be noted that both societies are extremely feminized. They reek of estrogen.”

    @ least in Germany’s case think that is by design; as heretofore noted, the Allies humiliation was so complete by about Spring of 1942 that the general agreed principle seems to have been crush Germany & the Prussian spirit by any means necessary & never let it rise again. Also didn’t help that two generations of German Alpha males were six foot under. Germany’s been a vassal state of the U.S. since 1945 & kept in line by shoving everybody’s favorite Austrian & the Holocaust in their face every five minutes. German friend of mine who’s a veteran of the German Navy has stated to me that anyone who comes along in the military exhibiting martial spirit is labeled an “extremist “ & bounced out before they can “infect” anyone else.


    • It’s easy to understand why the GAE became so enamored with nation building: because it was so wildly successful at it in Germany. (and Japan). It’s blind spot was its failure to note that the reason it was so successful was because all the people involved were Germans. Or rather, white and east Asian (to include Japan). The blind spot became unimaginably large, preposterously large, when repeated failures to build/rebuild other nations did not, at all, bring any awareness of these facts, no recognition, whatsoever, of the obvious and fundamental differences between the successful rebuilds and the failures. The fact that the rebuild was successful in Japan deluded it into believing that it had nothing to do with race, since it wasn’t just white Germans. A refusal to ask itself the most basic of questions, because the questions were forbidden.

      • JZ-

        I’d add South Korea to the list of GAE-built nations.

        Their present society would look totally different without the Korean War. Instead, we have an Eastern Asian nation that in some ways resembles an ersatz version of America.

      • That should be a new catechism right there; Zoomers may not remember it but during the Iraq War there were serious burblings published from name thinktanks about applying the lessons of Germany/Japan conquest to the Bronze Age peoples of Mesopotamia. Needless to add this shi’ite is outright funny to read today.

        • YOU think it’s funny, but Condoleeza Rice doesn’t.

          I heard her say recently that nation-building in Afghanistan didn’t work because we didn’t give it enough time. I couldn’t make that up. Listen to the Uncommon Knowledge podcast 397 from July 31 2023.

          I can’t believe she is so stupid as to believe that. She must be saying it to keep the cash flowing in…

        • I remember those ramblings, even as a younger Xer.

          Pretty sure that other proconsuls like Bremer and Gates said similar things.

      • The vast majority of post-war Americans in high places had and have a nursery school understanding of race, and this ignorance has proved catastrophic.

    • For Germany it was the (((Morgenthau))) Final Solution stretched out into an installment plan, with each succeeding generation torturously warped and brought to heel. Of course in West Germany, they had the incentive of not being brought under the communist heel, sort of a devil or the deep blue sea dilemma; neither option comported well with the ultimate well being or natural expression of the Volk. The west Europeans wanted a nice, tame cow to milk to support their socialist welfare state, so they helped to apply pressure for the (((Morgenthau))) plan, but only in matters of culture, self-image, and national pride – those things were insidiously diverted into a type of sublimation so that the undeniable energy of Germany could be meekly harnessed to their ends.

      The British and the French lost whatever benefit that their mercantilist colonialism brought to them, as their colonies were either outright lost, or hollowed out, but the free access of their third world, former dependencies to immigration was retained; the (((Kalergi Plan))) went into overdrive, and the essentially internally borderless nature of the EU (suicide pact) permitted western Europe to be enlisted into the (((Kalergi Plan))) either willy nilly, or with malice aforethought in the hands of Merkel and other globalist scum. Fiendishly sly, satanically evil.

      • Regarding the” mercantilist ” British empire; why do you use Leftist tropes?

        The reason the British gave up on empire is because it cost too much to sustain. How did Britain parasite off Germany?

        I expect you believe Britain and Europe became wealthy through black genius.

        • I am afraid your knowledge concerning British mercantilism is highly deficient. Here is a quick overview of this topic:

          The colonists in our original 13 colonies were treated as tenants, with little rights to determine the trade policies and the taxation imposed by the British Empire; our forebears contributed not only trade, but blood toward the prosecution of the Empire’s wars (such as what was known here as the French and Indian War, a theater in a larger, globe-spanning war between the British and ither European powers), but had no representation politically. This came to be characterized as “Taxation without Representation”, and was seen as a violation of the ancient rights of Englishmen. This largely was a product of the mercantilist policies of the British Empire in the views of the colonists, completely fair or not.

          As an aside, similar policies applied in other colonial holdings such as in India. Look up Gandhi’s campaign against the import mandates on salt, and learn another way mercantilism manifested elsewhere.

          Leftist tropes? Not hardly, rather observations about the cozy relationship between the interests of the Crown, and those of industrialists and royal corporations. We here on the Dissident Right call them as we see them; unions of government and industry/capital can come from either the left or the right, and in either of these forms can and will infringe upon individual freedoms.

          The reason Britain had to surrender its colonies was because the Americans wanted hegemony through their own brand of neoliberalism, if anything more rapacious , and less beneficial than the policies of the British, and more tyrannically disposed, both abroad and here at home.

          I said nothing about Britain parasitizing Germany, that first part of my xomment was concerned with the implementation of coercive plans aimed specifically at Germany, but more broadly at all white European nations, these policies being Jevvish in their fundamentals.

          And your final farrago had nothing whatsoever to do with my comments. Work on your reading comprehension, Soggy, it will do you good.

    • The Morgenthau Plan never really ended.

      Herbert Hoover reviewed it and said it would lead to the death of 25 million Germans…a bit much even for the voracious appetite of a nascent GAE.

      Hard not to look at Germany today as it gets demographic replacement and de facto deindustrialization that a certain sub group in the GAE isn’t getting what they wanted after all these years.

  24. “What is not hard to figure is that in societies where girls pretend to be boys, the girls do not grow up to be mothers.”

    Superb closing line. It turns out that emulating men is not terribly compatible with motherhood. Who’d have guessed?

    The biggest problem with the West today is extreme Feminization. Sure, there’s endless trouble related to Diversity, yet if we could get a handle on the predicament between the sexes, properly addressing Diversity would likely be a cinch. However, so long as feminine virtues such as Inclusiveness and Non-judgmentalism rule the roost, we’re cooked. The ladies will have to go back in the kitchen at some point.

    • In a truly feminized society, why would women seek to behave in a masculine manner? Why would they seek to become “toxic”? The real problem with postmodernity on the sexual front is sexual inversion. Men behave like women and women like men. This is profoundly perverse, and can only end in disaster. And it is doing just that.

      • “Feminized society” means longhouses, i.e. biological women getting the whip hand relatively more of the time. Their adjacents like gays and DREAMER vagabonds also derive some benefit from this. something out of the deal. Actual femininity has nothing to do with it and is actually only ever expedient in parody form (“I’m outraged, so outraged, that Nine West is selling ‘husband-hunting shoes’).

    • One symptom of the feminization of society is the obsession with safety. This is much worse in the western part of the West, especially the Anglo countries than in the eastern part (ex-commie countries of Central Europe). Excessive focus on safety is very paralyzing.

      • Absolutely. There’s little more contemptible than a grown man–usually white, alas–tooling around his safe, suburban nabe on his bicycle while wearing a crash helmet and padded up like he’s scaling the south face of Dhaulagiri. Pah.

        • And ironically there is also an indifference to threats of a more immediate and serious nature. The insistence on being safe from stubbing one’s toes is coupled with a perverse indifference to the collapse of the culture through subversion and invasion.

    • Ah, but they don’t emulate men in reality, merely the access to power and sayso that comes with their valorization in the workplace, and most crucially, in the vote. The feminization comes in the triumph of Feelz Über Alles, a disasterously short sighted policy, but it gives them the warm tinglies. This, coupled with the downgrading of men in the community, their economic dislocation, and discouragement from the expression of masculine patterns of behavior and thought (actually, it goes beyond discouragement…if your young men act like boys, put them on ritalin or, after their inherent lack of worth in the eyes of the Matriarchy becomes clear to them, onto SSRIs, for the kill shot). To survive in the grip of the Matriarchy, their spiritual castration leads to them being even further disparaged. The downward spiral…

      • They certainly do emulate men. Women in 1953 had no interest whatsoever in playing professional basketball, let along boxing. Today, prodded by You Go Girl! Feminism, they imagine themselves Shaquille O’Neals and Mike Tysons rather than Peggy Lees and Audrey Hepburns.

  25. I liked the Germans better when they were men like Manfred von Richthofen or Erwin Rommel: honorable enemies. Like other commentators, I generally think women’s education and work opportunities are the killers for even a replacement fertility rate–give women options and they’ll take them. One can tweak fertility with pro-natal policies, but the solution would be to give men explicit preferences in both education and the workplace–a “family provider preference” of sorts. That is, of course, at present about as likely as a return to hereditary monarchs who rule rather than just reign.

    • Wasn’t there a study somewhere that showed that deployment of TVs in a society lead to a lower fertility rate? Ah yes:
      There is evidence of a very substantial association between access to mass media and the level of fertility in a country. That is true at the most aggregated level, when national levels of per capita television access are used to predict fertility rates. There is a strong association of the natural log of fertility with televisions per 1,000 population for 144 countries for which data are available (Figure 7–1). Excluding four oil-rich outlier countries, a regression equation fitting a linear and quadratic term shows that televisions per capita accounted for 74 percent of the variance in fertility in 1997. This is a substantially better prediction of fertility than one gets from measures of gross national product per capita (indicated by an index of purchasing power parity) or indices of female education.
      Leaving the link off to avoid the spam filter but the more likely case then is an issue with modernity generally instead of any one specific thing, unfortunately.

      • Celebrity kills fertility. It gives women the emotional equivalent of porn-induced impotence (a much rarer phenomenon).

        Girl sees Frank Sinatra on TV, can’t feel anything for Frankie from geometry class anymore. Runs away to the city/college/workforce to find her meta-alpha. At best becomes a professor’s or boss’s mistress. No more baby booms.

        Seventeen magazine was the Great Filter.

        • H-

          Don’t forget women’s, “romance novels,” which are basically filth wearing the skinsuit of quasi-respectability.

          • Margaret Mitchell in the 1920s became professionally interested in historical gynoporn as a technical challenge (which went with reading a lot of Havelock Ellis). In retrospect she got a few social trends right, while missing others…

      • The fascist racial state of South Africa prohibited outside television until 1976 because they feared the negative effects it would have on their population. Their worst fears have been realized.

        ‘Dr. Albert Hertzog, Minister for Posts and Telegraphs at the time, argued that “the effect of wrong pictures on children, the less developed and other races can be destructive”.[1] Declaring that TV would come to South Africa “over [his] dead body,”[4] Hertzog denounced it as “only a miniature bioscope which is being carried into the house and over which parents have no control.”[5] He also argued that “South Africa would have to import films showing race mixing; and advertising would make Africans dissatisfied with their lot.”‘

        • Line: Dr. Hertzog wasn’t wrong. I’m always amazed at what people let their children have access to, or when even commenters here claim it’s impossible to control their kids’ access to electronic media. Our kids weren’t raised in total isolation or cultural “purity,” but they didn’t have ipads (or even many electronic toys) as toddlers. We controlled their tv viewing, and they were among the very few without a cellphone at their Christian schools.

          They both have and use technology now, of course, and don’t agree with us on everything, but they are racially and culturally aware. They are far from perfect but are not druggies or sexually degenerate.

          It takes a bit of will power and some active, actual parenting, but it is far from impossible. It gladdens my heart to see my son taking my grandson to the park whenever possible, just as he was taken as a child. I read and sang to my children (nursery songs and classic hymns) and got them outside whenever possible. The biggest thing is that I actually enjoyed being with them and didn’t outsource their upbringing to daycare, nannies, or television.

    • Oh, if only Bill Gates would promise to pay married white women 25 thousand for each child born in the next 10 years..problem solved. The costs of daycare are horrendous and the choice of providers is terrifying, imagine Shaneekwa bitch slappin yo baby while you at work. Some women would be glad to stay home and procreate but their mortgage and student loan payments prohibit it..and since Kevin got laid off and is currently working part time at Starbucks they need her income anyway.

  26. Like early America, it is a deliberate society created by a founding population.

    Also, Medieval Iceland had no executive branch: no government, no budget, no cops, no military, no tax collectors, no pencil pushers. You were supposed to take care of law enforcement yourself, and only bring matters to the local thing-moot that couldn’t be settled by the citizens themselves.

    • I did a post on the Republic of Iceland:

      I also used Iceland as an example of why libertarianism cannot work. It should have worked on Iceland, but people being what they are, one group reached out to Norway in order to dominate the other group and the experiment ended.

  27. What’s needed is a pope who not only rails against abortion, but contraception and divorce, and orders his bishops to do the same. Even the Protestants and Eastern Orthodox would catch on. We haven’t had that since Pius XII in the 1950s, when we had the Baby Boom and there was little feminism. Even John Paul II, although excellent in his often opaque writing, only occasionally talked about it otherwise. And he gave us such hideous bishops as Bergoglio, now his successor. Something to pray for.

  28. The main cause of demographic collapse is the education of women. Young women between 16 and 25, the prime reproductive ages, are kept in schools or in jobs. There is a strong negative correlation between highest degree held and offspring. A Ph. D. usually means no children.

    Beside reproductive collapse, there is also a decline in intelligence. Someone has called the modern university an “IQ shredder.” But doubtless there are other factors. Studying the correlation between reaction times (for which data go back to the late 19th Century), some British scientists concluded that British IQ’s had declined some 15 points, a full standard deviation, over 150 years.

    • Spot on re: education level and child bearing.
      As for IQ in the UK – down just 15 points? I’d have estimated more like 30. (I’m in a ‘glass half full’ frame of mind today).

        • The uS is the lowest performer in the PISA tests, including against Britain. If you only included the English we’d beat you hollow. Celts have lower average IQs than the English.
          IQ Hierachy-ascending order:Scots;Welsh,Irish,English.

    • Bob and Stranger you both put me in mind of Ed Dutton and his constant point that IQ in UK peaked about 1870 and has been in decline ever since.

      Industrial Revolution leading to higher quality of life and too many mutants reaching adulthood to reproduce and … here we are today.

    • That the reverse Flynn effect. Ed Dutton has much to say on this. Yes, lack of a strong evolutionary culling effect allows many “spiteful mutants” to exist and therefore a generational decline in intelligence. Universities don’t help much either, but they don’t really have a genetic influence. They just create faux courses of studies and hand out worthless degrees—something akin to the scarecrow character in Wizard of Oz.

    • The term “IQ shredder” comes from the dissident right (coined by someone who called himself Spandrell) and was originally used to describe Singapore or any other modern high-tech location that attracts high IQ people, who get material rewards for their work, but fail to procreate, because who has time to do that while making a lot of money in a highly competitive environment. In a broader sense it applies to the whole modern society.

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