The Post-Citizen World

Steve Sailer likes to promote an idea he calls citizenism, which is the general idea that a government should place the interests of its current citizens ahead of the interests of non-citizens or potential future citizens. It is pretty much what we call civic nationalism now, but a dozen years ago that meme did not exist, even though the concept has been with us since the founding of the country. The Founders certainly thought the point of government was to serve the interests of the current citizenry and their posterity.

Civic Nationalism is largely a reactionary idea today. Like various forms of socialism, it lacks a root system in the soil of the current culture. In a world in which people of European heritage are a tiny minority and increasingly minorities in their own lands, bourgeois notions of fair play and orderly debate are anachronism. We see that whenever a populist candidate or party wins power. The rules go out the window and the ruling elite goes to war with the rebels, using any means necessary to stop them.

An orderly debate about what is best for the citizens of a country is impossible because the people in the ruling elite of the West define themselves in opposition to the notion of citizenship. That’s what it means to be a post-nationalist Progressive. The whole point of it is to oppose those antiquated notions of citizenship. Those are exclusive and the new global person is open. Worse yet, citizenship is hierarchical, placing the interests of some over the interests of others. That’s probably racist.

You can get a sense of this in the response to Tulsi Gabbard’s decision to run for the Democrat nomination in 2020. Civic nationalists are programmed to think she is bad, because she makes unapproved noises about economics. They will no doubt says she is a socialist. That’s the result of being trapped in a forgotten era. None of that will matter to the people in charge, particularly those involved in Democrat politics. They see her as a threat to their conception of the new global citizen. Here’s an example.

“But Gabbard’s almost singular focus on the damage these wars inflict domestically, and her comparative lack of focus on the carnage they wreak in the countries under attack, is troubling. It is nationalism in antiwar garb, reinforcing instead of undercutting the toxic rhetoric that treats foreigners as less deserving of dignity than Americans.”

You’ll note two things that turn up in the Progressive criticism of Gabbard. One is her roots are inauthentic, as far as they are concerned. She does not have the appropriate struggle narrative. An essential element of the left-wing mindset is the assertion that only the oppressed have authenticity. Therefore, to assume a leadership position in the forever revolution of the oppressed, the leaders must have overcome oppression. Gabbard has lived the standard American middle-class life, so she can never be trusted.

The salient issue lies in that highlighted section. Gabbard’s opposition to fighting wars in the Middle East is pretty much the civic nationalist view. Those wars are not good for America or Americans. They may have some benefit to the ruling elite of the empire, but they have no benefit to Americans. Further, the people being sent to fight these wars are suffering for a cause that has no benefit to them. In other words, to sacrifice for your people is noble and heroic. To suffer for strangers is pointless.

To the ideological core of the ruling elite, this is an abnegation of who they are, which is why you will hear lots of “this is not who we are” in response to her over the coming months. Just as the Left refused to defend Sanders against attacks from the Buckley conservatives in 2016, the Left will stand silent as the warmongers of neoconservatism hint that Gabbard is an alt-right anti-semite. Her assumption that citizenship is a real thing implies that nations are real things and that’s unacceptable in a post-nationalist world.

This is why civic nationalism is a dead end movement. It’s trying to reanimate an Enlightenment concept that was killed off by the post-war cultural revolution of the last fifty years. Reviving the old notions of civic identity is about as promising as reviving the monarchy in Germany. Thinking about it is a nice escape for those struggling to face the reality of identity politics, but that’s all it is, a fantasy. The world created by the Left is a post-nationalist world and therefore a post-citizen world.

In fairness to the cosmopolitanism globalists, they are not wrong about citizenship having no place in the future West. It can continue on in the Visegrad countries that have escaped the migrant invasion, but even there it is more of a tribal response, an identity politics of an ethno-state, than civic nationalism. Otherwise, citizenship makes no sense in multicultural, multi-racial societies. Tribalism is not just part of the human condition, it is part of our biological reality, and therefore the future is some form of tribal politics.

Another glimpse of this will come from the alt-right, who will be enthusiastic supporters of Gabbard this year. They see her anti-war rhetoric as a sanitized version of their own opposition to Israel. In other words, there remains a great shallowness to the alt-right in these matters, but that shallowness is a glimpse of future politics. That is, who you are will be as much about who you oppose as who you support. Anyone familiar with the politics of Lebanon has a sense of what comes next for the multicultural democratic empire.

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DeBeers Diamonds
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DeBeers Diamonds

Gabbard has a strange background. The Platonic ideal fulfillment of Boomerdad conservatism. She’s a highly ambitious and man-eating GI Jane, and it wouldn’t surprise me that she privately regrets at least part of that given that she isn’t likely to ever have children. Gabbard is simply the adult-sized version of gunthots like Kaitlin Bennett.

MikeCLT
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MikeCLT

Z-Man,

You are outdoing The Derb in the “We Are Doomed” department. However, I cannot say that you are wrong.

Primi Pilus
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Primi Pilus

We must plot out a way ahead, otherwise we can only sink into despair. I see it happening with some few of my like-minded friends; I feel it myself. We have to do this if for no other reason than to maintain sanity. I believe we can’t give in, even if it means we just go down fighting in what might be a lost cause … this go around. Far back I recall something in Sartre’s fictional writings about a Frenchman deciding go join up and die with a group of Chasseurs as the Germans over-ran their nation. I find… Read more »

Maus
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Maus

I, too, find myself on the precipice of a paralyzing depression over the events unfolding in the past few years. The anti-white sentiment has accelerated to the point that merely having ever expressed a so-called toxic opinion condemns one to an economical and social opprobrium. My friends have long noted that while I like to think and talk, I have a bias against action (a fancy way of saying that I procrastinate). But I am tired of stewing in frustration, anger and disgust at the filth who have destroyed our once great culture and its political expression in the west.… Read more »

Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
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Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman

Just don’t act before the proper time (you’ll know when that comes) or by doing the wrong thing(s). The future is by no means certain. Extrapolating from present conditions along a linear path into the future is by no means a “safe bet.” The future is always surprising. Nor are we helpless or stupid people.

Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
Guest
Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman

Nor can I say that Zman is wrong, but I also can’t say that he is right on this one. The future is never a linear continuation of the present. What is happening now will not always be happening. Nor will it necessarily lead to where it *seems* to be leading at the present. Too many other things can happen, not the least of which is already underway: a worldwide currency crisis. And the Grand Solar Minimum and global cooling, which is already underway. When the crunch comes–which is must–then we shall see who gets to say in Western countries.… Read more »

Shrugger
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Shrugger

A lot of people who will eventually come to our side of the fight are desperately hanging onto civic nationalism. They can’t break the colorblind trance they were put in when they were kids. They see any deviation as full-blown racism, as bad as a physical lynching. The thought that whites have a different, and better, culture, can never be explored. Steve King’s peers denounce him unanimously, except for one guy who thought the denouncement was too mild.

One red pill at a time is taking too long.

Yves Vannes
Member

“Eventually” is a big problem. The longer people sit on the fence or willfully ignore and reject hyWhyte interests the less and less they have to fight and sacrifice for. We’re gaining sentiment, but sentiment ain’t action.

I’m no longer sure there’s a proverbial straw that will break the camel’s back.

Citizen of a Silly Country
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Citizen of a Silly Country

South Africa shows that whites will hold onto their colorblind CivNat dreams for a very, very long time, far longer than I would have imagined. I don’t know enough about the history so I could be wrong, but SA whites seem to be acting like the Jews in Nazi Germany.

I suspect that they’ll meet the same fate.

I don’t buy the whole Vox Day coming civil war stuff. South Africa, California, Texas, New Mexico, etc., point to whites quietly becoming minorities and hoping that their new masters treat them nicely.

Stina
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Stina

I think VD underscores his prediction with the rising tide of push back in Europe. They are further along than we are, in much smaller countries, yet not so far as SA.

Europe has stronger ties to nation-states than we do, though. Our concept of nation state was obliterated in 1787 and replaced with a collection of different nations.

Maus
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Maus

Not quite clear on what you attribute to American history in 1787 that decreased our conception of the nation state. Prior to 1787, we were a loose federation of 13 sovereign states bound by a weak central government for purposes of defeating Great Britain and culminating in the Articles of Confederation. After 1787, we adopted the much more nation-oriented U.S. Constitution by ceding enumerated state powers to a federal government. Almost immediately the historical impetus to centralize government and forge a strong national identity began transforming the former colonies. Eventually, nationhood had to be prosecuted by a bloody civil war… Read more »

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Felix_Krull

They are further along than we are. On what parameter? Western Europe is +90% white, America 61%. The US homicide rate is five-six times that of Western Europe and at regular intervals you have riots leaving entire town centres in smouldering ruin. And in Europe, a term like ‘civic nationalist’ doesn’t even make sense, in Europe, ‘nationalism’ implicitly means ‘white nationalist’ and our guys are storming the legislatures all over the mainland. In Europe, we don’t distinguish between legal and illegal immigration, we want it ALL stopped – polls vary between 50-75% on the issue, depending on country and who’s… Read more »

Citizen of a Silly Country
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Citizen of a Silly Country

Generally agree with you, except for one important point: Muslims. American whites are stupid for letting in millions of Mexicans, Central Americans and Asians. European whites are fucking suicidal for letting in millions of Muslims. Mestizos degrade Western civilization; Muslims destroy it. It’s almost like back in the late 1990s, German, French, English and other European leaders woke up to the fact that they were way behind the United States in the race to replace their own people with low-grade foreigners. Knowing they wouldn’t be able to catch up, they decided to import the absolute worst people possible: Muslims and,… Read more »

Member
Felix_Krull

The Mohammadans are an asset, not a liability. By being so repulsive, they prevent integration. Their odious religion is the main reason Europeans have woken up to the danger now, when they’re less than ten percent of the population. Also, they aggressively self-segregate, so there’s very little miscegenation going on, at least here in Denmark. Had they been relatively inoffensive Hispanics – or worse yet, intelligent and industrious Orientals – I don’t think we’d have seen the surge in nationalism we see in Europe today. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that Western Europe isn’t a decade or two away (if… Read more »

Citizen of a Silly Country
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Citizen of a Silly Country

Oh, you’re Danish. Enough said. Well done.

And good points about Muslims waking people up. Hope that you’re right. (Denmark certainly seems to have been roused from its slumber.) European countries still have the numbers on their side. You can fix the problem within the current system.

That option is no longer available to American whites.

Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
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Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman

Agreed.

Chief
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Chief

There is literally ZERO chance that the coming minority white population in the West will be treated with anything even close to the respect, or forced deference, let alone given the attempts at “understanding”, that we have afforded the, let’s say, more heavily pigmented while we were still the majority.

We need to snap to, and quickly. And it would also help if we got mean.

Citizen of a Silly Country
Guest
Citizen of a Silly Country

No, they will not.

Whites are about to learn why peoples throughout history had fought and died to create their own homelands. Being a minority sucks.

Member

Don’t count us out.

There are too many Daltons, Wade Garrets, Tom Doniphons, Shanes, Joe Starrets, and Josie Wales who will carry the day.

Member
Felix_Krull

Vox is crazy. Erratically brilliant, but mad as a hatter, and his followers are a bunch of Red Dawn larpers.

A.B. Prosper
Guest
A.B. Prosper

SA rural Whites are quietly preparing to go down fighting which they will. Its far more Warsaw Ghetto than Boxcars. They’ll probably be wiped out but if they are determined enough, maybe they can salt the earth on the way down The reason we assume this is not the case is the media doesn’t report anything that doesn’t serve the globalists corporate narrative. If you want proof, note the complete lack of coverage of the Yellow Vests who are left by our standards are populists through and through. France is on the verge of a shooting civil war and you… Read more »

Member

Witness all of the traffic cameras which have been smashed.

Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
Guest
Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman

Not to mention the reports yesterday that the banks have stopped withdrawals–even from ATMs–in response to the Yellow Vests’ request that everybody withdraw their money from banks to collapse the system. It was also reported yesterday that the police in France have been issued live ammo. Specifically around the Arc de Triomphe (but I’m assuming elsewhere as well).

A.B. Prosper
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A.B. Prosper

If it goes to Madame Guillotine I hope the Yellow Vests are thorough and remember its not just men that are corrupt but institutions

williamwilliams
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williamwilliams

A large proportion of the most pro-active and skilled South African whites have already left the country. Most of those who remain enjoy a higher standard of living than they could expect if they were to start a new life abroad.

The economic seduction of a large pool of cheap labor remains strong, and may well prove to be the undoing of more than one formerly-white society.

Member

Another aspect of tribal identity is religion. Tulsi Gabbard is a Hindu idolater, apparently as a result of a choice made as an adult. Will the Christian churches in the United States finally show some resistance and tell their members that they cannot, as Christians, vote for a Hindu idolater as a president?

And I would prefer the Hohenzollerns to the present leadership of Germany!

DeBeers Diamonds
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DeBeers Diamonds

We’ve had several Unitarians as President, and no one brokered much opposition to a Mormon. Ironically, Hindus recognize the Trinity while Jews don’t.

Toddy Cat
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Toddy Cat

If Gabbard comes around on the Second Amendment, I’d certainly vote for her, if Trump gets primaried by some zero like Romney. I’ll grit my teeth and put up with the Hinduism – I mean, Gabbard can convert, but cucking is a permanent condition, or so it seems with guys like Romney.

Member

Once elected, Gabbard would have no chance at accomplishing any of her primary agenda items. Look at what the Establishment have done to a powerful man like Trump. The press would gobble her up.

Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
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Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman

The Dem establishment will not allow her to be nominated. Just like Bernie.

DeBeers Diamonds
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DeBeers Diamonds

Gabbard is 3/4ths white and pretends to be an Asian. Nikki Haley pretends to be a white Southerner. Which of them pulls off the act better?

Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
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Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman

I think we’ve probably had our last peaceful presidential election. Everybody knows it already–but only unconsciously–that voting is precisely the mechanism by which “they” can gain power over “us,” and as soon as that knowledge becomes conscious, which it will, then the population as a whole will abandon voting.

Stina
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Stina

Hindus recognize the Trinity while Jews don’t.

Hinduism is a smorgasbord of religions, so it’s not too surprising they’d accept one more. It’s the “only God” that trips them up.

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

Members of the somewhat evangelical (Asian) Indian church that shares our sanctuary, like to describe Hinduism as a sort of spiritual cafeteria. There is no structure to the thing, just go up and help yourself to whatever you feel like that day.

Carrie
Guest

DeBeers:
Who are the Unitarians to whom you refer ?
Curious.

DeBeers Diamonds
Guest
DeBeers Diamonds

Adams, Jefferson, Adams, Fillmore, Lincoln, Taft

BestGuest
Guest
BestGuest

Modern-day Unitarianism bears no resemblance the Unitarianism of the 19th C. (I reckon we can say that about a lot of things, can’t we? ) The recent trend has been towards stripping out every last remnant of Christianity and adding the symbols and practice of virtually every other practice on the planet. We have friends that attend the the same church that Emerson did. I doubt Emerson would recognize it today. Of course it’s just a stones’ throw from the Paulist Center which strives to outdo it in terms of sheer Heresy.

A.B. Prosper
Guest
A.B. Prosper

Mormons are Christian, better than most Protestants and actually being dutiful although they are albeit whack on doctrine.

That said as someone on Vox Day’s blog put it, most churches are 501C3 Non Prophet so they won’t say much

Carl B.
Guest
Carl B.

All I know is the “White Tribe” is in deep, deep trouble going forward. And White elites stand ready to perform the estocada on a mortally weakened White Tribe – to the cheers of the Deep State.

See the Steve King fiasco and Mitt Romney’s pile-on as an example. We are on our own.

BestGuest
Guest
BestGuest

That was both eye-opening and disheartening.

A.B. Prosper
Guest
A.B. Prosper

There is no White Tribe, there are two tribes The White Right and the White Left with subgroups The GOPe is mostly part of the White Left and those that are not are with some justification terrified of anything that upsets the apple cart. Mostly because they are money cucks but also for the simple reason if the US goes tribal, it all ends , the grift is over and the nation for those that still believe in it goes with it A tribal US will end up like the Middle East with mutually hostile tribes fighting over everything and… Read more »

Cornelius
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Cornelius

The fact that during a shutdown, the US Congress unanimously voted to condemn yet another “white supreemacy” straw-man (at the behest of the ADL) while simultaneously demanding that Jewish nationalism be praised and anti-anti-semitism be institutionalized, was the blackest of pills for me. I really try to fight off any knee jerk anti-semitism but this is really starting to get to me.

Member

There’s an analogy between civic nationalism and how churches are run these days. Most of the lib churches have been run into the ground because of the kind of outreach programs they run. They go chasing after potential parishoners, and completely neglect the flock in the pews. Those people in the pews see this and quietly, slowly leave. And this only accelerates the problem because the church leadership sees an empty pew and proceeds to push harder in the outreach programs that caused the pew to empty in the first place. IOW, instead of going after the lost sheep of… Read more »

Carl B.
Guest
Carl B.

“Churchianity” is dead.

pyrrhus
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pyrrhus

You mean “Churchianity” is death, and its adherents will not survive…

JR Ewing
Member

Thing is, these lib churches aren’t trying to make any converts, at all. All they care about is virtue signaling that they’re not *that* type of Christian. They just meet on Sunday to talk about their therapist in the sky, but no one has to go to the same therapist that they do. They just need to agree that the lib church people aren’t racist.

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

“Therapist in the sky”. Good one. I’m stealing it.

Shrugger
Guest
Shrugger

Exactly what happened to the nominally Lutheran church I left. Hired a heathen pastor and became heathen. The new pastor is like you-know- who in the bunker, cooking up all sorts of schemes to bring in new, vibrant congregants. I suspect she will move on once her paychecks stop cashing.

Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
Guest
Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman

Get out now. I had to. It *can* be done.

A.B. Prosper
Guest
A.B. Prosper

Remember Matthew 18:20 in situations like this.

Member

Recently I’ve been watching a lot of those digital over-the-air rerun channels (like MyTV, Cozi TV, etc.) that play old shows from the 50s to the 90s. One of them that I’ve been following is MASH, which I haven’t watched any of since the 80s. Watching it now is a very odd experience. It was a highly politically charged show at the time, soaked in liberal sentiment – but it’s an earlier iteration of liberalism that has now been discarded and forgotten. Its antiwar, anti-empire sentiments – the very core of Cold War-era liberalism – seem so distant that it’s… Read more »

Member

God bless, you, sir [?], for watching so we won’t have to (like S. Sailer reads the Times so we don’t have to). I tried watching MASH reruns but found it insufferable enough, though you are right about 1.0 v. 3.0 sentiments. 1.0 is like being stuck in a church fellowship hall, 3.0 is like a Chinese re-education camp.

Mcleod
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Mcleod

Tribalism is biological. What is tribalism? Close family first, then extended family, then language, then race, and finally religion. I spent one school year in the rural area where my mother is from. The farm we were rebuilding, my parents are conservative hippies, was part of an original grant that an ancestor of mine received for fighting in the revolution for North Carolina. Three brothers and their widowed sister came to claim four land grants for service in the revolution. The first day on the rural school bus I found out that I was related to everybody for about five… Read more »

Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman
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Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman

And–at least in this part of the empire–that is still not rare.

Kentucky Headhunter
Guest

Gabbard spoke against the gay agenda in the past, how the hell did she get elected in Hawaii?

Gabbard was a visible force against same-sex marriage, and in 2004 spearheaded a fight in the state against a same-sex union measure. “To try to act as if there is a difference between ‘civil unions’ and same-sex marriage is dishonest, cowardly and extremely disrespectful to the people of Hawaii,” she said at the time. “As Democrats, we should be representing the views of the people, not a small number of homosexual extremists.”

Corn
Guest
Corn

“Gabbard spoke against the gay agenda in the past, how the hell did she get elected in Hawaii?” I’ve actually had discussions about this with a couple people who live or were raised in Hawaii. According to them the various Asian/Polynesian peoples who populate Hawaii often hold more traditional views on marriage and family. I believe (but I’m not sure) that the Mormons own or operate a university in Hawaii. Hawaii is one of the few states without a state lottery. I was told however, that Hawaiians vote Democrat on economic issues (historically unions wrested political power away from the… Read more »

DeBeers Diamonds
Guest
DeBeers Diamonds

They get rather testy if a white person calls themselves “Hawaiian” which is a magic word reserved for “Native Hawaiians”. Haoles and hapas must use “Hawai’i resident”. I wish we could do the same here, and call the 40% of the country what they are “paper citizens”.

BadThinker
Guest
BadThinker

South Park had a great takedown of Hawaii in the season 16 episode “Going Native”

bpromethiusb
Guest
bpromethiusb

Gabbard’s background is actually Hindu. Go figure…

Nathan
Guest
Nathan

In the spirit of anti-Colonialism, we need to cut Hawaii free. Useless state that gives us bad politicians and activist judges who really love “refugees,” but somehow Syrians and Somalians never get settled there.

BestGuest
Guest
BestGuest

I know a kid (brother of a friend) who went to Hawaii as part of one of those programs where they pay down your student debt for teaching in an “underserved” area. Mind you, this kid grew up in Dorchester and thought a tropical holiday would be a breeze. He made it through the end of one term. He’d buy his students flip-flops and their feckless “mothers” would sell them and send the kids back to school shoe-less the next day. Cured him.

Member

Didn’t he experience and observe heaping piles of dysfunction growing up in Dorchester?

BestGuest
Guest
BestGuest

I’m not in a position to say. He grew up in the last redoubt of white RC honky-town. There are parts that were lovely. Savin Hill was not only nice, but posh. People still come from miles around for “Dorchester Days.” The Richard family who lost their son in the bombings live there (transplants from Salem) as do many others.

Citizen of a Silly Country
Guest
Citizen of a Silly Country

Citizenism is the one issue that I have with Steve Sailer, whom I respect immensely. Steve just won’t give up Civic Nationalism. I don’t know if it’s a boomer thing or he fears that he would lose his position as the top “dark matter” intellectual if he crosses the white identity line. (Despite never using Steve’s name, many writers use Steve’s ideas. Steve has influence, something he might lose if he moved in a tribal direction.) Steve seems to be a pretty laid back guy who prefers incrementalism, so I understand his reluctance to move away from CivNat to white… Read more »

Wolf Barney
Guest
Wolf Barney

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I haven’t seen that Sailer has been promoting “citizenism” lately. I remember his debate many years ago with Jared Taylor. Around that time he used to talk about it a lot. Now, I don’t see much about it.

3g4me
Guest
3g4me

Sailer’s a smart guy, but as you note he refuses to step over the line. Always the clever phrase, the gentle mockery, the insistence that reason, logic, and humor will win the day. I am so OVER that crap. And his boomer/TradCon/fake American commentariat endlessly debating the same thing, in the same terms, week after week after week. There are a few there worth reading, but not enough anymore for me to justify spending my time there. I’ve never been one for endlessly spinning my wheels . . . I still scan his posts, but that’s about it.

Dupont Circle
Guest
Dupont Circle

Steve hates the idea if you wanna make an omelet you gotta break a few eggs.

Member

Z-man may be correct that citizenship has no future in the West, although his view from Lagos-on-the-Bay does not prevail everywhere. Certainly it’s in tatters. And if it collapses completely, that will be a big step backwards for the world.

Maybe the white tribe will finally build a floating Oceania, or maybe just BUY Australia and New Zealand and set up civic nationalism anew.

3g4me
Guest
3g4me

” And if [citizenism] collapses completely, that will be a big step backwards for the world.”

So you love multicultural, multinational empires as opposed to homogeneous nation states . . . why?

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

What is citizenship if not allegiance to the tribe of your nation? In this tribal world, citizenship has traditionally been one of the greatest of tribal identities, in which personal responsibilities are fulfilled and personal benefits accrue, all to the benefit of the nation and its citizens. “Love it or leave it”, indeed. But don’t stay here, sucking off the national teat, while at the same time, tearing it down and inviting everyone in to strip the joint, economically and culturally.

Member
Felix_Krull

What is citizenship if not allegiance to the tribe of your nation?

It’s allegiance to the state. “Citizenship” means you can become tribe by having a piece of paper stamped by the proper civil servants. Tribal loyalty is allegiance to your people.

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

“Our” people and “our” state used to represent pretty much the same thing, once upon a time. Divorcing the state from its people is a globalist’s wet dream. As is being pointed out today, citizenship makes no sense in a multicultural, multi-racial society. Render onto Caesar what is Caesar’s, render onto God what is God’s, and render onto each other what is shared by us. That’s how a nation-state becomes strong and vital. We need to form up and close ranks, and a nation that reflects who we are is so important. But that isn’t available to us any more,… Read more »

Member
Felix_Krull

a nation that reflects who we are is so important. In a tribe, there’s no ‘who we are’. You’re either tribe or you’re not, it’s got nothing to do with your beliefs or values or policies, only blood and soil. A big problem with the American identity, is that America has truncated its history, cutting off the roots, when, for the noblest of reasons, the founders decided they’d take the best from Europe and leave all the tribal crap behind. Americans no longer trace their spiritual ancestry to Athens, but consider America created ex nihilo in 1783. And something that’s… Read more »

Dupont Circle
Guest
Dupont Circle

“I sometimes suggest that heritage Americans should insist on being called “European-Americans”

I’m in.

dad29
Guest

the toxic rhetoric that treats foreigners as less deserving of dignity than Americans

Easily the most disgusting truth-twist of the last …ooohhhhhhhhhh…24 hours. But of course, these jackwads are PROFESSIONAL truth-twisters..

Member

“…citizenship makes no sense in multicultural, multi-racial societies.” The poor fools in service organizations like the Rotarians have yet to realize this. I understood in the late sixties that something very wrong had happened to our society. And I could not believe that our fathers would not go to the matt on something as basic as freedom of association. Yet, many of these former soldiers who had faced the Wehrmacht were now acting as though this meek surrender to racial egalitarianism would somehow work out fine because it was the moral thing to do. In other words, The Greatest Generation©… Read more »

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

What I saw was the attitude that “these kids are acting like children, they will get over it, give ‘em some slack and they’ll figure it out”. But they never did. Remember that the older generation saw the Great Depression and WW2 do that to their parents and themselves, forcing them on to the straight and narrow. Their kids, the Boomers, never got their version of 1929 and Pearl Harbor, so they never got forced into making good choices. Keep in mind, too, the wives became “equal partners” after WW2. Not in a bra-burning way, but as an influence at… Read more »

Member

What I saw was that the children of liberal parents became radicals. More of The Greatest Generation© were liberal than I had realized. Perhaps they themselves had not realized it. Their children drove the point home. I despised them. I’m not speaking in generalities here, but in reference to individuals I personally knew.

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

I am guessing there were some genuinely liberal parents out there in the ‘50s and early ‘60s (just before my time and my firsthand experience), but there were probably quite a few more passive parents who were not passionately “liberal”, but who did not push back. In the late ‘60s (what I saw), the many who didn’t push back were overwhelmed by the attitudes of the culture and their own kids. The widespread passivism to liberalism in the ‘50s turned into a gateway for the hippy culture to run amok a few years later. Just my slightly informed provincial opinion,… Read more »

Member

I had come to hate TV by then.

Member

It isn’t just the greatest generation that caved and never fought back. It is true of all generations. At some stage whites completely lost the ability to fight back to preserve their country and culture. Key causations are probably the mixture of a nearly monolithic assault by almost all institutions on the country combined with a mobile citizenry that wants to be left alone. The US population is made up of people who found a better place so they moved there. Once here they moved a lot: westward expansion, farms to city, city to suburb, suburb to city, state to… Read more »

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

If a perfectly sculpted multiculti, feminine, blue dog Democrat like Tulsi is now verboten, that tells me they’re getting ready to throw the gates wi-i-ide open. Apres Trump, Le Deluge.

Member

Definitely. The hammer is about to come down.

Ripple947
Guest
Ripple947

Tulsi’s form of Hinduism is a Hare Krishna offshoot cult led by one native Hawaiian named Chris Butler aka Jagad Guru Srila Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa. Her parents have been devotees for decades. Lots of info to be found on the search engine of your choice. Once this info becomes widespread her presidential ambitions are sunk.

For starters: https://www.meanwhileinhawaii.org/home/investigative-series-on-the-science-of-identity-sect-and-tulsi-gabbard

Christine
Guest

Thanks for sharing my series. Just a note – Butler is most certainly not Native Hawai’ian. He is a white man. His family moved to Hawai’i when he was a kid.

Ripple947
Guest
Ripple947

How cool that you comment on this blog. I thought Butler was a white guy born in Hawaii, thanks for the clarification.

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

Perhaps Israel is being positioned as a possible model to keep white hope alive: small, ethno, surrounded by hostiles; an escape valve for the patriot fringe, a vulnerable redoubt. Also a human shield, a deflecting target. Israel gets blamed for diaspora activities. Easy to put up lots of Israeli flags, drawing ire away from the rootless with no flag of their own. The cosmopolitan globalists keeping their conservatives on a leash, in other words. A reserve pool of necessary talent, a corral of valued breeding stock. The Rez, as the Hopi call their reservation in New Mexico.

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

“Next year, New Zealand!” Or Des Moines.
Johannesburg, probably. Gotta keep those white devils contained.

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

..

Vegetius
Guest
Vegetius

Can CivNat be a step on the way for conservatives and libertarians toward the dissident right, or must they make an ideological Great Leap across an ever-widening abyss, the other side of which they see Pepe, Spencer and Anglin waiting for them?

Citizen of a Silly Country
Guest
Citizen of a Silly Country

Having been there, I can say that for myself, it was a big leap. You have to face a very bleak future and, in many ways, mentally separate yourself for friends, family and neighbors.

I suspect that it’s similar to giving up a religion that everyone you know belongs to without telling them. I have a great family and many friends, but in a way, I’m much lonelier than I was before making the leap. There’s a big side of me that I can’t share with people. They live in a different reality than I do.

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

Amen, Citizen. Am there, doing that.

Member

Yes. Same here. I have some friends and family that call themselves conservative but they are still neck deep in wishful thinking…

calsdad
Guest
calsdad

The problem is that so many people are just immersed in the bullshit that spews out of advertising, the news media, TV, movies – etc. – EVERY DAY. How do you counter that? I know a few people – VERY few – who actively work to counter all that horseshit by reading right wing and libertarian writers and blogs online. It takes a LOT of work though. For about 12 years I had an email list with about 20 people on it that I would daily send out stories, news articles and commentary about whatever the most prominent topics were… Read more »

Member

Last week, having some computer issues at work beyond my ability to rectify, I called my computer tech who I had not seen in a three years and discovered that he had swallowed a big, fat red pill.

I was so excited! He had been a normie vanilla conservative.

3g4me
Guest
3g4me

“There’s a big side of me that I can’t share with people. They live in a different reality than I do.” Excellently put. My husband and I have felt this for quite some time. His colleagues -at least some of them – share some of his attitudes, but he’s still very careful in what he says and just how far he can go. I’ve never been close to my side of the family so it isn’t a big problem for me, and I’ve cut off former ‘friends’ that do not support the future I want for my sons. We have… Read more »

A.B. Prosper
Guest
A.B. Prosper

Civic Nationalism is what empires use to justify diversity and it has no place in a healthy or functional society. It needs to be replaced with real nationalism which has a strong ethnic component Relying on Civ Nat to get you anywhere is about as useful as a steady diet of Stephan Molyenaux or Jordan Peterson. Its junk food The US being a bit unusual might, might manage Whites as the main and only important ethnic component as a de-facto Nazi Free White Nationalism but odds aren’t good. The US will probably just fall apart if it doesn’t go Brazil… Read more »

Member
James LePore

Never date (or vote for) a woman you can hear ticking.

JR Wirth
Guest
JR Wirth

Gabbard is the symptom of a problem. Nowhere in either party is there a foothold of non-imperialism. The hypocrite Obama would jive around in his campaign about middle east wars, as he droned people every five minutes, and actually said “I’m really good at killing people.” No need to imagine what the NYT would say if Trump let that one slip. Trump is even worse, hiring that mustached freak show John Bolton. He’ll kill us all if Trump listens to him. So now you have this featherweight, Gabbard, saying these things and there is such a hunger on the left… Read more »

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

Inflation will set back the elites. Deflation will set back the rest of us. “Living within our means” begets deflation. And the elites will protect their own. Deflation is the 1930s all over again, where commerce slows to a crawl and the average person lives off of savings until the money runs out. I am betting on deflation, especially as Trump is, at his core, a borrow-and-spend inflationist. “Orange Man Bad” and “do the opposite of everything he does” means that “living within our means” and a big deflation are in our future. A bit out-of-the-box thinking, I know, but… Read more »

JR Wirth
Guest
JR Wirth

There will definitely be a deflationary period prior to the inflation, as asset inflation implodes. And by the way, we need it. I’m not paying 700k for a cracker box 1940s house in my neighborhood, even if I could swing it. I’m in the minority in that viewpoint, even though the last RE crisis was 10 years ago. But they’ll pretty much play the 2008 playbook only X 5, and blow up the place. People don’t see that asset price inflation is also inflation. The ultimate freedom, even during tyrannical times, is not owing anyone anything.

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

JR, you describe the popular scenario. What if TPTB simply shut off the money spigot and the deflation becomes permanent? Selective foreclosures and EBT cards turned on and off here and there to control the rabble? The African model where most people end up living in hovels and the fortunate few party it up in a walled and guarded Capital City? I don’t see where the elites will feel it necessary to destroy “their” currency to save the likes of us (talk about killing a multitude of birds with one stone by prolonging the deflation), and keep in mind Capital… Read more »

JR Wirth
Guest
JR Wirth

Most of them won’t think they’re destroying the currency. They’ll think they’re just re-inflating the economy like in 2009. But it won’t be that way. They’re not smart people. They’re book smart but lack all common sense and understanding. Modern Monetary Theory is totally ensconced in their world view (think Economist Magazine, and people who read it like it’s biblical truth). They’ll hold to it, no question. What they will say is In 2008 it took X dollars via currency swaps and QE to reflate. This problem is five times bigger, therefore we’ll just pump X * 5 new liquidity… Read more »

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

“Capital City’s assets will remain inflated and valuable as well”- you betcha.

Our impoverishment makes their Elysiums priceless; we will kill to get a chance for a ticket. Better a maid cleaning toilets in Heaven than a streetcorner lord in Hell.

Din C. Nuffin
Guest
Din C. Nuffin

I admire John Bolton. He doesn’t put up with anyone’s BS. Hawkish or not, I still admire him.

Member

“An orderly debate about what is best for the citizens of a country is impossible because the people in the ruling elite of the West define themselves in opposition to the notion of citizenship. ”

It’s becoming stranger and stranger to argue with liberals. I used to have policy debates with liberals, but they no longer care about specific outcomes of policy. Open borders and multiculturalism good, Orange man bad. White men bad. Global warming will kill us all. Green energy good.

I find them just remarkably uninformed.

Hoagie
Guest
Hoagie

I find them remarkably well programmed.

Dutch
Guest
Dutch

You can almost see the “if—>then” processing loops going on in their conversations.

Steve
Member
Steve

Z Man, you say “there remains a great shallowness to the alt-right in these matters.” I’ve spent some time reading and listening to prominent alt-righters, and what I hear is anti-immigration and anti-war rhetoric along with deep concern for the economic and social plight of average Americans (i.e., anti neoliberal global economics). This is chapter and verse of Trumpism. They also, of course, overlay on top of all of this white identity advocacy and opposition to Jewish/Israeli influence in US foreign and domestic politics (“anti-semitism”), neither of which is in the Trumpist canon. it seems to me that the “shallowness”… Read more »

Member
Felix_Krull

the “shallowness” of the alt-right canon is largely limited to the call for a “white ethnostate,”

As Devon Tracey – The Atheist Roo – said about the white ethnostate: “It’s like wishing the girls in Mortal Combat were real, because they’re hot. Nice thought, ain’t gonna happen.”

A.B. Prosper
Guest
A.B. Prosper

It can if weakness is not allowed and s single ideology is enforced.

You have to have to be a an authoritarian state willing to use force and willing to inflict human suffering in fundamentally innocent people

This isn’t possible until the tribal warfare phase which is just starting to heat up and will require the Right actually have an ideology and an ethos which they lack

Waiting for it happen though? Its not gonna happen

Member
Felix_Krull

Maybe. It’s not like people haven’t been hustled around in the twentieth century, but creating a white ethnostate in America would require population transfers that would make Stalin take a deep breath. As several bloggers have noted, part of the muh human rights scam, is the right of POCs to live among white people. will require the Right actually have an ideology and an ethos which they lack I’m actually less worried on that account. Europeans, and, a fortiori, British and Americans, have had the poisonous luxury of being able to dismiss race. When you’re so undisputedly on top of… Read more »

Citizen of a Silly Country
Guest
Citizen of a Silly Country

Yep, being on top for around 500 years will make you weak, sooner or later. From around 1500, whites were on a winning streak to about, well, now. That’s a very long time. Granted, for the first couple of hundred years, we still felt as though we just protecting ourselves, but certainly by ~1800 (probably before), we knew than no other people could match us. That level of success always breeds failure. It’s why we felt perfectly comfortable engaging in horrendous civil wars amongst the various European peoples. Whites in Western Europe, the United States, Canada and ANZAC are like… Read more »

Larkin Lover
Guest
Larkin Lover

Right, I took exception to the accusation of “opposition” to Israel. It’s not an opposition to Israel per se, rooted in some anti Jewish prejudice, but an opposition to the thrall in which Zionist interests hold our foreign policy. This is not fringe quackery, as evidenced by the mearshimer and Walt book. I’m sure Z knows all this; perhaps he’s jockeying for some mainstream position. To interpret their position, as I understand it, alt right pundits view Zionist power as a mere subset of broader domination of US domestic policy, extending to immigration policy, media bias, etc. the attitudes range… Read more »

Larkin Lover
Guest
Larkin Lover

Do you guys find my remarks tiresome?

Roger U
Guest

No. I’m new here, but I think alt-right might mean something a little bit different when they use it than when you do. For example, in the article Z-Man says the alt right will support this mixed race democrat because she’s anti war, but the alt right I’m familiar with wouldn’t.

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

Nope. I come here to hear the adults talk- adults like you.

Nathan
Guest
Nathan

I started to see the cracks in the left’s view of citizenship in the late aughts. I saw a prog on TeleviZION talking about protecting American workers by cutting H1B’s, but then he added, “But Indians deserve jobs too.” It was like a sci-fi movie where the robot has to act on two contrary commands and sparks start flying out of its head. It was summed up well when Irishman Robert Reich said we didn’t want new jobs going to “White male construction workers.” https://youtu.be/duQDVTczGbA The problem with citizenship and CivNat is that too many of the people who would… Read more »

JR Ewing
Member

“Indians deserve jobs too” This is the thing I struggle with most trying in to understand them. I like to think that I’m decent at the Leftist Turing Test: I understand why they want to “help people” by making transfer payments… I understand why they really do think the environment is crumbling… I understand why they think that two homos can play house just like a man and a woman… I disagree with it all, but I understand the reasoning. But what I DON’T understand is this idea that there is no difference between American citizens and anyone else in… Read more »

BadThinker
Guest
BadThinker

The talking points were all sent around about her yesterday and the drive-bys are all doing the same story.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-conservative-media-and-the-far-right-love-tulsi-gabbard-for-president?ref=home

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

Daily Beast: “Assad’s Favorite Congresswoman Runs For President”

She just won my vote, since we’ll be Syria, soon enough. Trump and Assad may be long lost brothers.

Politics of Lebanon, indeed- the formerly Christian remnant of a Phoenician empire.

Issac
Guest
Issac

I diaagree with the view that the alt right is shallow to oppose Israel. Neocons are technically our dogs in their fight. If we want to stem the ire of dissident whites, Israel will have to put them down.

You write about how few readers they have, but they have more than enough donors yet and will continue to provide many and public reasons for the white tribe to hate us. Hypocrisy animates the white soul like nothing else and there is no greater hypocrisy than the stalwart zionist who role plays a humanitarian at his adopted nation’s borders.

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

What is to laugh is to think Israeli citizens have any more say in their country than we do.

(That, and the idea that alt-right concern trolls give a flying fig about Palestinian rejects. I note that Palestinian Christians not heard about, either.)

Issac
Guest
Issac

The alt-right probably has no feelings about our struggle at all, but neither the average Israeli nor the average white American has an opinion that matters. But what does matter are our tribal politics. And when my tribe spends money on neocons, I fully expect the white tribe to elect anti-zionists. Neoconservatives aren’t nationalists and make nationalism impossible, except for us, so the only logical rebuttal to their influence by gentiles is to apply the anti-nationalist rhetoric of the neocon to us. Of course it’s all cynical, but that is tribal politics. As I have said before, I hold the… Read more »

Alzaebo
Guest
Alzaebo

Bravo! *standing ovation*
We are one in this. Nobody should die for Pipelinestan or Weapons, Inc.
“We” sow the same seeds.

Can’t these Kapitalists compete without all the killing in your neighborhood?

There was a time when both Israel and America were not just respected, but loved!

sirlancelot
Guest
sirlancelot

It’s amazing to see Legacy Americans clueless about their situation. Then again Boomers like myself have been brought up on media propaganda.

It is appalling to watch those old TV shows. Could be whites just don’t want to admit they were wrong all these years ? They seem to be incapable of becoming honest with themselves even to their own detriment.

If there is one bright light it’s the educated white starting to realize they too are slated for termination.

TomA
Guest
TomA

As is becoming evident in Europe, vibrancy eventually begets a cauldron of chaos in which the elites currently wielding power start to worry about their security and demand a crackdown using State power. Inevitably, more than a few malcontents and innocents will get mowed down in the ensuing overreaction, and incipient tyrannists will exploit rising public fears in order to seize power. A successful tyranny needs Jackboots on the ground and ruthless oppression to ascend to power, and history teaches that there is really only one way to beat a tyranny.

Din C. Nuffin
Guest
Din C. Nuffin

I still enjoy Boxing, but beyond intellectual rationales, I now find myself rooting for the Russian fighter against the American black. Wasn’t so just a few years back. Did I become racist on some subconscious level? Or have I just grown tired of all the black BS?

JohnMc
Guest
JohnMc

As much as I find Gabbard lacking in some respects her point that wars are not serving the interests of the country as a whole is spot on and has so since at least Grenada.

Dan
Guest
Dan

Tulsi Gabbard is openly, blatantly and completely anti Second Amdendent. Gun rights are a nearly perfect litmus test for a politician. If they will willingly violate your right of self defense then they will happily violate ALL of your rights….and ship you off to the camps in boxcars. She has no business being in Congress let alone the White House.

LineInTheSand
Guest
LineInTheSand

Being Civic Nationalist is worse than being anti-2A. The Civic Nationalist, who is pro 2A, will accept immigrants who will reject the 2A. To save the 2A, you must preserve a white society.

(I’m not saying that all whites are pro 2A. I’m saying, generally speaking, that only whites are pro 2A.)

Dan
Guest
Dan

Show me a pro 2A “open borders” nationalist. There may be a handful but certainly not many…and none of any significant influence I can think of.
Importing new Demonrat voters and disarming us seems to go hand in hand ideologically.

Member

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The political realignment that is happening is between those who see the United States as a sovereign nation containing Americans and tied basically to the rule of law and constitutional governance vs. those who see what used to be the United States as Transnational Region 6 of the Global Commerce Guild run out of Brussels which contains remnants of the old world which must be destroyed or ethnically cleansed out of existence. It’s why Sanders and Trump really aren’t all that far apart in terms of their policies, only their rhetoric… Read more »

Herman Snerd
Member

@Zman: She’s not the only politically ambitious late 30’s person in the US, with credentials but for Hinduism that, were she male, would have many of your readers ohhhing and ahhing. Advanced OCS…multiple deployments…reluctance to wave the sword when it does this country more harm than good…. Six minutes ago I finished skimming her biography on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsi_Gabbard After a few more terms in the US House, and maybe a governorship under her belt, she might be qualified to run for President. She’s not the first nor the last ambitious galoot to look in the mirror and say, Yassss, looking… Read more »

Wolf Barney
Guest
Wolf Barney

Z man can speak for himself, but I’m guessing the natural revulsion is just a gut feeling he has. As for myself, I think Gabbard’s very likable, and would be a threat to Trump if she won the nomination. But she won’t. Too many differences with the DNC.

Quicksilver75
Guest
Quicksilver75

She certainly won’t win the nomination. The Debbie Wasserman-Schultz – Jerrold Nadler wing of the DNC will get her smeared as unreliable on fighting wars for Israel. TBF to the Alt Right, ZMan should revise this-
“They see her anti-war rhetoric as a sanitized version of their own opposition to Israel.”, to
“…their own opposition to the influence of AIPAC, the Neocons, and the Likud Party’s US lobbyists”
Most folks are fine with Israel, they just want its manipulation of its “allies” to be scaled Way Back.

Primi Pilus
Guest
Primi Pilus

Somewhat of a grab-bag response to the comments, given my re-reading them at 0330 when up with a fussy child: 2nd Amdt comments above — Am currently temporarily residing in a rural and remote county in Southern Virginia. Sold home in rapidly bluing western state and left last fall after 40 yrs. Something is going on here different from what I’ve seen in my decades in the west, and in urban areas across this country, relative to the 2a, traditional behaviors, and black culture. This place is old tobacco lands, now heavily forested with a few small towns. People are… Read more »

Cornelius
Guest
Cornelius

I listened to the recent FTN and McFeels threw some cold water on any seemingly alt-right support of Warren or Gabbard. They are anti-war in a sense but their real goal is merely to assist in the rebranding of US Imperialism and Military machine as humanitarian rather than combative. They’d rather it be used sort of like a global UN peacekeeping force; assisting global mass migration. Of course to do all of this would require combat to “keep the peace” and “protect human rights.” Same machine with new branding, Mission Statement, Code of Conduct.

O Gangster
Guest
O Gangster

But way back when, Civic nationalism was a form of Tribalism. It seems you argue Civic Nationalism is a dead end phenomenon. What will you say when they succeed in destroying the idea of Tribalism?

Calsdad
Guest
Calsdad

Does Sailor realize that his “citizenism” concept seems to be operating under an inherent premise that the government is pre-eminent? What happened to that whole “by the people for the people” thing? Seems to me that our current government is not really serving the needs of it’s “heritage” citizens – and therefore , under the originally agreed upon rules…… we are perfectly within our rights to tear the whole thing down. Making arguments that the government “should” respect the rights of existing citizens over new ones – flies in the face of what is going on lately. And seems like… Read more »

Joshinca
Guest
Joshinca

The left already took her out with a kill shot based on a tweet she made years ago that’s been cast as being anti-gay.

Christian Sweeny
Guest

Our former Democrat Congresswoman, Barbara Jordan, once said that American citizenship was a privilege, and not one of the universal rights of all humans. She strongly opposed illegal immigration as destructive of the civil rights of citizens, especially the Afro-American minority. American citizens are assimilated; they must swear allegiance to our form of government and our Constitution and Laws. For the legal benefits associated with citizenship, they also must shoulder certain responsibilities to actively defend this Nation against its enemies. Yes, the American Republic has enemies who hate what we stand for. How many wars of defense have we fought… Read more »