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Can a movie be art? It probably depends upon your definition of art. The general definition is “something created with imagination and skill that is beautiful or expresses important ideas.” There are a lot of subjective words there. What is beautiful to one person can be silly looking to another person. Important ideas are not always easy to define and often take a long time before they are seen as important.
Using this general definition, even allowing for variations of taste and perspective, movies can be art in the same way a pop song can be art. It is unlikely that anyone will be performing Madonna songs a century from now but lots of people thought the songs were beautiful at the time. Some people even say that she was a culturally important figure at her peak. But is Madonna in the same club as Beethoven?
Another way of looking at art is that it is something that holds a mirror up to the society that created it. Greek statues speak to the nature of the people who created them in ways that their graffiti and pornography does not. The Greeks had graffiti and crude art produced for the masses, just like this age. They had pornography too, but what stood the test of time was their sculpture, literature, and architecture.
When you look at it this way, pop songs are not art because they do not speak to the nature of the society that produces them. The reason no one thinks about the pop songs of the 19th century, and they did have pop music, is the same reason no one will talk about Madonna songs in the 22nd century. This sort of crude entertainment has nothing important to say about the people who produced and consumed it.
That brings us back to movies. Most films are made for the same purpose most popular music is made, which is profit. You get a decent script and some famous actors, have it made by a competent director and profit! The only films made for reasons other than profit are the small projects by famous stars and directors. The studios let these guys do pet projects as a way to keep them happy.
This is probably why studios are fine with ruining their franchises by making unnecessary sequels and reboots. Star Wars is a punchline now, but it made billions for the studios, so it is all good. The Indians Jones franchise has ended with the thud, because the studio views it as a profit vehicle, not a work of art. You do not reboot Mozart or remake a Da Vinci painting. You can reboot a movie franchise.
This brings us to the classic Disney film, Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, which is number fifty on the AFI top-100. There is no need to summarize it or even offer a critique, as everything that can be said about this has been said. Not only is it the greatest animated film of all time, but it is also based on a German fairy tale by the Brothers Grimm, thus tying it to the soul of Western man.
Does this film have something important to say? Does it hold a mirror up to the society that produced it? Is it beautiful? The answer to the first question is no, but the second and third questions are not obvious. It does feel like a statement of some sort, but that is mostly because we view it from the perspective of this age. It reflects what we have come to view as a better, more decent age than our own. But is it art?
Probably the best argument for it being a work of art is the response to the news that Disney plans to vandalize this film. They wanted to reimagine it by making it diverse and vulgar, like everything else. Instead of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs it is going to be Nonwhite and the Seven Diverse Weirdos. People were not outraged or offended as it is too late for that now. Instead, everyone laughed.
Vandalizing Star Wars makes people angry because you are destroying a part of their childhood, but once those people are gone, the film, the remakes and the outrage around those remakes are forgotten. When someone says they want to improve on Beethoven or paint a better version of the Mona Lisa, you laugh because you know the person doing it is an idiot and he and his work will soon be forgotten.
In other words, a work of art cannot be remade, rebooted, or even vandalized, as it has deep roots in our cultural consciousness. The Hanging Gardens of Babylon are still with us, even though they are long gone, because they made such a deep impression on the people of that time that the memory of them has been preserved. Art not only stands the test of time, but it also transcends time and place.
The one issue with this line of reasoning is that unlike any other form of art, film has to be seen to be appreciated. We can appreciate the Colossus of Rhodes from descriptions and drawings. We know it existed and we can imagine what it was like seeing it at the time. You cannot do that with a film. Once Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs is gone, all we have left is the fairytale on which it is based.
That is the reason to watch this film. Given the age in which we live, it could soon be condemned for heresy. They removed Song of the South and now hardly anyone remembers it existed. If you want to see it, you have to watch it on a weird website or download it from the Chinese. Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs is a great film, but it is also a reminder that we have to fight to keep our art.
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Being a not-gay person, I generally don’t like musicals but I Feel like the original West Side Story and the Music Man are Works of Art.
Technology killed art.
Art has always had a number of functions – among them decoration, beauty, representing reality and most importantly triggering the imagination of the observer such at each person could cast their own interpretation of the depiction.
Mechanistic- chemical photography eliminated the need for art to represent reality. And moving pictures and video have destroyed the imaginative aspect of art via superior presentation and desensitizing the observing public.
Which is why all modern art is abstract – to the point of functioning as Rorschach totems.
Partly off-topic. I never understood why white liberals and white elite hate ordinary whites. Not talking about other tribes. All elites have always had contempt for ordinary people but not hate. What is different in America?
Uh… jews?
We have an (((elite))) that have never participated in the building of the country — only its destruction. Why would they like us?
When you look at it this way, pop songs are not art because they do not speak to the nature of the society that produces them.
I dunno about dat.
Material Girl said a lot about 80’s America.
“Vandalizing Star Wars makes people angry because you are destroying a part of their childhood, but once those people are gone, the film, the remakes and the outrage around those remakes are forgotten.”
Star Wars is #15 on the AFI Top 100…🤫
Frankly, that ranking is ridiculous. Loved it as a 10-year-old. I see it now and it leaves me slightly cold. Ultimately, it’s a good and rather imaginative kids’ movie with great special effects, nothing more.
I think you understate it’s influence on cinema, and the economy around movies. It reminds of something someone noted about The Matrix: There were action movies made before The Matrix, and action movies made after The Matrix.
Ukraine is hosting one of the great epics of this century
❝We are Harry Potter and William Wallace, the Na’vi and Han Solo. We’re escaping from Shawshank and blowing up the Death Star. We are fighting with the Harkonnens and challenging Thanos.❞
In light of that, I’m a little surprised Star Wars didn’t make #1
The Worthy House and Charles Haywood make the big time !!
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/22/charles-haywood-claremont-institute-sacr-far-right
I was disappointed to find that palingenetics doesn’t mean big hooters.
First they came for the memes tweeters
Then they came for the J6 grannies
Then they came for Claremont
Then they came for Book Reviews..
…then they came for Rod Dreher… and we just laughed.
Z will be safe. He’s Tarzan surrounded by his Baltimore bodyguard of 🦍.
They shall not venture there…
I like “NoWhite and the Seven Pervs”
The most innovative contemporary art is the weird avant-garde poetry our hateful rulers use to describe us:
“basket of deplorables”
“listless vessels”
etc.
Decades of dada from Tzara to Ashbery never assembled such awkward nonsense.
I have a feeling that most of the “art” from this era will be forgotten quickly. In fact, much of it is already (thankfully) forgotten. Art is supposed to be beautiful and aspirational. Now so much of it is suicidal. So much of it is easily mistaken for rubbish. It’s all over the art. Whether it is buildings, music, modern art, movies or works of fiction, much of it is ugly and not uplifting in any way. There is a ton of modern art which required the technique and skill of a 6 year old to produce with such masterpieces… Read more »
There is a cool documentary about Jackson Pollack where someone gets a splatter paint canvas from a garage sale and she ends up in the high art world seeing if it is real or fake. The pretentions and stupidity of the modern parenthesis led art world are on full display. Speaking of amazing art, I got my niece and nephew a book on Rome. It was geared toward young people. However, the paintings are lined with color prints of rennaissance, baroque and romantic era masterpieces depicting Roman life. It made my happy that the youngsters have something coming into their… Read more »
“The pretentions and stupidity of the modern parenthesis led art world are on full display.”
“Modern art” is just a money-laundering scheme.
Art, like everything else from the elites, is designed to demoralize and abuse you psychologically. Once people who hate you gained control of the culture, they turned the culture into a weapon aimed at you. That’s it, it is just that simple. Architecture is the same way – look at the type of lunatic buildings and their designers that have been celebrated over the past 40 years or so. Look at the Nancy Pelosi Federal Building in San Francisco, nobody can walk by that thing, look at it, and feel pleasant or optimistic. And sure enough it is surrounded by… Read more »
So perfectly named then.
Wow. That Pelosi building is a monstrosity. The first featured photo I found of it had additional photos showing the hobos and junkies. I wonder if this has made the coveted eyesore of the month list over on Kunstler’s website. I don’t recall ever seeing it there. If not, we gotta nominate it.
Oof, looks like a half-blown up warehouse.
From the late 80s on to today, I’ve noticed that the decline of its popular music precedes the decline of the rest of society. Some, albeit not a tremendous amount, of musical literacy is required to make this assessment. This wasn’t apparent in the late 80s/early 90s. All that was apparent then was that popular music was declining. Which it has continued to do ever since. With the more obvious decline of AINO following in its wake, which today virtually everyone can see. The music was the canary in the coal mine. An early indicator that the creative force of… Read more »
beating on hollow logs and hooting is neither melodic or lyrical.
“This sort of crude entertainment has nothing important to say about the people who produced and consumed it.” That’s interesting. I think the crude popular music is a reflection of our cultural degeneracy and decay. While it is certainly not important in the long term sense because it probably won’t stand the test of time, I think it does say something about us right now. For all the Boomer posting about their music and how it was the best ever, there is no denying Boomer music is just way, way better than anything on the radio today. Even the aesthetic… Read more »
This is not the original topic, but I’m wondering if any of you guys remember the idea of an “edge city”? I used to think it was the cool new idea but I’m increasingly of the view that it’s a scam/ponzi scheme.
Like has anyone ever been to Irvine, ca? I think that’s supposed to be a typical example of an edge city.
When I think of edge city I think of The Woodlands, TX. Palm Beach County FL would probably be another.
White flight made both of those places what they are. I’m not sure Irvine is in the same category.
As Ol’ Remus said, great art is a snapshot, a picture of a a place and time (that is no more).
I remember after some negro paroxysm–the Passion of Floyd? Trayvon Martin verdict?–Darius Rucker did a live performance of “White Christmas.” The Left, univocally, flew into a rage. The word white itself, even when not referencing Blue-eyed Ice Devils, when connoted positively, was anathamatized. Could there be much clearer evidence that anti-white racism is what most motivates the Left?
The Via Floydarosa, and its stations of the Can’t Breef
Tars Tarkas: “He basically catches drips and rubs his brush on it to remove excess paint. From the picture, you couldn’t tell it was an apron because it was zoomed into a couple of square inches. The students made comments about it being powerful and bold and the like.”
Was he zooming in on his own pen!$?
Ostei Kozelskii: Darius Rucker did a live performance of “White Christmas.” The irony there is that (((Israel Beilin))) wrote “White Christmas” as part of a massive cultural-wide effort on the part of the Frankfurt School to secularize the birth of Christ and turn that date into just another excuse for purchasing worthless pieces of plastic junk from j00ish peddlers of pediatric garbage such as (((Mattel))) and (((Barbie))). Cf Beilin’s subsequent tune, “Easter Parade”, which began the effort to the secularize of the resurrection of Christ. Cf “Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer” by (((John David Marks))). [Apparently Peter Cottontail, as the Easter… Read more »
began the effort to secularize the resurrection of Christ
“I’ll Be Home for Christmas” and “Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas” were secular Christmas songs written about the same time as “White Christmas,” and the lyricists were white, not Jewish. I hardly think “White Christmas” was a sinister Jewish plot against Christmas.
Ironic, as White Christmas was originally composed by the benosed to disassociate Christmas from its religious ties.
Perhaps one cannot “reboot” Mozart, but one can remake his operas with a cast of Hutus and in such a way as to push the DIE agenda. And in fact, this sort of thing happens all the time. The people who do this, of course, are uninterested in art except for destroying it. Be that as it may, art can be debased just as easily as pop culture. The crime, however, is far worse.
Ostei, perhaps you can correct, but I have heard of pressure to eliminate “blind auditions” for classical orchestra hiring cross the country in order to let Hutus participate. DIE of course being the greatest achievement possible in any endeavor.
That’s exactly right. The people at the NY Times, among other institutions, have been pushing this, although I’m not sure if the NY Phil has yet adopted the deranged policy. If not, it can only be a matter of time. One thing that has swept the length of breadth of the classical music world, however, is the mandates for DIE in performance and programming. What this means is that mediocre negro musicians and black compositional hacks are popping up in concerts across the land. (The totally forgettable negress Florence Price is now treated like Mozart.) My local orchestra, which I’ve… Read more »
The NY Philharmonic was never worth a damn [except for a very precious few short years when James Chambers was playing on a Reynolds horn of his own design].
And the NY Philharmonic will never be worth a damn.
Cerminaro “inherited” many of Chambers’s horns, and he might have one or more of Chambers’s Reynolds horns in his possession.
Sadly, Cerminaro now chooses to play on a Schmid, which is an hideous doleful abject abomination of a miscreancy.
The world will not be Right again until all Schmid horns have been cast into active volcanoes and subsumed back down into Hell, where they belong.
Someone recently sent me a story where they eliminated blind auditions for an orchestra in Alabama. Cancer has metasticized
The ultimate end game here is to destroy classical music performance. If performance is sufficiently degraded through affirmative action, nobody will pay money to attend. And another pillar of white civilization will be reduced to rubble. That which the savages cannot equal, they perforce destroy to hide the evidence of their inferiority.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOsWUA7cK50
cute kids here
They found out a while ago that blind auditions didn’t provide the requisite quota of Nubians, so they’re back to checking skin color.
I kind of liked a Fifth of Beethoven. Reboot? Tribute? OK, it’s not the 5th Symphony, but it’s an entertaining 3.5 minutes or whatever it is.
Abduction from the El Dorado…
But does art stand the test of time because it holds a mirror up to the society in which it was created or because it conveys incredible beauty or timeless ideas that, some would say, are universal? In the case of Greek statuary and architecture, I would argue that its classical beauty is why it is revered now just as much as it was when it was created.
I would argue that the very act of these expressions of beauty and timeless ideas, which are themselves expressive of eternal verities, is in fact a mirror held up to the potentials of the society and the people from whom these flow. They are inextricably linked.
Readers of the Z-Blog will recall an old theory/prophecy that went as follows: A hundred monkeys pecking away at random on a hundred typewriters will eventually reproduce the complete works of William Shakespeare. The terms may be a little dated, what with the typewriters, and that modest round number, meant to suggest something like “many,” or even “infinite.” And one monkey, of course, would suffice, given enough time and an immortal monkey. In any case, the chance duplication would require the monkeys—let us say a brigade of monkeys—to peck out 38 excellent plays and some 160 poems of one metrical… Read more »
Just to randomly get two identical shuffles of a deck of 52 cards, it would take many, many, many times longer than the universe has been theorized to exist. Puts the Shakespeare/monkey thing in perspective.
I appreciate the old saying for what it’s worth and attempts to convey, but the reality is that the probability is so small of such an occurrence, that most likely the universe will *end* before such a feat can be accomplished. Assuming of course, our current understanding of the cosmos remains “true”.
The hundred to the Nth power monkeys have gotten pretty good at searching, willlowing out, Shakespeare et al, though. For example Googling ‘the quality of mercy is not strained’ produces 1,840,000 results in 0.53 seconds sorted in order of relevance.
“This is a thousand monkeys working at a thousand typewriters. Soon they’ll have written the greatest novel known to man. Lets see. It was the best of times, it was the “blurst” of times?!?! You stupid monkey!”
Charles Montgomery Burns, The Simpsons, episode “Last Exit to Springfield”
Now we have AI, which pretends to add to human knowledge by scanning the internet to collect and organize what the monkeys produce.
Yes, I’ve been thinking about this. My knowledge here is limited, but the concept is fascinating as I hear of applied uses. Can you take an unskilled laborer and make him as competent as a typical garage grease monkey using AI? So far I’m getting the impression that “you can lead a horse to water, but can’t make him drink”.
It might be that the end effect is to make the good even more competent—and certainly efficient, while leaving the mediocre behind.
It’s the second part of that saying which truly applies to AI “You can fill a man with knowledge, but can’t make him think.”
“A just machine to make big decisions.
Programmed by fellows with compassion and vision.”
A concept of the future by a young boy in 1958, as related in the song “I.G.Y.” by Donald Fagen.
Instead of that we’re going to get AI-generated poz, programmed by wogs and Jews.
what’s really funny is I used image maker ap and combined the facials of putin, trump, vivek, sharpton and Xi, and the resultant morphed face is exactly as foolish and stupid as you might expect it to be..
The entire works of Shakespeare are also encoded in ascii in the digits of pi or the square root of 2, but good luck finding it.
It’s worse, those typing away are not doing so at random (theoretically). And yet the Bard still wins.
Yes, if the typing is non-random and biased against it, then works of the bard will never get typed.
For example, if the monkey had a habit of striking 5 keys on the left side followed by 5 keys on the right side, then repeating infinitely, many words/phrases cannot be typed with that pattern of behavior.
“To Be or Not to Be”
We throw around the term art and artist as well as great and genius without regard to the standard and standard bearers who are the towering pillars that speak across time. The reality is, what is being made since the 60s and who has been making it is the unraveling of standards and the shambles of the plebian phase of civilization’s unraveling. That isn’t to say that some art wasn’t made and that there weren’t a few legitimate artists, but one is hard to pressed to find it and them. The institutions that carried forward the highest standards were corrupted… Read more »
Since I have an empiricist temperament, I tend to be skeptical of transcendent ideas like objective beauty or objective quality in art. However, that same temperament makes me notice your report that “China is building entire research centers that are replicas of European masterworks. They are also pumping in classical music.”
That asians admire western art suggests the existence of an objective standard that transcends particular societies and individual preferences.
This is true. As I’ve mentioned before, at the College of Music and Arts at my old university, we have a surfeit of Asians—and it’s noticeable. That tells me that their families and nations appreciate the Western arts, especially classical music.
The Conservatory I attended had the piano department filled with young women from Korea, Japan and Taiwan. It was effectively a finishing school for many of them. The level was extremely high. Many of them do not make it as a solo career in classical music is practically impossible. They go there and do there best but will go home and raise a family. They will be music teachers and pass on the skills, knowledge and appreciation of our once towering musical culture to their children. They see great music and skill as a part of forming a full and… Read more »
I hope you are right. You sound very Randian and could be quoting from Atlas Shrugged—published over sixty years ago. People scoffed then—bet they’re not scoffing today (if alive).
I would say it suggests that East Asians, in the main, are intelligent and refined enough to fully appreciate the glories of white civilization. The same can hardly be said, generically, for negroes, Arabs, Hispanics and Amerindians.
It sounds like the Chinese in your description will be eschewing pretty much everything post 1900 with the possible exception of the Art Deco movement. We should do the same. High art began its hibernation with the late Impressionists. Art Nouveau, while beautiful and often celebrating classic western beauty and themes, rarely reaches the definition of high art.. Too mass produced and completely intertwined with the advent of art/commercial product placement. Dada, modern and post modern art became the avenue for the hacks, the untalented and the morally bankrupt to put on the laurels of “artist”. Even the height of… Read more »
My apologies. I walked away in the middle of that to make coffee and didn’t think to use brevity when I came back. Posted and then saw how long-winded that was. Mea culpa.
In theory film should be the highest art. It should be opera but with moving images and special effects you can’t do on a stage. I think the apex of film making are the story based films. I think Visconti’s “Il Gattopardo”, (The Leopard), is a high point both with the story, (highly relevant to this topic), the music and the aesthetics. I think some modern TV series came close. The first four seasons of “The Last Kingdom”, was great until they vandalized it with, “diversity.” I turned it off when the 9th century black monk was introduced. I am… Read more »
Art isn’t to be analyzed but experienced.
But why has so little art — or even minimally competent gestures in the direction of art — been produced by rich societies full of educated people with plenty of material and free time?
Because those societies are materially rich but spiritually and morally bankrupt. Also, they are set up to churn out highly technical workers and build businesses. That edifice is set up not to make art or beauty, but to make product and make the green line keeping going up and to the right.
The financier and merchant’s dream is a nightmare.
The argument has been made that a certain amount of hardship and suffering is necessary to produce a large quantity of art. How does one write the great Russian novel when everything goes so well in America? Went in America. We may producing lots of great art in AINO here directly…
“…the same reason no one will talk about Madonna songs in the 22nd century. This sort of crude entertainment has nothing important to say about the people who produced and consumed it.”
Or perhaps it says that the people who produced and consumed it were not important enough to remember.
Point made, but perhaps with too broad a brush. Since you’ve picked Madonna to hang your music point on, I’ll use her as well. Your claim that Madonna songs are purely “pop” with little to no underlying meaning and hence societal value, let me reference one of her early hit songs, “Papa Don’t Preach!” Here’s a verse underlying the song’s point/meaning: “Papa don’t preach I’m in trouble deep Papa don’t preach, I’ve been losing sleep But I made up my mind, I’m keeping my baby, hm I’m gonna keep my baby, hm” This song became popular in the midst of… Read more »
Somehow the above posting is under Reziac. Really was to Z-man.
Those lyrics are wretched. They make Hallmark cards sound like The Bard’s prototype. Don’t lecture me daddy. I got knocked up and I am going to have this illegitimate child. Eh…. Not so much. One thing that has high artistry is Chris Cornell’s cover of Billie Jean. He nailed that song. If there is a pop song about an illegitimate child and a deep soul who understood the text that would be it. What a difference between a crotch grabbing skeleton under a grease mop singing that song with massive affectation and weird turrets noises coming out and the master… Read more »
The language sung is the language of the people at that time. Shakespearean poetic it is not, but that was not the claim. The claim was that it was not meaningless. It has a very topical point for the time. Who writes in Old English these days? Even Beowulf is most often read today in modern language translation. It loses none of its import as such.
It wasn’t the language, it was the quality of the poetry and the quality of the idea it was expressing – which is abysmal.
Compsci – I’m imaging the Papa Don’t Preach lyrics sung by Hal whilst being deprogrammed in 2001 Space Odyssey movie vs Bicycle Built for Two – doesn’t work nearly as well.
I used to like her early stuff, “Borderline”.
But once she got off with that “Papa Don’t Preach” phase, I tuned out.
I wonder if they will ever improve ‘Fiddler on the Roof’ and make it more multicultural?
Top comment of the day!!!!
Hummm. Actually, I thought it was somewhat “multicultural”—at least in the West. Who (non-Jew) the hell would watch a story about a bunch of Hasidic Jews in Russia if there were not themes/values which struck a cord in their own lives? People in poverty making due, families with problems with their children’s “choices” in future life direction, rapprochement between estranged family members, etc.
Ah, but the Fiddler casting is always so offensively pale. Funny, it’s pale in all Anne Frank movies too.
Meanwhile, goyish figures like Ann Boleyn and Hamilton are now played by Africans.
I wonder why that is…
I’ve been saying for a while that someone needs to do turnabout is fair play. Do a series of Israeli Kings David and Solomon with an entire cast played by Hutus. Kanye West as David and … hmmm…. Ice T as Solomon. Solomon wearing a Kangol and gold chains and being a gold plated gangsta in a jacuzzi in a climactic scene would be hot! We also need an Oppenheimer or Einstein film where his black assistants pen the theories and have the key insights that were essential. I would love to see the hand wringing and kvetching that would… Read more »
Mendelssohn was actually a negro, you know. Original name was Ja’Tav’ious, but his parents changed it to Felix to lessen the likelihood of discrimination…
Can you imagine the screaming, hair pulling, and gnashing of teeth if there was a movie giving a black secretary the credit for Oppenheimer and Einsteins inventions!
Good stuff Ostei. NateG. I want somebody to do these sorts of things so we don’t have to imagine it.
Good for the Goose. Good For the Gander.
I gat a small kick out of the idea of a black Adolf Hitler.
It is simultaneously funny and sad to see what is going on around pop culture today. The entertainment industry of the USA completely ran out of ideas (both good and bad) somewhere in the mid-2000s, and turned to cannibalism. Disney’s entire operating model for the past decade has been to make stuff it already made, when it was a far better company, and then to buy another company and remake their stuff. It worked for a while because the dominant consumers were happy to spend new money to consume old stuff again, but that well is running dry and there… Read more »
I’ve never thought much of the Beatles’ music was timeless or enduring. It always sounded dated to me. I’m sure it was a big deal at the time, which was a little before my time. I guess you had to be there. I give more credit to Leo Fender, Orville Gibson, and the Ludwig brothers than I do to the quartet from Liverpool. I figure after what the former did, the latter was inevitable.
Eleanor Rigby qualifies as an art song. Possibly Hey Jude, too. That may be just about it for the Beatles. And I like the Beatles quite a lot.
I don’t think I ever saw the Snow White movie. What I do remember from my childhood is Andrew (((Dice))) Clay having a different, lurid take on it. My age group never had innocence. Not from day one.
The progressives have you on this one. They will tell you that ruling class taste forms the canon of artistic worth from age to age. Many technicians can explain why the Mona Lisa is great art. Critics can rhapsodize about the subtlety and nuance that enrapture their souls. Trouble is they’re after the fact when what they behold has already been deemed great art. It’s said that the English never saw a sunset ’til Turner painted them. And today’s mystique’s burning question: is Mona Lisa trans? If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears the Brothers Grim… Read more »
Spotify, or something like it, suggests the possibility that music which wasn’t appreciated much in its time, would have been forgotten and long out of print, will be preserved digitally until one day centuries hence it becomes a hit.
or remake a Da Vinci painting.
Oh, yeah?
https duckduckgo dot com/?q=last+supper+parodies&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images
Not all art is transcendent, and even the art that stands the test of time is only possible if the succeeding society is still of sufficient quality to appreciate it. For example, very few within our current Western society is actively appreciative of classical music, fine art, great architecture, or eternal literature. IOW, there are no museums in Africa for a reason. And that is the real story that must be told. Our species is in decline. The best cohorts of us are dwindling at an accelerating rate, both through dilution and evaporating fecundity. Natural selection is dead and has… Read more »
Too true, TomA.
To advance a seemingly trite example, think of the use of classical music in a number of the Bugs Bunny cartoons. Without the wider acquaintance in the culture with this repertoire, they would never have been made as they were. Then move on to the collaboration of Stokowski and the Disney studios to generate Fantasia, the theme music of the TV show, Sergeant Preston of the Yukon, being Reznicek’s Overture to Donna Diana, or the theme music for The Lone Ranger being a section of Rossini’s William Tell Overture. More examples could be adduced.
John Williams cadged the “shark attack” theme for Jaws from Stravinsky’s Rite of Spring. His “Princess Leia’s Theme” comes from Reinhold Gliere’s Symphony No. 2. Not exactly what you’re talking about, but similar.
Natural selection never stops, it just doesn’t always go in the direction you want it to. Right now the fittest specimens of humanity are moronic negroes waddling around in an environment that feeds, takes care of, and worships them. Of course while a chicken may be the fittest specimen of avian evolution on a chicken farm, as soon as the chicken farmer is gone hawks and eagles flip them the bird and once again rule the roost. Become cock of the walk. Ruffle some feathers. Make them eat crow. Establish a new pecking order. Why are there so many bird… Read more »
A bird in hand is better than two in the bush.
The early bird gets the worm.
Birds of a feather flock together.
This is for the birds!
You’re right, there’s a whole brace of avian idioms.
Art requires two things, from my definition. First, it must hold a mirror up to general human nature – even if that mirror is distorted a la a house of mirrors. This would be the timeless/ universal aspect. Two, experiencing art must be a passive one. The audience must first submit to the author’s perspective (e.g. watching a film silently, looking at a picture, reading a book), and then they can respond. Media such as video games cannot be art, for their entire schtick is making action that empowers the player instead of forcing them to submit to the author’s… Read more »
The reason no one thinks about the pop songs of the 19th century A lot of 19th century pop songs simply made it into the general cultural vocabulary and we still know them today Oh, Susanna I’ve Been Working On the Railroad Battle Hymn of the Republic Dixie Those were all popular 19th century songs. Not to mention the Star Spangled Banner itself. There’s an enormous body of Christian song from the 19th century, many of which my church sings at worship on Sundays. They were popular tunes of that time. Yankee Doodle is 18th century and the tune is… Read more »
One thing about movie making that few people know about is that it’s a perfect vehicle for money laundering. All kinds of bills flow through, from craft service to “design consultancy.” One of the best ways to move money into the system is to have a complex invoicing system for expensive artistic trades. What does a wig cost anyway? So if a movie “loses money,” sure, but it may have done its job in other ways. You would never see this with real art. The first rule of defining art is that it was intended to be so from inception,… Read more »
Please elaborate on the money laundering angle. In common vernacular, the phase “money laundering” refers to clearing cash money derived from illicit activity (e.g., drug sales) and so is usually done by cash businesses. Laundromats and car washes come to mind.
Movie studios are not cash businesses. How would a movie studio launder money? Also, the studio is paying out money, not taking it in.
The production companies not the studios. The ones with the bizarre names “Little green men productions.” Etc. Most movies are sh t that you’ve never heard of. Not Ironman 2.
Sorry, I still don’t understand how that launders dirty cash.
Asking for a friend.
I don’t take that strict of a definition. WRT movies, it involves the hiding of profit from the bottom line and that in effect reduces obligations to investors and Uncle Sam. The terminology may be wrong, but I get the intended description of the process/motivation.
Beauty in the eye of the beholder and all, the very definition of ‘beauty’ has been gang-raped and uglified by our miserably decadent, perverted insect overlords. You can very well bet that there are people out there who have managed to convince themselves that Piss Christ is ‘art’ and Titian’s The Penitent Magdalene is trash, that ookish Michelle Obama is ‘beautiful’ and Lovely Melania Trump is a homely tramp. I can’t help but notice the yawning chasm of difference between literally anything built in ancient Rome or Greece and what is slapped together today and passes for ‘architecture’. Did we… Read more »
Ugliness is being forced upon us.
Why else would Peleton have nothing but fat, ugly Sheboons in their advertising?
My wife and I laugh anytime we see it, and wonder if they think that’s the target market.
Ugly people–both physically and morally–want an ugly world because it makes them feel at home.
It is more punitive than palliative, though. As you convinced me, PoMo is rank nihilism. Feeling better about oneself is secondary to making others feel worse. Beauty is hated more because it gives others pleasure than due to any perceived sleight, which is certainly a thing although not the main one. Beauty has to be destroyed because it is beautiful.
It could cleave rather along racial lines, Jack. Negroes palliative, whites/Jews punitive.
Beauty in the eye of the beholder and all
Yes, it should be Different types of beauty or something like that. Ugly people do not get a say.
I can’t help but notice the yawning chasm of difference between literally anything built in ancient Rome or Greece and what is slapped together today and passes for ‘architecture’. Did we collectively lose our sense of beauty and refinement? I’ve posited before that economic efficiency is the “enemy” of beauty. If you need something turned out quickly it won’t have the fine details and flowing curves of a hand made Roman, Greek, or even Medieval castle or cathedral. Plus side, you get houses people can afford or buildings that can be put up rather quickly. Minus side you get things… Read more »
There’s another way in which wealth is the enemy of beauty. Hence, when the common man has plenty of disposable income, he is free to “vote” on what is beautiful, or if beauty even matters, with his dollars. And the common man, alas, rarely has a refined aesthetic sense. He is far more likely to appreciate Jay Z than Leos Janacek. And those who produce “culture” cater to the dollar wad, not the elite stratum.
PS–The ’62 Polara is my dream car!
I dunno Rembrandt managed to convey the timeless ugliness of the rich merchants who hired him to paint them.
I always wondered if the merchants were happy about how the paintings came out though.
I’m certain the merchants were satisfied. Beauty seems to change with the times as has been noted. The merchants probably wanted that look as it suited the perceived “dignity” of their societal status. Today, not so much.
Rembrandt’s merchants may have leaned toward homely, but chances are they had better taste than the Dutch peasants. And they, along with the upper bourgeoisie, were the only ones with the wherewithal to dictate beauty.
OK, you may be the first person who wanted a car from the shrunken 1962 Dodge/Plymouth line I’ve ever met. 😁
Then again, it wasn’t the 1961 Dodge with the “reverse” tailfins. 🤨
And the 1961 Plymouth? The less said, the better. 😲
But at least they were trying something new. 🤷♂️
I have a certain yen for the bizarre…
If part of the definition or criteria, if you will, is “reflection of society” then, sadly, much of modern art is art. It reflects a very poor, disturbed, frankly crappy society.
Beauty has well defined objective components (golden ratio and all that), thus ugly is being forced upon us. Sure, one man’s 10 may be another’s 8, but they both know a 2 when they see one.
Are movies art? Darn it Z, could you just post a political analysis and let us make snarky comments instead of getting all philosophical? Now we have to think. 😒 You ask “is it art?” and I could riff on Justice Potter Stewart and reply “I know it when I see it.” But that’s trite. Your central thesis seems to be capital A art has to have longevity and either express a timeless message or be a mirror on the culture that created it. OK, I shall give you that and agree that no modern sculptor could recreate Michelangelo’s David… Read more »
mmack
To respectfully add to your list of memorable scenes (from LOTR, a masterpiece of good vs evil, honor, loyalty, sacrifice), the scene where Arowin gives up her immortality to be with Aragon, “for just one lifetime”, always gets me.
I could probably do more, but I get what you mean.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Z5t17_D4s90&feature=share Here is a breakdown of the score of the scene in the opening of The Two Towers. The level of detail that went into the score is impressive. The theme originally revolves around the Dwarves fear of the Balrog gradually rising to the Quenya word Mettana! To the End. The battle with Gandalf and The Balrog invoke Lucifer’s fall from Heaven. I remember reading the books as a kid, then enjoying the films. That scene and the piece of music in particular always struck me. With the passage of time, and good natured slightly spergy fellows like the man… Read more »
“My brother, my Captain, my King”.
Another one that gets me every time.
“ You want something that entertains, but can make you think deeper.”
Seems you’ve defined “movie” art in one way—message, meaning. That could be done in written format as well. To me, another important form of movies is visual effect. As mentioned, LOTR’s has superiority in both, but other movies can be art with less emphasis on story. One comes to mind, “The Horseman”, with Omar Sharif. Set in Afghanistan the photography is like a travelogue. The story however is nothing little better than average.
That’s why I often rented foreign films, or watched a bit of tv with the sound off and music on.
On a tiny battery-powered tv, I sat at the Vince Lombardi rest area in Secaucus and watched Chinese soap opera.
Didn’t understand a word, but I understood *everything* in the story. It was a classic!
One of the less appreciated artistic movies IMHO is High Plains Drifter. The sin/punishment/redemption arc, with cowardliness and fear themes is brilliantly done.
Disgusting garbage like Duchamp’s Fountain or Malevich’s Black Square are still remembered over a century later. Is that art?
I know it is not, but art experts claim that not only it is art, but it’s also revolutionary and even better than what was before.
Hun
Your comment prompted me to look up the “Fountain” by Duchamp.
I laughed out loud when it popped on my screen. That kind of shit is the submission of an individual with no talent or creativity.
The fact that “experts” consider it important, tells you all you need to know about that tripe.
I’m pretty sure the commentators on this site have put an end to the credibility of “experts”.
You have to look at the CIA programs to astroturf the so called “modern art” from the 40s. They can force unnatural things on us as long as they are active and have control over money that is what gives them free energy to manufacture consent. When the empire decays all the fake stuff will perish with it as this crip is not going to hold long term. But it helps to notice the fakery in the present as it weakens its hold on your spirit. One thing to notice is how our matrix (speaking as a Gen X here)… Read more »
>CIA programs to astroturf the so called “modern art” from the 40s.
This is important. For a laugh, consider the above in relation to Wolfe’s hilarious (and short) book The Painted Word.
“ I have visited the MOMA in NYC several times unironically LOL”
Don’t use this to prevent a visit if in NYC. Museums are a mixture of the good and profane these days. You’ll never see the difference if you don’t go. You can bypass the trendy and profane and take a seat in front of “Washington Crossing the Delaware”. Breathtaking and thought inducing.
There is a definite transition from “re-imagining” art, i.e., politicizing it, to outright destruction. Confederate iconography often was great art and makes for a good example. The vandalism has transitioned from removal and placement in museums with “contextualization” (Nathan Bedford Forrest, Tennessee) to blatant destruction (Robert E. Lee, Virginia). To usher in Year Zero all art from the before times has to be destroyed. So, to answer your question about film: yes. What has been done to SONG OF THE SOUTH is Exhibit A. It originally was “contextualized” but, as you point out, has been destroyed outside of a few… Read more »
Just looked for a Song of the South DVD on eBay. None exist. Did the same for Birth of a Nation–approximately 110 copies available. Odd that SotS has been culturally cleansed but BoaN has not.
On pop v. film:
Sinatra gave the American music business the idea that selling music *just happens* once you’ve sold the image of the celebrity. He was a great musician, but that’s not why the girls were screaming and peeing themselves, and music’s not what they were paying for when they bought his records. There had been pop-star hysterias (“Lisztomania”) before, but there was no “mass man” (teenage girls) to fleece. Since Ol’ Blue Eyes hit the newsreels, successful pop musicians have been visual artists—or visual art. Music is some of the sound that accompanies them.
Sinatra: couldn’t act; couldn’t sing, looked like a rat.
Never really saw the point to the man.
video killed the radio star
Stanley Kubrick made some good films that you just watch and enjoy the visuals
“The Shining” is my all-time favorite film. I’ve probably seen it hundreds of times, and it wasn’t until a few years ago that I noticed how the camera follows Jack’s axe as he hacks away at the bathroom door.
Kubrick was on another level of humanity.
David McLean is perhaps the best in this effort. One watches his movies especially for the visuals.
Some truly great popular culture can become art – I mean, Shakespeare and Rossini and Wagner were creating what was in their time popular culture, but because it was such great popular culture, it transcended its genre and became art. Will some of our popular culture, er, transition like this? Probably not, but you never know. In particular, the popular music of the 1920-1960 period produced some exceptional songs.
I persist at the piano, and despite never consciously making a choice about it, it turns out most of the songs I want to play are from that era
You know I watched that when I saw your review earlier and it’s amazing, it’s definitely art, also terrifying. I mean, that was a children’s movie and the evil queens goal was to bury Snow White alive and then of course the evil queen is killed by a giant boulder that rolls on her after she falls off a cliff. I watched that and thought l, the children of the past age were more mature than the adults today.
Whitney: The original translations of the stories of the Brothers Grimm were quite dark. My father bought a copy of such when I was a tween, and I remember being shocked. How ironic that even our older and sanitized versions are verboten today. These tales were meant to instill folk wisdom in children, as well as both entertain and frighten.
I think I’m better off for the dark aspect that I was exposed to as a child (who knew). Today’s children are waay too coddled/protected. I think that has crossed a line a couple generations ago and produces weaker personalities.
Dang. Those stories were what we’d call horror movies, today. ‘Dark’ doesn’t do justice. Shocking, really. But, I was young, and I had a Grimm’s book with fabulous art. I didn’t realize how fabulous. Riding the bus, a lithographer, stunned, asked if he could look at what I was reading. He pronounced the illustrations as magnificent, and asked if I could possibly give it to him. Young, uncertain, and foolish. Of course it was quickly lost, with all else, soon after. How, how I wish I could return, to give an unnoticed treasure to someone who knew and appreciated its… Read more »
The best art possesses a timelessness that today’s trash lacks. All this zealotry on behalf of die-versity is flavor-of-the-month pap, a soulless modernism (or post-modernism) doomed to annihilate itself at some point, preferably sooner than later. That which is truly valuable will long outlast these current nihilistic fads.
If you think about for just a moment, they are not remaking “Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs”. They are making a movie with a mystery meat female that is not white as snow, no dwarfs, and a major theme of the movie (the power of love, and its first kiss), is traded for Boss girl. None of those things (a Snow White female, dwarfs, loves first kiss), are in the movie, hence, it’s not really a remake. It’s a joke that they are part of. Honest to God, those people have the self awareness of a dog that licks… Read more »
They cannot be creative, only destructive
Whitney: That’s Satan’s modus operandi.
I recently purchased some White Cloud Mountain minnows and needed names. Riffing off the seven dwarves I came up with Greedy, Moody, Sexy, Silly, Shi**y and Esquire [there were only six minnows].
That’s all I have to say about a Snow White remake.
A classic, a true Classic!
One for the ages!
And one who’s popularity will certainly outlast the Joke.
Let us all, thereby, name our minnows!
I’d rather watch a big nasty bulldawg slobber up his nads than watch this remake.
I’ve not been able to buy a male dog of any breed since our small son found a male cast off, brought him home, and the wife saw him licking his privates—which it seemed was his most favorite repast. She’d never been exposed to a male dog and vowed never to be again. 😉
The natural world ain’t all peaches n’ cream!
Based on my family’s reactions to these great classics, I’d say that Snow White and Dumbo are equally great, and not far behind are Peter Pan, Lady and the Tramp, etc…We shall not see their like again in our lifetime, and maybe not ever…But if civilization survives, the great works of Disney will be revived and watched by children in centuries to come….
The artistry involved in the hand drawings of the classic Disney films cannot even be approached by computer- generated images.
Don’t forget Pinnochio!
“Frozen” was a worthy addition to the Disney canon – and I hate Disney.
Jungle Book with songs from Louis Prima and Phil Harris!
Bambi would bring a tear to the eye of Attila the Hun.
My kids loved Dumbo. the VHS tape got played so often I could recite a lot of it in my sleep. The crows were hilarious. They were really the heroes of the film, but morons have chosen to be offended by them for stupid reasons.
Every time I see the crows swoop down on some chicken scraps I tossed on the compost pile I think of that movie.
Reusing my Green Door comment:
The one quibble is that I’d found Sleeping Beauty superior to Snow White, though both are very good. Also the discussion reminds me of the video games as art discussion where it is pointed out that while art is in video games, it’s debatable if they are true art taken as a whole. The experience, even more so than film, is just too transient and technology based.
Bambi was the greatest box office hit, and sold more tickets than Gone With the Wind…I think for young children, animals have a universal appeal that transcends culture….
Uh, a few grown ups as well…😏
The older I get, the more I realize how much I love my Gila monster…
pyrrhus: I still remember crying in the theater when Bambi’s mother died. While I didn’t appreciate the artistry as a child, I can appreciate it now every day, as the does and fawns and young bucks come to eat the food I put out. The movements and mannerisms of the deer were rendered in amazing accuracy.
The Metal Gear Solid series is art, at least the first 4, haven’t played the rest. The 2nd installment is especially challenging. Final Fantasy VI, too. Steampunk aesthetic + fantasy/magic + Bach-inspired soundtrack was a powerful combination. FFVII was beautiful and revolutionary, but I’m not sure it has the depth. Xenogears is an unfinished masterpiece. Real shame they apparently ran over time and budget, and had to rush the second disc. Could’ve been the GOAT, probably still is in terms of story, imo— if you have the stomach for Gnostic themes. Chrono Trigger gets a lot of deserved hype, but… Read more »
As far as Metal Gear they’re soon to release a remade Snake Eater which I thought was the best of the series. Not gonna lie, the ending of FFX made me teary eyed, but how do I sell someone on the experience. It’s one thing to make someone sit through a two hour movie, quite another to get someone to sink 60-ish hours into a game. The length though is what gives it an emotional investment (i.e., if you just sat down and watched the cutscenes it wouldn’t have anywhere near the same impact, in any). I guess the game… Read more »
Hard to pick a favorite MGS, they’re all so good. Each has something the others don’t. Kind of neat how some video games can be as occupying as a novel and still be as seductive as a movie. It’s a killer medium.
The Xenosaga trilogy is pretty brilliant too. My favorite “games as art” argument is and always will be Killer7. A game about the nature of political power, the grand chess board, the way nations and great powers think, and how democracy is a dumb sham (seriously, that’s the entire overriding message of the game and the last level in particular, how easy it is to game a democratic system). It’s also one of the most bizarre looking things you’ll ever see, which is just icing on the cake. Top tier soundtrack and voice acting. Okay gameplay. One of the exceedingly… Read more »
Thanks, lads, for the look into the inscrutable.
Ever since I saw Galaxia on an Atari, played on a tv in 1977, I wanted a game.
Sadly, still no- but now, I kinda get it.
(And yeah, Final Fantasy the Movie was fantastic. The detail! Her eyes, her hair, at the end!
I snuck in at a theatre, jumping between movies, near the Bronx I think.)
Was thinking someone might mention ol’ Xenosaga as I have an (old) review on my never-updated blog:
https://www.toadlickgames.com/xenosaga-iii/
TDLR: I was torn on this as the super-larger than life setting was more “Star Wars” than actual Star Wars: bigger sets, bigger characters, etc. The ending though was a train wreck (where half the train cars just disappeared).
To your point though, if dialog, sets, characters, etc are enough to make a movie “art” then the Xenosaga games are art on steroids since there’s a metric ton of that stuff in there.
Sons of Liberty is still my favorite Metal Gear. I haven’t finished playing Phantom Pain; I’m probably a fourth of the way through it, but it’s so vast that I might not ever finish.
For video games as art, one cannot forget Ocarina of Time, which is perhaps the most perfectly balanced game ever made. That, and the Metroid Prime series.